Q For 39 Sqn or anybody at Creech AB

[ControllerTacko]

Hi,

If you are either on or have recently been on 39 Sqn or working with the UAV component at Creech I'd appreciate being able to PM you a few questions. There have been some interesting developments in the OSB!

Cheers

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Might know a man who can. Check PM

[dilly]

I dunno if there is any truth in the matter but the word on the street is that the role of Reaper Pilot has been opened up to the OSB - any ideas?? Does that mean that there will be a mass exodous from places like Boulmer and Waddington as the "3rd man in the cockpit" fraternity try to get closer to being stick monkeys??

[PPRuNeUser0211]

A conversation I had yesterday with the station education chappy (in charge of distributing such career building gen) seemed to indicate they've opened the doors to everyone. Not seen the particular email in person though.

[escapee]

Seen the letter. Some Navs first but will open to ground branch officers. They will do approx 20 to 30 hrs tutor then 85 hrs Tucano simulator. Decision on flying pay and brevet not made. Officers only, no slots for NCA!

[Lima Juliet]

I also understand it's just a trial - just like the FC in the back of F3 in the 90s (he unfortunately didn't make it either).

I guess we'll wait for the results over the next few months before the bigger decision is made. The USAF are already doing it and some are NCOs see Are enlisted airmen next to pilot UAVs? - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/12/airforce_enlisted_uas3_122108/)

Changing times...

LJ:ok:

[L J R]

You are joking right?,,,.....words fail me!

[Chris Kebab]

No, no he's not.

They did quite often get an F-3 flying during the 90's. Used to sometimes see a pair.:ok:

[Doctor Cruces]

Can I have a go too? I'm a whizz on MSFS!!!!! AND I'm ex 39 too, that should bump me up the queue a bit.

Doc C

:ugh::ugh:

[Gainesy]

YouTube - Air Force Baby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XFmpo_QATA)

:)

[ControllerTacko]

Gen is out and about if you have a search!!

[Renee the Levitator]

Anybody know where I could find this info? With only 2 computers available on the Sqn because of the ongoing virus, it is difficult to find a terminal to do the very basic of admin!

[goatmanni]

Too late - the window closed on 6 Feb.

[Renee the Levitator]

Hmmmmmmm. Strange. Think I'll do some digging anyway..............

[airwaverider]

Apparently they are down to the final shortlist now, with the ones with not enough experience told thanks but no thanks!!

[dilly]

Any idea if the droves of FCs were successful in being shortlisted?

[airwaverider]

Only 2 to my knowledge.

[monkey88]

If any one wants any info you can PM me. I am drinking beer in my pool as we speak.

[LateArmLive]

Doesn't your laptop get wet?

[Lima Juliet]

An anouncement has been made then... Gamers to fly drones over Afghanistan (http://www.prisonplanet.com/gamers-to-fly-drones-over-afghanistan.html)

[bombedup6]

From Mail on Sunday. P29

Pilots without full combat training are to fly frontline missions in a major break with RAF tradition.
Top Gun-style airmen will be replaced by relatively inexperienced personnel controlling ‘drone’ aircraft flying sensitive surveillance missions over Afghanistan.
Unmanned Reaper planes – which also carry laser-guided bombs and air-to-ground missiles to engage targets they spot – are currently flown by remote-control by highly trained fighter pilots 8,000 miles away in Nevada.
But RAF chiefs last week approved a money-saving plan to use ‘lower grade’ staff after 30 hours’ basic flying training – rather than those who have undergone the £4million fighter pilot programme.
‘We don’t necessarily need highly trained pilots,’ said Wing Commander Richard McMahon.
Studies show the best drone crews are often young video-game players rather than experienced combat air crews

[gpn01]

With RPV's being used ever more, wasn't it inevitable that at some point the bean counters would realise that you don't need highly paid professional personnel to operate a video game ? That's not meant as a sleight to those who do it in the real world and I'm only too aware of the potential consequences of handing over 'control' of weaponry in this way. At an RSI lecture in 2007 the CTO of iRobot Corp (who supply Uncle Sam with robots) observed that kitting out their robot control units in Afghanistan with Playstation-type consoles increased user adoption amongst the young recruits and decreased their training requirement.....press the red button for the cannon, etc..

When UAV's become truly autonomous we won't even need people to control them. Be able to simply issue a task and the device will go and execute it. Terminator and Skynet may be closer than we imagined!

[TheInquisitor]

Studies show the best drone crews are often young video-game players rather than experienced combat air crews

I would like to see these so-called 'studies' - I'd also like to see people stop referring to Reaper as a 'Drone', since it is anything but. Even the term 'Unmanned' is streching things, since the system is very much 'manned' - just because the crew isn't physically in the aircraft does not mean that they can be downgraded or even dispensed of altogether.

The most critical component of any aircraft remains the human brain, and this is just as true of 'unmanned' ac as it is of fast jets. Take that away, or 'downgrade' it, and you severely downgrade the platform's capability. Reaper is utilised in exactly the same way as any manned platform, and thus requires crewing by people who know what they are doing. Whilst somebody with minimal flying training may well be able to cope, given benign conditions, with non-dynamic ISR-type tasking quite well, it is those occasions when things go dynamic and all hell breaks loose, or when the weather is closing in, or you have a complex emergency, where having a fully trained and experienced pilot in the seat will make all the difference.

At an RSI lecture in 2007 the CTO of iRobot Corp (who supply Uncle Sam with robots) observed that kitting out their robot control units in Afghanistan with Playstation-type consoles increased user adoption amongst the young recruits and decreased their training requirement.....press the red button for the cannon, etc..

Well, no sh!t.....give people an intuitive interface that they are familiar with, and their training suddenly becomes alot easier. RPA interfaces are generally NOT intuitive (Reaper / Predator's certainly isn't) - largely a function of the fact they are designed by computer geeks, not aircrew. It is a hell of a leap to take these facts and proclaim that 'gamers will beat real aircrew' - doing so betrays a complete lack of understanding of how the system works and is used.

This trial of 'non-aircrew' (and it IS just a TRIAL) has been completely misrepresented in the media, and, sadly, amongst our own too. It is, at this stage, a feasibility study to asess how a seperate 'UAV Pilot' career stream might work. Nothing more, nothing less. And they will not be completely 'non-aircrew' - they will have to demonstrate an ability to fly a manned ac to the RAFs satisfaction, before they will be allowed anywhere near Reaper.

Please, gents, and journos, STOP comparing Reaper, and similar systems, to video games - you are simply showing your ignorance. Those of us who operate it on a daily basis know it is anything but. And trust me when I tell you that we are a long, LONG way away from a completely autonomous system that can deal with dynamic tasking the way that Reaper and Predator can. It is not the system itself that makes the difference - it's the man operating it.

[Lima Juliet]

Inquisitor

Well said Sir! :D

[Backwards PLT]

The Inquisitor

What he said. Who are you anyway?

:ok:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

An anouncement has been made then... Gamers to fly drones over Afghanistan (http://www.prisonplanet.com/gamers-to-fly-drones-over-afghanistan.html)

I honestly can't see what the problem is. If a spotty geek can fly it from the ground what's the big issue? I think it's called progress.

[L J R]

Bunk,

Clearly, you have NO idea what a Reaper does, how it is employed, the significance of a 'large' payload of weapons and singularly - primarily & most importantly - what CLOSE AIR SUPPORT involves!

[Spotting Bad Guys]

The question about the skillsets required is an interesting point. I can't speak for the Pred/Reaper pilots but I was a Sensor Operator Instructor on the USAF Predator OCU (that'll give away my handle). We primarily got two sorts of students through the OCU: ab-initio Image Analysts straight out of the IA school, and SNCO re-treads at the MSgt level.

In general, the young students had excellent motor skills and hand-eye co-ordination, and were able to track moving vehicles without too much effort. However, they were prone to being completely target-fixated and often lacked the SA or capacity to support the pilot (i.e. listening to radio calls, monitoring the aircraft's flight path, clearance etc).

The older chaps tended to have a much harder time with control of the payload, learning menu switchology and general familiarity with a poor HMI / multiple screen environment. However, their SA was much better than the youngsters, theit CRM was better, they were far calmer in dynamic situations and A-G weapons engagement.

We've chosen to adopt a different model than the USAF for Reaper in that our SOs are all WSOs and WSOps. It's interesting that of the two seats the RAF has chosen to trial ground branches in the pilot seat! (no bitterness, I'm not going back to 39 Sqn anyway.....).

The USAF also tried to create a UAS Career Field (17XX if I recall correctly) and were using a pilot withdrawn from fully airborne duties for medical reasons as a test case. He arrived just as I was heading back to the UK but I heard in his case it didn't go too well.

The Inquisitor has hit the nail on the head; the Reaper (and Pred for that matter) are designed to be flown, having pilot in the left hand seat enables you to do all sorts of things you couldn't do with an autonomous vehicle or 'point and click' type interface. This is not a knock at the H450/WK crowd, merely an statement of fact.

LJR According to PJHQ, Reaper (UK) is 'armed ISTAR' rather than CAS (as per the USAF employment) but it can of course, do both...:ok:

Cheers

SBG

[Lurking123]

An interesting discussion. It was inevitable that with the advent of UAVs questions would be asked about the necessary skill sets. No one could question the need for an operational (warfighting?) mentality. However, it is only reasonable to ask whether the finely honed piloting skills acquired over a number of years on various aircraft types are still necessary. Of course, from a military perspective, it is not that easy to identify the line between learning how to fly an aircraft and how to operate an aircraft.

Personally, I think it only reasonable that the military explore the requirements for UAV pilots/operators. To merely shove a load of GR1 pilot/navs in the job because that is the easiest thing to do is not necessarily forward thinking. What's the current mantra - continuous improvement?

[L J R]

Thanks for clearing my misconception Spotter, cheers.