Visa USA - consequences of visa waiver use

[simonwalther]

Hey everyone,
once again now I am in the process of getting a visa to the US (2nd time, now I am getting my IR). Again this is a really, really annoying and expensive procedure for my 20 day stay in the US. I know all the discussions about whether or not you need a visa for flight training in the US as a foreigner. I have decided that I am not going to take the risk (pilots are cautious people, aren't they? :)) and get a visa.

Just now, being in the process of being annoyed with the visa procedures, I was wondering how often it actually happened that someone got himself into trouble for doing a few (2-4?) weeks of flight training on a visa waiver. Apart from all the usual rumors, does anyone have hard facts/actual examples?

Thanks!

[ford cortina]

Never heard of anyone being deported over not having a visa;..............but....do you really want to be the first?:eek:

[suraci]

Would you want to train with an FTO which couldn't be bothered checking your INS and TSA status and was prepared to risk getting caught out on a ramp check?

[simonwalther]

I already wrote that I am just in the process of getting the visa, so I am NOT willing to risk being the first one to be deported. But your answers go in the direction of all the stuff I already read. Lots of posts about what COULD happen. Suraci, the flightschool can train you without a visa. And if the student gets into trouble, that's not the flightschool's problem! The TSA check is not an issue, you can get it without a visa. I know several people who did all kinds of training (with TSA check) without a visa! And, just to serve my curiosity, I'd simply like to know what risk (i.e., not only what can happen, but also the probability of it) I buy myself out of with those €500+ that I will end up spending...

[Keygrip]

I can tell you that, at one point in the height of all the arguing, at least Orlando FSDO decreed that all FAA examiners check the visa status of their flight test candidates, and were prohibited from flying if the documentation was not correct.

It constituted a "fail" and the candidate still had to pay the test fee.

Don't know if it's still happening.

[nh2301]

While I'm the first to advise people that in many cases training can be done without a visa, an IR in 20 days would certainly require one.

The real risk isn't deportation (which would take far longer than 20 days) but a bar on re-entry. For something like this, it could - possibly - be three years, depending on the circumstance in which you are found out and the mood of the immigration officer. It is, however, quite unlikely. You face the same possible penalty for entering the US with a visa for a short course of training that isn't eligible, like a night rating.

TSA checks only make sure you passed inspection on entering the US, and didn't swim here.

[chrisbl]

As has been said earlier, what would you think of an FTO that was prepared to break the law by avoiding the Visa and TSA rules. It probably means that they would be prepared to break every other regulation too.

It may be an inconvenience to you but on the assumption you aim to be a professional pilot someday where rules etc are important, what does it say about you asking the question?

Once we start picking and chosing which rules to follow we have anarchy.

[B2N2]

Entering the US could already be a struggle.
The Immigration....person you show your passport to (with or without a visa) has the ultimate say as to your entry in the US.
If they suspect flight training will be taking place(Breitling watch, Randolph or Ray-ban Aviator, headset in your bag or other dead give-aways) they will deny you entry if you do not hold the visa.

Bit of a stretch maybe, but under certain conditions I'm sure 14 CFR part 61.18 could be applied;

§ 61.18 Security disqualification.

(a) Eligibility standard. No person is eligible to hold a certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part when the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has notified the FAA in writing that the person poses a security threat.

(b) Effect of the issuance by the TSA of an Initial Notification of Threat Assessment. (1) The FAA will hold in abeyance pending the outcome of the TSA's final threat assessment review an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part by any person who has been issued an Initial Notification of Threat Assessment by the TSA.

(2) The FAA will suspend any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part after the TSA issues to the holder an Initial Notification of Threat Assessment.

(c) Effect of the issuance by the TSA of a Final Notification of Threat Assessment. (1) The FAA will deny an application for any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part to any person who has been issued a Final Notification of Threat Assessment.

(2) The FAA will revoke any certificate, rating, or authorization issued under this part after the TSA has issued to the holder a Final Notification of Threat Assessment.


So apart from an Immigration violation which will get you barred, you can also loose all certificates you already hold.

[anti-talk]

Interesting thread.

As a Brit who owns a flight school in the US that is authorised to issue I20 forms for the M1 it always astounds me at how many immigration experts flood this site with spurious information.

The answer is really straightforward PM me and I will give you the answer.
The INS take is the student must be 'legally' in the US.

What is legally in the US for the purposes of flight training, what is a given is the TSA clearance and that IS NOT the FTO's resposibility it is the responsibility of the instructor providing the training to verify his or her student doesnt present a threat to US National Security.

the TSA clearance is very straightforward and to date we have NEVER had a student be deemed as a threat!

[BigGrecian]

A small flight school in Florida, within the last two weeks had TSA/Immigration visit - they gave everyone there 24 hours to have preparation in place to leave the country; and were explicitly warned that if they didn't they would be arrested and deported - which I imagine would incur a ban on entry to the US.
The school was also shut down

They were providing PPL / Night Qualifications / FAA training without visas.

[dhug]

As another Brit that owns a flight school in the USA (California) the regulations surrounding the TSA rules and visa requirements are slowly becoming clearer and thus enforced through cross checking by the TSA and also now examiners. Firstly TSA clearance is required for the Private, Instrument and Multi Engine, (Not commercial unless it's an initial Multi rating as well or adding a night rating). If you already have a private licence and have it foreign licence verified by the FAA then you do not need TSA clearance to fly. The TSA have started checking our paperwork to ensure that the student is legal in the country and also they are starting to check the type of visa verses the type of training. Also the examiners (one in particular) is checking and copying the visa and passport as part of the check ride paperwork.
The TSA process in the USA is now very efficient, we do the whole registration process on arrival and obtain TSA clearance normally within two days. Also the M1 visa issue is becoming a lot smoother as student visa's are now given priority above all other types of visa. I know that the USA system looks daunting but believe me in most cases it's an incredibly straight forward process. Basically if you need training other than recurrent training you need to go to a school that offers M1 visas, period, and there are pleanty of us around.

[overclock25]

When I went to the USA to get my hour building, the policeman asked me about my intentions to stay there, how many weeks and if I already got the fly ticket to go back....He asked me even about the reason, told him that I'm a pilot, "I'll fly in florida, alabama, georgia....." and he told me smiling: "welcome in the States"........ Don't worry guys, european citizens can go up to 3 months without a visa!!!!! :ok:

[simonwalther]

@chrisbl: Nicely put. But:

1. I now write for the 3rd time that I already almost HAVE my visa, so I AM going the safe/law abiding way.

2. If the law was that straightforward, I wouldn't be asking all this. I have done quite a bit of research. If you ask 3 US authorities, you get 4 different answers. For example, the US embassy in Germany (probably as well as the UK one) maintains that you need a visa for all flight training. But the South African one has given a guy I talked to in writing that he can go on a visa waiver (for 14 days of Gulfstream II simulator training). A flight school I was thinking about doing my PPL at two years ago was told by immigration that for a "small course of less than 18 hours a week" the visa waiver can be used. The flightschool had asked specifically for flight training. My knowledge is: If the main purpose of your stay is training, you need a visa. This is the case for me, but it might not be for someone else, who gets, say, a ME rating in 4 days and then adds 2 weeks of holidays...

@BigGrecian: That's the stuff I was interested in. Now, did they differenciate at all between what the students did? I mean, assuming that what I heard about the "main purpose" of one's stay, someone who did, say the ME rating I gave an example above, should have been fine?

@dhug: What about training that does not require a TSA check, such ashigh performance or tailwheel endorsements, or the CPL? How would you think about the ME rating/vacation example? And do you have a specific source of your information?

@overclock25: Hour building is quite a different issue. You (probably) were not receiving training, you were having a holiday in which you, a licenced pilot, flew an airplane...

[anti-talk]

Grecian who was the school - Im very interested to know?
The only school I knew of down here that was shut down (other than Bankruptcy) was indeed a Part 61 school training foreign students but the FBI (not INS/DHS) shut them down for Federal Tax evasion (actually carted the owner off to Jail, apparently it was a large sum of cash owed).

[chrisbl]

simonwalther

My advice is to take the most conservative course of action. That means a visa and TSA registration.

I considered the less than 18 hours routine (advice from US Consulate Services in London) when I did a Commercial certificate but in the end took the visa route to be on the safe side.

It meant I had to go through a narrower range of schools but that was no problem.

But in the end, I wanted to be safe rather than sorry.

Overly cautious maybe.