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matblack
12th Feb 2009, 21:35
Sorry if this is going over old ground. I was departing this evening and asked the stewardess quietly if we would be de-icing due to a large area of the upper wing being coated in frost. She looked at it and in fairness went and advised the captain and then came back to advise me that it was only frost from refuelling. I know this is the cold soak frost but you do hear lots of reports claiming that the wing should be clean no matter what. I was also mindful of the incident with the SAS aircraft in which ice from the cold soak broke off and damaged both of the tail engines. Is the EMB145 ok in this instance, should I have stayed quiet? I took a photo just before taxiing
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35353610@N04/3274582841/

FE Hoppy
12th Feb 2009, 21:57
Your picture quite clearly shows a wing that should have been de-iced.

I recommend you send the picture along with the flight details to the ops department of the airline concerned asking for an explanation of why the captain chose to depart like that and the excerpt from the company ops manual that allowed it.

Shocking. There is no excuse for this. You were absolutely correct to raise this and please do so again. I would have asked to get off.

TheCosmicFrog
13th Feb 2009, 00:53
I'm not able to view the picture. Could you link me to the picture wherever it's hosted? :)

triton140
13th Feb 2009, 02:17
The link is .....

DSC00041 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35353610@N04/3274582841/)

Mansfield
13th Feb 2009, 02:35
I would concur with Hoppy. You really can't let this kind of thing slide; the next time somebody might get hurt. It might be best to attempt a contact with the airline safety department.

EMB170
13th Feb 2009, 07:52
I would never defend anybody who departs with icing on the wing , but my question would be, what was the outside temperature when that happened.
`
I have been flying this type of aircraft for some years but have never seen icing on top of the wing, due to cold soak(fuel below zero, but outside above zero, otherwise it would be frost rather than cold soak).
Underneath the wing on many occasions and if it is reasonably warm, say above 10c and you try to do a quick turn around , ridges of ice will form very rapidly.

Maybe it was condensation and if not, you should definitly report this incident to the company and maybe to the CAA , but would definitly find out first what temperature it was.

Merchant Banker
13th Feb 2009, 08:01
Did you see the Captain do his pre flight inspection? I fly this type also and have never seen frost due to cold soak on the top of the wing, underneath regularly and obviously. Check the OAT as advised above, personally it looks like condensation to me. I cannot imagine why they would want to depart knowingly with a contaminated upper surface.

Love_joy
13th Feb 2009, 18:32
If that was indeed frost, and not condensation, that aircraft should not have dispatched.

The E145, like many other aircraft, is tolerant to frost on the underside of the wing but not on the upper surface.

The vast majority of a wings lift is generated from the upper surface. Ice, frost and other contaminates disturb the airflow over the wing surface and change its characteristics. This can have a dramatic effect on the stalling profile of the aircraft - and never for the better.

Hotel Uniform Yankee
13th Feb 2009, 18:48
Which airline/airport was this at. I would think it is just condensation. Cold fuel soak is normally just underneath the wing.

matblack
13th Feb 2009, 21:38
Thanks for the replies. I don't wish to disclose the airline/airport just in case it is condensation as you suggest. I didn't see a walk round but I don't think we would have seen it as we arrived by bus on a remote stand.I do take this flight regularly and always take 12A and I've never seen this on the wing. It was clearly white and during the take off roll it remained undisturbed. The plane climbed without any issue although it was only around 50% full. Driving to the airport there were intermittent heavy snow/sleet showers with frequent cloud breaks. By the time we boarded darkness had fallen and we had clear skies with no clouds. It felt very cold but I couldn't accurately state the temperature. When we landed in clearly much warmer conditions (+5 degC in the car) then you could only see moisture drops on the wing that is normal. To me it looked exactly like the frost that begins to appear on your car when the temperature drops below freezing late on a clear evening. The pilot told the stewardess that it was frost due to recent refuelling which she relayed to me. Although not necessarily relevant I was also a little surprised that the pilot didn't make any type of welcome announcement or any other announcement either before during or after the flight although I suppose he's not obliged to do so.

Mad (Flt) Scientist
13th Feb 2009, 21:38
The problem with saying "it just looks like condensation" is that the original poster reports that the stweardess told him it was "frost" from defuelling.

That implies, if correctly stated, that the captain told her it was frost. And if he knew (thought) he had frost on the upper surface and didn't deice ...:ugh:

galaxy flyer
13th Feb 2009, 22:32
MfS


And that never ends nicely, does it??

GF

Mad (Flt) Scientist
13th Feb 2009, 23:01
No.

And from this info:
When we landed in clearly much warmer conditions (+5 degC in the car)

So it was below 5 C at origin, and likely below 0.

That means that even if the frost were cold fuel driven, and even if you were allowed "fuel frost" there, most allowances for frost due to cold fuel don't apply - because you can't know that it's not environmental frost, rather than fuel frost.

Oh, and I agree with FE Hoppy. I would have refused to fly, if I couldn't have got the crew to do something. (And arguably its my legal duty to do something - I'd hate to quietly walk off an aircraft I knew was unsafe, or likely to be unsafe, without warning anyone, and have it subsequently crash. Never mind the moral issues, I'm sure there are jurisdictions where I'd be flirting with a manslaughter charge of some kind)

Deep and fast
17th Feb 2009, 23:19
Had the same type of upper surface wing ice 2day in CPH. It was over a smaller area, but it was upper wing ice. The flap and wing surface above the spar can maintain cold soak causing ice in these regions causing ice where the dew point temp is above temp of surfaces.

Answer for us was de ice. Tactile test sorts the problem of de ice or not de ice. Wouldn't judge on the the instance in question becouse I was not there.

I think descent profile on the inbound sector would have an effect also. Continuous descent at idle down to the marker will reduce the chance for the airframe to warm in the lower levels from -60deg in the cruise.

Deep and Fast :8

Only place I like ice is in a Gin and Tonic :p

howflytrg
19th Feb 2009, 16:30
Tis is clearly moisture!!!!! it looks identical to rime icing and its ontop of the wing not the leading edge!! which is where rime icing forms!! now what were the conditions outside interms of met at the time??? are we 10degC or above and with a tempnear the dewpoint?? if so dew/moisture will form! if it has not stuck to th wing it is not ice....its H2O in liquid form........should we de-ice in 12degC and it is raining???? if the capt has done the walk-around during turnaround he/she would hav seen this clearly and touched it to see if was or was not ice. buy the way......its nowhere near the fuel cells!


i would also like to add...........dont think twice.....deice!

zapo
19th Feb 2009, 21:00
Adrian

You may want to check you've uploaded the right photo next time,taken on march 13th '08?
If u can't even get that right.............

Zapo

matblack
19th Feb 2009, 22:11
The date's wrong because I reset my phone recently and haven't bothered to change the date/time. Today it says it's 20th March 08! I'll probably adjust it at some point.
It was likely to be close to or below 0 degC by the way. Heavy snow showers on the way to the airport a few hours earlier and at the time of boarding the skies were clear and it felt very cold on the way to the plane.
Can't be sure though and so it could be condensation although it didn,t get disturbed at take off speeds.
A friend of mine has checked historical weather for this airport at that time He said the temp. was 0 degC and the dew point was -1. Does this mean that it would be water rather than ice?

howflytrg
20th Feb 2009, 09:43
heavy showers a few hours earlier. was the aircraft parked there a few hour earlier??? was there any active frost present??? again your photo from the 13th of march shows condenation and nothing else. if the flight crew concerned did their walkaround they would have spoted this moisture, checked to see if it was frozen or in the process of freezing, and in doing so carry out the check for any need to de-ice. if they needed deicing they would have done it. every one remembers the BHX accident in 2002 and the air floirda in washington.......flight crew are not idiots and are professionals. you are suggesting that they have as much knowledge of flying as you do........which clearly is none.....you are a buisness development manager adrian. i suggest you stick to it.
how many other airlines do you pull this prank on??? does it get you and upgrade when you fly them again?? are you hoping to get an upgrade with this airline?:ugh:

If there was clearly ice and snow and a contaminated wing and i was in your shos that night......i would have stood up in the cabin to make sure the aircraft could not take-off.

matblack
20th Feb 2009, 15:06
Thanks for that reply. Very professional indeed. In answer to your questions, yes I will stick to it, no I have never "pulled this prank" in over 10 years, no I wouldn't anticipate or require an upgrade. I merely questioned something I thought wasn't right and with my university days in mech. eng. covering fluid dynamics I have at least a reasonable degree of understanding on the principles of flight.

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES
20th Feb 2009, 15:26
now now people. I understand where howflytrg is coming from. in this day and age it is all to easy for joe public to complain about something end get the wrong end of the stick. especially when they are not directly involved in a complex operation,such as operating a commercial aircraft. however he still has a right to question what he feels is wrong, even if it turns out that there was nothing wrong in the first place.
If it was frost, from my experience you would have to be as blind as a bat to miss it on a turnaround inspection, and as people have said a tactile test(touching the stuff) would very quickly and easily solve the "is it frost or condensation" debate that appears to be going on here.
I personally have had many experiences of moisture on the wing that has not been disturbed during the take off role......especially noticeable on summer mornings in europe. Just because the temp was low does'nt mean it was frost. there are too many factors at play eg aircraft skin temp/fueltemp etc. One does need to be careful about making accusations though. its a tougth call and im sure if you did write in it would be investigted professionally and not left to a pprune court to decide.

INKJET
20th Feb 2009, 16:07
Having flown the ERJ for several thousand hours i am fairly certain its not cold soak fuel that is causing the misting seen in your photo, it could be condensation or frost.

Some years ago i was travelling from ABZ on a BA Jetstream and due to a BA computer fault the flight was delayed by 2 hours it was early April clear sky and around 6pm, the crew had been on the aircraft with ducted air keeping them nice and warm, it was clear from my seat towards the rear that frost had formed on the wings, i wasn't sure if they were planning to be de-iced or not, anyway the door closed, so i showed the CC my ID and asked to speak to the Captain before he started the engines re a flight safety issue. I advised him of what i could see and he contacted the ground engineer who did finger tactile test on the wings and then told the Captain it would need to be de-iced!!

When i sat down the pax next to me enquired as to what had taken place and asked what i would have done if it hadn't been checked or de-iced, i told him i would have got off.

I have no problem with any passenger raising a safety concern, yes 9 times out of ten they will be wrong, but there have been cases where spolier pannel have detached in flight, at the end of the day its another pair of fresh eyes and not some that are half a sleep and seeing what they expect to see.

matblack
21st Feb 2009, 00:05
BBG

Yes, I can also see where he's coming from and I can understand that he resents a passenger asking a question of a pilot. I did take the steps to report it to the airline and yes there was an immediate response from the flight safety dept. The only reason that I reported it to the airline is that I genuinely believe it was frost & the pilot response to the CC (relayed to me) was to confirm it as frost but he chose to take off anyway. Why didn't he confirm it as condensation if that's what it was?

postman23
22nd Feb 2009, 17:19
matblack i think youve found the crew on that flight :hmm:

inkjet with frost you get an more even spread over the wing. Cold soak does not affect the metal, meaning the spar and stringers across the chord. Looks like cold soak to me.

Just because things don't go wrong doesn't mean that everything was alright. Snobby passengers who know it all are not appreciated but a genuine question relating to a safety concern is always welcome. Any 'professional' not being able to deal with that is your true amateur.

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES
28th Feb 2009, 21:38
ok here it is the one and only guess the contamination quiz for the oh so educated on this forum :ugh:

fingers on the buzzers and fastest finger gets nothing.

would you dispatch with this on your wing??

DSC00039 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35872301@N02/3316585775/in/photostream/)

here it is from seat 12A

DSC00037 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35872301@N02/3317411504/in/photostream/)

i'll let you know what it is after a few have had a go.

big hint......its the same stuf as in matblack...( i know more about flying/met/airlaw/performance than any pilot because i went to university and also read pprune)'s photo earlier on!

Mad (Flt) Scientist
28th Feb 2009, 21:44
Well, if it's the same stuff as a PIC told a CC (and then told a pax) was frost, then on the assumption that he conducted a thorough inspection, as required, then logically it's frost.

Without even looking at the photos.

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES
28th Feb 2009, 21:47
arrr but the pic never told the cc it was frost. . he (matblack) wanted to hear frost and got it. or so he thought. gotta love confirmation bias......maybe he tell us all about that too :}

matblack
28th Feb 2009, 22:34
The incident has been investigated by the airline concerned. I feel satisfied that I did the right thing in reporting it. No upgrades, just a letter thanking me for my report. Just as it should be. On a seperate note I was flying back from GOT a couple of days ago and noticed that the crew came and checked the wing for ice after we had been waiting for 20 minutes in freezing conditions for some transit passengers. Very reassuring. Different airline different airport to the previous incident. Same aircraft, similar weather.

BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES
28th Feb 2009, 23:24
good for the airline concerned......the crew were indeed interviewed and frankly you now look like a muppet. if you really were sure that was ice you would have ensured, like anyone who knows having ice in the wing is a bad thing, that the aircraft did not take-off......but wait you did'nt. Whist i wasn't a crew member concerned and close frend was. hence why i took the photos to how what condensation on the wing surface loks like. and they were taken at DUS at a sinilar time as your flight and having seen the atis for the time your flight left and ours did they are very nearly identical.....okay QNH 2 hpa higher and wind 5 knots more but still the same direction. and temp identcal.so there you have it matblack look and learn....no not frost......condensation. good for the GOT crew they were in freezing conditions and did a separate check. but then we are taking into account a passengers idea of freezing conditions. a nippy wind isn't freezing conditions. would you like to personally see the tech log each flight?.....make sure you are happy with all the ADD's

I've told my friend he should look into a lawsuit for deformation of character. as you did post it for all on pprune and its not difficult to see who flys the route and who has what equiptment on it. But then i freely admit i'm not a lawer and have'nt the slightest clue what i'm talking about. oh and being told you are under investigation by your airline....even if it is by a passenger getting the wrong end of the stick is a rather stressful time. thankfully now the airline knows both pilots did their job and met all safety requirements and they are free to carry on with their careers.

Midland63
2nd Mar 2009, 01:37
@ BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES - I really hope I never get on a plane you're the pilot of - Frightening.

Edit - I am a lawyer (not a pilot) and it's defamation not deformation!

john_tullamarine
2nd Mar 2009, 05:24
Sometimes nervous passengers see something they don't like the look of and come up with some utter garbage when they relay their concerns to crew.

As could be said of any of us in circumstances outside our competence.

Surely the main aim should be to encourage the cabin folk to pass on the concern, have it evaluated and then, most importantly, provide feedback to the passengers to allay the fears. Consider that, if one passenger saw whatever, others did also .. a PA is probably the best way to put it to bed.

I am reminded of an example years ago on a flight to a holiday destination. The majority of the passengers were first timers (this via cabin crew feedback along the way). At destination, the weather was probably going to require a diversion from the minima. As the workload during the latter part of cruise was low, I made a descriptive PA, including what would happen during a missed approach and what the folk would hear, etc. As it turned out we got in OK but there was a fair bit of positive feedback via the cabin crew in respect of passenger calmed nerves.

Apologies
3rd Mar 2009, 14:23
So BBB, now we know it was XXX.....

from your Flicker pics we can tell that you took the pics on a Sony Ericsson W910i at 1855 on 22/02/09 (Flickr: More detail about DSC00039 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35872301@N02/3316585775/meta/in/photostream)).

Using ogimet (Formulario para peticion de mensajes aeronauticos (http://www.ogimet.com/metars.phtml.en)) we can compare for ourselves the met at 1850z on the 12th and the 22nd:

SA 12/02/2009 18:50-> METAR EDDL 121850Z 29006KT CAVOK 01/M02 Q1020 NOSIG=

SA 22/02/2009 18:50-> METAR EDDL 221850Z 30007KT 9999 SCT011 BKN040 07/06 Q1021
NOSIG=

Well, well!

to quote BBB

"they were taken at XXX at a sinilar time as your flight and having seen the atis for the time your flight left and ours did they are very nearly identical.....okay QNH 2 hpa higher and wind 5 knots more but still the same direction. and temp identcal.so there you have it matblack look and learn....no not frost......condensation."

Anyone spot the significant difference? Temp on 12th 1 deg C, temp on 22nd 7 deg C. Frost not possible on the 22nd, frost quite likely on the 12th.....

You say you work for the same company that treated Mat with respect, yet you yourself show him no respect whatsoever. Your tone and lack of integrity are disgraceful.

Perhaps Mat could tell us the name of the carrier so that someone can figure out the relationship between Howflytrg, BBB and the crew involved. Anyone care to put any money on them all being the same chap/chappess?

Prefer no airline/airport identification, please .. not really necessary to the thread's progress - JT

postman23
4th Mar 2009, 15:06
id rather depart late and have pax come up to me and tell me what their issue is than departing on time and missing something for whatever reason.
this 'we are all pros' bs is such a load of crap. every instance where pilot error was a factor was handled by 'pros'. calling yourself a pro in a serious context (ie not the bar) is just sad.
catch me if you can was a movie playing in the 60s. get real.

matblack
4th Mar 2009, 16:28
I personally feel as though this thread has run its course now. The original post in the Tech Forum was to ask a question about something I was concerned about. Following advice from this forum I then contacted the airline. At all stages on pprune I was very careful not to state the airline or the airport as I did not feel it was relevant as you can see in my posts. I also feel that the airline involved were very professional and prompt in their reply to me. I think its now time the moderator closed down this particular thread.

FE Hoppy
4th Mar 2009, 19:50
Well done MatBlack for having the courage to bring this up at the time and on here and to the airline. Please do the same if you ever have a doubt in future.

and as for BBB and his BBBBull about the weather. SHAME ON YOU!!