C130 Water Landing- been tried?

[charliegolf]

The Hudson River story dredged up crewroom banter from the 80's where someone reckoned a Herc was landed on water deliberately (during the testing phase?) with not wonderful results.

Any truth in it? The carrier landing don't count!

CG

[Farfrompuken]

I was told that a Brazilian Herc ditched after running out of fuel. The ditching was successful and it stayed afloat for a while.

Apparently all crew survived the ditching but by the time the rescue had been effected there had been one fatality; the Captain shot the Nav for getting them lost.

Don't know of authenticity but it's a good story anyhow!

[N Joe]

I'm no expert on the piloting side of performing the ditching manoeuvre, but assuming it survived impact, the high-wing design means the fuselage would sit much lower in the water and probably tilted well to one side. Getting a full load of pax out of the top hatches would also be interesting.

N Joe

[ORAC]

I was told that a Brazilian Herc ditched after running out of fuel. Columbian.

[VinRouge]

List of C-130 Hercules crashes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-130_Hercules_crashes)

[C130 Techie]

On 22 Nov 1996 a US (ANG?) C130, call sign King 56, crashed in the Pacific Ocean after all 4 engines failed and the crew attempted to ditch the aircraft. 10 of the 11 crew were killed when the aircraft broke up on impact with the water.

I recall at the time there was much discussion about water landings/ditching and that whilst there had been several attempts there had never been a successful one.

[ORAC]

Columbian ditching in 1982: (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19821016-0) Date: 16 OCT 1982

Type: Lockheed C-130B Hercules
Operator: Fuerza Aérea Colombiana
Registration: FAC1003
C/n / msn: 3572
First flight: 1960
Crew: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Passengers: Fatalities: / Occupants:
Total: Fatalities: 5 / Occupants: 13
Airplane damage: Written off
Airplane fate: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: 330 km (206.3 mls) E off Cape May, NJ, USA (Atlantic Ocean)
Phase: En route (ENR)
Nature: Military
Departure airport: Terceira-Lajes AFB, Azores (TER/LPLA), Portugal
Destination airport: Bermuda-Kindley Field NAS (NWU), Bermuda

Narrative:

Ditched in Atlantic Ocean in 55kt winds after running out of fuel en route Azores-Bermuda due to navigation system failure; the Hercules remained afloat for 2 days.

http://www.spectrumwd.com/c130/image2/c130_690.jpg

[US Herk]

Heard they had to deliberately sink the Columbian Herk as it drifted into the shipping lanes and posed a hazard. Could just be rumour to make a good story better - also heard the Nav died of lead poisoning. :}

Of course, there's also Jockey 14 - the AC-130H that crashed off the coast of Somalia in '94 or '95. The USAF made a training tape out of interviews of the surviving crew.

Ditching is not something I'm keen to try in the Mighty Hercules...

[barry lloyd]

Just for the record - the country is ColOmbia, thus making the C130 ColOmbian.

[Farfrompuken]

Not such a good story with 5 fatalities. And the list of hull losses on Wikipedia is a tad sobering too....

[anotherthing]

Given the high wing, and the fact it ditched in the ocean when there was 55Kts of wind, I think 'only' 5 deaths was a very good result and showed excellent skills by the crew.

[Gainesy]

Lockheed did propose a flying boat C-130 and did model/tank tests; I think it was aimed at the Japan ASDF (MSDF?) which eventually bought the Shin-Meiwa US-1.

[L J R]

The Colombian deaths were all on the flight deck - so I am told. Survivors were down the back. apparently, the flight deck had a lot more than the 'standard' 4 crewmembers at impact.

[Logistics Loader]

Would i be correct in saying an RAF C130 ditched in the sea with Para's onboard, circa 1970's...??
Think i read a snippet somewhere years ago...!!

[pottwiddler]

Mr Loader
To quote Wikipedia, are you thinking of this?


November 9, 1971 : An RAF C-130K, XV216, c/n 4243, from 24 Sqn crashed into the sea off Pisa with 46 Italian paratroopers onboard. There were no survivors.

[Logistics Loader]

Mr PW,

thats the one i think i heard about...

tried to google it, but i couldnt access google prior to my posting on subject..
sorry to hear no-one got out...

[Double Zero]

Farfrompuken,


shooting the Nav' sounds a tad harsh !

Then again, I can think of some people who should have been shot before they even boarded the aircraft...

[bayete]

I was in XV217, 34 years later dropping Italian paratroops into Pisa (Ex Ponteveccio).
We were told that it was the first time Italian troops had dropped into Italy from a UK aircraft since the crash and it felt a bit strange being in XV217 following in the footsteps of XV216.
Needless to say all went well.

[HiFli]

I believe the captain of the Colombian Herk was the Chief of the Air Force.

[BluntM8]

Torpy is colombian?

[loadmasterC130]

I was a loadmaster on C-130's. This aircraft was pressurized, so seals aroung the doors and the cargo ramp were tight. There were exit hatches along the top so that a crew could exit the aircraft without opening the door, which would have swamped the plane quickly.

As to landing it on water, it had an essentially flat-bottomed fuselage and two sponsons, one over each main gear. I see no reason why this airplane could not be ditched, provided that it was not windy and the water was smooth.

In any case, I have personally seen a photograph of a USAF C-130 floating on the ocean. The only visible parts of the aircraft were the top of the wing and the vertical stabilizer.

At on time I had this photo. I think I found it on Airliners.Net, which has a huge database of photos.

[VinRouge]

From what I remember, the flight deck had a high likelihood of flooding on impact from the oggin...

Always decided if it had happened, down the back for the flight deck bar the skipper was probably the best way to ensure the majority of the crew survived.

[sumps]

I take it...its this one?

http://herkybirds.com/images/fbfiles/images/3572.jpg

[loadmasterC130]

The posted picture is indeed the one I was referring to. Thanks for taking the trouble to share it.

I have no idea what the ditching procedures for a C-130 are; although most of my flights were over water, the subject of ditching was never discussed.

I am no pilot, but if I were and if I ever had to ditch an aircraft, I would jettison the cargo, dump the fuel if possible, and land in the direction the waves were moving. I realize that having the wind at the tail would make for a higher speed relative to the water below than landing into the wind.

It seems to me that if you try to land into the wind, although this would make for a lower impact speed with the water, it would also create a virtual assurance of hitting a wave head on, thereby caving in the cockpit windows. Plus, I believe it would subject the aircraft to stresses that would make it more likely to break apart before it came to rest.

It's too bad that the fellow who landed the C-130 shown in the photo isn't available to tell us how he did it.

[charliebrown737]

I was told during initial ground school on the Herc that there had never been a successful ditching in a Herc. The forward section snaps off forward of the wing and immediately sinks. Maybe someone in the tail could survive but in the cockpit, you are a goner.

Why then we went to survival training in the hotel pool with life vests and rafts is a wonder.:=

After 5,000 hours in the old girl, still one of my favs

[Mechta]

So much on the net is the result of over fertile imaginations, but this sounds plausible, and could be what Gainsey was referring to back in 2009:

http://atomictoasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/C130-Seaplane-4.jpg

Hercules Goes For a Swim : Atomic Toasters (http://atomictoasters.com/2013/02/hercules-goes-for-a-swim/)

http://atomictoasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/C130-Seaplane-3.jpg

[ExAscoteer]

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss226/DebsEvans24/Floatplane_zpsfh4eovrb.jpg (http://s578.photobucket.com/user/DebsEvans24/media/Floatplane_zpsfh4eovrb.jpg.html)

[Treble one]

Do we still have The Schneider Trophy?

[SASless]

The Hudson River story dredged up crewroom banter from the 80's where someone reckoned a Herc was landed on water deliberately (during the testing phase?) with not wonderful results.

During WWII, a B-24 was ditched on purpose to prove its ability to survive such a landing.

In the Training Film based upon the Test Flight....it was noted the suggested technique would be to keep the aircraft attitude level with the water instead of the Tail Low approach as filmed.

Also....most Operational B-24's had a lot of plexiglass in the nose vice the solid nose on the Test Aircraft.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjadMxpXprk

[Pontius Navigator]

According to test models the Nimrod could not survive a ditching. The nose would hammer down killing the flight deck crew etc.

It could and they survived.

[oxenos]

According to test models the Nimrod could not survive a ditching. The nose would hammer down killing the flight deck crew etc.
It could and they survived.

In fact the film we were shown of the model ditching trials when I did the course in 1970, showed that at the correct attitude (aircraft, not personal) a ditching was perfectly practical, even with a swell. There would be a lot of "G" at the front as the nose pitched down,but survivable.
Someone was paying attention - Art Stacey was on the same course.
The film also showed that the fuselage would break in line with the trailing edge of the wing. Seeing aerial photos of his aircraft sitting in the Moray Firth was like deju vu all over again.

[GGR155]

Interesting how the crew member exits the sinking aircraft and first thing that springs to mind is combing his hair.......

[pasta]

I am no pilot, but if I were and if I ever had to ditch an aircraft, I would jettison the cargo, dump the fuel if possible, and land in the direction the waves were moving. I realize that having the wind at the tail would make for a higher speed relative to the water below than landing into the wind.
Having spent an unhealthy amount of time bashing various fast boats into waves from both directions, I can report that waves tend to travel at around half the wind speed. Hitting them badly from behind tended to result in much bigger crashes, purely because we were travelling roughly twice as fast, and therefore had four times as much kinetic energy.

If you apply a bit of vector addition to your ditching problem, it turns out that, because the wave is travelling around half wind speed, you're going to hit the wave at roughly the same speed, regardless of whether you're landing into wind or downwind. However your speed relative to the water is going to be a lot lower going into wind, so that's going to be the safer option.

[MacSheikh]

Most civilian procedures seem to recommend landing along the swell, assuming you're landing at sea. Below from the A380:

The following guidelines can be used to evaluate wind speed:
A few white crests: 8 kt-17 kt
Many white crests: 17 kt-26 kt
Streaks of foam along water: 23 kt-35 kt
Spray from waves: 35 kt-43 kt.
Sea state:
This is best determined from a height of 500 ft to 1 000 ft. At lower height, the direction of the swell may be less obvious than the direction of the waves, even though the waves are much smaller.
When there is no swell, align into the wind.
In the presence of swell, and provided that drift does not exceed 10 °, ditch parallel to the swell and as nearly into the wind as possible. If drift exceeds 10 °, ditch into wind. The presence of drift on touchdown is not dangerous, but every effort should be made to minimize roll.
Touchdown with approximately 8 ° of pitch and minimum vertical speed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oxenos, same film, I bow to your memory. It might have been a different instructor or interpretation. Certainly I do not recall the FD impact being seen as survivable.

At least the Atlantics were survivable :)

Any Shacks ditch?

[oxenos]

Any Shacks ditch?
Nov. 67.A 205 Sqn Shack en route Gan-Changi had an overspeed and engine fire West of Sumatra. The fire spread into the wing and the wing broke off outboard of the outer engine. With half a wing gone, and only one aileron, the pilots could not keep the wings level, and it hit the water in a descending turn. Hardly a ditching, but three out of 11 survived.
If you look at ditching statistics, a very high proportion of those on board survive the impact. Some do not get out of the aircraft,and some drown, but the overall survival rate is still surprisingly high.

[beardy]

The Catalina night water landing was quite straightforward. Into wind if possible, set a power for stall speed plus about 3 knots and a descent of 200 fpm and wait. Daytime was to fly level just above and along the swell and slowly reduce speed to the stall. They quite frequently lost rivets and occasionally aircraft.
I feel sure that there were enough pilots from that era to influence the development of ditching techniques for the C130.

[Brian W May]

The Nimrod was XW (IIRC) 666 and the nose section is in the Doncaster Aviation Museum car park.

Indeed the Pilot's Notes (ACM) ditching advice for the RAF Hercules was ALONG the swell.

[Herod]

Indeed the Pilot's Notes (ACM) ditching advice for the RAF Hercules was ALONG the swell.

That certainly was the advice on every type I ever flew. Hitting a wave, either head-on or behind, wouldn't be a lot of fun

[chevvron]

Mid 1969 a USAF C130 ditched in the English Channel. The sole occupant, non aircrew, died having 'stolen ' it from Mildenhall.
I was an ATC assistant at West Drayton at the time when ADNC phoned asking for clearance for Lightnings to transit the LTMA to intercept it.
Whether they actually shot it down I don't know.

[Mechta]

Mechta Senior's first job as an RAE flight test observer was in a Short Sunderland, gathering test data to be used for the Princess flying boat design. The tests involved landing the Sunderland harder and harder each time. When the wingtip float broke off, they decided to call it a day...

[ShotOne]

C130 ditched in the channel...? I'm not sure that's the case. The (non-pilot) who had "borrowed" it had only limited training. There may have been a loss of control depending on which version you choose. Either way it doesn't tell us much about C130 ditching characteristics.