Logging Hours

[FrankAbagnale]

Hey, I am interested in building some hours in US this summer.
I have a JAA CPL. I am looking to finish around 50 hours and if someone else steps in, can hire for 100 hours total and go about for a tour of US. Anyone interested, please pm.
Secondly, can the right hand seat person log the hours as P2 ?

[flightlevel1985]

You cant log P.2 in a single pilot ops certified aeroplane.

[DaveD]

If only you could.....

[Superpilot]

Secondly, can the right hand seat person log the hours as P2

Technically you can log it as your flying will be done on the basis of an FAA PPL and there is no requirement to have a separate logbook for FAA/JAA flying. Problem will be that the JAA will not allow it to be used for unfreezing of your license or any currency requirements.

You cant log P.2 in a single pilot ops certified aeroplane.

You can in FAA land. I don't make the rules. That's how the Average American Joe has twice as many hours as as :{

[FrankAbagnale]

:ok::ok::ok: Thanks for the replies

[bfisk]

Well, you can, and you cannot. There are a couple of ways to do it. It's easiest under the FAA.

1) If one of you is an instructor, and the other one is undergoing training for a certificate or liscence, and the student is already qualified to fly the airplane, and the student is "performing the duties of PIC" both may log PIC. Ie, one of you is a PPL holder, and one of you is a CFII, one will give the other one "instrument training".
2) Operating an airplane "under the hood", as may be required for instrument proficiency, requires a rated safety pilot. So say that person A is a PPL IR, nominated to be PIC, person B is a PPL (with or without IR), and acts as a saftey pilot. As a required flight crewmember, this person may now log second in command. (Note: the PIC must be the one under the hood -- if the PIC is the safety pilot, the person under the hood is no longer a required crew member).

3) In JAA-land, at least, a regulator may authorise MPO in a SPA -- a multi-pilot operation in a single-pilot aeroplane. I.e. the Beech 200 "King Air" is a single-pilot aeroplane, however, in my company, we must operate it multi-crew, and the copilot, will log the flight time as such. (The logic being that the copilot is a required flight crew member, required by the regulator, even if not required by the manufacturer).

[nick14]

I thought if flying with an instructor when qualified you must log as PICUS.

Otherwise you would have 2 pilots named as PIC in VFR which is odd to me??

The second scenario sounds sensible.

Nick

[mad_jock]

You can't log PICUS with an instructor onboard. It can only be dual. Unless your on an intergrated course.

Don't be conned into believing you can. There is a load of bollox's out there about logging check rides as PICUS.

If you do and your bang on your hours PIC for CPL issue you will just be sent the whole lot back and told to get more PIC time.

[BigGrecian]

MadJock complete trash regarding skills test; I did and many other of my student friends logged it as PICUS.

For all of you VERY lazy people above please consult Section A Appendix B of LASORS Page 44/45.

Case J applies to skills tests.

[bfisk]

Mad Jock: do you have any experience flying under FAA rules? The entire world does not operate on JAA rules. Refer to 14 CFR 61.51 "Pilot Logbooks".


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;


[...]
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.


And, if I might add: I worked as a flight instructor in the US under FAA regulations for about 1500hrs, finishing 36 students. That includes quality checking their documentation and paperwork. Neither any pilot examiner nor the FAA (through the FSDO, who came to do checkrides every so often) had any problem with this interpretation, which seemed to be the norm for everyone.

[mad_jock]

Did I mention Skills test NO. I mentioned check rides which are not the same as an LST or a CST. Check rides can be done by an Instructor, LST and CST must be done by a CRE or PPL examiner. So if you go for a pre hire check ride YOU CANNOT LOG IT AS PICUS. If you go to the US and do the BFR it is logged as dual.

Did Nick mention flying with an examiner NO.

And as the orginal poster has a JAA CPL and comes from London I suspect he won't give a toss about FAA rules. And I suspect he will care more about them than I do.

[BigGrecian]

The term "check-ride" doesn't exist in either FAA or JAA at all legally that's why - in slang people refer to a skills test (in JAA) or practical test (in FAA) as a check ride

For what it's worth; the poster is obviously after JAA rules not FAA; he would be hour building in the USA towards JAA requirements/licences

[bfisk]

Well, the thread starter asks about flying in the US... and last time I checked, that would then be goverened by FAA rules.:bored:

[mad_jock]

Well you learn something new everyday, a check ride is a skills test. Personally I think's that's pure bollocks, never heard it used like that in my 2 years of training or in the 2 years I worked as an instructor. And the last 5 years flying the line.

The logging of his hours will be for his JAA CPL so has cock all to do with FAA.


Right lets start another JAA, FAA debate. If I say tyres are usually black no doudt the FAA guys will say they are white and white tyres are so much better than JAA black ones.

[Airsey]

Ok since we're talking about logging flight times here, I'd like to ask a question also. The company I fly for tell us to log standard block times for our flights. We only really have 3 major destinations, nothing too far, but is this logging of standard block times allowed? For example, if a flight is 31 minutes chocks on to shutdown, and the standard block time is 35 minutes, are you able to log the 35 minutes as per what the company say? Or should you follow your gut and log the 31?

[BEagle]

It's fairly simple...

No matter where you fly, if you want to claim time towards a JAR-FCL licence, log your actual flight time in accordance with JAR-FCL requirements. Which you can find in LASORS.

If you want to claim time towards an FAA licence, log your actual flight time in accordance with the relevant Yank document.

Anything else will be an expensive mistake!

Logging 'standard block times' is probably some trick dreamed up by accountants. And it's UTTER bolleaux which would invalidate your personal flying logbook outside the third world.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

[Airsey]

Yeah I was thinking to follow the gut instinct. Its odd though because every year 1 or 2 pilots are sent to the US to get their ATP's done, and they come back with no problems regarding their flight time in their log books. I guess if their time adds up to the company records then it works out. Its a shame though, could have been squeezing in those few extra hours ;)

[mad_jock]

And don't try and fiddle the taxi times either. It really does piss the Captain off if they discover an enterprising little turd has been logging you off chocks early and on chocks later than you actually are.

On a spritely turn round you get the question how did you mange to come off chokes on your third sector before you came on chocks for your second from ops. And I always round down at the start to nearest 5 and up for on chocks is cheating as well.

Your company may have permission from thier flight ops inspector for you to log block hours. Its a fiddle to make it easier to work out roster FTL's. Again cheating if you ask me. And dodgy as hell if they are doing it with Airframe hours

[Airsey]

Yeah I just use the departure time as given by ATC and minus 3 minutes for taxi time, 5 minutes for first flights due to engine runs, and then use the engine shut down time as on chocks. I haven't had any problems with it so far, so hopefully all should be well. Thanks for the response fellas. :ok:

[mad_jock]

Sounds reasonable.

Sorry just noticed ATP you must be FAA I know nothing about FAA FTL's so better check if that fiddle is ok under there rules. Fiddling the taxi times I presume isn't under both systems ;)

[Airsey]

Nope I'm JAA, only one in the company for the domestic sector with a JAA actually. Everyone else does their ATP's in America but eventually I will have to do mine either in UK or or they get an examiner to come down to Sey and do one here (if im rated on something heavier than a Twotter by that time). I know the taxi time fiddling is "wrong" but it always adds up to the captains times, plus the chief captain and flight ops manager has all the PDFS forms to back up the times. So I'm hoping I would be ok if the CAA wanted to check with the company to see if my times are legit. We'll see what happens later on down the line!!! Can't see it being an issue though. Anway sorry to steer this thread down a different direction!!! :E

[mad_jock]

As the FO if your log book replicates the times submitted by your Captain in thier voyage report and the CAA or FAA takes exception to the companys practise. They will have bigger fish to fry than spanking a FO's bum for thier log book.

To be honest as long as you don't apply for your ATPL bang on the min hours or very near it they don't seem to look at your log books to closely. I applied with at least 10% over all requirments and got the ATPL by nearly return post.

[chrisbl]

Mad Jock says:
Right lets start another JAA, FAA debate. If I say tyres are usually black no doudt the FAA guys will say they are white and white tyres are so much better than JAA black ones.

Not they would not worry about the colour of the tires, just the spelling:)

[nick14]

I have always logged pre hire checkouts as PICUS, as instructed by the instructors.

Successful flight tests as PICUS.

Is this wrong??

[flightlevel1985]

I logged my latest checkout as P.u/t , as instructed by the instructor

[mad_jock]

Don't be conned into believing you can. There is a load of bollox's out there about logging check rides as PICUS


Unfortunatley you can't. Why can't the CAA put something into Lasor's about this. Maybe they just like sending applications back.

[madlandrover]

I have always logged pre hire checkouts as PICUS, as instructed by the instructors.

Successful flight tests as PICUS.

Is this wrong??

As stated in a few threads so far...

In JAR land:

A successful flight test should be logged as P1S. A partial pass is logged as P/UT (you have not satisfied the requirements to command the flight), with the successful retest as P1S.

Any other training flight (training for a licence, rating, mandatory differences training, the biennial flight with an instructor, or a familiarisation checkout required by schools/clubs to hire aircraft) is P/UT.

Ultimately, who's signed for the aircraft and is responsible to the owner if it goes wrong? If it's you then you're P1. If it's an instructor then he's P1. If it's an examiner then it depends how it goes :E