Mod Vs Integrated - A different Question

[skyhighbird]

Before I get shouted at :), I have looked at the big thread regarding MOD vs Intergrated and whilst very interesting, there was one question that I think was not answered in as much detail as I would have liked.

What I want to know is WHY a graduate of an Integrated course is prefered to a MOD graduate - in terms of direct entry.

Fair enough, I only have one example of this and that is from talking with a BA Captain (this was in 2007 mind) who said exactly the above. When I asked why, he simply said that because they receive many apllications, they can afford to pick and chose and their preference is for Integrated. Ok, fair enough. But why??

Hopefully some of you more senior/experienced pilots might know the answer to this.

Cheers Guys

x

[nick14]

I can think of only BA who exclusively take integrated low hours, which is not direct entry.

Some people say because the students progress is well documented, each little section has a relevent test or exam and all come with a written report.

Some say that because the student does ALL the training at one place and in a short space of time that it is of a known quality.

Some say that because they have always taken their low hours from school a they will always take from school a. They have always taken from integrated they will continue to do so type of mentality.

Maybe they have some sort of affinity with a school/course type as they used to run their sponsored cadets through the same course. They had a good experience so they keep going back. After all if it aint broke don't fix it.

On the face of it im not totally sure why BA limit their low hours SSP cadets to integrated, Iv flown with some excellent mods and some not so good integrated but on the other hand I have seen some outstanding integrated and some poor mods.

Swings and roundabouts maybe?

Nick

[I like planes & stuf]

It is because of a well known fact that integrated is better in all circumstances ... :}:}:}:}:}:}:}

[nick14]

Standby for broadside!!:E

[skyhighbird]

"I like Planes and Stuff" - yes very amusing. Whilst I know your response is in jest, i really hope this doesn't go off on a tangent - the old integrated vs mod debate as to who is better.

I'm seriously thinking of re-starting my ambition and it would be good to see what the general consensus is from the more experienced members - possibly those that have been at the top end of recruiting.

The first response was good - but I really want to go as deep as possible into why Integrated is prefered by the likes of BA. Maybe I should have also pointed out that I have heard from other major airlines that Integrated is prefered - however I can't say this with any credibility. It was probably just conjecture from other posters here.

Am I focusing too much on this? Is it really just a simple answer of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? I just can't buy that.

I guess I'm using BA as the example as it is one of the world's leading (favourite!) airlines and if they prefer Integrated students, then I'm more inclined to follow their lead and do an Integrated course- whatever the cost.

Even if I never get an interview with them let alone a job, if a world airline like BA prefer Integrated students, then surely Integrated is the one to go for? (providing you can afford it).

no?
xx

[mad_jock]

Personally I think its because of history more than anything else. And old boy networks.

Years ago the whole of training department were full of integrated graduates. The Chief pilot was either exRAF or Integrated. His exRAF mate used to work at Hamble now works at Oxford. They are from the same background and trust the others opinion. Life is easy if they keep the status quo.

Now the training teams in the regionals are multi national (so don't have a clue about the different types of courses) You have modular Grad chief pilots. The legacy carriers with the expansion needed pilots quickly and took on experienced multi crew pilots of any background. They worked out ok.

Bean counters worked out it was cheaper taking experienced guys off the regionals.

The current phase of mentored schemes etc. I have a sneaky suspicion is all down to a tax benefit. This can only be done easily if the pilot is going through the same organisation and the intergrated schools are set up to do this already. There are a couple of modular setups which can do it also eg CTC.

The airline taking you on gets to offset all your training costs against tax, then gets to pay you a reduced salary thus saving on National insurance contributions as well. And to cap it all off they get to claim the VAT back as well but you don't get to see a penny of that.

So for each cadet going through the system call it 120k including type rating they are looking at clawing back 50-60k in tax and vat. Add in the reduced salary and drop in employers national insurance contributions you have a free pilot for 3 years. And you don't have to pay a penny for it apart from a member of staff to oversee it. There is no risk because you have a get out clause at every point so if things do go sour you can just leave the cadet with the debt.

[nick14]

The chances of getting into BA from an integrated school (OAA as my example) is slim especially at the moment as they only take about 10% of the graduates from OAA a year. They source the rest of their pilots from the other integrated courses and of course DEP.

I wouldn't base your training choice on what you have heard xyz airlines may prefer. Try to base it on your own circumstances both financial and what suits you. Can you take 18months off work, 60k loan, spend 4/5 months in america or are you more suited to distance learning, fly when you can afford to and keep the debt to a minimum.

I chose integrated because it suited my learning style, I work best when im pushing myself with time constraints and goals.

Nick

[G SXTY]

if a world airline like BA prefer Integrated students, then surely Integrated is the one to go for? (providing you can afford it).

Really? Ask yourself why you want to fly for a living. Is it (a) because you love flying, or (b) because you have your heart set on a particular employer (in this case BA). If it's answer (b) beware - I can pretty much guarantee that by the time you have been through all the grief of training, spending many thousands of pounds and sending out countless CVs, you really won't care who you end up flying with. The average wannabe will give anything, do anything for a job with anyone.

Focusing on one particular employer's recruitment policies is a therefore a mistake, IMHO. Take a wider perspective; the four biggest employers of pilots in the UK are BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and Flybe. BA we have discussed, and I believe Mad Jock has hit the nail on the head with them. Ryanair couldn't care less where or how you got your licence, so long as you can pay for their type rating. Easyjet, when they recruit low-hour candidates, have a well established relationship with CTC - which is modular. Flybe have absolutely no preference one way or the other. Not much reason to spend a load of extra cash on an integrated course, is it?

To try and answer your original question, if there is a slight preference in favour of integrated in some quarters, it's because integrated candidates are generally more of a known quantity. The school have seen the person from day one of training, and can give an employer a greater overview of their talents and weaknesses. It's much harder for an airline to assess someone's training record if they have been to the US for their CPL, then back to the UK for an IR which they started with one school and finished with another. You get the point.

However, don't think that having 'integrated' on your CV automatically makes you a better or more attractive candidate. There are some extremely good modular establishments out there with long track records of producing top quality airline pilots. From the horse's mouth at Flybe - "We are very impressed with the quality of the product of X." And it wasn't an integrated school.

[I like planes & stuf]

I notice John Monks is no longer in charge of recruitment at BA according to PPJN (the source of all 100% factually correct info :ok:) and it is now Dave Burrows.

Maybe Mr Burrows trained modular so we could see a change in policy if/when BA reopen their doors?

[demomonkey]

Not sure I agree with Mad_Jock's analysis. From my understanding of 'modern' airline 'sponsorships' (lets call nu-sponsorship!) from my close friends, is they seem to work as follows;

Sponsoring airline gets to select the 'cream of the crop' (let me come back to this statement and qualify it before you flame-mail me) from the population of new students. They then 'commit' (commit does not have same legal meaning as the words promise or contract) to offer the sponsored cadet a job on successful graduation (conditions apply) if there is one available at the time. They then pay for the cadets TR. Result: cost and risk to the airline: low.

The cadet is then paid a reduced salary for X years and they are paid an additional amount through a tax efficient mechanism which means the rate of tax on the additional element is zero or extremely low. This second element is designed to pay back the loan. If you equated this on paper, you would probably find that the cadet would earn less over the X year period than a direct-entry pilot. However, you might find that disposable income wise the two were more on parity.

Ok, 'cream of the crop'. From personal experience I have witnessed that people who pass sponsored selection achieve considerably higher assessment results than general applicants. Whether they are more intelligent or have just practiced more brain improving techniques/games than the majority is debatable! But I have to say, turning up for selection and not having attempted to improve your mental arithmetic or interview skills is just a waste of your own time and puts you further away from your ambition! So if you are going to go for selection, remember the rule of the 6Ps (Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance)!

:ok:

[skyhighbird]

G-Sixty.

Thank you for your input. I really didn't want to make my post sound like I was aiming for BA. You are right, if upon succesful completeion, I would be happy flying rubber dog sh!t out of Hong hong.

I guess my logic was IF a major airline (in this case BA) only recruits for Direct Entry the Integrated Pilots, then other airlines will look to that leading airline and say "Lets do the same. If they are successful, then lets follow that model (for want of a better word)".

But I do understand your point regarding the fact that an intergrated student would have been known to the school/trainer for the whole duration and could possible provide a better reference.

I'm in a position where I "could" potentially afford an intergrated course but it would be less of a struggle financially and to my family if I did the Mod route. So because it is potentially possible that I can chose from both worlds, what would be more attractive?

From what I've read, providing you are not daft enough to only set your sights on BA, then it doesn't really matter what route you chose. If money isn't an issue (hopefully that doesn't sound flippant) the ony benefit an Integrated course gives you is you finish it quicker? But thats hardly a benefit right? you still have to look for that job - along with other integrated pilots finishing the same time as you, the mods who are finishing around this time even though they took longer, and plus the other poor souls who have finshed their courses before you! - all swimming around in a pool!

[G SXTY]

Integrated may open to the door to BA with 200hrs, it may not. It's arguable that an integrated course may give you a slightly greater chance of getting into one or two other airlines with a low hours CV.

What is indisputable is that an integrated course is the far more expensive option, and that the modular route gives you great flexibility to train full time or part time, and to speed up or slow down your schedule to suit your circumstances and - just as importantly, the job market.

I could just about make a case for starting modular training at the moment, assuming you worked full-time and trained / studied for the PPL and ATPL writtens in your spare time. Taking it slowly and working on a 3 year schedule, there's at least a chance that the job market will look at lot better in 2012. If it's still bad you can always delay the CPL & IR.

For what it's worth, I think it would be madness to sign up for an integrated course at the moment.

[Keygrip]

It's much harder for an airline to assess someone's training record if they have been to the US for their CPL, then back to the UK for an IR which they started with one school and finished with another.

Well, that should stop all Oxford students then - especially as they have done, in essence, a modular course (even though it's dressed up as an integrated one).....and Oxford are keen to point out (for various legal and financial reasons, that the USA and the UK are two totally seperate companies).

They even use the same instructors, same aircraft, same examiners, same test routes, yada yada yada for the modular as they do for the so-called integrated.

The only differences between the two, at Oxford, are the price and the title of the course.

The entire industry is smoke and mirrors - doesn't matter what and how provided it looks OK on paper.

[demomonkey]

How many 'u's in cynical? :)

[G SXTY]

Fair cop, how about:

It's much harder for an airline to assess someone's training record if they have been to a US FTO for their CPL, then back to a separate, unrelated UK FTOfor an IR which they started with one school and finished with another.

Better? ;)

[fabbe92]

I would do everythin to go Integrated but I don´t have the money. I can´t take a lone since I have no relatives who owns properties at that price.

So I have decided to make my self the best pilot possible and work my way up.

I have applyed for Scandinavian Aviation Academy and if I pass the apptitude tests I will start my training in august. I will get my CPL and 150 hours for free. After that I plan to do the completion training and get the ME/IR, MCC and froozen atpl. After that I wil look at the situation. If Ryanair is hiiring, I will do their type rating course and hope to get a job with them. So my goal is to enter an airline like Ryanair, Flybe, BMIbaby etc and if I am lucky to get the job, I will start building up hours and after a few years, if the market is good, I will apply for an airline like BA.

Why I am so interested of just BA is just childish dreams. My first contact with Aviation where the BA 737 flights out of Gatwick in the 90s. So when I saw that OAA produced pilots for the Gatwick 737 job, I was emeadiatley hooked. But BA will probably get rid of their 737s in a year or so so I reallised that this was just a stupid dream. I have to think reallisticly. And secondly I don´t want to fly tose a320s:}

Just kidding, I wil be happy to fly everything but if I have the opption, I will rather fly the 738 for Ryanair and do those more difficult approaches to the small airports, at the age of 21 than to work with BA from 21-55 years of age.

I tought of it like this and this may be a good idea for everyone at my age.

Why spend money you don´t have to get a job with BA and then spend everything of your salary to pay of the debts?

I can pay allmoast nothing and get a job with Ryanair. I will earn allmoast the same as the BA pilots. And I can spend my salary on travells, appartments and cars. And I get to fly an airplane that I like more. Then of course I will do everything to get in to BA with time since I would like to fly longhaul if I get the oppurtunitie.

Think reallistic guys!!!!

I hope you guys like my new Idea now hehe?

Cheers:ok:

[nick14]

You won't be paying nothing to work for Ryanair, Type rating will cost you
E33,000.

I like your ambition. There are many young guys out there with a similar drive so try your best and good luck.

I think BA are keeping the 734 at LGW untill 2012 slowly converting crews to the bus. It wasn't just OAA producing pilots for BA im sure.

Nick

[mad_jock]

Just for the record nick14's reason for going integrated I can fully understand and I would say is a valid reason for doing it.

My experience of flying with 200hour or in some cases 170hour low hour FO's is that there is no difference between the 2 methods of being trained. They both have the same hang ups with handling and spacial awareness . Both are slow and very talky on the RT and are guaranteed to step on others. Neither can read a instrument plate which isn't one of their test routes. Handling wise its more of a personal skill in the pilot some are very good and others acceptable and it doesn't seem to matter how they were trained

The other type of FO is the ex-instructor and single pilot ops pilot each have other issues but are in a different league compared to the low hour FO's, who can and will pull a blinder out of the bag when you least suspect it. Its a capacity thing the instructors and SPA pilots have heaps more than the low houred guys. And they don't scream like a girl when you get a wing drop at 200ft, they just sort it out.

And BA isn't what it was 10 years ago. Yes the package is good compared to alot of companys but the big picture of working for them is not as brilliant for new starts as it was.
I am not saying it is a bad job just that its not the dream job it once was.

[fabbe92]

I know it will cost me 33.000 for the RYR Type Rating.

But here is the situation.

If I go to Oxford I will probably pay 101000£ for the course (food and housing included). So to do this I will probably have to sacrifice everything. And lets say I don´t get hired by an airline that is willing to pay my TR, then I am screwed.

But if I choose the free school, the only thing I have to pay for is the completion training. So to be a airliner pilot it will cost me 23000£ and then I have the money needed for a Type Rating so it is not a problem for me.

Since you guys are that will go modular are looking for something cheap. Try www.bfsaa.se (http://www.bfsaa.se) . You don´t have to go to the states to get cheap training. the CPL/ME/IR will cost you 22000£, MCC with Ryanair = 4000£. This is pretty cheap for being in Europe I think? Of course you need to have your PPL and the ATPL theory allready. Or you can do your ATPL theory there for 5000£

Cheers:ok:

[nick14]

There are much cheaper MCC's out there.

Ok well good luck with it all.

Nick

[Artie Fufkin]

OK, lets really go off road;

I notice John Monks is no longer in charge of recruitment at BA according to PPJN (the source of all 100% factually correct info http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif) and it is now Dave Burrows.

Maybe Mr Burrows trained modular so we could see a change in policy if/when BA reopen their doors?Take a look here (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/baweb1/tpl_ba01.asp?newms=info127)

Wasn't it called a Self Sponsored Pilot (SSP) scheme and, if so, where is the "Self"?

Change in policy or cock up?

[fabbe92]

Yeah but the Ryanair MCC is the best option in order to get a job with Ryanair:ok:

[Aerospace101]

hello skyhigh,

the answer to yr Q is Historical training record.

the ONLY reason BA dont take mod students is because in the 90's they took on a group of 'self improvers' aka mod students. They failed their training - didnt reach BAs standards; and cost BA alot of money.

hence they dont want to make same mistake again.

As to why these mod studes failed is an entirely different debate.

[mad_jock]

Fabbe92 you might not of noticed but most of the posters on this thread are a bit passed the choosing how to get trained stage.

Keygrip models hawaiian shirts in Florida and has a part time job as a flight examiner and beer quality control expert.


And GSXTY and myself were both wannabies going through training when 9/11 kicked off.

From having a look at the huge pile of CV's that I presume are replicated in every ops room in the UK the biggest obvious difference between intergrated and modular are the CV's.

The Intergrated ones mostly look the same, all are set out nicely and are easy to read, have the correct information in the order that you would want it and are boring. Usually because the person is straight out of school or Uni and have done nothing with thier life.

The modular CV's are mostly ill thought out have no structure to them or use gimmicks which alot of people would feel inappropriate to the job they are applying for. I still have a mug with some Police Sgt's CV printed on the side of it. I haven't seen any of his stuff for a couple of years now, I hope he has a job. And if he is reading this I do know quite a few line pilots who hassled the boss to try and get you an interview.

The ones that stand out for me are the ones which the person has done something. The format is nearly the same as the integrated standard CV but different. The person has done something different ie at Uni the were in the TA or had done VSO, scuba diving instructor, played a sport to an international level. Or if they arn't a Uni person they ran there own business had interesting hobbies etc. IT waffle bollocks about helpdesks and all that crap is so seethru its unbelievable so don't be tempted.

It can be something really stupid like the person used to be a roofer. One lad I have heard of went for the interview and got told if he could stop the water pissing in the hanger roof he could start the type rating Monday.

As you can see its not your training as such its more the way you sell yourself that makes the difference.

[nick14]

I don't know of anyone who has been in the last intake of cadets at ryanair that hav edone the ryanair MCC, really don't think it makes any difference??

Any views?

[preduk]

The RYR MCC allows you to work with their SOPs while your doing the training, I believe Relavant737 (sorry forgot his username) had done it or knew someone that done it from previous posts. You don't need to do a SIM check as well I believe (again someone would be better confirming this)

[nick14]

Admitedly yes it does but 737 MCC's will use similar SOP's.

I certainly did not find any differences with the Ryanair SOP's bar speeds and one or two calls. I couldn't justify the extra £2000 just for SOP's.

Nick

I believe that system is no longer in place. All cadets must now do a sim and interview no matter where they trained.

[Adios]

Artie,

BA's funded cadet scheme was called TEP for Training Entry Pilot, not SSP. SSP has only been around since 2005. I'm not sure why the website you linked to didn't have it correct.

[Aerospace101]

SSP has only been around since 2005


incorrect.

SSP has been around aslong as TEP. SSP was used as an additional recruitment tool alongside TEP.

[ford cortina]

No the Ryanair SOP's are spoke with a Irish Accent. or so I am told, that said most of the Ryanair calls I hear over southern Europe are Eastern European.:eek:

Fabbe, I never thought I would say this to you, well done and good luck. By doing the Ryanair MCC you might well get the chance to fly for them, and if you want to know the B738 is a great airplane to fly, I fly it a lot, but prefer the 734, although it is a bit slower and basic, it is a lot more stable.

Enjoy
FC

[fabbe92]

Maybe we are a little of topic here hehe. I have never flewn a real jet and I am not a pilot but in the flighstim and as style, I like the 733/4/5 more than the 737NG.

I know that these pretty much dissapearing and I would never Tye Rate on one since this would not give me many job oppurtunities. But for you pilot guys that have flewn both types. If we said that both the classic and NG where both highly used by the airlines, which one would you reccomend type rating on, I would go for the clasic one since I like to fly her as a passenger and I like to fly her in the sim. But I have never experienced how she is IRL:}

:ok:

[ford cortina]

Fabbe mate, in JAA land (or soon to be EASA land) the B737 type rating is as follows,

B737-300/900 this means toy can fly classic up to and including BBJ2's or 900's. I fly on a regular basis the 400 and 800. Its the same rating with differences.