View Full Version : A380 Etops


nooluv
25th Jan 2009, 19:13
Heard a rumour that an A380 had a double engine shutdown over the Atlantic?

Not sure if this rumour is true, but if it was,“ Would this type of aircraft be subject to ETOPS rules due to the lack of suitable runways available for emergencies”?

Regards nooluv..



Buzz Control
25th Jan 2009, 19:23
ETOPS is an acronym for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards, an International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) rule permitting twin-engined commercial air transporters to fly routes that, at some points, are farther than a distance of 60 minutes' flying time from an emergency or diversion airport with one engine inoperative.

This rule allows twin-engined airliners—such as the AirbusA300, A310, A320, A330 and A350 families, and the Boeing737, 757, 767, 777 and 787 and TupolevTu-204 —to fly long-distance routes that were previously off-limits to twin-engined aircraft. ETOPS operation has no direct correlation to water nor distance over water. It refers to single-engine flight times between diversion airfields—regardless as to whether such fields are separated by water or land.

Hopefully this answers your question on ETOPS. The A380 bit im not answering :ugh: :ok: Exits left...................:cool:

nooluv
25th Jan 2009, 19:33
Yeah thanks buzz . I meant would it be subject to similar rules to etops..
because of lack of suitable runways for an a380..

gusting_45
25th Jan 2009, 19:34
A380

ETOPS - Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.

Last time I saw one the A380 wasn't a twin.

Airports that are all supposed to be A380 compatible by the end of this year. Make your own mind up if the gaps between them all give 60 minutes flying time.

San Francisco (SFO)
Los Angeles (LAX)
Montreal Dorval (YUL)
New York Kennedy Intnl. (JFK)
New York Liberty Intnl (EWR)
Miami (MIA)
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG)
Frankfurt (FRA)
London Heathrow (LHR)
Jeddah (JED)
Dubai (DXB_
Karachi (KHI)
Bangkok (BKK)
Kuala Lumpur (KUL)
Sydney (SYD)
Melbourne (MEL)
Auckland (AKL)
Narita (NRT)
Hong Kong (HKG)
Seoul (ICN)
Chicago(ORD)
Memphis (MEM)
Anchorage (ANC)
Zurich (ZRH)
Munich (MUC)
London Stansted (STN)
Amsterdam (AMS)
Doha (DOH)
Osaka (KIX)
Colombo (CMB)
Beijing (PEK)
Shanghai (PVG)
Taipei (TPE)
Brisbane (BNE)
Jakarta (CGK)

nooluv
25th Jan 2009, 19:50
Yes I Know an A380 has 4 engines. But if you shutdown 2 this puts you in a position of where you might need to be using etops rules.
P.S. none of those airports are within 60 minutes flying time of just left of Greenland..

CargoOne
25th Jan 2009, 19:54
nooluv

For diversion/emergency purposes A380 can use much wider choise of airports. Runway requirements for A380 are not exceeding 747 requirements.

nooluv
25th Jan 2009, 19:59
Thanks Cargo one. That answers my question.
Hope the rumour wasn't true.......:E

ROKNA
25th Jan 2009, 20:11
A380 visited Shannon for crosswind landing trials early on in the test program.

Shannon of course is a top choice for a diversion when over the Atlantic

Carbon Bootprint
25th Jan 2009, 20:19
I believe the A380 compatability list is largely designed to describe terminal and ground handling capacity, rather than runway capability. Obviously there are are any number of military and civil airports with long enough runways to support use in an emergency (or other necessary) diversion of an A380. Sorting out the ground issues would be another kettle of fish, but at least the pax are on the ground if need be...

blueloo
25th Jan 2009, 20:53
I thought 4 eng jets will be subject to ETOPS certification in the not to distant future.

ETOPS whilst currently applying to twin engine jets - covers more than just flying on 1 engine for 180 mins (or whatever limit has been applied to a fleet) - but covers cargo fire suppression, electrical generators, hydraulics etc.

I understand 747s and older types may be granted grandfather rights to continue operations as they are.

ETOPS will then be called (as occasionally as it is now) EROPS extended range operations, or EDTO extended diversion time operations.

ferrydude
25th Jan 2009, 21:17
" I thought 4 eng jets will be subject to ETOPS certification in the not to distant future.

ETOPS whilst currently applying to twin engine jets - covers more than just flying on 1 engine for 180 mins (or whatever limit has been applied to a fleet) - but covers cargo fire suppression, electrical generators, hydraulics etc.

I understand 747s and older types may be granted grandfather rights to continue operations as they are.

ETOPS will then be called (as occasionally as it is now) EROPS extended range operations, or EDTO extended diversion time operations."

Correct. FAA has already changed the definition of ETOPS, "twin" is no longer part of it. ETOPS= Extended Operations.

Applicable to ALL aircraft based on number of minutes from an available alternate, regardless of the number of engines installed

rjtjrt
25th Jan 2009, 22:14
gusting_45
Your list - don't see SINGAPORE. Must be a typo. Any others missing?

VAFFPAX
25th Jan 2009, 23:01
Missing JNB from the list too... which has been able to handle the A380 (landing) since 2006, and the stands for the A380 (4 stands) will be ready for the FIFA 2010 World Cup.

S.

Back Seat Driver
25th Jan 2009, 23:11
Nathaniel McInnes / Just wondering. How long in ft would a runway have to be to support normal operating takeoff/landing and emergency landings of an A380?
On a 'standard ICAO day' - ie. wind calm, 15 deg.C ,Dry, Sea Level.
@<hidden> (569 tonnes) TOGA / FLEX = 2,574m / 3,095m
@<hidden> (391 tonnes) with no failures, LDG Dist with Brake Mode Manual (max) / LO (STD) =1,284m / 1,883m :ok:
Nat - you'll have to convert those numbers to feet yourself. I'm purely a metric man.

Huck
25th Jan 2009, 23:40
You sure it isn't Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim?

Fly3
26th Jan 2009, 00:42
I believe that the A340-500 operated by SIA on their ultra-longhaul routes over the pole are kinda ETOPS limited to 4 hours from a diversion airfield but it has nothing to do with the engines as they have four. It is a limit imposed by the cargo fire suppression which only lasts for 240 minutes.

Left Coaster
26th Jan 2009, 04:39
Believe it's now termed EROP's... R is for RANGE...Fire supression time driven I'm told.

tightcircuit
26th Jan 2009, 08:00
Nooluv,

Going back to your original point and considering only engines. I believe the regulators only ever account for a single failure when developing rules. After all what set of rules are you going to develop for a twin engine a/c if you consider multiple failures?

If something happens on the day that is outside the scope of the rules then that is when the crew start to really earn their money.

TC

Yipoyan
26th Jan 2009, 10:13
Holders of the latest edition of B747-400 FCOMs will find a new section labelled ETOPS. All QRH information pertaining to 2 Engine Inop has been moved to this section.