Robinson R44 Cockpit fire in flight (what if..)

[rderham]

I have just done my LPC and as always when flying with a more experienced pilot, very much enjoyed the nuggets of knowledge passed onto me, in this case from the examiner. One of the discussions we had was how best to deal with a major electrical fire in the cockpit when solo at relatively high level (say, 7000ft AGL). The two main elements of this conversation were; how to get the aircraft onto the ground as rapidly as possible and; is it possible to successfully tackle the fire using the fire extinguisher on the way down. The discussion included comparing Vne min power decent against autorotation and the necessity to take a deep breath before discharging the extinguisher! I thought it was an interesting brain strainer and that I would throw it out to the forum for comments on the subject!

[windowseatplease]

7000 feet agl in an r44? What's the point in that?!

[firebird_uk]

It's an LPC, everything is hypothetical!

If they couldn't go through various unrealistic scenarios the whole thing would be over in less the 10 minutes and where's the money in that!

[JTobias]

Get it on the deck ASAP,
exit the aircraft,
leave it to burn,
claim on the insurance
laugh all the way to the bank :ok:

Joel

[Lt. Kije]

I agree that if you're too high to see the ground move, you're up in airplane country and those guys can't see. THe possibility of a fire is one of the reasons I like to fly at triple-digit AGL.

But taking a deep breath and trying on your question, I'd:
Autorotate at a high RPM. Autorotation is more stable than powered flight and I may just not be paying as much attention to the rotor-side-up business. High RPM to chop her way down quick. High airspeed for the same reason and to get away from the low end of the power curve. A very slow airspeed would get me down as quick but I'll need the wind to clear the smoke out of the cockpit. If I don't have a passenger in the front seat I'm just not going to be able to reach the extinguisher, so I'd better have one.

The engine is going to keep turning as long as the mag switches don't melt through and ground out, so I can keep the engine running if I choose. If the fire is bad enough I'll kill the fuel valve and plan on running right after touchdown.

Most important is not to panic. The panel will keep the flames contained unless it gets hot enough to ignite aluminum - which it won't, given the temperatures at which wire insulation burns.

[Practice Auto 3,2,1]

If I don't have a passenger in the front seat I'm just not going to be able to reach the extinguisher, so I'd better have one.

Possibly a serious safety issue here? Isn't by default, the place where Robbo put the fire extinguisher on the forward left hand side of the instrument console (i.e. in front of the L/H pax's feet?)

Here in the UK all G Reg A/C have the fire extinguisher mounted below the CB panel which should be in reach of the pilot. This I believe is/was a CAA requirement.

[g0lfer]

An instructor demonstated this to me from 8400 ft. Full left pedal with a lot of right cyclic in autorotation all out of trim makes it drop like a stone. However, don't forget to recover trim before flaring etc!

[helicopter-redeye]

Here in the UK all G Reg A/C have the fire extinguisher mounted below the CB panel which should be in reach of the pilot. This I believe is/was a CAA requirement.

Below the pilot perhaps? who sits on the right hand side. In most 44's I've have ever seen or flown this is the case (easy to kick it getting in too).

The UK CAA like to have the fuel cut off value selected to 'off' for landings when on fire - so the landing has to be autorotative and fast for max RoD for much of the descent.

If the M BATT switch is off (and ALT) then the electrics are off so any blue smoke should clear by venting the cabin.

Main thing, get it on the ground ASAP and keep the cabin clear on smoke (if M BATT = 'off' then no instruments for flying in smokey IMC)

I'm not sure Mike JH Smith's in-flight fire is in the same category - this was a neglegent discharge of a flare not an electrical fire (more white smoke..)

[Mungo5]

The panel will keep the flames contained unless it gets hot enough to ignite aluminum - which it won't, given the temperatures at which wire insulation burns.

Which makes me wonder - who flies in gloves of the leather or nomex variety?

Not because they make you look more ally, but to let you tinker with the knobs when the're 'flamin grilled'

[RVDT]

OK given that it has never happened doesn't say it won't - granted.

Under Type Design the aircraft and it's interior materials are not allowed to be flammable. FAR Part 25??

Anything that is flammable in the cabin was probably put there. Not the manufacturers problem.

In some places the fire extinguisher is not even required.

[topendtorque]

One thing we migfht be overlooking with fire in flight actions is our new GPS/ELT.
We used to be taught for an electrical fire, send mayday, turn off electrics, land asap.
nowadays one does not need to send a mayday esp if the fire is deemed worthy of turning the electrics off immediately, as our new GPS/ELT will send the mayday in a far more secure fashion along with position and aircraft callsign.
Respose will be far quicker and even in many remote areas helicopter help is not far away in hours.
therefore we now have no need to carry survival rations.

if you operate in very reomte regions, well plan accordingly.

I cannot think of one reason why a robinson would fire up in the instrument panel. I have never heard of it and in fact pretty much all old looms are replaced because reasons other than those of causing a fire.
Replacing a loom every third or fourth life is far cheaper than fixing breakdowns out in the boonies.

A regulation that requires you to turn off the fuel prior to landing, is just plain dumb unless it can be established that, it is a fuel fire and that the fuel is actually fuelling the fire.

An electrical fire or oil fire will make no difference with fuel off except make the landing far harder and possibly much more dangerous than it need be. duh.
all of your immediate personal saftey items must be within reach of your hands with your body in its usual strapped in position. The reason for that is simple, is you arrive with a bump big enough to break your back or nearly, you will not be able to bend to reach. one should also practice undoing seat belts with the heal of ones hand just in case a fuel splash has burnt the back of your hand.

[CYHeli]

Don't discharge a fire extinguisher in flight unless you want to create an IMC condition. Spraying white powder everywhere will cling to the screen and you will be blind! Now try to auto! :}

There is a reason (at least it was explained to me in Oz) for the fire extinguisher to be on the pax side, so the pilot can't do it alone. The pilot tells the pax to open the door before firing it off. It's also located a long way forward, watch the C of G move when the pax reaches for it. Also watch the cyclic when the pax does reach forward. We tried this one day and the pax had trouble reaching the extinguisher without hitting the cyclic. As the pax and C of G moved I needed more left rear cyclic. The pax was pushing the cyclic forward. :ugh: We were just practicing a drill and there was no fire.

Action on electrical fire? Land ASAP, then fight the fire (or run).
What can cause it? As was stated above, only after market stuff that's fitted will burn. We had a UHF CB radio fitted for talking to trucks/marine and it shorted out the panel. That's one cause.

[moosp]

Mungo, good point, a lot of people fly with heat resistant gloves. I sometimes fly Robbos with them and do get a few bogger looks but it was the way I was taught by a military man.

He said its difficult to turn off a fire switch or open a door handle with bare hands if they are cherry red with heat...

[Heli-Jock]

Keep it simple. No idea what anyone would be doing at 7000ft in a R22!:confused:
In the event of an electrical fire, im with jtobias on this one, Get it on the deck ASAP,
exit the aircraft,
leave it to burn,
claim on the insurance
laugh all the way to the bank :ok:

Failing that you could always do what it says in the pilots operating handbook.
Master off
Alt switch off
Open vents
Land immediatelly
extinquish fire "WHEN ON GROUND" not in flight as was suggested earlier. One pilot on board at the controls, trying to put out fire with extinguisher while maintaining autorotation!!! Dont think so.:=
HJ

[topendtorque]

I think we should also go back to the original examiner who posed the question and give him (or her) a good "old fashioned" character assasination.

The Q was most likely put to see whether the subject had "problem solving capacity" as part of his make-up before being let loose in an object that oft presents problems out side the loop.

That part is OK, from there he loses it.

1. The only electrical fire i had in flight was indeed in the panel lighting system, in an "old fashioned' aircraft" not a new Robinson.

2. Why implant an auto suggetion in any students head that it may be OK to rumble along at 7000 feet? crazy man.

3 Why implant in a students head that it might be OK to fire off a fire-ex while in flight? Even crazier man, from two point of view, a) unhandling the controls -strictly forbidden, and b) potential lack of visibility.

4. Why suggest a "major" fie? Fires only appear as major well after they have been minor for some time. Is he saying that the student will never have capacity to see an incipient situation or assume that he already has that deficiency?

Who was the goose that would pose questions in an impressionable and inexperienced nubile in such a stupid fashion?

Why not concentrate on the subject's knowledge of the POH (as Heli-jock points out) which is the important part.

As a side issue I have oft noticed that fire-ex's have been fitted to Robinsons AFTER their POH section 6 was completed, and way forward of the Cof G.
We recently talked about C of G problems in R44's, the same applies to R22's so why do it, when C of G is often an issue especially if it cannot be reached without undoing seatbelts.

I congratulate 'rderham' for putting the conversation into a public forum where he may have his puzzlement addressed. Mate , you should have said, 'Why would we be flying at 7000 feet when we are hearing these stories about blade delams?'

Now there's a NEW fashioned problem from outside the loop requiring immediate landing. stuff that!
all the best and know your POH, backwards.
tet

[FairWeatherFlyer]

2. Why implant an auto suggetion in any students head that it may be OK to rumble along at 7000 feet? crazy man.

To stimulate some thought, when might 7000ft be the safest height to be above the surface in a Raven? I can think of at least one answer.

How many pilots understand that there's a maxium RoD? To its credit the AFM does state the reasons for 9000ft agl limit.

Spraying white powder everywhere will cling to the screen and you will be blind!

I find this comment a bit concerning. All the ones i have seen have been Halon, the aviation world has an exemption to still use these non-residue extinguishers because of their effectiveness/relatively low toxicity. Powder belongs elsewhere.

I have been puzzled by the left footwell placement. I have also realised i never check the pressure on the one i fly and don't know how it operates!

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I had an electrical fire in an R22 some years back, I could smell electrics burning and hear cracking / poping noises from behind the instrument console.

I done what it said in the POH;

Master Battery & Alternator both off.

Open the vents and land ASAP.

As soon as the electrics were turned off the cracking poping noises stopted, this obviously took away the source of the fire (Electrics). So its vital to follow the POH by turning off the Master Battery & Alternator and not just land.

I have to admit it was a bit distracting as any real emergency is but as soon as the electrics are turned off the fire will most likely stop so why compound the situation by entering auto.

[topendtorque]

I have been asked to clarify which type of ELT as referred to in Post #12

It is a new 406mhz, and GPS capable. GME Accusat, Model MT410G.

It cost around $au700.00.

The basic model with 406 and 121.5 for homing but without GPS costs about $500.00 so for only an extra couple of hundred bucks the guys in canberra SAR get to see where I am exactly, in about three seconds, courtesy of the GPS capability.

it's a little hand held, a magic device.
Pity it hasn't got a menu for lunch on it as well.

Anyone with the old 121.5 sets only will find that the SAR boys don't and won't know them after Feb 1, 2009. check your machine to see that yours is up to date.

I believe that the OZ fishing fraternity are spitting chips as they all left it too late to buy theirs. There is a back order for their EPIRBs of 7000 sets. Therefore they must stay within 3 miles of the coast until they get the new gadget.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Interesting article on two counts - one is whether powder extinguisher in the cockpit is a good idea / meets local regulations. The other is the additional risk from inadvertent discharge.

Flight Safety Australia - May-June 2006 - pg 20-21. http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2006/jun/20-22.pdf

[coptercop]

Take this link to the thread for the accident:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/363066-robinson-r44-accident-panama-19th-feb-09-3-fatalities.html#post4734722

[Lt. Kije]

"...Which makes me wonder - who flies in gloves of the leather or nomex variety? ..."

Well, I do- alla time. Either nomex with the hospital flightsuit or leather with my fright-instructor kit. When I was a student I started with gloves because my hands sweat (Southern California) and now it just feels funny to not have gloves on while flying. Plus pulling them on reminds me to get my mind into the "pilot" track.