First Name Basis or 'Sir'?

[eurocopter beans]

Especially in relation to helis, when the pilot is an officer, is it best for your crew to call you by first name or by 'Sir'? I have heard different organisations use different terms in the air.... pros/cons/comments??

[Chippie Chappie]

Airborne or in the bar?

[eurocopter beans]

Airborne only, bar is more complicated!

[taxydual]

I always used 'skip' or 'skipper'. If the trappers were with us or it was 'business' then 'Pilot' became the norm.

[Door Slider]

8 years on SH and usually first name terms in the cockpit, on the sqn and in the crewroom for Junior Officers. Sir is usually reserved for Sqn Ldr and above.

Worked with the AAC on many occassions they seem to be much more formal on the ground, cant comment on in the air.

[Pontius Navigator]

The difference between skipper, captain and pilot is one of position.

In the air one most often talks to the position in the aircraft, ie pilot.

On the ground, in the bar, but where other non-crew members are present the terms are often skip or boss rather than Tom, Dick or Harry.

[Mister-T]

I find it easier to use neither, after all if its just the two of you up front in a heli why do you need to call each other anything. :ok:

[Union Jack]

First Name Basis or 'Sir'?

Definitely not "Sir" if Michelle Goodman is driving, I'd say!:)

Jack

[TheInquisitor]

The term 'Sir' should never be used in an aircraft - it only serves to promote 'cross-cockpit gradient' which is the antithesis of CRM.

If you know the guys you're flying with, it's usually first name terms. If the situation demands more formality, or the Captain is a senior officer, then referral to each other by crew position is more appropriate.

[Wensleydale]

Always taught on larger multi-crew aircraft that you use crew positions in the aircraft - good advice when 4 of you have the same Christian name on a crew as once happened to me (I was one of them). Also, do not be called Mark - especially on an aircraft with smoke floats!

Bottom line - during quiet periods, or when saying thank-you then Christian names can be OK. However, when the workload goes up then crew position should be the order of the day.

I only use Sir when the Staish is flying....

For thread drift... are there any other names that have/can cause confusion on a crew apart from Mark?

[mally35]

Legend has it that a certain RAF captain on take off in a Britannia looked across
at his miserable looking co-pilot whilst accelerating towards V1 and said
"Cheer up!
The rest is history. :O

[forget]

... are there any other names that have/can cause confusion on a crew apart from Mark? .......................

Roger?

[Floppy Link]

....SAM!

:uhoh:

[Wensleydale]

Similar to the Britannia story - I always thought that Gordon and Gear Down were quite similar.

[philrigger]

;)

This reminds me of an incident on 230 Sqn at Odiham in the late 1970s.

Master Loadie to Sqn Ldr pilot 'Nigel, blah, blah, blah ....'

Sqn Ldr goes mental. 'Do not call me Nigel, address me as Sir!'

Master Loadie 'Don't be a c&*t Nigel'.

[bast0n]

Says it all about the Crabs really!

Overheard at Farnborough -"Are you in the services?" "I don't know, I'm in the Airforce"

[BEagle]

SORF QFI returns to crew room with particularly grumpy senior officer JP student in tow. Normally the student makes the tea, but on this occasion QFI decides to do the honours.

Unfortunately the milk has gone off overnight, so QFI turns to student and asks "Do you mind coffee, mate?".

Senior officer goes red in the face and splutters "Young man, that degree of informality is quite out of place in a military organisation!"

"OK, sorry Sir, the bloody milk has gone off, Sir. So would like Coffeemate instead....SIR!!" came the reply.

:hmm:

[Union Jack]

Whilst acting as Operations Room Officer in a cruiser taking part in a NATO exercise, some time during the middle watch (0001-0400 for the hard of understanding .....), I receive a rather sleepy message from the Admiral's sea cabin "Plot - Flag, request sitrep".

Mindful of training advice to keep transmissions short and to the point, and with no flannel, I hardly have time to say "Flag - Plot, stand by for sitrep" when the Ops Room door opens and the Flag Captain bursts in and succinctly tells me "I call the Admiral "Sir", you call the Admiral "Sir"! OK?"
turns on his heel and retreats to his sea cabin. Feeling somewhat chastened, I brighten up when one of the radar plotters says to me "Well, cheer up, Sir. At least we now know exactly why the Captain's called 'Dick.' "!

Well, he was completely ballocky buff .....

Jack

[goudie]

Who calls whom what, brings to mind the story regarding
RSM Brittian, addressing a new intake of officer cadets at Sandhurst. ''Gentlemen, I will address you as sir and you will address me as sir. The difference is gentlemen, when you address me as sir you will bloody well mean it''!

[FJJP]

In multi crew, always use crew position. It makes it automatic and natural when on check or trapper rides and removes any possible chance of confusion or error. On the ground, on duty, normal rules apply.

Off duty, depends on the unit. Some, all the officers and senior masters were on first name terms, the junior sncos (sgt nco air) always use sir. Boss always called sir or boss.

Senior nco ground crew also on first name terms off duty on det.

Works fine, everyone comfortable with it.

[Tourist]

Guided weapons

I don't know which RN you have been in, but first name terms is completely normal airborne in the RN I am familiar with. The only time a crewie calls me sir is when I have pissed him off about something and he is making a point.

[Wrathmonk]

Tourist

Guess you get called Sir a lot then!;)

Joking aside (honestly), is it true that the individual that is considered the captain on a RN helo is the most senior person (rank wise) on the crew rather than experience and/or seat position? Or is this one of those wonderful RAF BFT urban myths?

[Gnd]

This is strange coming ‘mainly’ from a force that required lowly SO2s to be addressed as Sir on the ground yet call all NCOs by their first name. To say that addressing Officers as sir is ‘anti’ CRM is also bizarre – it is the point of the military. The forces that flew/fly NCOs, who have the capability rather than the rank, seem to manage quite well.
Sounds like an inferiority complex and a lack of self esteem to be even questioning this one. If you are – you are.

[Jucky]

Wrathmonk

Joking aside (honestly), is it true that the individual that is considered the captain on a RN helo is the most senior person (rank wise) on the crew rather than experience and/or seat position? Or is this one of those wonderful RAF BFT urban myths?

It is the senior aircrew officer who is normally the aircraft commander. But it really means the most experienced aircrew officer.

[wg13_dummy]

The term 'Sir' should never be used in an aircraft - it only serves to promote 'cross-cockpit gradient' which is the antithesis of CRM.



Never ever had a CRM problem when using the term 'sir'. Even when I'm the trapper and aircraft captain. The gradient always goes in the right direction.....

It's maybe an 'Army thing' but it certainly doesn't break down the team side of life if 'sir' is used. It's not as if we sit to attention or doff our helmet when applying it. :rolleyes:

[bast0n]

Tourist - I have withdrawn my rude remarks about you. I apologise.

[TheWizard]

Unbelievable...........:rolleyes:

"Sir, they are calling you on box 1"
"Roger"*
"No Sir, not you Sir, you are on box 2"
"Oh I thought you meant me"
"No Sir, it was for the other Sir in the left Sir"
"Roger"
"Sir, you missed a call when you changed boxes"
"Oh, did anyone else catch it?"

"Yes Sir, don't worry I'm monitoring all three boxes"
"Roger"

(*there is nobody called Roger in this clip from the CVR)

or
"Jim, they are calling you on box 1"
"Thanks"
Continue sortie.....

[minigundiplomat]

Baston,

whilst I don't always agree with Tourist, I think you need to 'get over yourself', as you strike me as a bit of a pr1ck.

[India69]

Squadron Leader and above( and Trappers )SIR everyone else first or nick names ; I recall this included the best ever QFI Phil Cox.I hope he is still kicking and not got a harp.

[Dengue_Dude]

Oh the joys of civil aviation (after the military), this sh*t doesn't feature.

[pigsinspace]

Baston equals Cock....get a life, you are the sort who will die within 5 mins of leaving the service.

I was never commissioned but a Chief Tech for many years, I started work in Manila after leaving and here everyone is insistent on calling bosses Sir, it has taken me 10 months to get my managers to call me by my first name..

Undermine the command structure? in my 29years 118 days we always knew who was in charge.

[bast0n]

I do agree with you pigsinspace - It was a bit late at night for me! I apologise to Tourist for being unecessarily rude. Not a clever thing to do on a forum like this. However I stand by my assertion. Its a personal view that served me and most of my friends very well over the years in a variety of roles.

[spheroid]

It is the senior aircrew officer who is normally the aircraft commander. But it really means the most experienced aircrew officer

Very true but also if the sortie is an instructional sortie then the instructor will be the AC. For instance, if the Pilot is a Commander and the instructor is a Lt then the Lt will be the Aircraft Commander.




I wouldn't expect any aircrew of any rank to call me Sir. I wasn't christened "Sir"....thats not my name.

[Wader2]

Squadron Leader and above( and Trappers )SIR everyone else first or nick names.

On the Vs it was invariably crew position - captain, co, radar, plotter, AEO and an intercom check always in that order. If there were trappers on board, or a QFI, they were invariable Captain (for a copilot check) or Co for a crew check with Screen or 6th for the rear crewman.

On a Nimrod I do not recall needing to talk to a trapper on intercom. They were usually just flies on the wall. As for the QFI trapper, you would often find John Elias lounging by the starboard entrance door.

Came close to decking an AEO checker on one sortie. He was the AE Ldr and had nicked my Red Book without telling me. Gave it back at the end of the sortie. If you're reading this I still think yr a cnut Cuddles.

[Tourist]

I am intrigued now and gutted I missed the insult.
How bad must it have been if minigun defends me?:confused:

[taxydual]

But surely, it's a Badge of Honour to be attacked by Minigun. And a bar to the badge if AIDU contributes.





Sorry, way off thread and facetious. But.....................

[mlc]

Slightly off topic but the great Petty Officer Tidbull at Dartmouth after Wren IO complains about the noise on parade ground, "It's alright for you Ma'am. You've only got one c*nt to look after, I've got 14"

At least he said Ma'am :)

[bayete]

I always thought that the best way on larger crew aircraft was first names when involving conversational non operational/aircraft specific chatter and crew position for the rest ie.
"I'm going on holiday next week"
"Bill did you watch the match yesterday?"
"Ha Ha Jim's just spilt his coffee all over his lap"
all immediately interupted by hearing..
"Captain-Loadie"
"Loadie go ahead"
"Eng I have just noticed..xxx.on the the left engine"

For senior officers would probably end up with "Boss" for chatter but back to crew position for anything important like..
"Nav your round of brews"

[BEagle]

Then there was the apocryphal story of some crusty old Albert captian who wouldn't even talk to his female navigator.....

Until, that is, they were inbound to some beacon or other. Whereupon it is alleged he just said "Drift.............bitch?"

It was all a wind up though, it seems.

[Pontius Navigator]

I always thought that the best way on larger crew aircraft was first names when involving conversational non operational/aircraft specific chatter

and in a Buff, one nav to the other at a quiet moment on an Oil Burner, 'what do you think they will do Bill?' (refer to the stock market as it happens) 'oh, I think they'll go down' followed immediately by a BANG at the tail gunner exited the aircraft.

He had been off intercom and only plugged back in to hear 'go down'.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Not apocryphal at all Beags....and for ever more she was known, and probably still is, as the 'Drift Bitch', a name which, as far as I know she didn't take offence to.

[bayete]

Pontious,
Not really sure that the story about the Buff would have changed if they were using rank, crew positions or first names.
Are you saying there should never be any non operational/aircraft specific chatter?
Does anyone operate a 'sterile' cockpit? Some civvies do below 10000'.
It reminds me of the aprocryphyl story along the lines of...
On the run in to a drop zone:
Copilot-"Can you see the truck over there?"
Captain-"The red one?"
Copilot-"No green one"
Loadie-"Load gone!"

[Mmmmnice]

Personally - when I was trying to get the job done my crew usually used my nickname as has been the fashion in SH for many years. In front of non- aircrew, other services, and anyone else who was particularly rank-sensitive I would expect subordinates to use sir, and others to use my real name as nicknames inevitably confused sailors, soldiers and foreigners! Just because light blue aviators sometimes have a slightly different take on the whole rank thing I don't feel it is necessarily better, or worse (although I know many out there disagree) Being polite, and doing my job as professionally as possible, seemed more important than getting a h*rd-on about what people called me?

Bast0n - did you once try to shoot a police station - only narrowly missing from extreme range?

[Wensleydale]

Lots of different opinions... What is clear is that those aircraft with a crew of two or three seem to have much more leeway than those with a crew of 18! In the latter case, comms discipline is vital to ensure that the message gets through to the correct person.

[Wader2]

Are you saying there should never be any non operational/aircraft specific chatter?

And this one isn't aprocraphyl.

"Mic"

"Yes?"

"MICROPHONE"

And yes, no on-intercom chatter. As Wensleydale says, on a large multi-crew aircraft if 2-3 are having a natter then you are probably p1ssing off 10 others trying to do a job.

OTOH

"Nav-Captain - TAC"

will see EVERY crew member selecting TAC intercom. :}

[Chicken Leg]

In my experience, it was normally first name terms in the RAF, but generally 'Sir' in military units!!

[Blacksheep]

Call him Sir by all means, but one should omit tugging the forelock... ;)

[thunderbird7]

.. or the chappie calling home via Portishead, on the way back from a certain 3 week det in Florida involving rum, before being able to warn his missus that every man and his dog was listening in, being regaled with;

"Why the ******* hell haven't you called me for the past 3 weeks you selfish bastard!?" :ok:

[minigundiplomat]

'Sir' is merely a form of address. It does not (trust me on this) convey any respect.

Some people seem confused over this, but it's quite simple really.

I'm sorry Sir! (Bugger, Ive been caught)

Can you pass the (Whatever) please Sir? (Your in the bloody way again!)

Yes Sir. (I'll make all the right noises before doing exactly as I planned
before we started this chat)

As opposed to:

Sorry John! (Bugger, Ive let the poor sod down)

Can you pass the (Whatever) please John? (I can't reach it)

Yep, ok John. (Fair Point)

[KENNYR]

It has been my experience during my flying time with the Army that "Sir" has nearly always been used when addressing officers in the aircraft and on the ground. However when one of my officer studes was having a bad sortie I would resort to using first names (with his permission) just to make things a little more informal and low key, help him to relax.

[Shack37]

Yonks ago on one aircraft plus groundcrew detachments we often played Bridge as a way of passing the time. This always involved officer/nco/erk mix and match. On these occasions it was always first name basis, mostly because "where did you get five no trumps from you stupid c**t.... sir" didn't always go down well with the det CO after a few wets.

s37

[exscribbler]

#2 son told me that PO Tidbull was still being quoted around BRNC in 1999! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Yonks ago on one aircraft plus groundcrew detachments we often played Bridge as a way of passing the time. This always involved officer/nco/erk mix and match. On these occasions it was always first name basis, mostly because "where did you get five no trumps from you stupid c**t.... sir" didn't always go down well with the det CO after a few wets.

s37

However what do you call a flt cdr, who was on call, in No 2, no tie, carpet slippers, jacket open, playing 10-pin bowls when you are a JO, in proper uniform


and



one of the airmen with whom he was playing called him Dave and seemed a bit annoyed that I was interrupting their game.

cnob and haycnut spring to mind and the bugga made wg cdr

[exscribbler]

The flt cdr or the airman? :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

flt cdr, could have been Mr McGoo even.

[taxydual]

Long time ago, one very famous/infamous (delete as necessary) Sqn Ldr doc was doing a medical on a very prissy Air Marshal who was attending RFS at Leeming.

A part of the examination involved latex gloves and the AM's 'private parts'.

AM objected to the doc calling him by his Christian name.

The doc replied "Whilst I've got you by the balls, I'll call you what I like".

The doc's final dining-out was attended by the ex-AM, who had passed his 11 plus, and progressed onto being an ACM.

It was the ACM who told the story.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

For a Baldric calling someone Sir is the easiest thing in the world........meaning it is something completely different :ok:

But heres the thing, there are plenty of Officers out there able to spot difference and very few who can't :p

[bast0n]

Mmmmnice

T'was not I that clobbered the police station!! There is a very good report of the attack in "Falklands crash" sites in the Military Forum. See you over there!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

A quote from "the crewman who shall not be named":

- "you don't mind me calling you "Sir", do you sir? You know I don't mean anything by it..."

[exscribbler]

Surely that depended on how he was spelling it. :E

[Like-minded]

due to my position in society, and my achievements in aerospace, I insist on being addressed as "My Lord".

[Spurlash2]

Dartmoor, Sarops on, at night, very dark, lots of mist and stuff, pre nvg, pre GPS, 20-30 feet agl, 'kin dangerous.
Trying to nav out the cargo door with a right angle torch and a 50 thou, to a casualty.
My SAR diver was front left, hatch open, responding to my geographical inputs.
What I did not know; the a/c Captain’s first name was the same as my big, bezzy oppo, diver, mate.
Unaware of first name thing. I was telling/asking/giving directions up gulleys/ valleys and stuff, on a big best mate format.
On RTB, pulled to one side by RHS and told to “always call me Sir, in future”.

[Old Fella]

Going back to an early post on this thread, during the 1960's when I was at RAAF Base Edinburgh SA and it was a joint RAAF-RAF base, a similar story about an over-run of the runway was told. Allegedly, when "take-off power" was called for as the aircraft accelerated down the runway, either the F/E or the Non handling pilot retarded all throttles to idle. Can't verify the story, but it sounded OK at the time.

As for the safest way to address another in the military used to be as "Sir/Maam" for commissioned ranks, by rank for SNCO's and other ranks, except in multi-crew ops where "Capt" - "Co-Pilot" - "Nav" - "Eng" or "Loadie" was the go.

Worst example of "Class distinction" I ever heard was a very senior officer addressing a parade and onlookers. Quote, "Officer's and your Ladies, SNCO's and your wives, Airmen and your women" Good stuff eh!

[Kengineer-130]

From a groundie point of view, *most* aircrew are fine with being called by thier first/badge/nick names once introduced and known to each other, it is generally the c**ts (who most of the other aircrew dont like either :}) who insist on being called sir/sarg etc :suspect:, obviously all called by rank unless previously cleared, or infront of higher powers, but why be so formal in circumstances that don't demand it? :\

[Old Fella]

About 35 years ago the C130 Squadron I was part of got a new CO. a good bloke and one who thought that it was a good idea for all members of the squadron to be on a first name basis. It was a great idea, except that it came back to bite him. Problem is not everyone will be able to differentiate when the "circumstances don't demand addressing others by rank or position". and when they do.

Because the CO was embarassed more than a few times, especially at social events, the whole squadron had to revert back to the traditional ways. Different situation when operating as a crew as long as it is kept to that environment and there can be no confusion as with multiple same christian names.

[14greens]

Working on multi crew (rank) aircraft have to say from a CRM point of view and safety use of rank should be banned!!!! What the point of SAC steward coming on the flight deck and using "sir!"? who are they talking to? Flight position is safest and clearest!!!

as for the 3 or 4 up front, again safest and clearest is flight position! id i/c is not used then flight position still good, but first names worked well for last 30 odd years and the civvies seem to cope with it
in other words Horses for Courses

[BEagle]

I think that this is one of the few things the V-force had right!

First, Co, Radar, Plotter, AEO

If there was a QFI on board, he would be the Captain, irrespective of which seat he was in, but would routinely be addressed by crew position. Similarly, a Phase 5 co-piglet flying in the first pilot's position with the constituted crew would be 'First' and the other pilot 'Co'. But if the 'real' Captain needed to make a command decision, he would call 'Captain to crew' - which would wake everyone up in an unambiguous manner!

Whereas the trucky force was far more cumbersome - whoever sat in the Left Seat was 'Captain' even if he/she wasn't the Aircraft Commander and the 'real' Captain was a QFI sitting in the Right Seat as co-pilot or was in the jump seat. Nothing worse than if a question was posed as "Captain?" "Yes?" "No, sorry, not you, but the other Captain" or similar.

I don't know what the Kipper Fleet did in the air on their multiplicity of intercomms with their back end captains - a situation which the 'no stick = no vote' pilots in the rest of the RAF used to find distinctly odd. Although a mate of mine told of the night when the first pilot had to go around due to low cloud, only to be asked by the back end Captain "Can't you go a little lower next time?". To which he handed over control to the co-pilot, unstrapped went down to the back end amongst the pie munchers and said "All yours then, Captain!". Needless to say, they diverted!

Huggy-fluffy civvy world with 2 pilots and a number of flight attendants - not the same thing at all. As would doubtless be confirmed by a certain ex-FJ pilot on TriShaws who found it distinctly unmilitary and overly familiar to be addressed on first name terms by corporal stewards. Not many did it twice, I gather! Although there were occasions, one understands (usually on the 'Long Dulles'), when stewardesses adressed their captains as God - as in "Oh God, oh God, OH GOD......!!!:E"

[Two's in]

The Army has NCO, SNCO, WO and Officer Pilots of varying status and has generally coped admirably with the whole recognition of rank versus aircraft captaincy issues (the Kegworth twins being one glaring and expensive exception). Army Officers are seldom addressed as anything but "Sir" but as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, you can communicate effectively in a 2 man cockpit without the need for any formal address. When you know somebody personally, there is an obvious case for some relaxation as long as the boundaries of that are clearly understood. Some people can cope with this, others can't.

Corporal pilots are probably not calling any Majors "Tarquin" or "Fabian" on a regular basis, but Warrant Officers are probably using the term "Boss" quite comfortably, regardless of who is PIC. Sitting 12 inches from somebody for 2 hours and interacting on the most intimate of levels is a great environment for learning who gets called "Sir" through mutual respect and who just gets called "Sir".

One key difference in the Army is that out of the cockpit an Officer will usually have a key role in the Unit Command structure. Calling "Julian" by his first name 30 minutes before you have to march in to have a week's pay taken from you for bouncing cheques may stretch the bounds of familiarity a bit too far.

It's that age old problem for the Army, where the structure, rules and regulations are generally established by the 147,365 soldiers who don't fly aircraft, rather than the 647 who do. The Air Force is at least established solely for the purpose of operating aircraft, so it's easier to embed customs that support that aim.

[Union Jack]

I always thought that the following exchange (# 108 in that terrific thread "I wish I hadn't said that ....") was a very interesting indication of CRM in the Royal Air Force:

Great Fun!!!

An old and infamous herc loadie once had the AOC on board and with the AOC on headset decides to wind his captain up.
Unplugging the AOCs Intercom he announces "The AOC's a C@nt!"
Shocked silence flashing of career in front of captains eyes.
again "The AOC's a C@nt!"

Voice of AOC on intercom "Loadies a C@nt he's just unplugged the nav"

With grateful thanks to LunchMonitor.:ok:

Jack

[wg13_dummy]

the Kegworth twins being one glaring and expensive exception


:D :D :D :D

Lol, that made me larf!!

[Dengue_Dude]

Was that Pete Tyas - or just someone with the same career path??

[wg13_dummy]

Not so much a similar career path but a similar smoldering hole in the ground (quite a bit smaller) due to some very similar circumstances and a CRM gradient akin to the white cliffs of Dover.

[ralphmalph]

Good post and pretty much on the money. We are very familiar in the AAC. That does bite when you are an appointment holder!..can lead to some akward situations!

However, I think most people are grown up enough and adult enough to recognise that.

Ralph

[Grabbers]

How is this thread still running?

[MightyGem]

Well, you've just bumped it to the top. :rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

BEags,

I agree the Coastal issue was not quite as clear cut as the Vs but is worked OK.

The majority of captains were pilots so it was only with the odd (:)) AEO or nav captain that one had to remember to address the front end as pilot if you required a velocity change - you didn't know whether 'twas the 1st or Co that was flying.

A nav captain was also either Route or Tac sortie and sortie about.

AEO was easy - it was the wet or dry team we talked to, not the AEO :)

[johnfairr]

My father was a Spitfire pilot on 72 Sqn in 1942 at Biggin Hill. Below is his view on the topic, taken from his, as yet, unpublished memoires:


Jamie Rankin took over as Wing Commander Flying at Biggin Hill and Brian Kingcome took over 72 with Pete Wickham as ‘A’ Flight Commander. Now, you’ve heard me mention Brian Kingcome on a number of occasions, but I’ll just say, he was probably one of the finest leaders and squadron commanders I’ve ever come across. He really was tremendous. To begin with he had no side whatsoever and after being introduced to each of us at the dispersal, he said,

“Well, my name is Brian. I don’t want any of this “Sir” business, but on the other hand, if I’m talking to the Station Commander, I don’t want some Sergeant Pilot walking up and slapping me on the back and saying ”Wotcher Brian, how are you?””

Says it all, really.