flight school show / fair at Heathrow ? [Archive]

felixflyer

9th Feb 2009, 06:57

I work at Heathrow and am currently in the middle of doing my modular training. I have a free car park space and a free bus that takes me from the staff car park to the place where the 'Flight Training Show' is being held. I also live about 15 minutes away.

I have been here 2 years and have yet to get enough enthusiasm together to attend one of these. The way i see it the airlines do not need to advertise jobs as there are so many pilots looking for work. The FTO's however do need to advertise and will be there in force.

Im not going to be going integrated. I know when/where im doing my modular training based on going to the places and looking around. I dont see any point talking to any airlines about job vacancies or at least 18 months.

If you have the cash and can't decide where to go for integrated training then i could see it would be interesting but other than that i dont really see the point.

Groundloop

9th Feb 2009, 08:42

What a load of toss these fairs are. Don't get sucked in folks.

What a lot of negative baloney!!! These exhibitions give you the chance to speak personally to representatives of maybe 20-25 FTOs, from all over the place. An awful lot quicker (and cheaper, mad jock) than initially visiting lots of them personally. You may even come across an FTO you had not even considered before.

If you have the cash and can't decide where to go for integrated training

There are a lot more modular FTOs exhibiting than integrated FTOs.

PilotPieces

9th Feb 2009, 08:43

No doubt I will get 5% off an integrated course if I sign up and pay in full on the day :}

RTN11

9th Feb 2009, 09:43

The last one I went to, I made my entrance fee back by buying a discounted CRP-5 and oxford Met CD-ROM from the transair stand.

I'd say it's worth going, but you have to bear in mind that the FTOs really want your money, so will be saying things about how many vacancies there are.

If you're about to start training, it's really quite useful.

fabbe92

9th Feb 2009, 10:25

Since you know my situation where I can´t decide which training I should choose, do you reccomend me paying for the travel from Gothenburg to London to go see it?

mad_jock

9th Feb 2009, 10:52

As I will never darken the door of a FTO again or one of these shows.

I only went to one and didn't pay to get in and it was bollocks.

The amount of crap that was being talked could have de-iced a runway.

We have a 100% pass rate. eh I saw old Partial up in Leeds fail one of yours 2 weeks ago. Yes well 100% in the first series you do realise this show is for students who haven't started training yet?

BA only take Integrated Graduates eh how come 6 FO's from Eastern have just started with BA with under 1000 hours all modular trained. 35k for there training and 6k paying off thier bond. Err thats for low hour cadets h'mmm experienced multi crew pilots are different.

There is going to be a shortage of pilots soon.

We have links to industry

We run as an unofficial first line recruitment screening for xxxx airline.

We have the best pass rate in the UK. Well do you want to go and have a word with 3 schools along there because they reckon they have the highest as well.

We have a state of the art simulator. No you don't you have a FNPT II and I bet its ****e like all the rest.

And the reason why you are visiting the schools is because

There ultra modern fleet turns out to be 2 shagged dutchess one of which is a spares queen. By the way nothing wrong with a shagged dutchess if the price is right.

All our planes are de-iced. Little did they tell you if you want this option it will cost you an extra 80quid an hour in fluid.

The general feel of the school.

The instructors are they pissed off with the managment.

The students who are training just now what are they saying.

Are they happy for you to talk to current students. Or do you have to grab one when they outside having a fag.

Is there lots of people sitting around waiting for training slots or aircraft.

Instructor Student ratio.

One of the biggest selling points for the show is the schools who arn't there. They are the ones who get more than enough punters through the door through word of mouth from happy customers. When you phone up they won't be able to give you a start date for a couple of months if not more.

But then again if your a dreamer and like being fluffed by these marketing gimps, fill your boots. £8.50 for 3 hours of being pandered to and being told everything is sunny in your never never world which you think is aviation must be money well spent.

And no I don't think its worth you coming over. You must be getting on for 300euros from Denmark, a night in a hotel in Heathrow 50 quid in the holiday Inn if your lucky. £8.50 for the "show" which is a bloody good term for it. That's 3 hours into your PPL wasted.

preduk

9th Feb 2009, 11:55

Nicely put mad_jock!

I was at an FTE one speaking to them about their partnership with FlyBE and when my father questioned them on the low amount of money left after the training costs were taking from my wages the only thing they could reply was "Eh... I get past ok"

jez d

9th Feb 2009, 13:38

Madjock & preduk, your logic is baffling.

Here is the ONLY show dedicated to professional flight training in the UK, offering the opportunity for individuals to meet representatives from all of the major FTOs; speak with airline representatives and industry observers, who give up their spare time, free of charge, and you both have the temerity to declare the event a waste of time?

Yes, the FTOs will probably spin you a tale that makes their FTO look the be-all and end-all. What else would you expect from them? A pinch of salt and application of common sense should help one see through their sales pitch.

One of the biggest selling points for the show is the schools who arn't there. They are the ones who get more than enough punters through the door through word of mouth from happy customers. When you phone up they won't be able to give you a start date for a couple of months if not more.

Rubbish. You've got the three largest and most successful FTOs in Europe at the show, alongside a high percentage of the remainder.

Aside from the schools, what about the likes of the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN), who give up their spare time to offer impartial advice and take you through an aptitude test, free of charge?

What about the airline reps who are there to offer impartial advice? Yes, their presentations may be a little dry and in some cases misleading when they state that they don't take ab-initio cadets and then do just that a couple of weeks later, but you need to understand that airlines tend to operate around a two-week time frame when it comes to recruitment, so they can only sing from the company hymn sheet at the time of the presentation. However, there is nothing to stop individuals talking to them after their presentations in order to get a more personal, off-the-record point of view.

Nothing beats research and it is vital that prospective students visit schools and talk to instructors and students before making any sort of commitment, but before going down that route the Flyer show offers a unique opportunity to meet most of the larger FTOs under one roof. Seems a no brainer to me.

Seb, it's a long way to come, but could save you some money in the long run. If you're thinking of undertaking your training with a UK-based FTO then perhaps you could use the show as a starting point of a tour round the UK? The show, at least, should help in figuring out who to visit.

jez

P.S. I have no affliation with the Flyer Show, or any FTO.

Groundloop

9th Feb 2009, 13:52

mad_jock, you will get all those comments if you visit ANY FTO individually.

At least at the Flyer exhibition you get them all at once and, because you here them all say it, you should then be able to recognise what is b*ll and what is genuine:ok:

Obs cop

9th Feb 2009, 18:23

Personally I fear for the significant number of individuals who get sucked in by the hype, and for whom the horrible reality of the potential jobs market is just an uncomfortable truth.

The FTO's (and most are the same I hasten to add) have all had pieces in various flying magazines over the last 6 months saying there has never been a better time to train blah, blah, blah.

They should not be allowed to be irresponsible in using forecasts and predictions to encourage people to spend vast sums of money, simply because they cannot forsee credit crunches, 9/11, vast fuel price fluctuations.

I have never been to one of these fairs as I have never seen the need, but I would encourage anyone who does go to concentrate on facts not spin.

Facilities, pass rates, exam results, accomodation, training costs, fine fill your boots asking as much as you can think of (most of which I would argue could be obtained from the internet or a few phone calls).
Predictions for the most turbulent aviation jobs market in years with the fastest unemployment rise in years, global credit crunch, significant numbers of unemployed qualified pilots need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Would I travel from abroad for it, in my opinion, the cost of the ticket could be far better spent.

Obs

mad_jock

9th Feb 2009, 18:39

The three largest and what you think the most successful which I would disagree with are the worst for telling outright fibs through marketing spin to wannabies.

And you don't get that spin at some FTO's when I choose Leeds it was because when I asked about there students job success they were very truthful about it. I think the words were "the market is a bit w:mad:k just now (it was just after Sept 11th)" said in a macum accent. But your plans a good one about doing the FIC. Talk to the boys over there they have just completed thier CPL's. Have you been told about the crap wx at Leeds yet?

Went up the road to multiflight and got handed a rubbish photo copy of a pricelist everything minus vat. Got made to wait for 20mins to speak to someone. Never was allowed into the inner sanctum were the real students were all sitting around. But you could start in a weeks time.

Back up the road to LFS 3 month waiting list a quick go in the the FNPT I, booked my start date.

But you boys crack on I have learnt over the years that common sense and wannabies don't mix with those special shades you wear. I have been told before I am talking bollocks when it comes to flight training but then again there are still people posting on this forum who were wannabies when I started training. Now I am in the LHS flying the line with the only debt being my morgage and have never been unemployed as a pilot, I did my first trial flight as an Instructor the day my license got delivered.

Fabbe92 if your interested my plan just now would be.

1. Class one medical
2. PPL at Highland Flying school. Or have a look at NewZealand or South Africa.
3. Ground school with Bristol Ground school or Oxford distance
4. Hour building in South Africa or if the exchange rate stays as it is at Highland and take the tomahawk away on a round UK trip visiting all the CPL,IR schools.
5. CPL/IR at which ever suits: Exeter,Tayflight,Tayside, the other lot in Bournemouth not Cabair.
6. MCC with who ever is the cheapest unfortunatley WWW never started his MCC course using 2 beer crates and a couple of broom handels for the sim. But I am sure you get the drift of the the level of hardware required. Its a tick in the box course which most operators don't care what you have done it in.

In 2000-2001 I did all my training including FIC for 35K Now I reckon it will be in the region of 40K if you are canny.

The first lesson to learn in aviation is that you get **** all for free. Those cadet FO's will have been blackmailed into going either by the promise of free food and booze or the slightly naive idea that they will get brownie points with the Ops director. They will learn though that brownie points equal 0.00001p when push comes to shove.

fabbe92

9th Feb 2009, 19:06

I have applyed for BFSAA which will give me the CPL for free if I get in so end of story. I have come to the conclusion that this is the only way since I don´t have the money needed for Oxford. And I want to have money for my TR after training.

But since you think that it is a misstake to go to Oxford integrated etc. What do you have to say to a guy I know who went to Oxford and now work for BMI? Did he do a misstake?:ok:

Cheers:)

mad_jock

9th Feb 2009, 19:34

Well personally I wouldn't do it. BMI and BA never featured in my plans.

But its up to the individual it depends on how much debt he is still in and how much disposable income he has.

If he managed to jump through the hoops of a BMI assessment I suspect that he would have had no probs with any other operators recruitment process and it wouldn't matter how he did his training. Only difference is he is looking at 70k-100k's worth of money to repay, 10-15 years to command and if unlucky the additional hit of paying the cost of living in London. But if he is happy it was the right choice for him.

mad_jock

9th Feb 2009, 20:18

Just to give you a bit of history.

In the old days before JAR Intergrated was a defined product which did allow you to bypass the BCPL to go directly to the RHS of a multicrew commercial aircraft. It was marketed as that and provided what it said on the tin.

After JAR its role in the training industry became very less secure as the license that you gained by doing both routes was exactly the same. A few operators decided to stick with what they knew and continued to recruit from Intergrated graduates only. Over the years econmics have changed and the old boys have retired and the Intergrated schools have lost there old boy networks. Modular graduates have got jobs in expanding regional operators who's training departments were made up of a mish mash of nationalitys and had significantly higher percentage of self improver/modular trained trainers. The old legacy airlines bean counters have worked out its more economic to hire from the regionals from current trained pilots. Again the modular guys do ok if not better and it dilutes the arguments that Intergrated are the best.

The Intergrated schools have now lost the market for the only way to be employed as a sub 300 hour FO. The marketing is getting desperate and some would say unethical.

For about 2 third's of wannabies the choice of where they are going to go is made up by either their parents or their financial situation. There are alot of young kids who really do believe that they will walk straight into a job after leaving integrated and are quite willing to put the whole of the thier familys combined capital on the line.

To be honest the posts I make arn't for these kids. Its the mums and dads who read pprune and the more mature wannabies who have a bit of life experience who can think for themselves. I have met a family who had decided that thier kid wasn't getting their house as collateral for an Oxford loan due to a discussion on PPrune. They were in discussing modular route. The kid was of course throwing a tantrum, it did make me smile when they produce the print out of the thread and the posts which were highlighted were WWW's and mine.

preduk

9th Feb 2009, 20:56

Fabbe,

Come speak to me and I'll introduce you to a guy I know whos flying for BMI on the 145s straight from a modular school.

sebseg

9th Feb 2009, 21:11

Well I figure the best way to make ones mind is to attend the show, being cautious with the schools with too many supersexy models as representatives.

Anyway it will be the perfect place to train my academic English, and I will combine the trip with class 1 medical exam, sight seeing (guess schools are closed on Sunday ?), and a road trip in the countryside to visit schools.

If anyone s interested we could share the drive,

Seb

mad_jock

9th Feb 2009, 21:21

if its 145 he will be working for Regional BMI which is a completley different kettle of Fish to mainline BMI.

Mainline BMI one of the senior Captains involved in recruiting wife used to work at OAT as a ground instructor and it was all stitched up in thier favour. But with the Lufty buyout and other changes it won't be long until they suss out that training low hour pilots is a revenue stream like all the others.

They haven't recruited a single graduate from OAT this year.

By far the greatest employer of oxford grads is Ryan Air which as we know will take anyone with a pulse a license and money for a type rating.

BA is next which is the only company they can honestly say Intergrated has sole access to for intial jobs. But its only 36 jobs.

Then Flybe who are only recruiting direct entry Captains at the moment. And will take modular with no probs at all.

Frankly Mr Shankly

9th Feb 2009, 21:42

Jocko,

"We have a state of the art simulator. No you don't you have a FNPT II and I bet its ****e like all the rest." :D:D

And the bit about the Duchesses, very good. :)

fabbe92

9th Feb 2009, 22:13

Aha so BA only hire integrated pilots:ok:

preduk

9th Feb 2009, 22:15

They only recruit low houred guys from Integrated schools, if you were to build up on your hours with other airlines there wouldn't be any reason for them knocking you back.

yamYamInsty

10th Feb 2009, 08:19

They should not be allowed to be irresponsible in using forecasts and predictions to encourage people to spend vast sums of money, simply because they cannot forsee credit crunches, 9/11, vast fuel price fluctuations.

New poster here....but I am getting more than frustrated at those individuals who are criticising the FTOs for not being able to predict fuel price fluctuations, credit crunches, etc. I wonder how many of these critics are able to forecast next weekend's lottery numbers with the same accuracy??

Propellerhead

10th Feb 2009, 08:35

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with many here. Nothing has really changed in the last 10 years. An integrated course is a 'higher' qualification than modular in the eyes of most airlines. It is still by far the best way if your ambition is to walk out of flight school and straight into a jet job. I know that isn't happening right now but in 2 years time I think it will start happening again. I appreciate that many can't afford integrated, and there are many equally able pilots coming through the modular route, but my advice is if you can afford it and want a conventional airline career, integrated is still best IF you can afford it and won't bankrupt your family if you can't get a job for a couple of years.

Don't forget that in 2 1/2 years time the age legislation will be 5 years old ie) many pilots will be reaching 60 and how many are really going to carry on past 60? Nobody really knows but hopefully many will retire or at least go part time. There will hopefully be a retirement bulge just as the economy picks up and that should mean lots of recruitment. I know it seems a long way off in the current climate but Willie Walsh as publicly said he expects the downturn to last 2 years. Perhaps I wouldn't start training right now but maybe give it a year and aim to graduate in Autumn 2011 and that should be about right I think. In a year's time we should have a better outlook.

Of course if we see more redundancies in the UK between now and then that may slow things down a bit, but fingers crossed we will be able to ride this out.

Also if you look at the number of people who post the same questions over and over again on this forum it shows that the flyer exhibition is a great way for some one considering an airline career to get these questions answered directly by the airlines and FTOs. It's a good place to start your research. So I would advise people to go. And those complaining about spending £8.50 well for %**&%s sake how much are you planning to spend on a course? £50-100k? I think the cost is irrelevant.

mad_jock

10th Feb 2009, 09:44

Can you please list the "most airlines"

The hiring playing field is way more level than you think. And for some surprising company's the playing field has been reversed. Due to the fact that the ex instructors who are usually modular trained have migrated towards the training department. They get roped into the interviews and its human nature when there is no other deciding factors to choose someone with a similar back ground to yourself.

To be honest I would do it myself and not feel guilty afterwards.

I wouldn't go as far as some and filter the CV pile before the CP gets to look at it but it does go on.

no sponsor

10th Feb 2009, 10:25

I went to the Flyer show to see schools for my flying training, and I must say I found it a rather good few hours to spend. Sure, there are those schools who clearly polish their stories, and in my experience they were targeting the parents more than the potential students. I recall sitting with one of the senior Oxford chaps who spotted a well-heeled father, mother and son, and stopped talking to me so he could get his hands on the family. We then re-convened as a group, with me the late 20's guy with the 18 year old who was about to leave school. No doubt he's working for BA today! Make sure you check the ring is still on your finger, the watch is on your wrist, and keep your wallet in your inside pocket after shaking their hands.

It was a great opportunity to meet the majority of schools in a single hall. After meeting them all, I made a short-list and then went to visit the schools in person. I instantly had a rapport with the CFI of PAT, and I did eventually train with the school - no nonesense, no fluff, just straight to the point. It was an opportunity to sort the good from bad, and see the styles employed and figure out if I could get on with their culture. I saw that I wouldn't really get along in OATS as the style and culture would take some adaption - mind you, that's good training for being an FO, as adapting to others is a crucial part of the job! I guess I didn't want to pay for it.

So, it is a good show if you need to see the whole gambit of available training providers, and make your choice.

mad_jock

15th Feb 2009, 18:01

Just seen on another thread that BMI are taking paying pilots to sit in the RHS as cadets as part of a type rating and line training deal.

Wonder when BA will start doing the same thing? 100 wannabies a year at 25k each thats a nice little turn over of 2.5 million a year. Virtually all of that would be profit as well. Sad thing is most of you are daft enough to go for it if you could get the cash together.

Mike.Park

15th Feb 2009, 19:23

What the FTOs don't want you to read

"The Hard Sell
Despite what the schools will often tell you, there is not a shortage of pilots in the industry, nor are there signs of one occurring soon. There may, however, be a shortage of experienced pilots, those who have several thousand hours flying commercial jet aircraft. There is a stark difference between the two, and unfortunately most people who finish their flight training, even from the mainstream schools who claim to have good connections with airlines, often find themselves unable to even apply for the vast majority of jobs because they lack the experience required. This is something which the training schools will never admit to, but you will need to be prepared for.

Bridging the gap between qualifying and gaining employment is fraught with difficulties, and often requires buying expensive additional training in the hope of finding a job. You need to think very carefully before you enroll on a flight training course, and decide whether you can afford to finish the course and not find a job. Getting onto an airline sponsored scheme where a job is offered upon completion may be the safest way, but there will be fierce competition for places on such schemes."

Source: British Airline Pilots Association (http://www.balpa.org/The-Piloting-Profession/How-To-Become-A-Pilot.aspx)

Mikehotel152

15th Feb 2009, 20:23

The Flyer Show is okay for people who haven't the inclination to visit FTOs to see the training set up for themselves. It's a bit like window shopping or choosing an FTO based on the quality of their websites. It's a bit superficial, but some people make all their decisions based on marketing BS.

I don't remember there being more then a handful of Airlines present, if that. I think you'll find Flybe and BA present, which is odd because neither of them take 250 hr pilots except via their affiliated Integrated FTOs, so they're hardly touting for applicants.

The talks by the likes of Ryanair and Netjets are interesting provided you look past the marketing BS.

The RAF, various foreign Modular FTOs, a few Pilot Associations and people like Transair Pilot Shop are usual present.

C-roo

24th Apr 2009, 11:10

I for one am old enough and wise enough to make my own decisions about how, where and when I am going to undertake my flight training!

Frankly, some of the opinions on this thread just say to me that there are a lot of disgruntled people who spend far to much time on this site (500+ posts), stirring up negative cr*p all of the time - do you have nothing else better to do with your lives??

I for one will be attending the flyer show as someone else quite rightly put "its the ONLY dedicated flight training exhibition in the UK" and I also see it as an opportunity to meet a large number of FTO's without having to trek the length and breadth of the country to see them individually!

Granted, I will take the marketing hype with a pinch of salt but as I say, I can make my own decisions and at 8.50 thats just the price of a couple of pints these days.....hardly going to break the bank!

:ok:

scallaghan

24th Apr 2009, 11:15

Hi

Is this show any good for people that have finished the training accept type ratings. i.e. Are the seminars any good for advise on getting a job or interviews etc?

If its a sales pitch of the training organisations, I would assume not but dont know the balance.

Thanks

skyhighbird

24th Apr 2009, 12:10

scallahan,

I think it is a VERY safe bet that no airline will be paying for an exhibition stand to recruit 250hr pilots!

I'm agreement with past posts that what you will find there are FTOs, TRTOs, a few financial stands. And unfortunately good looking blonde girls. So sexist..how about guys for us women!

Groundloop

24th Apr 2009, 14:12

Full details of the show can be found here:-

FLYER Flight Training Exhibition - 25th April 2009 - Sofitel LHR T5 (http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/index.php)

It might help to answer some of the questions being asked above.

Justin Bregar

20th Feb 2010, 09:51

Upcoming Flyer Professional Flight Training Exhibition is on

15th May 2010 - Crowne Plaza, Dublin Santry

Doors open 10.00 - 17.00

The essential exhibition for anyone considering a career as a professional pilot.
Thanks.
________________
Techstore are specialists in a range of Exhibition Stands (http://www.techstore.ie/Design-Print/Exhibition-Stands.html) Services.

Danny

20th Feb 2010, 14:07

I'll be giving a talk at the show and I'm not beholden to anyone for any spin or marketing. I'll be telling it like it is and what you need to consider before taking the plunge.

Mind you, you can get all the info you need here on PPRuNe but for those of you planning to make a career as a professional pilot, you will at least have a chance to talk to a lot of training organizations in one place at one time. As to whether it is all hype and empty promises, that's for you to decide but you'd probably get the same information if you went to visit each one individually.

Over the many years that I've been running PPRuNe, I've had countless emails and messages of thanks for the information that has become available to assist those of you starting out on a career as a professional pilot. What we don't do here and I don't do when I give a talk, is hold back from giving you the information on how it really is and what to expect. You'll get it, warts and all.

I guess I'll see some of you there and others... not! :ooh:

alphaadrian

20th Feb 2010, 16:25

Guys and Gals

Read MadJocks posts over and over again and make sure you assimilate them cos he is, in my opinion, 100% correct in almost everything he says.

Alpha:ok:

fly_antonov

20th Feb 2010, 17:07

Integrated or modular, BA isn' t hiring. For the moment they are firing.

Integrated is better than modular? I thought that the fair was on the 24th of April, not here today.

I' m sure the Pprune founder who posted here will do a great job at warning the people.
Despite that, he can' t go up there and say: please don' t train.
I don' t blame you for that, you just can' t if you want to stand there next year as well.

Naive wannabe' s looking up to the blue blue skies may need to see the skies covered with CB' s and tornadoes before they change their minds.

I think that it would be interesting to go up there with a peaceful group (no hooligans) of jobless pilots, experienced and unexperienced, and give wannabe' s the chance to be told things as they really really are from pilots who fail to secure a job.

Anyone interested to organise?
If you are, PM me. If we get more than 20 people together, I' ll go (even if it were to cost me a little fortune).

Callsign Kilo

22nd Feb 2010, 08:20

To be brutally honest, the time to train commercially isn't now. I know that this may be contrary to all your hopes and dreams, that you some how think that by the grace of god that when you complete training you will become employed. We all think that way when we start out. It's new, it's exciting, it's the beginning of a new chapter where the possibilities seem endless.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to fly for a living. I've been at it for over a year and a half now and i love it. I feel very fortunate to do what I do. However the industry is in absolute tatters. If Danny is giving a talk then it may just be worth going along and paying the £8.50 to listen to what he has to say. It may encourage you to hold on to that training fund which is currently burning a hole in your pocket!