141 vs 61 cost in America, PPL-MEI

[Customx]

I'm currently looking for flight schools in America that will take me from PPL-MEI. I've found several schools that charge about $40,000 for PPL-Commercial, but then I have to add the CFI, CFII and MEI, and that will cost at least another $8,000. Add in the check ride fees and it seems like I have to spend at least $50,000 for PPL-MEI. I think this is all part 61 though. Will there be much of a difference between the part 61 and 141 price?

[B2N2]

Yes, there COULD be a big difference.
Under part 141 the Minimum amount of hrs for a CPL is 190, under part 61 this is 250.
Keep in mind that the 190 is the absolute legal minimum, not necessarily a realistic number. But even if you finish in 220 hrs it should be slightly less expensive.

[wis3384]

also keep in mind that if your a international student i dont think u can do part 61 ! it have to be a part 141 flight school to issue you a M visa

[chongololo]

The visa is something you will have to find out about.
As others have said, part 141 has lower flight time requirements but you also need to factor in the required ground instruction as part of your expenses. Find out what they will charge you for ground instruction.
Another thing thing to look at is the price difference between 141 and 61 schools as far as rental costs go. Some of the bigger part 141 schools charge more for the planes than the smaller FBO type 61 schools.
Some smaller part 61 schools may not have a twin for you to rent for ME/MEI.
I have instructed at both types.
Good luck.

[B2N2]

also keep in mind that if your a international student i dont think u can do part 61 ! it have to be a part 141 flight school to issue you a M visa

Partially correct, the school needs to have Part 141 certification in order to be approved for issuance of the I-20 form which you need for the visa.
The training does not specifically have to be Part 141.

[Customx]

BTW, I'm American, so I don't need to worry about any kind of visa. I'm living abroad at the moment, but looking for a place to start once I move back.

[chongololo]

Well then that makes a big difference, you should have mentioned that in your first post.
I would suggest going the FBO part 61 route if it works out cheaper or close to the same after you run some numbers.
Take it slow and try to avoid the large debt which usually accompanies the bigger 141 academy type schools.
Things are slow right now in the training industry so will will find instructors and planes available to go as fast or as slow as you want.
You may be able to bargain a little with them too.
Don't pre-pay to any school unless you can be assured of them being a credible outfit.
Good luck and most of all have fun during your training.

[hubbs1982]

Although you can do it under 141 in fewer hours than 61, it will probably be far more expensive for two reasons:

1) Far more of those hours will be dual, thus you will need to be paying for an instructor as well.

2) In order to do it 141 you will need to do it at one of the bigger FBOs or Academies, who tend to charge you more for the plane.

Other factors to consider, if you are looking for jobs, those extra 50 hours may just make the difference in terms of meeting insurance minimums. Also, whilst building time for your IR and Commercial under 61, you can have a lot of fun flying places and seeing things, 141 is going to be a lot more restrictive.

I'd personally join a flying club and do it as cheap as you can under 61.

BTW sorry I was unable to meet with you when you came to Dallas before, my wife and I had to go out of town last minute.

[BelArgUSA]

Excellent explanations about why to prefer FAR 61 rather than 141 training.
There are numerous ways to decrease the cost of FAR 61 training.
xxx
Most little schools or individual CFIs operate from small/uncontrolled airfields.
Engine warm...? Cleared for immediate takeoff. No waiting for traffic.
Learn to fly in the most inexpensive airplane. No need for high cruise speed.
You are looking for hours, not speed.
xxx
I did my PPL with a J-3C Piper Cub... soloed at 11 hrs.
When came time to get "tricycle" time (C-150), took me 1 hour of dual for check-out.
The opposite is quite different, C-150 first solo at 10-12 hours... yes.
But when comes to let you solo a Cub taildragger, they want 5+ hours dual...!
So do taildragger time initially, for your first solo.
xxx
You need a high performance/complex plane for the CPL.
Do the minimum hours in these expensive planes.
xxx
For IFR training, you can do part of training in a synthetic trainer.
Less expensive than an airplane.
You can train part of instrument flying IFR in a VFR only C-150.
No need for dual VOR/ILS + ADF equipment for entire training in a... C-172/182 - $$$
You can learn LOC approaches, and B/C approaches in a VFR C-150.
Holding can be learned in a C-150 with 1 VOR only.
xxx
Finally, rent your C-150 or PA-28 dry for cross country practice solo.
Schools compute "wet rates" rental for touch and goes and high consumption.
Cruising at 8,500' or 9,500' altitude will be more economical when you pay for gasoline.
xxx
:hmm:
Happy contrails

[Customx]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm I've found a place where I can do everything for $40k, but I'm trying to explore all options. I've sent at least 30 emails to instructors who teach at flying clubs, but they usually charge $45-60/hr for instruction. Going through a flying club for all of the ratings will cost around $42-48k.

The only other alternative that I have is to buy my own plane, hire an instructor, and then rent a plane for the commercial and multi ratings.

Hubbs- No problem. I was able to visit Skymates, Monarch, and one other FBO. If I'm ever in Dallas again I'll be sure to send you a pm.

[hubbs1982]

At my club, RFC Dallas Flying Club (http://www.rfcdallas.com), there are a number of instructors that charge in the $30-40 range, including one guy who will do it for $30 per flight!

https://www.flywhiteair.com/White_Air-Career_Track_Trai.html
Star Bright Aviation (http://www.starbrightaviation.com/programs.html)
Falcon Aviation -Career Pilot Training (http://www.falconaviationacademy.com/pilot/pilot.asp)
Accelerated Pilot Program (http://www.careerpilotschool.com/programs/accelerated-career-pilot-program)
Commercial Pilot Packages (http://www.accessibleaviation.com/packages.htm)

These are some of the many options that are open to you if you want to go with a school, I got these from JetCareers they all have subforums there where you can probably ask questions of current and past students and get an idea of what they are like. I like the sound of places that include housing and unlimited ground and flight instruction. Getting a bunch of multi time is also nice, but certainly not essential.

I made a very basic spreadsheet that allows you to play around with different costs and hours to get an idea of how much it is going to run to if you were going to go down the flying club route. Can't seem to post it on here, pm me your email address and I'll send it your way. But just an idea using the numbers from my club: based on FAA minimums, splitting all of your single engine and multi engine timebuilding requirements with someone else, and getting proficient at flying from the right seat during your commercial training and hour building you could go from 0 to MEI in $25,000. This is obviously fairly unrealistic but is feasible, it is far more likely that it will cost you a fair bit more. Based on 60hrs total for your PPL, 30hrs of Dual for the IR, 10hrs Dual for CSEL and 10hrs Dual for the CMEL and still a fair amount of time sharing you are looking at somewhere in the $30-35,000 range.

The key to saving money is killing multiple birds with one stone, make the most you can from every single flight hour. For example, after your first solo, make every solo flight a solo XC to build PIC XC time. After your private, when splitting time with others, make sure all your hood time is also PIC XC. The 10 hours or so required for the CMEL add on can be gained before you get your CSEL and thus count towards the 250 total time, basically you are training for CSEL and CMEL at the same time. Get as much experience from the right seat before starting your CFI as it will make the transition easier (and thus cheaper). Probably the most important thing you can do is study really hard on the bookwork, and you'll spend less time trying to learn stuff you should know whilst burning 100LL and paying $2 per minute.

[KFTW]

HI,
Here the cheap and quality one PROAIRCRAFT FLIGHT TRAINING (http://www.pprune.org/www.pro-aircraft.com),Fort Worth Texas.It is nice place to fly.contact them for current price.

Best of luck,

Regards,
KFTW

[B2N2]

Part 141 bashing seems to be the fashion now.
Don't forget that it has advantages too;

If you are good enough 35 hrs for your PPL
If you are good enough 35 hrs for your Instrument rating

Unlikely that you will do it in 35 hrs, not many people do.
But equally unlikely that you will finish in minimum hours Part 61 either.
The national average for a PPL in the US is 70-80 hrs.
Now this includes the very old, the very young and the people that start, stop and start again.
So hrs wise for the PPL we'll call that a draw between 61 and 141.

You are going to NEED ground school regardless, 61 or 141.
Most 141 syllabi call for at least 35 hrs of ground school.
In the Jeppesen syllabus 11 hrs of this is pre flight briefing and post flight briefing, over 29 lessons this is 0.4hrs/lesson.
That's hardly over the top, 12 min with an instructor before and after the flight.
0.5 before and after the flight is more what you need.
That leaves 24 hrs of other ground instruction.
Consider:

4 hrs basic knowledge
4 hrs airspace
4 hrs regulations
6 hrs cross country navigation and charts
2 hrs night
4 hrs prep for your check ride

That's already 24 hrs and the above is not even enough, just the bare naked minimum that you should also get under part 61.


If we assume for a moment, just for the discussion's sake that the airplane $100/hr and the instructor $50/hr.
That means that you can do 3 hrs of ground instruction for every hour of dual flight time. If your instructor does 10 hrs more of ground school and can safe you 5 hrs in the airplane you are SAVING money.
Under part 61 you need at least the same amount of ground school as you do under part 141. Face it, you can't learn flying from reading a book; it helps if you do.
So we can call the ground school a draw again.
Even though it isn't because the quality of the ground school under part 141 should be higher since it has to be an FAA approved syllabus and the school is under continuous scrutiny from the FAA.

You are obviously interested in making a career out of flying.
Under part 141 you can start right away with the Instrument rating after the PPL, under 61 you need to fly 50 hrs PIC XC before you can do your IFR check ride. This means timebuilding VFR.
If you have your PPL and IFR 141 you can do your timebuilding at least on an IFR flight plan, which is not only more valuable but also safer since you are a more qualified pilot.
Do your time building at night, cross country on an IFR flightplan.
That way you can fill almost all of the columns in your logbook.
Even if you finish your CPL part 61 you will have the advantage of a lot more IFR Pilot in Command time.

So to summarize:

If we assume the flight time is equal
If we assume the amount of ground school is equal


You still come out ahead by training Part 141 because you don't need the 50 hrs PIC CFR cross country prior to your instrument rating.
A busier 141 school vs. a quiet 61 school should be able to team you up with another student so that you can sit in on each other's ground school and back seat on flights. Big advantage. I don't see that happening at a smaller 61 school where you might be the only student for that rating.
A larger school may have a good deal on class style ground school. Less cost same info, same quality.

OK sermon over, time to rant::ugh:
I did my PPL with a J-3C Piper Cub... soloed at 11 hrs
And this was when exactly? 1965?
Good luck finding a school that will let you do primary training on a tail wheel and send you on a solo XC on it. There is such a thing as insurance requirements unless they don't carry insurance off course.

Finally, rent your C-150 or PA-28 dry for cross country practice solo.
Your school will buy fuel in bulk from the FBO since they are a business on the field. Means they pay less for their fuel then you would if you are a transient visitor. Good luck finding cheaper fuel unless you don't mind to always go the the same airport in the woods.
Fuel deals can be found here:
AirNav: Great Deals in Aviation Fuel (http://airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/)
Random state, Minnesota 141 FBOs, average $4.22

Schools compute "wet rates" rental for touch and goes and high consumption.
No they don't, they calculate based on average fuel burn per type of airplane over a year. That includes cross countries, maneuvers, touch-and-go's..everything. Exactly what a student will be doing while time building.

Cruising at 8,500' or 9,500' altitude will be more economical when you pay for gasoline.
The cruise will be,the climb will not that really depends too much on the day for being a valid argument.

Last, if you can find a self employed instructor charging $30/hr, walk away.
A good instructor is worth much more than that.
Thought about how much insurance costs for a self employed CFI?
You can't get anybody to look at your car for less then $70/hr or to fix your plumbing.
We're talking about learning a skill that can make the difference between life and death. Don't pay peanuts for that sort of thing.
Rant over :}
Let me know if you need info or if I can help you find a place.

CustomX, are you in the Military by any chance?
In that case you can do your flight training on the VA bill.
The school needs to be 141 certified in order to have VA approval..:ok: