Licence Fraud

[aileron buzz]

Guys here is a story sickening to the stomach. A school in south africa
was shut down last month because apparently they were issuing ppls
to unqualified students, in one incident a student failed to obtain his ppl
from three previous schools and dicided to go to the school in question
where a bribe was made and a ppl was given to the student. Soon after
the student was killed in a plane crash while building his hours for the
comm licence. The unfortunate part was that two other students lost there lives as well as they went along with him on a cross country flight. In another incident the same school recieved a bribe from a nigerian
student who was given a ppl having never gone solo.
A certified engineer also found that their planes were not airworthy.
Do you know of any other school anywhere in the world which
is involved in bribery?
I hope to never share a cockpit with someone who bribed his way through
flight school, that is if they are still alive:=

[ConcernedIR]

Yes, Spanish Instrument Ratings.

Students who some of which work for airlines now, didn't complete minimum hours/training or never flew the skills test, but still left with the instrument rating. :(

[Keygrip]

....but at least the paperwork submitted said they did - so that was alright then.

Provided the paperwork is good, that's all that matters.

An industry of smoke and mirrors.

[African Drunk]

Nothing new in SA. Back in 2000 employees of the SA CAA where under investigation for selling licences PPL/CPL.

[paco]

Don't forget the schools in the US that were doing the same, and I personally know of an incident where somebody became an FAA instructor simply for paying $150.

Phil

[safta]

As one of the leading flight schools in South Africa, we would like to state that the majority of established flight schools in South Africa are honest and highly reputable establishments. There are flight schools who are not in compliance with SACAA regulations and others that have shady financial dealings, but judging by the many threads on this forum, it seems that no country is without dodgy operators.

Our academy was the second flight school that the one Nigerian pilot attended, and after he refused to fly his short solo nav and then went to another flight school, flew the nav with an instructor, and then filled in his log book as having flown solo, we immediately dismissed him from our academy and submitted a report to our civil aviation authority advising them of the dismissal and the reasons.

We run our academy to international standards and so do many of the larger schools in South Africa. Any pilot who has attended a reputable South African flight school or academy will attest to the very high standard of flight training offered in South Africa.

Feel free to PM me with any query if you plan on attending a South African school and are second guessing their reputation.

[White Otter]

When you say that a person failed to gain his PPL from three other schools I assume you mean he wasn't good enough (i.e. he wasn't also trying to bribe them)? If so what kind of person fails the test three times but thinks that they're good enough for license issue and so goes and gets one through the back door. If I failed three times I'd have to come up with a good reason to continue on with training.

[aileron buzz]

believe it or not white otter they are knuckle heads out there
who just dont get it, maybe after failing the skills test 3 times
he refused to believe that he was incapable of flying an airplane
in a safe and competent manner, who knows he could have tried
to bribe the other schools but certainly our freinds at safta rejected
his offer. Just for the record i have flown with south african pilots
and found them to be some of the most gifted pilots around.:ok:
Aileron buzz.

[LH2]

Yes, Spanish Instrument Ratings.

False.

Students who some of which work for airlines now, didn't complete minimum hours/training or never flew the skills test, but still left with the instrument rating

You said that in another thread some time ago, yet never offered any evidence whatsoever.

I do not think I know you personally, so I am not going to prejudge your intentions, motivation, actual knowledge of cause, or experience. So on the basis of not attributing to malice that which can be explained by ignorance, I do invite you to divulge any specific details you may have heard (as I understand that you have no first-hand experience or knowledge of the Spanish flight training establishment). You may do so either publicly on this forum or send me a PM and I'll look into it for everyone's benefit.

I insist on this point: specific details please. That means dates (at least approximate) and places (i.e., names of training establishments) at a minimum.

As I have said in the past, generally speaking Spanish flight training is of a good standard and (again generally speaking) at commercial level it is in my opinion far better than what you can get in the UK. That does not mean that there could not be a bad apple amongst them, perhaps targeting vulnerable foreign students, so I am willing to collate with local contacts and knowledge any information you may have and thus clear up (or confirm!) any "concerns" of yours.

Other than a general statement supporting or disproving your allegations, I will report publicly as much or as little detail as you like. And if it were the case that you wanted to raise your concerns with Spain's AESA, I offer my assistance to liaise with them, again on the basis of local knowledge, and the fact that I speak fluent Spanish.

I do await your response eagerly.

[Nearly There]

Well said LH2, I couldnt be bothered rising to the bait this time from Concerened IR..he seems to like making off the cuff comments regarding Spain, and paint a general picture that this practice is common place across quite a large country with many respected training establishments, when it simply isnt. Maybe it did happen at a less reputable school somewhere, but without him backing up his accusations my guess its chinese wispers he has heard in the local, unless he was the one who never tested?:rolleyes:

[mcgoo]

ConcernedIR if the Spanish training is that woeful, how are these people working for the airlines then?, how did they pass their sim check?, or are the airlines in on the scam too?:ugh:

[hughesyd]

This is an interesting thread of which there is a element of truth to what is being said. I for one have spent a lot of time training in Spain and would generally defend the quality and proffesionalism of some flight schools, but it can just take one to ruin the reputation for all.

So the answer here is Dont judge every FTO on the basis of a bad experience at one, meaning dont judge Spain as a whole.

Long story short, i was booked onto a CPL course at a FTO in Spain. When i enquired 2 days before the course was to start, whether i had to wear uniform for the CPL skills test, i was told on good authority by one of the top guys at the FTO (so there was no misundertanding ) that not to worry, there wasnt really a skills test and that just completing the course was rated as a pass by the spanish authoritys. I had heard before that the owner of the school was well connected with some of the examiners and there maybe something going on.

Now i could have carried on with the course knowing full well that i was going to pass anyway, very tempting!!, but it would have been completely unethical and wanting to pass on my own merits, i cancelled the course.

To put it mildly, i was shocked that this could happen. I looked at the possibility of reporting what had happened to the relevant authority, but proving it would have been impossible. So in a nutshell. this sort of thing does happen, but i will stress once again that i have also had some fantastic training at some FTOs in Spain and one shouldnt generalise.

Do your homework at any FTO you are looking at training with and remember, it can be tempting if ever you hear a ftos standards are below par just to get decent pass rates, but you are selling yourself short and not going to be the best pilot you could be. I imagine some have gained employment and havent been fully up to scratch in the past, but im sure they were at least competant and capable of what went on in the sim test, after all its down to personal development . Hughesyd

[LH2]

Syd,

[....] there wasnt really a skills test and that just completing the course was rated as a pass by the spanish authoritys

I remember that from another post of yours. As I am sure you know, that is not true: a skills test is and has always been required and, while they might be more practically minded and nowhere near as pedantic as in the UK, you do need to show a safe and acceptable standard to pass it.

Now, I do agree with your assertion that one bad apple can ruin everyone else's reputation. There are of course bad schools in Spain just like they also exist in the UK, Norway, and probably everywhere else, that is not under dispute, but out of sheer ignorance some people will extrapolate one particular instance to tar a whole country.

I had heard before that the owner of the school was well connected with some of the examiners and there maybe something going on.

It is a point of contention amongst the local flying community that in Spain, test bookings are arranged by contacting directly a suitable examiner: this in theory raises the possibility of examiners forming a "bond" with certain schools or pilots. In practise, because examiners are very hard to get hold of (the majority of them fly for the airlines as their day job), schools tend to phone around until they find someone who is available around a particular date. Reputable schools will, within the aforementioned availability constraints, try to "rotate" examiners precisely to avoid any improperties.

One advantage of this setup is that examiners who are chronic idiots are pushed out of the system as people choose not to book them. Nevertheless, I recently heard that there are demands by some schools that exam bookings be handled through AESA, in a similar fashion as to what is done in the UK.

To put it mildly, i was shocked that this could happen.

Well, understandably you have not tried, so I guess we will never know whether this would have actually happened or not.

I looked at the possibility of reporting what had happened to the relevant authority, but proving it would have been impossible

Relatively costly and difficult, yes, especially for a foreigner, but not at all impossible. btw, the "relevant" authority here would have been the judiciary as presumably the DGAC (as it was back then) would have been liable to charges too. A quick chat with a competent lawyer, a consumer's group, or even one of the main unions, would have been very advisable.

Anyhow, so which school was that then?

[hughesyd]

LH2, think i have to agree with you on pretty much everything you said. I have actually flown a lot of hours with the school in question when hour building. Generally they have a good set up but i have called into question similar instances of lack of profesionalism.

I think it would be difficult to prove i was offered such a course in the first place as its a case of their word against mine, or a defense of misenterpretation would probobly be raised.

When i first started out in this awful business of flight training!!, like everone else i was overwhelmed with conflicting advise and where to go and how to do it. I decided on this FTO who were offering a "jet first officers course", which you could join if you had a ppl and 150 hours. They claimed to do a ATPL course in english. I did my homework, visited the place and was suitably impressed, so booked on the course.After several calls to confirm start date, i was repeatedly told not to worry and the course would start on the date advised. 2 Months later i packed in everything in the UK, signed a 12 month lease on a apartment and moved to Spain with my Fiance. The start date for the course arrived and passed, being told next week, next week. 4 weeks after the start date was supposed to be, i lost my patience and they finally admitted that there was no such course available in english as previously stated!!. The course as far as im aware is still advertised to this day.

After several rantings as you can imagine, they managed to get me into a neighbouring flight schools ATPL course which actually is one of the best flight schools in Spain, so i did manage to get them done in the end, but boy what a mess!!. I was put in a class of intergrated students, whos classes were every night for 4 hours but spread over a period of a year, not the 6 months as advertised initially. Got them done in the end but you can imagine what a pain this has been.

Why go for the CPL then you idiot?? i hear you shout!!. Good question of which i ask myself what was i thinking at the time. Probobly because after that mess they did bend over backwards to try and redeem themselves and i got some decent hour building out of them. It did cross my mind that this course i was offered was part of the process of keeping my custom!!. You also have to remember that flight training can be a minefield and Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

You get what you pay for in this game!!!!!

As for Giving away the name , its probobly more trouble than its worth at this stage, possibly attracting threads for people who have trained there and feel that i am aiming to "devalue" their acheivments!!.

If you can be bothered, im sure you can work it out from previous threads!!

As i have said before, you cant tar every FTO with the same Brush, and certainly a nation.

[LH2]

If you can be bothered, im sure you can work it out from previous threads!!

No I can't be bothered, but it has "Aerofan" written all over it :}

I knew they were a bit of a joke to say the least, but I didn't know they are now into downright corruption.

I flew about four hours with them, then thought the best of it and effected a rushed retreat. It is one of those places from which I could easily believe they would try to do something like what you suggest.

[hughesyd]

LH2 , you say Aerofan, i couldnt possibly comment!!!;);):ok:

[2close]

I would be very interested to hear what anyone has to say about any other JAA member states' training and examination standards, now that Spain has been given some bad press (deservedly or otherwise - never been there so cannot comment).

[Nearly There]

Spain hasnt been given bad press, a particular school has!

[Shunter]

Names, dates, places, aircraft, examiners please. Back it up, or it didn't happen.

It isn't libellous if it's true....

[hughesyd]

2CLOSE as kindly pointed out by the post below you, and repeated several times in both my posts, the whole point was to seperate a bad experience at a flight school, from generalising about a particular countries training standards.


As for you SHUNTER!! what a ridiculous and pathetic thing to say. I think you need to find a quiet corner and have a word with yourself!!
Of course i made the whole thing up and concocted this elaborate story for effect and my own self gratification!!!!

sometimes i wonder why i bother to even get involved in writing a thread on this website with people like this........................but then i remember why............to try and give a well balanced and honest opinion and personal experiences to people who it may just help in the minefield of aviation training, and help them avoid the pitfalls. The type of advise i wish i had when starting out.

I think it would be time for me to give up contributing any threads to pprune if i ever became a self rightous opinionated ar*$&ole and just slated other people without actually having any experience or idea of what i was talking about.........................dont you think Shunter!!:mad::mad::mad: