How long for the runway to unfreeze?

[hightower1986]

Had a trial flying lesson booked in today at Sherbrun in Elmet but the grass is frozen over so cant go:( weather looks beautiful aswell! Anyway i was just wondering if anyone has any clues on how long its likely to stay frozen? Rebooked for thursday but im not holding my breath!

[PilotPieces]

Get the hair dryer out!

[Mark 1]

Frozen ground isn't usually a problem. Certainly better than mud and slush.

I suspect it's more likely due to lying snow, and there aren't any clear limits as to how much is too much.

It doesn't look like the snow's going to melt in the next few days at least.

[hightower1986]

yeah i think i might have to, put the kettle on aswell! the joys of the UK!:sad:

[Pace]

There are a number of factors to consider. The length of the strip? The depth of the snow? and what is under the snow?

It is perfectly feasable to takeoff and land on thin snow even in a heavier twin for more experienced pilots.

If on a runway do try and check the complete length with your car. Check that there is not sheet ice under the snow covering, check the braking ability and the amount of grip available. Double your takeoff and landing distance and go gently on all the controls.

Some pilots are happy to go off snow if the conditions are right others are not.

Pace

[Mike Cross]

Some find taxying challenging (Heathrow yesterday) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7864546.stm) It skidded off the taxiway and buried its noseleg in the grass.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45435000/jpg/_45435726_plane_1.jpg

[Reluctant737]

Generally it's alright to take-off/land in pure snow so long as it's no more than about a 1/3 deep as the diamater of the tyres.

Just a little rule I learnt a long time ago!

But yes, do beware of underlying ice, that can seriously ruin your day. The propwash coupled with torque will try to pull the aeroplane off centre, and if you're on ice, you have no control until there's enough airflow to give the rudder authority.

Not a risk worth taking if you're unsure. Better be safe than sorry, I'm sure there's a good reason for you not going up.

Fingers crossed for next time and enjoy your flight, just be careful, there's a very infections bug that tends to linger around aeroplanes used for trial flights! :ok:

[RatherBeFlying]

I learned to fly on a grass runway in the winter. The operator ran his grader so that the grass tips were just visible. Any more than that and you have to evaluate the entire surface for mini-drifts.

Click the Blog button and scroll to "Flying in the snow on New Years Day 2009" to see how our glider club spent New Year's Day: Learn to fly Gliders at SOSA Gliding Club,Toronto,Ontario,Canada (http://www.sosaglidingclub.com/)

[Cusco]

One problem with snow in the temperatures we've had recently is that in retractables slushy snow can be carried on the tyres into the wheel well where it promptly freezes the gear to the wheel well structures.

If temperatures are below freezing on the ground the wheels may not come down again and that can seriously spoil your day.

Sticky snow can bung up spats in non retractables too, causing instant uncommanded braking.

Snow on runway= seriously consider whether you really want to be flying your SEP.

Cusco.

[Reluctant737]

Ah yes, that's another thing - if you DO fly in weather such as we've been experiencing recently, best to cycle your gear once or twice after take off to try and get rid of what you've picked up.

Ad

[Pace]

With a twin you have differential power which makes a twin especially with counter rotating props easier than a single on the takeoff roll.

Apart from that I agree with the other posters on singles and concerning slush freezing in the wheel wells.

Pace

[RatherBeFlying]

Forgot about that -- Canadian fixed gear a/c fly with the wheel pants off.

The first time you see snow, you remove them and it's rare to see anybody bother to put them back on for the Summer.

[M609]

Agree regarding the pants, another side effect on Cessnas with wheel pants (apart from the unwanted braking) is that slush freezing to ice can actually break the wheel pants when the wheels start rotating on landing, cracking the ice, and in turn the fiberglass.

We fly with pants off ( ;) ) year round, and I was actually taught to never touch the brakes after departure (i.e brake to stop wheel rotation just after take off) when you have slush or wet snow on the runway/taxiway. That way you reduce the chance of the brakes being stuck on landing. Our 76 Cessna had more issues with the original brake kit, the replacement type fitted a couple of years ago is much less likely to seize.

Same thing when parking, don't engage the parking brake if there has been wet snow on the landing gear. It might take some "violence" to get it moving again the next day! :\

[Pilot DAR]

As I recently mentioned on another thread, yes, you certainly plough the wheels through some snow, though it's density will dramatically affect the amount of drag it produces. My personal record is 8" of freshly fallen snow in the 150, with no problem, but, some advice:

(the previous cautions about slush, RG and wheel pants are spot on, and need not be repeated)

Do not use the brakes AT ALL while taxiing through loose snow, if that snow might reach or blow up to the discs. If the discs are the least bit warm from braking, the snow will melt (yes, it becomes a liquid!) and refreeze (unwanted solid again). This will lock the brake pads solidly to the discs, and the wheel will not turn until either thawed, or shocked loose. The problem is, you'll get airborne, and forget this. After a great flight, you'll find a perfectly dry paved runway, and the landing will be exciting, short, cost two tires, and you won't be taxiing to the apron! If you do not touch the prakes at all, they will probably remain below freezing, and yes physists, the snow will not turn to ice, and just blow off harmlessly, and you will continue to look like a great pilot, just one who seems to use a lot more taxiway room! If you anticipate this problem, your only solution is to carry along alcohol (which you might have for deicing fuel anyway) and pour some on the brakes just before you go, but that is a help, not a sure thing. Caution!

Do not land into fallen snow of unknown depth or consistency. There are just too many self apparent reasons to list, for this caution. There are pages to be written on landing safely (or not) on unbroken snow. Even on skis, it can be very challenging!

Do not attempt to land on, taxi across, or takeoff along snowmobile tracks in the snow. They look very inviting, but even an inch of somewhat compacted snow where a snowmobile has passed, will form a layer of snow dense enough to bring many wheel planes to a halt.

Slush thrown up into the extended flaps can prevent retraction. I once slushed up my C150 flaps, and had to takeoff with 40 degrees to get home, because they would not retract much. The next day, I had to fly to a heated hanger, as I had no other practical way to deice them to allow retraction!

Pilot DAR

[liam548]

they mainly use their solid runway 29/11 at sherburn.
Ive had 3 lessons cancelled now at sherburn over the last week due to weather.
:(

[dont overfil]

Noting the cautions already mentioned, dry snow is no bother at all so long as there is little cross wind. Wet snow is to be avoided as there is absolutely no grip whatsoever. Not even enough to do an engine run up, unless you want to do it floatplane style!
DO.