Seniority Lists - Yes/No??

[legacy]

I'd like to get your thoughts on company seniority lists. Do you think this is a successful procedure to impliment or would it be better not to have one?

Your constructive input and opinions will be apprecaited...

thanks!:ok:

[bianchi]

SHORT REPLY: It"s the only way to go !! I think you only realise the importance of a seniority list once you are on the list,climbing the ladder and working your way to the front.

Just is just my very humble opition on it !! Safe flying............now I will logoff PPRUNE for another 4 months + !!! :ok:

[Der absolute Hammer]

Then what you must do is to consult the ex BA, (a seniority airline), Captains at Easy Jet which is a meritocracy.
It is not such an outdated stupid idea. Fred Goodwin could use some basic banking training? Not so?

[snotneus]

The problem with flying is with what yard stick do you measure our performance for a promotion?
How seldom you divert or how often you accept late pax? (factors we have no control over). How many hours we fly per month? (factors we have no control over) Perhaps how much fuel we use? (compared with what)
The only acceptable measurement we really have is seniority and meeting the minimum requirements. After that the commandability test.
Just think how upset you'll be if you have been with your company for a while and now they employ someone from the outside with 1 hour more in their logbook and then give them command, because they have more experience than you.
Unfortunatly in aviation we use very different measurements than in any other occupation.
suitcaseman, if you want to be measured like a bank manager, you should have chosen a different job.
I agree fully, it is blind if you have 10k+hours and join a different company as co-pilot. You will prob. then have captains with less hours than you. That is why an airline needs longevity salary increases.
The only people that tend not to like seniority lists are:
a. management that want to promote their buddies (or not promote a non-buddy)
b. job hoppers

[Carrier]

Quote: "The problem with flying is with what yard stick do you measure our performance...."

Did you buy your licences and ratings from some corrupt jurisdiction? Most civil aviation agencies and companies manage to measure pilots' capabilities and performance, either in an aircraft or a sim. It's a normal procedure! Just as elsewhere competent and ethical employers are also able to identify other skills: who does the job safely, legally, efficiently, respectful towards colleagues, reports for work on time, does the considerable paperwork correctly and neatly, dresses neatly in correct company uniform, pitches in to help others where needed (eg help load bags) etc.

True seniority comes from merit, not antiquity! As stated above, this is an outmoded concept that seems to be unique to aviation. It was put in place by unscrupulous employers (and is accepted by dumb employees) as it offers a major benefit to employers. It obstructs what should be one of our basic rights - mobility of labour. In the free world if you are not happy with things at your present employer then you look around and move at the same level or better to another employer, for better pay or conditions. Your old employer loses staff and has to adjust to the market to retain employees. Seniority removes this and enables the employer to offer the very minimum in cash and respect that it can get away with.

[legacy]

Suggestion/Though:
Lets say each position (pilot's seat) is advertised as a seperate job (no list). Would this not be more fair because the employer (as with any position) would look for the best candidate - hours/experience/etc. and not necessarily just the "next in line" - who might not meet up to the requirements aor could possible not hande for example a Captain's seat?

I've heard of some guys just "waiting" their turn - for when their ship comes in - and therefore make no effort to better themselves or move from a comfort zone because "it's coming my way anyway". In my opinion this could up the standard of pilots/flying - not that I'm doubting anyone - but there's always room to do better..

Shouldn't it be as with any job offer - may the best man get it?

[flux]

You said it carrier! If you are unhappy, move. Seniotity lists are the best way of doing things in an airline. Get's my vote.

[skychick2]

Do you think this is a successful procedure to impliment ......................

ANSWER : YES !!!

[Avi8tor]

We have thrashed this topic to death. Its real easy.

The guys at the bottom of the seniority list think its a bad idea and the guys at the top think its great.

Having seen the mess RF made at Link when he tried to bypass the seniority list with the ERJ and all the nashing of teeth and tearing of cloth that it caused. What was really funny to watch was the guys that joined were so VERY anti till THEIR commands came up and how it was SO unfair if THEY got bypassed.

[legacy]

Well it seems like a 50/50 thing. I can understand that guys at the bottom think negatively about it.

My opinion: There should not be such a list - only creates confusion and unhappiness when the company expands (link Airlink) and the list does not really make sense with the different AC types, etc.

Thanks for the input guys!:ok:

[phydeaux]

Airlink is just a prime example of a badly managed airline.

OUCH!! Thats gonna hurt

[legacy]

PLEASE - don't make this an Airlink issue AGAIN! (just stopping it before it starts - there are threads about airlink)

Are there airlines with different ac types running a seniority list that works - without complaints?

[Avi8tor]

My opinion: There should not be such a list - only creates confusion and unhappiness when the company expands (link Airlink) and the list does not really make sense with the different AC types, etc.
What caused the nashing of teeth and the tearing of cloth was the fact that the seniotity list was not followed. I am not saying seniority is ideal, but its a whole lot better than not having a system.

Are there airlines with different ac types running a seniority list that works - without complaints? Yes, pretty much every big airline in the world. The only people that don't like the system are those that dont like being at the bottom of the list.

......but still take direct entry commands successfully.DEC's have nothing to do with seniority. If there are no suitable pilots for promotion inside the company, of course you taking in DEC's. Just they fit onto the bottom of there seniority system.

Not sure what the gripe with seniority is, as its a system that rewards loyalty to the company.

[legacy]

gee wizz Suitcaseman! Getting a bit touchy there? Since I started the thread to get more info on this, I thought it best to keep to the topic - notice the REQUEST...

Whenever someone starts something like this it always seems to move towards all the Airlink politics.:ugh: I have not seen the other threads on this subject and will certainly look them up and read the other comments there too (now that I know about them) - so my appologies for boring you with this again!:p

I am interested in YOUR views on the subject since I don't fly for a commercial airline - hence the initial request for constructive and positive input - and therefore, what is so obvious to you might not be to me...

chill out bro!:)

Avi8tor: Thanks for your comments and input. It seems my understanding of a seniority list was not entirely correct - you gave me a different perspective...:ok:

[legacy]

Suitcaseman.. I found your thread about the topic (2007) and have read through it .. got some good info there... thanks!

[WDaron]

How would you put a seniority list on Naturelink or ET or Qwila, where so many things OTHER than seniority factor in advancement: old boys network, willingness to put up a bond to advance in aircraft, or better locations on smaller aircraft such as Stickerlink and the E120s in Sao Tome.

[Avi8tor]

always seems to move towards all the Airlink politics.Sadly these things do tend back towards Airlink, for one reason. From '95 till around '01 RF had his digit truly extracted. The man did just about everything right. You have never seen such a bunch of happy campers in your life.

Then management turned to the 'dark side'. And now Link is a study in how NOT to do it.

where so many things OTHER than seniority factor in advancementHell yes, but that applies in all airlines. Fleet Locks, base locks, training bonds etc.

The system works for a reason. We are all equally qualified and one assumes all equally able to do the job. Seniority allows the guys and girls to plan their career progress in an airline. Seniority takes the brown nosing/old boys network out of play.

[308GT4]

I smell skulduggery here, and management. (Trying to assuage their conscience for wrong doing?)
Surely, when you select a pilot, in an AIRLINE, you select a potential Commander? Then when you need the position filled the next man IN LINE is evaluated! If he does not meet prescribed (as in published!) criteria, the position is then offered to the next man. (Kitchen.... :ouch:) JOKE!!
If he/she is washed off command course, it is done by an external examiner. (External, i.e. Air France/Lufthansa DE from far away....)
However, Earnest K Gann's system is definitely faulty if you need your "Buddy" to be expedited into the LHS.......
We've just had/(having), a huge problem with the world's economy due to "modern methods" of doing business......... One "modern" maxim in the workplace is: If you're longer than two years in one employer, you're going backward. ~ I seem to feel that Pa and Grandpa etc lead a far richer life than what we try and force upon ourselves today.
Yes, if you have golden hand-cuffs today, it is a problem-----for YOU only! Tough! Look around at the blokes who take the leap (go to the bottom of the dreaded ladder) and see how well they actually are after another say, 5 years???
Within one 'institution' you have 2 distinctly different systems. Both examples mentioned place being Spoories and Mango. Now at the former you do your time. Dad did..... your friend from 1 Squadron did (Just winding you up!) but he joined a day earlier than you, now 3 years later he has been a captain for 3 years already and no slot for you. Up to the moment he got command you were happy with the system. NOW suddenly you find argument?:=
I recently asked a training captain at Mango "How does your system work?" He explained. I then said "So, if you bump heads with a significant single person en route, you ain't gonna see command?" Shoulders were shrugged. Period!:ouch:

[legacy]

:ok: now we're getting somewhere...

A point system sounds like a good idea - the only down side I see is if management or someone doesn't like you they might not allocate you the deserving points you might earn on experience etc.

Again- I agree with "the best man for the job" - when a position is available, advertise and do the interviews of applicants. As with any position, internally advertised first, then look external. Perhaps a seniority "list" could be kept simply for "seniority in service to the company" etc - not determining your next position, but will be used when allocating leave (if you need to bid for leave over the typical holiday season) or similar situations .. or who gets the front seat in the crew bus.. (JOKE!)

Whatever the use, I think companies could use such a list wisely and benefit both sides - but I wouldn't use it to just shift someone into the LHS when he's number is up...

my 5 cents worth.;)

[nugpot]

As said before, a search on PPRuNe for seniority will get you a lot of hits. It has been discussed A LOT.

I am going to be lazy and just cut an paste my thoughts from a previous thread about seniority. In this particular case, it was about direct entry command:

There are merits to both sides in this argument.

My 2 cents. We are in one of the only jobs in the world where experience probably outweighs ability, certainly in the LHS. You can be a very good/safe captain without being the world's best pilot. The inverse is also true.

One thing about a seniority list and the avoidance of DEC, is that the people in the LHS are used to company procedures and routes and are known to the company. There are also years of flying in the RHS where ingrained errors/behaviours/high risk characteristics can be identified and addressed.

Sure, it is not a perfect system, but it is very difficult to measure command ability, even in the sim and that is unfortunately what you need to measure if you move to a merit based system. Flying ability counts for very little in the LHS (obviously there is a basic minimum requirement for stick and rudder skills, but most pilots have that by the time they get command).
Shouldnt experience and hard work be rewarded?
Unfortunately hard work does not make you a good captain, and neither is flying hours a true and honest measure of experience. The safe way for an airline or other large operator to avoid expensive mistakes in upgrades, is an apprenticeship phase (as FO). This just happens to correspond to the warm and fuzzy feeling provided by a seniority list for people already in an airline.

So, a good compromise all around.

BTW, there are two kinds of people I have never met:
1. A man who did not think that he was at least an above average car driver.
2. A pilot that did not think he was at least an above average stick and throttle man and would make an excellent captain.

and

Seniority not only protects incumbent pilots. It also protects the company, because pilots have a vested interest in the company. They want to stay in the company to move up the list, so it is in their interest that the company does well financially.

[Glassos]

I work for a major US airline. We have over 5,000 pilots. A seniority list is the only way to manage a list of this magnitude. It also ensures that when your number comes up for command you're damn well ready. Seniority list dictates choice of bases, vacations, equipment. The downside to a seniority list is that in a period of stagnation there are no command upgrades.

Of course opportunities exist for those with management aspirations to become training captains and eventually managers. A major benefit to a seniority list, in my view, is that you don't have to kiss ass to get ahead. And, as the old saying goes, those who can fly, fly! Those who can't - manage!

[Avi8tor]

So someone who plods along, doing the absolute minimum may get promotion, increase etc, before another pilot who is top class, experienced and goes the extra mile.The problem with modern airlines is they want just that. They want somebody to just plod along. Jut stick to the SOP and company rules and all is well. Remember its about NOT scratching the paint.

When a 10K hours captain moves to another airline and starts as an F/O he is certainly more qualified and able than the brand new cadet with the seniority number one above himWhen the commands come up as long as the cadet meets the minimum requirement, he gets the job. If not, then you go down the list to you find somebody that does. A 3000hr pilot can stick to the FCOM and SOP as well as a 13 000hr one.

Hence the lesson here is that a 10 000hr captain has to think VERY carefully before he moves.

[Carrier]

Quote: “......the only down side I see is if management or someone doesn't like you they might not allocate you the deserving points.....”

This happens in other occupations. Nothing is perfect. People just find jobs elsewhere. Those in other occupations manage to overcome this occasional problem. Why should it be such a problem in aviation? Are most “airline” pilots so dumb that they cannot solve such a problem as easily as those who choose to go into other occupations? Poor little dears!

Pilots are not the only employees of air operators and their suppliers and sub-contractors. Are there “seniority” lists for technicians, engineers, baggage handlers, loaders, fuelers, ticket sellers, marketing staff, caterers, dispatchers, cleaners, management, etc? How do you think such people manage to get pay raises, promotions, vacations, health benefits, pensions, etc? Wake up pilots! As a group you are not coming across as professional, intelligent or capable of surviving let alone doing well in a competitive free market environment.

In a free market employment environment with no “seniority” lists employees who are not reasonably happy where they are just look for another job. They move to another employer, usually at an equal or even higher level. Airline pilot is about the only occupation that has killed mobility of labour. Throwing off the shackles of serfdom and slavery was won over the centuries at great cost. How ungrateful of “airline” pilots to ignore this and spurn such freedom!

[Glassos]

Are there “seniority” lists for technicians, engineers, baggage handlers, loaders, fuelers, ticket sellers, marketing staff, caterers, dispatchers, cleaners, management, etc?

Yes! In the US anyway.

With the exception of 'management', which is the adversary of labour, and the really unskilled labour like caterers and cleaners, whom are normally contracted services, most of the groups you mentioned above are represented by unions which generally view seniority as a sacred cow.

Management does not like the seniority system because it removes the opportunity to whipsaw employees against each other.

Judging from the tone of your post, I'm guessing that you're either management or a management wannabe!

[Glassos]

Rubbish! It's not the only way, just currently the most common and therefore accepted way. There are a number of large airlines that dont have a seniority list but still manage just fine. Ryanair would be one example.

Rubbish yourself! Equating Ryanair with a real airline job is asinine. They are the most employee-unfriendly airline out there. The only reason they had no seniority and had to hire DEC's was because of their high employee turnover! The only people who don't like a seniority list are management, mangement wannabes and Johnny-come-latelys!

[Glassos]

Actually, 'my' airline has never been bailed out by the government. But, nice try at changing the subject!

Actually, it seems that you have a lot of heartburn over the seniority issue, and have posted several scathing attacks on the concept. From that I must conclude that you have some personal experience which has soured you on the seniority concept. I sense that nothing I might say to you, will convince you otherwise.

However, for those who are open-minded, and have yet to experience a seniority based system I would like to reiterate what many posters on here have already said.

There are pros and cons to the system, mostly based on how far you have progressed up the 'ladder. Unfortunately, airline management is rarely benevolent so we can't rely on them to do the right thing. So, from a worker bee perspective, seniority is the fairest way to level the playing field. It largely prevents management from manipulating it's pilot group.

Some have suggested that a seniority system allows unqualified personnel to progress, and I reject that completely. A rigid selection process ensures qualified pilots are hired, and a structured ongoing educational process ensures uniformity across the pilot population. Most airlines have a professional standards peer pilot group which counsels pilots who stray from the straight and narrow.

It's very rare for a pilot to be terminated for a violation of the regs or a accident/incident. In fact, at my airline, most of the very few pilots get that do get terminated, are for issues unrelated to their flying skills - sexual harassment , abusing sick leave or other absenteeism issues, or drug/alcohol abuse.

[Glassos]

How about Spoories introducing a system where you could get command after say, 5 years, in the best interest of the airline of course. That way you could get the ratio of captains of colour quickly remedied, all under the guise of competency and "most suitable pilots", of course.

Interesting concept with one major flaw. Most airlines are approximately 50% Captain/50% First Officer. To upgrade after 5 years, the airline would essentially have to double in size every five years or suffer extreme attrition at the top.

[Avi8tor]

That's strange. I know a lot of Ryanair pilots and they are all rather happy with their jobs.And I know alot that aren't. Funny that EK doesn't seem to get many BA captains applying, I wonder why?

As a good friend of mine always say:- "believe NOTHING that you read and only half of what you see".

[maxrated]

Some people here imagine that a seniority system protects them from being abused by management, however I'm sure we all can think of a number of fellow pilots who have still been screwed over in other ways despite the existance of secure seniority lists, cr@p simm/check rides being only one example of how easy this is to happen.

The problem with seniority lists , like any military hierachy, is that it also allow's completely dysfunctional and personality deficient people ( even though they may be technically qualified) to get into positions of enormous power and authority,( enabling them to make everyone else's life unpleasant), simply because they are in the system.

[Glassos]

The problem with seniority lists , like any military hierachy, is that it also allow's completely dysfunctional and personality deficient people ( even though they may be technically qualified) to get into positions of enormous power and authority,( enabling them to make everyone else's life unpleasant), simply because they are in the system.

I disagree with the basic premise of your contention. The military hierarchy is not seniority based, it's based on competence (ostensibly). But, as an ex-SAAF jock, we all know the type of personality it took to get ahead in the military. And it had nothing to do with your competence as an officer or pilot!

A seniority list, almost by definition, takes that 'personality' factor out of the equation. It is based purely on when you were hired and ability to meet and maintain a pre-determined standard of competence.

My experience of seniority lists is based on my experience of being a pilot for a major US airline for the last twenty three years. When a pilot goes into management, he is no longer considered part of the seniority list. Yes, he keeps his number in case he ever goes back to the line. In effect, he is trying to get ahead independently of his seniority on the list. So, in many ways, management pilots are not unlike ambitious military officers.

But for the majority of pilots making their way up the seniority list, the system works remarkably well. Everything is dictated by seniority. Seat, equipment, trips, bases, vacation, days off, and so forth. After devoting twenty three years of my life to this company why should I not be better paid, fly bigger jets, or have more days off than the guy who was hired last year?

The seniority system works remarkably well if you plan on making a career out of a particular airline. I suppose it matters less if you're just building time.

[Glassos]

Some people here imagine that a seniority system protects them from being abused by management, however I'm sure we all can think of a number of fellow pilots who have still been screwed over in other ways despite the existance of secure seniority lists, cr@p simm/check rides being only one example of how easy this is to happen.


And, by the way, I do agree with the fact that a seniority system doesn't always protect you. Fortunately, a decent union can protect you against the nimrods who occasionally find their ways into a position of power.

[parabellum]

The problem with seniority lists , like any military hierachy, is that it also allows completely dysfunctional and personality deficient people ( even though they may be technically qualified) to get into positions of enormous power and authority,( enabling them to make everyone else's life unpleasant), simply because they are in the system

Requirements for a command:- Licence, experience, ability, seniority and last, but not least, suitability.

So your scenario shouldn't happen and if such a person does make it to command then it is just as likely to happen in an airline without a seniority list as it is in an airline that has one, since management obviously thought they were suitable for the job, whether you like him/her or not.

I've yet to come across an airline where captains were selected by the co-pilots on a popularity basis;)

[Shrike200]

When a pilot goes into management, he is no longer considered part of the seniority list. Yes, he keeps his number in case he ever goes back to the line. In effect, he is trying to get ahead independently of his seniority on the list. So, in many ways, management pilots are not unlike ambitious military officers.

Wow! This is a little OT, but I was able to read the secret code in this part of your post - you've secretly spelled out the name of an SA company:

C O M A I R

:D

[maxrated]

Parrebellum your quote below refers,

"I've yet to come across an airline where captains were selected by the co-pilots on a popularity basis"

True, but I bet you could name airlines where captains have questioned how certain individuals could have got command despite their low EQ's and high ratings on the "@rseholeometer" scale.

I guess their number came up and they were in the system right ?

A seniority list, almost by definition, takes that 'personality' factor out of the equation. It is based purely on when you were hired and ability to meet and maintain a pre-determined standard of competence.


This is exactly the problem, no one takes personality into the equation, and this allows dysfunctional personality types to get command despite their apparent technical competance.

I agree that command is not the result of winning a personality contest amongs the junior aircrew, but it is bad bussiness to promote people into positions of power and authority if there is a risk that they will abuse it and cause strife and dissention amongst their sub-ordinates.

possibly I'm too new age in my thinking ??:cool:

[Avi8tor]

Obviously there are many Ryanair pilots that are not happy but its human nature to always want better.So you agree there is way better than Ryanair? This discussion is about finding 'best practice', is it not?

This is exactly the problem, no one takes personality into the equation, and this allows dysfunctional personality types to get commandNot sure where you work, but I think the problem is not the seniority list but the selection process and training!!!

Having been in hiring/firing and training, trust me, NO airline promotes strickly on your number. Problem children, when they slip through the slection net, are identified when they are co pilots.

I am sorry, I still stick to what I have always said. The guys at the bottom of the list, that think they are fine captain material, hate the list system and the top guys love it.