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View Full Version : Should Europe do a real Tornado IDS replacement?


keesje
12th Feb 2009, 22:36
Hi folks

it seems to me the Eurofighter is not the perfect aircraft for replacing the Tornado's in the mid range strike and long patrol missions.

The US seem to have an upcoming requirement to replace the aging Strike Eagle that appears to be a flying mirror with regard to radar cross section and manufacturers are pitching bomber version of the F22 and F23.

There was a photo of a FB23 desk model somewhere that I did a quick & dirty cut out on and recoloured it.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/FB-22.jpg?t=1234481091

Shouldn't Europe work on something like this : real supercruise with a serious load, real stealth, a lot of range, two man cockpit for demanding missions..

The Typhoon can do nifty turns and climb fast, but isn't that what was needed 20 yrs ago? A NG Tornado IDS successor seems more usefull in todays / tomorrows world.

Occasional Aviator
12th Feb 2009, 23:14
Looks a bit like the TSR2..... Isn't there a petition about that somewhere?

advocatusDIABOLI
13th Feb 2009, 06:41
'Europe' Balls'ed up the Tonka, and then, after many delays the 'Tiffy'. Maybe the days of the European Tri / Quad 'Fighter by commitee' days are over........ I hope.

Advo

barnstormer1968
13th Feb 2009, 07:53
You took some similar words out of my mouth there. The front end does look very TSR2 ish, But I also wondered whether the shape behind the two glazed areas was an inflight refueling receptacle, or maybe an auto astro navigation hatch stolen from an SR71.

Hmmm with F22 wings, TSR2 front and SR71 astro gear, maybe this is the FB22 "borrowed bomber", in which case it would be just perfect for the British:ok:

Edited to add: It's dirty due to the British government insisting on a UK engine fit, which never quite worked.

Ian Corrigible
13th Feb 2009, 13:01
Does Warton still have the manned FOAS mock-up from the late '90s? I remember thinking that the bomb-bay appeared large enough to accommodate a couple of daisy cutters...:E

I/C

keesje
13th Feb 2009, 14:03
Looks a bit like the TSR2..... Isn't there a petition about that somewhere?

Does it really ?

http://www.suchoj.com/andere/TSR2/images/TSR2_13.jpg

Probably not a lot of fuel in that wings & definetely no stealth..

I wonder if investing more billions in the Eurofighter is a real good idea, from an operational / strategical standpoint.

Put a decent AESA radar in existing Eurofighters and invest in a Tornado IDS mission capable aircraft might be a better solution for the next 25 yrr I think.

Tyres O'Flaherty
13th Feb 2009, 15:26
Ahh b****x to all that.

Just imagine how many Mossies you could re-engineer fo' a fraction of that :}

Lyneham Lad
13th Feb 2009, 17:48
Just imagine how many Mossies you could re-engineer fo' a fraction of that...and just how small the radar return from all that plywood. So there we have it - a budget NG IDS, totally suited for our cash-strapped excuse for a nation :ugh:

keesje
17th Feb 2009, 11:58
The picture in the first post in actually a FB-23 rather the a FB-22.

The FB-22 looks more like this :

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2004-04/16/xinsrc_5604011514436062225280.jpg

I'm wondering if the European airforces will be able to field a strike aircraft that will not be "one step behind at service entry" but not cheap...

keesje
27th Jun 2016, 09:48
It seems at least the Germans are clear about the fact the Eurofighter is a good interceptor and great dogfighter but not a Tornado IDS replacement.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=67469

"Airbus Defence & Space is eyeing a potential opportunity for European industry to develop a next-generation combat aircraft to replace the German air
force’s Panavia Tornado fleet post-2030."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-studying-manned-successor-for-german-tornados-426634/

glad rag
27th Jun 2016, 10:07
Manned aircraft :hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:

hunterboy
27th Jun 2016, 10:09
In light of the Brexit vote, I guess we could start asking what would we use a Tornado replacement for? I understand the need for Typhoon to defend the motherland/fatherland, but Tornado?
In light of the fact that we are about to be shat on from a great height by our European "allies", it may be a good time to start winding our necks in re:expeditionary warfare and sticking our noses in other people's wars. Spend the money on the Reserves and build up a decent "Home Guard".
You never know, it may stop the likes of Blair et al from volunteering our boys to lose lives and limbs over meaningless bondu thousands of miles away.


Apologies for the thread drift.....

Heathrow Harry
27th Jun 2016, 10:17
but how are the OUTS going to rebuild the Empire without a Strike Force?

ORAC
27th Jun 2016, 11:49
We didn't have any the first time round........

Pontius Navigator
27th Jun 2016, 12:07
Hunterboy, I had that thought too before I read your post.

Davef68
27th Jun 2016, 14:48
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/

Interesting to see if Brexit affects this

Buster15
28th Jun 2016, 11:38
Not sure what is meant by Europe ..... Tonka. Having worked on the programme some time ago, it was very evident that the Germans were and still are extremely proud of this aircraft and its capabilities. They have been very clever in the way that they developed their fleet and as a consequence intend to operate it up to 2040. Compare this with the RAF who seemingly cannot wait to scrap it and its un-doubted capabilities in favour of the new 5th Generation toy. I note that in a recent statement, the MoD said that the 10 Tornado's operating against IS have been responsible for over 60% of ALL recce and intellegence gathering. There is so much more to Tornado than a simple bomb truck and Italy and Saudi intend to operate their jets till 2025. In my experience, Germany and Italy brought a huge technical input to the success of this highly under-rated jet. It is difficult to see that any similar future development programme would be any less successful (is that the right word) than F35.

Heathrow Harry
28th Jun 2016, 15:03
well the F-35 buy may be another casualty of OUT

Kitbag
30th Jun 2016, 17:35
Buster, I'm not so sure the RAF 'seemingly cannot wait to scrap it and its un-doubted capabilities in favour of the new 5th Generation toy' More likely the RAF have flown the ar$e$ off their Tornados since GW 1 (over 25 years continuous operations in the ME). Some aircraft are approaching twice the original design life (8000 hours vice 4000) and any further life extension would be very/prohibitively expensive.

Cows getting bigger
30th Jun 2016, 17:59
Does Warton still have the manned FOAS mock-up from the late '90s? I remember thinking that the bomb-bay appeared large enough to accommodate a couple of daisy cutters..

You mean this?

http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BAE-Replica1.jpg

Rengineer
5th Jul 2016, 19:52
...in the current political climate, but not sure they will. And there's always hope the climate may improve again.

The Airbus rendering looks nice enough, but the days when Germany developed its own fighter aircraft independently are long gone. Unless they can somehow define a common platform for that and the Japanese F3 long-range fighter, and maybe one other medium sized country's needs, I don't see how they could make enough of them to build a business case on.

Buster15
6th Jul 2016, 11:20
The reason I said that the RAF although more likely the UK MoD could not wait to scrap their GR4's is that this decision has been taken primarily based upon a previous 2010 SDSR decision that the RAF would only operate 2 fast jets. This has since been confirmed to me in a reply letter from a Defence MP. You are probably quite right about them being very highly utilised during the 25 + years on overseas deployments. Doesn't this prove the point. Nevertheless, the previous Tornado OSD was 2025 and this must have taken account of aircraft life usage. While I can see some logic in the 2 fast jet types, retiring your 'go to' attack & reconnaisance jet well before Typhoon and more importantly F35 have taken on and demonstrated their full operational capability (intelligence gathering included) still seems to me to be over optimistic. Time will tell........

KenV
7th Jul 2016, 13:52
Has anyone considered a B-21 (LRSB) as a possible Tonka replacement? Its bigger than a Tonka, but not much more so. Its totally optimized for the deep penetrating strike role and generally considered a "medium" bomber and not a heavy like the B-1 and B-2. Of course that assumes Uncle Sam will be willing to export it.

PDR1
7th Jul 2016, 15:33
Of course that assumes Uncle Sam will be willing to export it.

More to the point it assumes the UK could afford it, which I don't think we could come even vaguely close to doing.

PDR

Royalistflyer
7th Jul 2016, 16:49
What of Taranis, we seem to have a flying model that is a proof of concept. Enlarged? Piloted? Tornado replacement developed from the concept. A lot of work has already been done towards such a possibility. What I don't know is anything about its performance and whether the aerodynamics allow for serious performance increase.

KenV
8th Jul 2016, 15:25
More to the point it assumes the UK could afford it, which I don't think we could come even vaguely close to doing.Good point. However, it would seem that it would probably be far cheaper to buy an existing "expensive" airplane, than to design, develop, test and put in production a clean sheet "cheap" airplane.

KenV
8th Jul 2016, 15:44
What of Taranis, we seem to have a flying model that is a proof of concept. Enlarged? Piloted? Taranis is pretty small, roughly the size of a Hawk and powered by the same 10,000 lb thrust Adour engine. Scaling it up would be a major undertaking and putting a crew in it would also require a huge effort. Putting advanced sensors and targetting systems in it and then integrating them with each other and with advanced weapons would be a huge effort. Most of the time, effort, and cost of developing a modern military strike aircraft is not in the airframe, but in the integrated systems it contains and the display systems that format the data and provide it to the crew for action.

Lonewolf_50
8th Jul 2016, 16:20
Most of the time, effort, and cost of developing a modern military strike aircraft is not in the airframe, but in the integrated systems it contains and the display systems that format the data and provide it to the crew for action. Not to mention the :mad:ing software. As more aircraft go FBW, this will only become a larger challenge. (Am still waiting with some concern over the further findings of the AW609 and the recent Bell 525 crashes, as both are FBW systems that were in development ... not mature systems). FBW in fixed wing aircraft seems to me a mature capability ... but each incremental improvement may run into that problem of asymptotic curves on improvements realized.

EAP86
8th Jul 2016, 19:55
Taranis is small but that's because it was scaled down to match the engine thrust. I'm afraid I've never heard of a 10,000 lb thrust Adour; something around 8000 from memory.

EAP