What to do if your lost?

[nickyboy007]

What to do if your lost?

I have only recently gained my PPL license and like to have figure out what I would do in different situations. I am trying to put together the best procedure if i were to get lost.

I would really appreciate your suggestions and experiences.

Nick

[Chilli Monster]

There are two options:

1) If you know you're not near any Controlled airspace, take your last known position on the chart, draw a circle around it the radius of which is the distance you know you will have flown since that point (so - if it's 5 minutes at 120Kts then that's a 10nm radius). then work out where you are inside that circle by reference to ground features

2) If you suspect you're near CAS, or (1) above doesn't work, dial up 121.5, squawk 7700 and shout for help (PAN call). There is no shame in doing so, you'll get all the help you'll need, and it'll stop you having a nasty with something bigger and faster.

[Olabade]

Sir,

0. Admit to yourself that you are lost, instead of trying to convince yourself you know where you are.

1. Do not continue any further.

2. Check heading and the time travelled from the last known waypoint.

3. If able, return to a place that you recognise and are able indentify without a doubt. (This should be fairly easy if you have OFP and you know how long you've come with a known heading)

4. If 3 doesn't work, use radio to get assistance from ATC and use nav aids to plot yourself onto the map again.

Happy landings sires,

Olabade

[stuartforrest]

I look at one of my 7 GPS devices in my plane and failing that I would use ye olde nav devices like my adf (have to de-tune radio five live first) or perhaps a VOR.

Personally I dont think you can beat the situational awareness that a GPS gives you. I always like ome of the ones that display you as a flashing blob on a CAA chart (such as memory map) which you can have on your phone, a pocket pc or in my case a small tablet pc with a touch screen.

I am aware that there will be others who will rattle on about not using GPS for navigation etc but frankly that is rubbish IMO. If you use GPS together with your maps and looking out of the window to make sure what you see on your map and gps is the same you wont go far wrong.

[Steve N]

Nickyboy,

Now you have your ppl you may like to think about getting a GPS then you won't ever get lost. Even if it packs up on you will have a good fix at the point it went TU.

Even a walking one will give you enough position awareness to find yourself on the chart and they cost less that one hours aircraft rental.

Steve

[Oops: sorry Stuart, stepped on you]

[Pace]

Apart from what others have said here is not to panic, make large deviations or identify features as being what you want to see rather than what is there.

Double check towns and villages by checking for railway lines, rivers, shapes etc. check for features such as hills, lakes, coastlines.

Chances are you will be talking to someone if not make sure you are. If it is a military radar unit perfect, just tell them of your problem and they will no doubt help.

Even avoid a problem by telling them that you are a new PPL routing from A to B and can they keep an eye on you.

Even as an experienced pilot ATC are there for you to work.

Often under a radar service I will ask to be stepclimbed to a cruise level with airspace letting them sort out the controlled airspace or while flying IMC will ask for stears away from certain areas or aircraft.

So dont be shy of asking for help in the early days. It is reassuring to know someone is keeping half an eye on you until you have the confidence yourself.

Pace

[Chilli Monster]

If it is a military radar unit perfect, just tell them of your problem and they will no doubt help.

If you can find one open at the weekend!

Doesn't matter whether it's military or civil - you'll get the same help.

[BackPacker]

dial up 121.5, squawk 7700 and shout for help (PAN call)

I somehow think that D&D would appreciate an "unsure of position, request fix" more than a full-blown emergency squawk with a PAN call and everything.

You need to realize that as soon as you squawk 7700, all ATC units that have you on radar, including those that you're not talking to, will start watching you and start clearing the airspace around you, particularly below you. Maybe some rescue units near you will get a heads-up call for a possible emergency landing. After all, from your squawk alone they can't figure out that you only need a position fix from D&D, and are talking to D&D to achieve that. So they'll fear the worst and act accordingly.

[Duchess_Driver]

....are you in immediate, life threatening danger? No? Didn't think so.


The one thing that nobody has mentioned here, and it's sooo easy is the traditional VDF call.

If you look at your VFR chart here in the U.K. you will note that certain aerodromes have the initials VDF next to them. Tune in and ask for either bearings or steers (magnetic or true - up to you)

They will usually give you a bearing from the station - which you can then cross cut with a station you think is at 90 degrees. You can find which stations will work for you as you plot your route.

The full description of the process is detailed in CAP413. No gadgets required.

As SoCalApp has said, I am extremely surprised that your instructor has not covered this with you at some length, and you should have been tested on this by your examiner.

[Chilli Monster]

I somehow think that D&D would appreciate an "unsure of position, request fix" more than a full-blown emergency squawk with a PAN call and everything

Wrong, they wouldn't.

If you're near CAS, or you suspect may have infringed, then it's a PAN on 121.5 and a 7700 squawk because:

1) The unit responsible for the CAS can avoid you like the plague if inside, or plan ahead in case you're likely to infringe (we can see which way you're tracking)

2) D&D can speak to you whereever you are in the country, and the flashing emergency squawk will pinpoint you faster on their (and other) screens.

The calls you make to D&D are either real (PAN or MAYDAY) or practice (Practice PAN or "Training Fix"). If you're lost you won't be doing one of the latter - go back and read my original post, those options are still valid if you're not talking to an ATC unit. However - if you are talking to an ATC unit already (and I mean proper ATC) use them first obviously.

If you look at your VFR chart here in the U.K. you will note that certain aerodromes have the initials VDF next to them. Tune in and ask for either bearings or steers (magnetic or true - up to you)

Point of semantics - if you have the nouse to do this, and you know which units to call, would you actually be lost?

[IO540]

Buy yourself the biggest-screen GPS you can afford, learn how to use it, and you won't get lost :)

Otherwise, the answer depends on whether you are trying to impress an instructor, or trying to impress your girlfriend.

In the former case, you call up D&D on 121.5 and tell them you are unsure of position and ask for help. They don't have much to do these days and like the practice.

In the latter case, you will have learnt how to track a VOR and what a DME is, and will have these instruments in your plane, so you do a VOR/DME or DME/DME (or VOR/VOR) fix. In fact, you will have navigated using GPS backed up by VOR/DME so will not have got lost in the first place :)

Off to get my coat before the shells start coming in :)

[FlyingOfficerKite]

It may sound obvious, but look directly below you.

I was once on a cross-country and couldn't see the aerodrome I was using as a fix.

Due to shadows and light I did not see the airfield as I approached it in a low wing SEP.

As soon as I dipped the wing to turn in an effort to fix my position (and therefore go no further) lo and behold I was directly above the fix!

Don't panic and follow the good advice proffered elsewhere in this Thread.

KR

FOK :)

[Stan Woolley]

Remember the 5 C's

CLIMB
CONFESS
COMMUNICATE
COMPLY
CONSERVE

May not be all you need to do but at least it's a sensible start.

[vanHorck]

I d run for the bunker.....

[BackPacker]

1) The unit responsible for the CAS can avoid you like the plague if inside, or plan ahead in case you're likely to infringe (we can see which way you're tracking)

But they don't require 7700 for that, surely? I mean, if a CAS controller sees a 7000 squawk heading directly for his/her airspace, wouldn't he/she start planning for an infringement already?


2) D&D can speak to you whereever you are in the country, and the flashing emergency squawk will pinpoint you faster on their (and other) screens.

Does D&D have nationwide radar coverage? I though they did VDF triangulation?

[Duchess_Driver]

Chilli.....

If you're inadvertantly inside CAS then, rest assured, the controller is already ontop of you and, where necessary vectoring away his IFR traffic to maintain the separation it should be affored. You don't need 7700 for this.....

If you suspect you're inside CAS then your call should be to that unit first - if they can't help you (you're probably not inside their space) and will recommend a call to D&D.

If you don't have the nouse to be able to talk to someone on the radio - you shouldn't be up there in the first place - and certainly nowhere near CAS!

DD

[Pace]

In the former case, you call up D&D on 121.5 and tell them you are unsure of position and ask for help. They don't have much to do these days and like the practice.

Sorry but I got the impression as a new PPL he was more nervous of getting lost. I am sure D&D although they dont have a lot to do dont want reassurance calls every five minutes to confirm that he isnt three miles off track :)

Yes a GPS would be a reassuring extra to have but if not make sure you are using a service explain that you are new and just ask for them to keep half an eye on your progress. Save the girlfriend telling her mates that half the country was on alert to save you both :)

Pace

[Chilli Monster]

But they don't require 7700 for that, surely? I mean, if a CAS controller sees a 7000 squawk heading directly for his/her airspace, wouldn't he/she start planning for an infringement already?

7700 flashes, 7000 doesn't. With the advent of moving map GPS you see a lot of 7000's coming up to the edge of CAS then sliding down the side. 7700 accentuates the "rogue" element of the track.

Does D&D have nationwide radar coverage? I though they did VDF triangulation?

Once upon a time yes, but they also have access to all of the NATS en-route radar network.

DuchessDriver - feel free to look at my profile first before teaching me to suck eggs ;)

The whole point about being lost is you DON'T KNOW where you are, you dont know who's CAS you may have infringed (I've been involved in an aircraft lost scenario where the aircraft was 50 miles away from where they thought they were). 121.5 is a single point of contact who will liaise and co-ordinate, effecting transfer of control if necessary, to the relevant ATC unit.

Yes, I will be avoiding any infringer . However, by squawking 7700, and calling 121.5 you can be pinpointed accurately AND SPOKEN TO whilst D&D carry out the above actions. The squawk isn't for my benefit as an ATCO, it's for the lost aircrafts benefit in being quickly located.

[Lister Noble]

My CFI ,over 50 yrs professional flying,told me to look for the big picture,in my case the North Sea coastline.
He reckoned,go to the coast,fly along it until you know where you are then you should be OK.
Wherever you are,somewhere to the N,S,E,W will be a large feature,ie,mountain,lake,reservoir,forest,city,motorway etc.
Don't be put off by the cocky replies you get from some,most are well meaning.:}
Enjoy your flying.
Lister

[Nipper2]

Buy the best moving map GPS you can afford. Learn how to establish the altitude of controlled airspace from it without having to pause for thought. Preferably wire it in to the aircraft power supply and in any event keep a spare set of batteries handy. Update the database as often as you need to (generally after any major airspace changes in the part of the world you fly in).

Fly around for the next 20 years and never be lost.

If the above plan should fail you, call D&D on 121.5 Don't try and rely on any other options at that stage. If you are lost, you are lost.

P.S. I'm in the bunker with IO540.

[Hyperborean]

Re Lister Noble's "Big Picture," with my instructor it was "The Concrete Radial," ie the motorway. Sensible advice. Unless you have been lost for a very long time without noticing anything, you will not be far from where you ought to be so any prominent geographical feature will give you a clue. Otherwise I'm in the tell somebody camp. It's better to call up, either the unit you have been working or D&D, and put them in the picture. Thereafter any one who criticises you is an a*^%$@le.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Yes, always a good idea to read peoples profiles!

LOL

KR

FOK :}

PS: The only times I have been 'uncertain of position' have occurred in good vis. Must be a moral there - maybe you become more complacent when it all looks well and take your eye off the ball?!

[Duchess_Driver]

Chilli...

Sorry mate, not trying to teach you to suck eggs.......

I have never been told during my training, nor do any of my fellow instructors advocate setting 7700 as a first or early action...... Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach.....

If you're 50 miles away from where you should be then, I'm afraid, it's refresher training for you when you land!


DD

[Chilli Monster]

Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach.....

I think we need to clear up something here.

What you're teaching, and explaining here, is "things to do when unsure of position"

What I'm advocating is "things to do when you're lost" (the title of he thread).

There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet. I sincerely hope you and your fellow instructors ARE teaching this because having someone going round in circles, 6 miles out and blocking the ILS, trying to work out where they are and not accepting they are lost is REALLY annoying ;)

[Duchess_Driver]

Training fixes are demonstrated and the students are given the opportunity to practice, provided D&D have the time - and, like I said, great service they give.

Sorry, but to me, lost or uncertain of position - I'm sure the differences are minor if you are 6 miles out on the ILS - that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later.

[Chilli Monster]

that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later.

Ok - scenario time.

You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly (if you still want to say unsure of position then fine, but the solution is still going to be the same) - who you going to call? Are you going to ask someone for a VDF bearing? Are you going to stare at the chart and then start panicking as to who you're going to call? Are you going to start dialling up VOR's and trying to work out where you are?

NO - YOU'RE IN THE $HIT AND YOU NEED TO SORT IT SHARPISH.

121.5 / 7700

[Duchess_Driver]

Me thinks that you're stretching the discussion......

I accept that there are circumstances where you need to adapt your philosphy a little.

Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time.

[jonkil]

but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

Yes folks, you are really lost, you have reached the good old U S of A.... everything is big there.

Coat/Door/Run :E

[Chilli Monster]

Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time.

But I'm not advocating that - go back and read my earlier post re: difference between "unsure of position" and "lost".

[IO540]

Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace.

Lost is the actual outcome.

[Duchess_Driver]

Cake and eat it.......

For clarity, you said.....

There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet.

Then your scenario....

"You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

Still only 'unsure of my position' here....stilll options to explore....

You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly ........

By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS.....

Again, I accept your point of view and do advocate a fair degree of common sense and flexibility - but sorry to say I am not in favour of a blanket 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach to fixing position.

...

[FlyingOfficerKite]

nickyboy007

I think you should refer to published documents.

This is becoming something of a tennis match and will only serve to confuse you further.

KR

FOK :)

[Chilli Monster]

By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS.....

Ok, now you're scaring me, and I dread the thought of coming across one of your students. Who's to say it isn't Stansted, Heathrow, Bristol, East Midlands, Birmingham etc.

By your reasoning you're still going to sit there trying to work out where you are, when the possibility is you COULD be an infringer. Is it going to hurt to make sure using the method I've said - NO. Is it going to get you out of trouble quickly - YES!

I'm not saying "shoot first, ask questions later" as you describe it - But I'll say it simply so that, hopefully, you start to understand what's been said because you seem to be having problems with that.

UNSURE OF POSITION - do what you've been taught by the likes of yourself.

HOWEVER

If you can't work out where you are by using those techniques, or you think, by the odd clue, that you are somewhere you shouldn't be, then you are no longer unsure of position, you are LOST

LOST = 121.5 / 7700

[Pace]

Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace.

Lost is the actual outcome.

Oh dear ! uncertain of position can mean both. Uncertain of position and lost.

There was a tragic accident many moons ago where a VFR pilot on top of a solid overcast was uncertain of position.

The poor soul thought he was over the UK but when they traced him his uncertain of position was 200 nm over the north atlantic with no fuel to get back (sadly true)

Uncertain of position means quickly being certain of position by hook or by crook as both are the same.

Pace

[fireflybob]

I have only recently gained my PPL license and like to have figure out what I would do in different situations. I am trying to put together the best procedure if i were to get lost.

nickboy007, full marks for asking but Lost Procedure is part of the PPL Syllabus so should have been taught as part of your PPL Course! If this wasn't covered I suggest you go back to your FTO and ask a) to take you through Lost Procedure and b) why, as this is in the syllabus, it was not covered!

Chilli Monster knows what he is talking about - read, learn, mark and inwardly digest!

[Crash one]

Shirley it cannot be reasuring to a new PPL to have an instructor argue the toss with the very person who would be there to help, & probably has far more experience of actual "lost" situations than the most highly qualified instructor of simulated "lost" situations. Fr instance what about the panic factor? you can't simulate that.
Scary stuff.

[NudgingSteel]

With regard to the 7700 squawk - some radars are set to filter out 7000 squawks, especially round TMA areas where there is lots of Class G airspace underneath controlled airspace. Without Mode C altitude reporting, we in ATC can assume you're outside controlled airspace (with certain caveats). 7700 breaks through all filters and calls attention to a problem, which is absolutely fine by me. (Not entirely necessary if you're great VMC with no other problems, though, as any ATC unit you call is likely to put you on a squawk for identification).

If I got a PAN call from somebody who was lost in my neck of the woods I'd be only too happy to identify your position and: a) help you find your way to a safe landing, and b) not have to stop departures, break several airliners off the approach and put them back to the hold to avoid an unknown contact in the zone. Take a look at the 'Fly on Track' website for some actual radar recordings of this happening.

And remember, everybody makes mistakes because we're just human after all! Seeking assistance at the earliest opportunity is a sign of wisdom, not weakness, and you certainly won't get criticised for that...

[bigfoot01]

...also be uncertain of their postion, or is lost a position?

Banter aside, I would recommend learning to use the GPS well before relying on it. In my relatively early days (still really early days to be honest!) I flew up with a little GPS and didn't really understand the difference between course deviation and bearing pointer. I knew where my waypoing was, by a function of the M1, but it was disconcerting apparently to have the GPS pointing in an entirely random, but fixed direction with some bar breaking in the middle. Hey ho, you navigate, you fly, you land, and you are glad to get the door open to allow the smell to go away...

These days, I have an excellent little HP Travel Companion (cheap as chips these days with Tomtom cornering the Road GPS Market). Built in gps; red spot on where you are and I don't think it makes me a bad person. I do enjoy my fling more, knowing it's there.

[P.Pilcher]

In days of yore when I was learning to fly, I was quite pleased with my mapreading ability one day when an experienced PPL had taken me for a fairly long jolly to the extent that he was uncertain of his position and I was able to point this out to him on the map that I was readng. The following weekend the weather was nice so I decided to have a go on my own. With instructor's authority to do a simple no land away triangle, I confidently took off, turned on to calculated heading and looked for ground features. The aircraft I was in kept turning left didn't it and before long I was similarly uncertain of my position. Oops! I knew I would have to admit it as I could have been close to the controlled airspace of my local "big" airfield. With much sinking feeling in my stomach, I pressed the button and, on a crystal clear day requested a QDM. This was immediately given, I turned onto the given heading and saw my home airfield in the distance! Within a few minutes I had accurately identified my position as well clear of the control zone concerned and went on to complete my flight.
When I got back to the club, I was anticipating a load of ribbing about having to request a QDM on a gin clear day, but nothing happened. I didn't bother to mention it to my authorising instructor either, but by jove I learned from it!
In future years when I heard similar happening on the radio as an instructor, I always made a point of complimenting the student pilot concerned for good airmanship. Those who requested a "QDM - I know where I am but just want to test the system" received an almost as enthusiastic compliment for good airmanship. The radio is your friend, and ATC are there to help.
Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed!

P.P.

[Pace]

Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed!

PP The fact is nowadays we are spoilt for choice and there is no sensible reason why we should be lost. Radar services, GPS, nav aids.

Years ago they had none of that not even radios and had to work harder. On the flip side we are more likely to fly into controlled airspace and the airspace is more controlled.

But yes there is no sensible reason to get lost today and even if you do there are plenty of ways to un loose yourself.

Pace

[OneIn60rule]

Where did this person get a PPL.

Was this not covered in the navigation section of your PPL course?


1/60

[Duchess_Driver]

Chilli....

Apologies. I have re-read 413 emergency procedures and accept that I was mistaken about the 7700 sqwauk being accepted practice when doubt exists over the safe outcome of the flight.

I had never considered being lost as an emergency, more as urgency. I do emphasise to my students that prevention is better than cure and the importance of communication / confession if things do go 'off-plan.'

The blur here lies in the definitions and to me, lost / uncertain is one and the same.

[RatherBeFlying]

The instructor had me doing a whole bunch of airwork under the hood -- then told me it was time to head back home. Did not recognise anything; so, held heading for a minute, spotted a crescent shaped lake and there it was on the map.

In a glider, most of our navigation is from good lift to the next promising cloud in the general direction of where we'd like to go.

Once decent lift is found and circling in it, there's lots of time to find oneself on the map;)

If you have the gas, you can just circle while looking about.

Drawing a line on the map and staying on it reduces the problem to recognising the often cunningly concealed airport:\

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Two sets all.

Chili Monster to serve.

FOK :)

PS: Only joking - some interesting comments gents :ok:

[Mark1234]

Not as a comment on phraseology, however:

On one of my pre-ppl qualifying solo navs the C172 I was flying decided to start indicating empty in one wing - that rather distracted me for a few minutes. Without concerning that, I decided it was the gauge and plodded on. Some while later I started getting concerned that a few landmarks weren't popping up as expected. Hmm. Then it dawned. In the faff over the fuel I'd only gone and forgotten about the DI, and FREDA checks. We were about 20degrees off the compass.

When, for how long? Line on map from last known position (turnpoint) - worst case a couple of miles from a parallel airspace step, heading roughly SE. Dropped below that, just to be on the safe side. In my case, given the airspace, my (very approximate) location, and prospects, I decided to head due south towards the coast which was at max 30nm away, towards an area I knew well, and away from the airspace. Worst case, get to the coast and turn left.

Maybe 10 minutes later I could pick up enough landmarks to be really positive about my location, drew a line and got back with the program.

So, was I lost? Not really.. I had a fair idea, though pretty rough. Unsure of position? Damn straight!

And, for the record, not a by the book solution either.

[silverelise]

I became uncertain of position on the final leg of my QXC, flying from Goodwood to Biggin Hill. I'd planned a route up to Guildford (a large town with a tall church and spire) then a right turn and track in to Biggin. I remember passing Dunsfold on my right and noticing that "the large town with the spire" that I wanted to get to was not on the heading that I had on my plog. So I turned to aim for that instead, away from my plogged heading. A few minutes later on reaching the end of the leg I had a couple of attempts at finding my three identifying features and still only had the spire. I realised I was not where I was supposed to be, and that the M25 and thus Heathrow was uncomfortably close.

Fortunately I had Farnborough on frequency as I'd called up for traffic information so I spoke to the nice lady and said I was uncertain of position. She said did I know Ascot I said no. She said did I know Kenly gliding site I said yes, so she gave me a heading to steer to get to Kenly.

Panic over, job done, home in time for tea. :)

No doubt if I had have actually been in danger of straying in to CAS she would probably have spoken to me first!

[IO540]

Maybe 10 minutes later I could pick up enough landmarks to be really positive about my location, drew a line and got back with the program.

The problem with getting lost and then finding the landmarks you were looking for is that you may have found a second similar looking set of landmarks.

THAT is the danger in dead reckoning. If you do make a big clanger (like totally forgetting to start the stopwatch and not realising until 10-20 mins later, or flying 080 instead of 180) then there is a high probability of finding a false positive on the ground.

The key in this is to pick waypoints which look as bizzare/unusual (in their area) as possible, so the risk of the above mistake is minimised, but it is still easily done especially when flying over feature-rich terrain.

The wonderful thing about radio navigation (GPS, VOR/DME etc) is that you get a continuous guidance along your track, so if you get distracted for 5 mins, nothing major is going to happen.

To get anything like an equivalent continuous guidance using dear reckoning, you need to be constantly matching the map to the terrain below but this is not always possible, due to occassional lack of clear features.

[Mark1234]

Ah, yes, and that's another one I've learned.. it's nothing short of amazing how accurate time and distance is if you stick to it... I've not been right once when I've obeyed the inclination to head off over there a bit, and I've not yet missed when I've followed (or been smacked on the head and told to follow) the plog heading.

Well, appart from the time I got the deviation the wrong way round, but that was early on.... and the instructor sat next to me was having a good giggle :ugh:

Edit: Just to pick up IO540's comments too:

100% agree about the difficulty of finding one's self from absolutely lost. That's where the various map techniques attempt to cut down the area you're considering, and you'd be absolutely bonkers not to use any technology available.
It's also very worth pointing out that it's important to figure out what you did wrong, rather than immediately start to correct. - e.g. note you've been flying 45deg off heading for 10 minutes - to give you a probable position, not turn 45deg the other side and hope.

I always use 'wallclock' time, avoids any stopwatch snafu scenarios, write up the time at the waypoint, add numbers to get the time at the next.

I also tend to draw up a mud map, or script with things to check along the way - expect to cross a road here, lake there, change to a different frequency here sort of thing, rather than make it a 'fly 30 minutes and hope' exercise. That provides early indications and reduces the risk of false positives.

At the risk of drifting the thread into a fairly common holy war, I'm not intrinsically against GPS, but a large proportion of the a/c I rent flat don't have one. Then you can also get the scenario of last week when I thought "ah, that one's TV guided, I'm in a rush, I'll use the GPS to help me round the airspace steps" Got airborne then realised the data card had walked = no airspace, no airfield waypoings, no significant data on the moving map. So back to track crawling and being very conservative. Lesson learned. For the return I plotted an inbound track to an NDB and used the VOR to mark off each of the airspace steps.... then got a direct to @6500 clearance anyway. Much smoother above the convection layer :)

[Pace]

Easiest way just land in a farmers field walk to the Farmhouse and ask where you are.
Once he has put you right jump back in, takeoff and away you go....simple :)

Pace

[fireflybob]

Easiest way just land in a farmers field walk to the Farmhouse and ask where you are.
Once he has put you right jump back in, takeoff and away you go....simple

But make sure you are insured for take off from an unlicensed airfield! Also if you are a student operating under the supervision of a flight instructor the authorisation ceases once you have landed. You would need to contact your FTO/instructor for recovery and would not be authorised to take off.

The other point worth mentioning is why pilots get lost. Ok it can happen to anyone but thorough pre flight planning and good training will go a long way to avoid this happening. Before you use GPS (or any other radio aid come to that) you need to understand the basics of pilot navigation.

That said if you really are lost then in the congested airspace of Europe you need to talk on the radio asap!

[LH2]

What to do if your [sic] lost?

Can't speak for everyone, but as for me, I use the radio. I tune it in and see what language the local pilots are speaking, then I take it from there with my knowledge of European geography :ok:

Seriously, apart from what has been said about GPS/navaids in general, get used to having someone on the radio all the time (RIS/FIS/etc). Then if you're lost, they'll tell you :)

[Il Duce]

121.5 and squawk 0030 (FIR lost) - this will set off the same alarm in D&D that a 7700 will. D&D controllers will treat your "lost" or "unsure of position" as a Pan.

[BackPacker]

squawk 0030 (FIR lost)

Never heard of that. Is this UK or ICAO or military standard? Do you have a reference?

[b.a. Baracus]

it's nothing short of amazing how accurate time and distance is if you stick to it


Spot on there, its never failed me! There is no fun in using a GPS. I find that prep on the ground pays divedends. When I was training for PPL, I used Google Earth to fly the route beforehand - I found it to be very useful. When I shut down the instructor said well done, good flight. Happy days :ok:

Likewise I have never heard of squawking 0030?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Squawk 0030 is not a Special Purpose Code, nor a Conspicuity Code, and should NOT be selected unless instructed to do so by ATC.

[jamestkirk]

get used to having someone on the radio all the time (RIS/FIS/etc). Then if you're lost, they'll tell you

A FIS will not tell you if you are lost. Many a pilot has infringed with that philosophy. you should be careful writing stuff like that on a public forum if you do not have a good understanding of what you are saying.

[Il Duce]

If you squawk 0030 (which means FIR Lost) D&D will know immediately what your problem is (unlike 7700) and where you are before you even speak to them on 121.5. Once they've "got hold of you" you'll be instructed to select 0031 (FIR Found) or a discrete D&D squawk.
0030 is in the SSR Code Allocation Plan.

[LH2]

A FIS will not tell you if you are lost

Oh yes, they will.

UK version: As you're passing through your busy airport's of choice controlled airspace, your squawk will tell the local controller who you're on the radio with, as a result of which your friendly FIS controller will make you aware of the fact that you might not be exactly where you thought you were. Of course first you will have gone through a bit of airspace where you were perhaps not entirely welcome, but that's not the point of this discussion :p

Elsewhere, a FIS is for all purposes what the UK for some reason calls an RAS, and they'll bark instructions at you as needed to keep everyone happy.

you should be careful writing stuff like that on a public forum if you do not have a good understanding of what you are saying.

I do agree with that, but more than what's being written, in my opinion the onus is on the reader to critically analyse any information he might get from here. You get what you pay for and all that.

[BackPacker]

UK version: As you're passing through your busy airport's of choice controlled airspace, your squawk will tell the local controller who you're on the radio with, as a result of which your friendly FIS controller will make you aware of the fact that you might not be exactly where you thought you were.

A FIS implies a non-radar service. I know London INFO assigns a generic squawk (1177 wasn't it?) to all aircraft under their control, but that's not implicit in a FIS and also doesn't mean automatically that London has access to radar images. Do all other FIRs in the UK (Scottish for instance) have the same policy BTW?

In any case, the only thing another controller sees is a 1177 squawk entering their airspace. They need to inform London, and London then needs to figure out, from their flight strips, which aircraft it might be. Before the proper aircraft is found (squawk ident and so forth) might take several minutes, particularly if there are multiple likely candidates.

But in any case if you're being given a FIS, the controller has no way of knowing directly that you're about to enter controlled airspace. They need to be informed by someone else. Unless of course if the controller secretly has radar and performs a RIS-like service, while you asked for a FIS.


Elsewhere, a FIS is for all purposes what the UK for some reason calls an RAS, and they'll bark instructions at you as needed to keep everyone happy.

That still requires radar coverage. Have to admit that that's pretty good in Europe, but not a guarantee. If you want such a guarantee, ask for a RIS or equivalent. No radar coverage, no RIS but FIS only. Simple.

[Duchess_Driver]

Careful with the terminology....

In the UK a FIS (FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE) can come from anyone qualified to provide one and that CAN BE a non-radar/procedural service.

I can get a FIS from Wycombe Tower and Cranfield - but they don't have radar. No radar, no sqwauk - therefore primary contact or 7000 on every radar screen around.

A RADAR INFORMATION or a RADAR ADVISORY must be provided by a radar-unit.

[jamestkirk]

As you can see from the posts, you are wrong.

A FIS does not tell you if you are lost.

If you do not believe me or others call Goodwood, Shoreham or any others who offer a FIS and ask them for your position. You will not get what you asked for. Yes I know you may be outside the UK but your statement was generic.

So again, be careful posting inaccurate information.

And before you post back please look up the definition of FIS .

[soay]

While reading this thread, it's dawned on me that I don't actually know how to address D&D when you call them up! (Never came up in my training.) In an emergency, I'm sure anything would do, but what's their formal call sign?

[Duchess_Driver]

In the U.K., South of 55deg North its London Centre, North of 55deg North it's Scottish Centre. Elsewhere, I have no experience therefore shall refrain from commenting.

But you're correct. If you're in the brown sticky smelly stuff just holler!

[LH2]

Backacker,

But in any case if you're being given a FIS, the controller has no way of knowing directly that you're about to enter controlled airspace. They need to be informed by someone else

Yes of course. I never said it was a practical or efficient way of not getting lost, or that it didn't potentially come with repercussions. :}

DD,

In the UK a FIS (FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE) can come from anyone qualified to provide one and that CAN BE a non-radar/procedural service

Yes, that's a good point. I was thinking in terms of London and Scottish Information only.

Ok, so in a half-serious note, the point is you should try to have someone on the radio at all times and speak to them.

Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet: get yourself an IR and always fly IFR (in CAS, etc., etc., the way it's supposed to be done). That way chances are you will only ever be lost during the departure/arrival while trying to follow those stupid SIDs, etc. :uhoh:

Going off on a tangent, any examples of pilots getting lost flying en-route IFR? Actual examples please--I'm aware of many things that can potentially go wrong, but I'd like to hear about actual cases.

[Ivor_Novello]

You can be on a FIS from a FIS unit, (Scottish Information for example) and in that case they'll have no radar picture of where you are.
You can also be on a FIS from a radar unit, and even be radar identified. being identified does not imply receiving a radar service (you could be outside the area of responsibility, or below terrain safe altitude)

If you're talking to a radar ATC unit, there's no need to squawk 7700. Just tell them you are lost, you can be easily identified (especially if transponder equipped) and provided with the most accurate fix.
Failing that, you can get a VDF fix.

Being lost per se is not gonna kill anybody. Entering IMC when not qualified, will.
I'd rather a VFR only pilot entered CAS without clearance, rather than enter IMC. It's easier to deal with an infringement than a CFIT.

[BackPacker]

get yourself an IR and always fly IFR

How do I file an IFR flightplan for aerobatics? In a VFR plan I just put in RMK/aerobatics but will that be accepted by IFPS on an IFR plan? And do I have to remain in the airways or can I file DCT to my usual practice area? How should my altitude be filed?

pilots getting lost flying en-route IFR

American Airlines Flight 965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965)

(Have to admit this was not en-route IFR though, but the same mistake could have happened en-route.)

Oh, and in the last year alone I can remember two F16 scrambles for a commercial aircraft entering the Dutch FIR without radio contact. As this is one of the few scenarios where those guys are allowed to break Mach 1 while over land, it was a big new item - half of the Netherlands heard the sonic booms.

[englishal]

I haven't read the entire post as most of it is probably highly predictable ;)

However, there is only one safe course of action. Find a field, and put the kite down in it then wander to the nearest petrol station to ask for directions. You could also use this time on the ground to stop for a picnic before you head on your way if you liked, I'm sure the local farmer would provide a scrumptious Ploughmans.....

Of course if you live in the 21st centaury rather than the 1930's, you could whip out your GPS and it'd tell you 5 times per second where you are.....

[soay]

In the U.K., South of 55deg North its London Centre, North of 55deg North it's Scottish Centre.
Thanks DD, it wouldn't do to be lost and sound unprofessional. ;)

[LH2]

BP,

How do I file an IFR flightplan for aerobatics?

I was talking about becoming lost en-route. But since you ask, I suppose you could always do barrel rolls while following an airway, snap turns at the turning points, and don't call for descent until overhead your destination, then you practise your spins. Easy. :cool:

American Airlines Flight 965

Thanks, but as you mention, that was during the arrival phase. What I've asked for were examples of actual disorientation en-route. I'm pretty sure I've come across such instances before, but right now I can't think of any except cases of poor INS performance on commercial flights, hence why I'm asking.

in the last year alone I can remember two F16 scrambles for a commercial aircraft entering the Dutch FIR without radio contact

I understand it's quite a common occurrence, but they're not lost at such, just a little behind the aeroplane :E

Anyway, I should have specifically asked about GA examples. Perhaps it would be better to start off another thread though.


Englishal,

GPS takes all the fun out of being lost, which is why this thread by and large pretends it doesn't exist, just like the JAR teaching syllabus does. :E

[l2kphil]

It might be just me, but...

I have only 5:45 P/uT in my log book and the last of that was 3 years ago. The only nav work I've done to date has been from the right hand seat of somebody elses aeroplane. I'm also a total geek and very much in favour of using the very best that modern technology has to offer, however there is something strangely satisfying about the whole process of plotting the route, checking the metforms and notams, putting the plog together and then on the day, flying a heading at an IAS for a period of time and seeing the waypoints come up where they are supposed to.

I'm sure it's a lot less relaxing when on yer lonesome in the cockpit - that would be the time when I'd be mighty glad of at least one GPS unit!

[flybymike]

Can't Resist the temptation to repeat the famous quote from one particular USAF pilot

" You have never been lost until you have been lost in an SR71 Blackbird" ;)

[n5296s]

Can't Resist the temptation to repeat the famous quote from one particular USAF pilot

" You have never been lost until you have been lost in an SR71 Blackbird"

Actually its "You've never been lost until you've been lost at Mach 3". The point being that a standard rate turn at Mach 3 has a radius of something like 100 miles.

On the thread topic, really the answer is you shouldn't be out on your own until you CAN'T get lost. Even without GPS you have VOR, DME, ... and of course you DO have GPS (or if you don't then you're choosing to get lost every bit as much as if you took off with no charts). But even without GPS, assuming you keep a VOR tuned, better yet two of them, and keep an eye on them, you will not get lost.

Of course if we are in our mythical no-electrics Piper Cub or Tiger Moth, then you'd just better be paying close attention to roads and railways. Bodies of water are about the most helpful thing, in England at least. (Here in California we have mountains which make it a lot easier to figure out where you are, though also a lot more important).

n5296S

[Mark1234]

If that isn't asking to get lost in the near future, I don't know what is :D

[jamestkirk]

With that attitude the chances are you will not find yourself getting lost.

I used to spend hours with students making sure they knew how to plot, read maps etc. Then once they get theie PPL they get a GPS and when they launched off, I could not see a line or time/event waypoint anywhere. One statement I got was 'the batteries on my GPS went half way round and I had no idea where I was'.

So carry on map reading, for all our sakes.

[Der absolute Hammer]

On that stream of thought....
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?

[fireflybob]

On that stream of thought....
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?

I wonder! When I mention to the newbies that we used to fly the B737-200 to the Canaries with only VOR DME (no groundspeed or time to station!) and ADF they look at me aghast! And we had no altitude alert even, the fuel planning and checks were all manual too! It taught us such a lot.

[PPRuNe Radar]

If you squawk 0030 (which means FIR Lost) D&D will know immediately what your problem is (unlike 7700) and where you are before you even speak to them on 121.5. Once they've "got hold of you" you'll be instructed to select 0031 (FIR Found) or a discrete D&D squawk.
0030 is in the SSR Code Allocation Plan.

I've spoken to several D&D controllers about this. Please DO NOT squawk 0030 unless you are instructed to. It is only for use by the FIR sector and the AIP does not specify you can select it without an instruction to do so. If you select it, then it will indeed flash up on D&D, however they will then immediately be contacting the FIR sector to find out about your aircraft. If you are inside CAS, then the ATC unit whose airspace you are in will also be calling the FIR sector, since that is who they think you will be in contact with. All your unauthorised selection of 0030 will do is waste time and effort at the various ATC units (including D&D) who will be trying hard to ensure your lost aircraft poses no threat to other traffic under their control and find out who you are.

If you do become lost, then D&D advise you to initially report your lost status with the ATC unit you are in contact with. They can then co-ordinate a plan of action with D&D to provide appropriate assistance. Squawk as instructed by ATC. If you are not in contact with anyone, then D&D are more than happy to take your call on 121.5. Further, if you are making your lost call initially on 121.5 AND you think you might be in CAS somewhere, they have absolutely no problem with you squawking 7700 immediately. This will not only alert them quickly about your possible aircraft position, it will also alert other ATC units who can then take action to safeguard their traffic before further co-ordinated action is taken by D&D. The important thing is for everyone to recognise that your aircraft is in difficulty (even if only navigational) and to ensure that everyone else is kept safely away from you. The exact nature of your problem will become apparent to affected ATC units as things develop, and as D&D carry out the job they are highly trained for.

[DaveD]

I'm doing my PPL at the moment and i'm soon to go on my solo nav. I'd be quite worried after passing my PPL if I got lost and didn't know how to get back on track. Perhaps you should give your original instructor a call instead of getting LOTS of mixed ideas about what to do some of which are probably incorrect. You shoudn't need to call an ATC, that's for sure!

[IO540]

I think I have said this before, but nobody should worry unduly about getting lost.

On your within-PPL-training solo flights, the route will be carefully chosen to be really obvious and in good weather only. Your instructor is responsible for you and he doesn't want any comeback.

When you get your PPL, you get yourself a decent big GPS, read the manual, and use that for all flight, and you won't get lost. Learn to use VOR/DME and use that as a concurrent backup, and then you definitely won't get lost.

[wrecker]

A question to those that know..... 7300 used to be "lost " is it still recognised by D&D?

[PPRuNe Radar]

7300 is not allocated in the UK, so the purpose of anyone selecting it will be unknown to any ATC unit here.

[PPRuNe Radar]

When you get your PPL, you get yourself a decent big GPS, read the manual, and use that for all flight, and you won't get lost. Learn to use VOR/DME and use that as a concurrent backup, and then you definitely won't get lost.

I agree totally. However, if you infringe Controlled Airspace without a clearance, who are you going to blame ? :)

[flybymike]

Obviously the Americans, for sending out dodgy GPS signals.

[IO540]

However, if you infringe Controlled Airspace without a clearance, who are you going to blame ?

How would you infringe CAS with a clearance?

:) :)

Funnily enough the UK CAA won't give a **** how you were navigating when it happened.

[DaveD]

I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice... What do you do if your instruments fail? Or your GPS packs in? Learn the other methods... it's better to have them under your belt rather than relying on a piece of equipment that might break on you. Also, not all planes have GPS.. so if you find yourself wanting to rent an airplane are you going to say to them, "oh it doesn't have GPS, i might get lost...":D

[Pace]

I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice... What do you do if your instruments fail? Or your GPS packs in? Learn the other methods... it's better to have them under your belt rather than relying on a piece of equipment that might break on you. Also, not all planes have GPS.. so if you find yourself wanting to rent an airplane are you going to say to them, "oh it doesn't have GPS, i might get lost...

Dave

I agree with you that it is important to have all your skills available to you as you never know when you might need those skills.

We have become so used to fancy GPS displays that modern pilots can get very lazy many not even bothering with any sort of flight planning because of GPS.

I can remember flying a Citation From Nice to Gatwick in winter at night. This one was a late citation 2 with FMC and Glass displays. We had all the route loaded. It was so easy just to put in the airway entry and departure points and see a clear display of all the waypoints stream out on the glass displays together with the sids and stars.

All of a sudden all the screens went black and it was a case of out with the charts and direct to VOR requests. The thought of flying one of the numerous Gatwick arrivals conventionally was a real brain tester.

Luckely we got the system up and running before starting down into Gatwick.

It is important to have all your traditional navigation skills well honed and then add the luxury of GPS because you never know when you might need them.

Pace

[DOC.400]

K.I.S.S.......

Some personal events that have happened to me over the last eighteen years come to mind.......

I'm flying DR Waltham to Henstridge (I have no GPS.....:eek:) with an experienced rotary pilot next to me....unknown to us, westerly headings on the compass are 15-20 degrees out!! A quick call to 121.5 soon puts us back on track......

I recently get radio failure about to call Farnboro radar on a trip from Waltham to Goodwood. Squawk 7600 and after landing back at Waltham they inform me that Farnboro rang them on the landline to let them know a plane with radio failure was returning!! Comforting to know it works.....

Having visited D&D some years ago, we watched as an incident with a Tornado unfold on the Scottish borders -as soon as the pilot announced his problem, various red lines appeared on their map display from slave radar stations around the country, pinpointing the problem a/c -same would happen if you squawk 7700. Another comforting event!

Flying IMC from the north back to Waltham some years ago, I inadvertently select 7700 instead of 7000 after dumping Luton Radar. When I realised I spoke to D&D to let them know it WASN'T an emergency -they said, 'yes, we saw you and thanks for letting us know.'

Just going back to the training, isn't this covered in the sillybus any more -I remember a number of practice calls, both MAYDAY and PAN -OP should talk to an instructor and go and do some -it's no big deal!!!:ok:

Oh, and K.I.S.S.?

Keep It Simple Stupid..........

PS I may be Old School -but I'm concerned at the number of posters relying on GPS......

[Final 3 Greens]

Mmmmm.....

The normal anti technology bias from some posters on this thread.

IMHO, one should not rely on any single form of navigation, but should have at least 2-3 sources to cross check.

For example, relying on a compass when flying DR is asking for a problem - we've all probably done it on short flights, but nonetheless it isn't good practice IMHO.

If cross checking compass/GPS, that problem will soon be spotted.

Likewise, if the GPS freezes, comparison of the chart timings/positions will soon highight that problem, too.

For me, a combination of DR, GPS, pilotage and VOR is a reasonable solution, backed up by 121.5 and the training fix system (not to be absued, but it is there - I have used it once since qualifying in 1994 and it helped to avoid an infringement of the Stansted zone.

If it all goes horribly pear shaped, then an early pan or mayday should be made.

[IO540]

Let's ban the internet. It's dangerous - you might find the weather is OK to fly, get airborne, and then get caught in some nasty stuff, and die. If there was no internet, you would have lived.

QED.

[BEagle]

Properly used, GPS will certainly reduce the chance of getting 'lost', I agree. But it's still vulnerable to 'Gi-Go' if used incorrectly.

As a minimum, I personally like a line on a paper map as well even when using a GPS route.

If you DO become lost, admit it. Then seek help. All the old 'percentage of distance flown since last position fix' stuff was fine in the days of few airways and Tiger Moths without wireless, but will probably be a waste of time nowadays and you'd inevitably end up somewhere uninvited! Far better to tell whoever you're talking to (if they have radar); if not then the nice chaps at D&D will help to keep you out of the smelly stuff. A low time, relatively inexperienced pilot uncertain of his/her position in the south east UK probably does merit an 'urgency' call, I would suggest.

[LH2]

I agree totally. However, if you infringe Controlled Airspace without a clearance, who are you going to blame ?

The CAA and NATS of course, for being so anal with regards to controlled airspace in the first place. Hire more controllers and install new radars and then it'll be just like in the developed world. :ok:

How would you infringe CAS with a clearance?

By deviating from it? ;)

[LH2]

I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice...

Thanks very much for your novel point of view--never heard here before. Just so we can put the right weight onto your statement, care to enlighten us as to what your qualifications and level of experience exactly are?

Not to dismiss any truth in your statement out of hand, but it sounds a bit naïve, on the "this is what my instructor told me so it must be true" side. If you care to read a few pages back you will see that it's been mentioned that for your PPL (and CPL) you should be taught to use everything you've got in your aircraft, GPS included. Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs. In real-world flying a GPS will quickly become your best friend, so forget whatever crap your instructor might have fed you.

This from someone who does not use GPS for flying (enough of it on my day job)--I like my steam gauges, and if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it. I fly just for the fun of it and I'm not really that bothered :}

[flybymike]

Dave D, If you are renting an aeroplane and it "doesnt have GPS," you always have the option of using a portable one.

[IO540]

I personally like a line on a paper map as well even when using a GPS route.

This is a very valid point. I am sure the majority of the anti-GPS views (well, ignoring the really daft ones) are based around not carrying any paper plan whatsoever.

There is persistent pilot forum rumour that people actually do that, but I don't know anybody (with a brain, and a PPL) who does that.

Myself, on every flight, a short VFR hop or a 900nm airways route, always carry a whole-route printout, enroute 1"=10nm sections (on long trips), and a plog.

Not a wind corrected plog, mind you... because I plan to always use radio nav. If the GPS satellites got shot down by Putin, I would use VORs (and advise ATC), and if I got a total electrical failure I would use the Garmin 496 in the yoke and fly the filed route by sticking one waypoint in after another, off the printed plog, using DCT.

By deviating from it?

Ah, but if you were OCAS initially, no ATC unit would have had the authority to issue any kind of "clearance" anyway ;)

[silverelise]

Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet: get yourself an IR
Great. So there's our humble PPL, bimbling along uncertain of position, flying the aeroplane, looking out the window, checking the map, wondering who to talk to and now he has to read a book and complete a multi choice exam too? :eek:
:p

[englishal]

Why do people assume that GPS users "rely" on GPS and lose all sense of airmanship?

When VFR I have my map too.....I'll look down at a town and cross reference the town with my map and GPS. I can then look into the distance and say "right, that is town X" and verify with map and GPS and even if my GPS failed I'd know where I was.

Likewise when flying an instrument approach, say VOR, I'd have the nav gear setup using the VOR and cross reference that to GPS / moving map. If my GPS had the ability I'd sequence the VOR approach in GPS too. Makes life much safer.

If I am going somewhere long distance then I'd take a plog generated on the PC using current winds - mainly for the fuel calcs. Short distances I may take one or may not....

[Jim59]

Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs.



Ummm.
This is getting off topic somewhat but should not be allowed to pass without some comment. Unless you are arriving at the one and only UK airfield with an approved GPS instrument approach (Shoreham) then unless you are doing an SRA or ILS approach then VOR or ADF are your only other legal (and safe) options. Last time I went into Southampton in IMC I used the VOR and ignored the GPS in the cockpit.

[IO540]

Last time I went into Southampton in IMC I used the VOR and ignored the GPS in the cockpit.

Now there's a great piece of safety management.

[Fuji Abound]

How many critical components do we rely on?

1. The engine - now if you have only got one, its pretty critical,
2. The pilot - ah yes, pretty critical and there is only one of those as well,
3. The prop - not a lot of good when part of a bade detaches,
4. Even the throttle cable - it concentrates the mind when it snaps and the engine stays where you last put it,
5. Etc

We love system duality. That is why we usually have two fuel pumps, and two mags. There is a chance of the GPS failing, or the MDF going blank, but there is not much chance of that happening at the same time as the backup GPS in your bag failing.

Simple, by all means rely on GPS for navigation, but if you do, go to the small expense of taking a spare with you.

I bet if you do the engine or the pilot or the prop will quit long before both GPS units quit at the same time.

Now how much redundancy do you want?

As for big boys flying instruments with GA glass cockpits these days about the only nav instruments you are going to be left with when the sh** hits the fan is the magnetic compass so best you check the backup GPS in your flight bag works. :)

[Jim59]

Last time I went into Southampton in IMC I used the VOR and ignored the GPS in the cockpit.
Now there's a great piece of safety management.


If you are are on instruments, using dual VOR with DME to navigate and receiving a Radar Advisory Service why do you imply that including a GPS in your scan as well is a good way to be spending your time? It it all starts to go pear-shaped or something packs up it will still be there to fall back on. I was responding to the suggestion in a previous post that ADF and VOR are not the instruments to be used for navigation in this situation. I don't agree with the earlier post.

[Fuji Abound]

If you are are on instruments, using dual VOR with DME to navigate and receiving a Radar Advisory Service why do you imply that including a GPS in your scan as well is a good way to be spending your time?

Here is a question any one can answer (if they wish).

Your flight deck is glass - you have a screen displaying the instrument approach procedure as a nice magenta line (or if you like your non instrument course as a series of VOR turning points). The autopilot is flying the aircraft. You can either use the dual IFR certified GPS for navigation or you can use the appropriate VORs, but not both - which do you select and why?

(The point being that on many glass panels for primary nav you can do one or the other - although I accept you can monitor a different nav aid on the PDF)

[IO540]

If you are are on instruments, using dual VOR with DME to navigate and receiving a Radar Advisory Service why do you imply that including a GPS in your scan as well is a good way to be spending your time? It it all starts to go pear-shaped or something packs up it will still be there to fall back on. I was responding to the suggestion in a previous post that ADF and VOR are not the instruments to be used for navigation in this situation. I don't agree with the earlier post.
Not sure how you got a RAS since Southampton is Class D and you cannot get an RAS in CAS.

If you were going to land there you would get radar vectors to the ILS, so you fly as directed until localiser established and then track the GS.

Or, if you want practice, you fly the procedural ILS or whatever, and it is 100% legal to use a GPS (in OBS mode, etc) to supplement the VOR information. In the private flight context, the ANO specifies equipment to be carried. No law states what equipment should be used.

If you were merely tracking via SAM then you would get RCS once inside their CAS, and perhaps a RIS outside, although one could go for an RAS too (do you pilot one of the cheap airlines which flies in Class G? - they often ask for a RAS as per their OPS manual). And you can fly via SAM using the VOR info, the GPS (with SAM as a waypoint), or both, as you wish, all 100% legit.

Sensibly, SAM would be tuned in anyway.

[Jim59]

Not sure how you got a RAS since Southampton is Class D and you cannot get an RAS in CAS.

If you were going to land there you would get radar vectors to the ILS, so you fly as directed until localiser established and then track the GS.

Or, if you want practice, you fly the procedural ILS or whatever, and it is 100% legal to use a GPS (in OBS mode, etc) to supplement the VOR information. In the private flight context, the ANO specifies equipment to be carried. No law states what equipment should be used.



Hi,

I had obtained prior permission to fly to S'ton. Shortly after Compton, in IMC, I made contact, requested and received a Radar Advisory Service - which became Radar Control only on entry into the zone. As always I was on my own navigation prior to zone entry. Since I was already more-or-less on the runway-in-use centre-line I elected to do a VOR/DME approach, permission for which was granted so vectors were not necessary.

I believe that by law one is only allowed to fly a 'published' instrument approach. The legality of using a GPS to fly a VOR/DME or ILS approach I leave to others who know the law better to comment on. I guess as long as the VOR is working & correctly set for the approach one could use the GPS as long as the VOR is there as backup if needed.

Anyway, I think we have deviated from the original thread so I shall let it rest.

[Piper.Classique]

I didn't realise my piper cub was mythical, but when I went to look it was still in the hangar where I thought I left it. I don't own a GPS except for the one in the PLB, so I do work with a map and compass. Sure, I've been somewhat lost (the polite euphumism is "uncertain of my position") a few times but always managed to get unlost, usually by all the boring ways that went out of date with the invention of the VOR, sometimes with the help of a QDM or two.
Most controllers of all sorts are pretty keen to help, if you sing out early, before charging through their instrument approach pattern.
To get back to the poster's original point, it's about proper preflight planning preventing piss poor performance. Spend all the time you need to plan on the ground, a lot of planning can be done days before going flying. Once you have your ppl you can invite a more experienced pilot to come along (just make sure to agree who is P1 before you start the engine :) ) and confirm your nav a few times, he/she can just concentrate on keeping a running position check going and doesn't need to speak up unless you ask for help. Practice really does make perfect, ask your instructor!

As to what you squawk, that is up to your perception of how serious the situation is. It could warrant a mayday call and appropriate transponder code (assuming you have one, I don't) but I suspect that unless there were aggravating factors such as low fuel state or deteriorating weather that might be overkill. A simple pan call would probably be more appropriate in most cases. Get your instructor to show you how the system works with a practice pan, it really does give you confidence that the day you need it, it will work.

PS Handheld GPS is a cheap backup if you want one, but please please please learn to use it on the ground first, not once you are lost, head down in the cockpit reading the manual :E

Sorry, didn't see you actually had your licence. You can still talk to your instructor though.......

[DaveD]

Thanks very much for your novel point of view--never heard here before. Just so we can put the right weight onto your statement, care to enlighten us as to what your qualifications and level of experience exactly are?

Not to dismiss any truth in your statement out of hand, but it sounds a bit naïve, on the "this is what my instructor told me so it must be true" side. If you care to read a few pages back you will see that it's been mentioned that for your PPL (and CPL) you should be taught to use everything you've got in your aircraft, GPS included. Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs. In real-world flying a GPS will quickly become your best friend, so forget whatever crap your instructor might have fed you.

This from someone who does not use GPS for flying (enough of it on my day job)--I like my steam gauges, and if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it. I fly just for the fun of it and I'm not really that bothered http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


(Sigh) :ugh:

Well I'm doing my PPL at the moment, 7 hours solo, first solo nav after 15, in fact, I did it today, this is however irrelevant to this topic. This is about someone who's just passed their PPL, and obviously hasn't been taught properly and wants advice.

I hope to god you never think about becoming an instructor, because it's probably people like you which is the reason that he's come out of his PPL without the simple knowledge of knowing how to get back on track after getting lost. Who said anything about fast aircraft's? I highly doubt someone who's just passed their PPL, and is probably hour building is going to go flying into London Heathrow, unless of course their looking forward to paying a hefty bill.

if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it

That's great advice... just fly to something that looks distinctly correct and everything will be ok and if not, oh well... i've got a GPS. Great advice, really good. :D

If what your saying is true, that your day job is more than just VFR flying, then i'd have expected a better response. :hmm:

[Lister Noble]

Now,now girls,nearly bedtime.:}

[DaveD]

Seriously though? It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies..

[what next]

Hello!

It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies.

We wouldn't look so good, if there were no bad ones for comparison ;)

Greetings, Max

But seriously: Compass, map & stopwatch navigation is still an important part of the (JAR-) PPL syllabus, both in theory and in practical flying. Even more so in the practical part of the CPL course. Therefore, the necessary skills to get un-lost again should be there in every new PPL holder. However, like many others have said before me, I also would recommend not to get lost in the first place. And the best insurance against getting lost are naviagtion aids such as GPS and VOR. Central Europen airspace is really not the place where you want to be unsure of your position at any moment. And if it ever should happen, call for help _before_ trying to sort out your problem alone. Every second that passes brings you closer to the flight path of an airliner or military aircraft.

[DaveD]

Hello!

Quote:
It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies.
We wouldn't look so good, if there were no bad ones for comparison http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Greetings, Max

But seriously: Compass, map & stopwatch navigation is still an important part of the (JAR-) PPL syllabus, both in theory and in practical flying. Even more so in the practical part of the CPL course. Therefore, the necessary skills to get un-lost again should be there in every new PPL holder. However, like many others have said before me, I also would recommend not to get lost in the first place. And the best insurance against getting lost are naviagtion aids such as GPS and VOR. Central Europen airspace is really not the place where you want to be unsure of your position at any moment. And if it ever should happen, call for help _before_ trying to sort out your problem alone. Every second that passes brings you closer to the flight path of an airliner or military aircraft.

Definitely, I mean im 23 years old, i'm not against technology, infact I love it, and by all means if you have a GPS and know how to use it then do, but the basics of finding your track should still be known like the back of your hand.. I wouldn't say call for help straight away, if you find yourself lost, pick an area below that you can recognise and orbit it, like a football pitch... then use the methods to get Un-Lost!

[LH2]

Jim,

I believe that by law one is only allowed to fly a 'published' instrument approach

I assume you mean that if, for example, you have a 15DME arc as part of some procedure, you must fly that using your DME? If that's what you mean, it's not quite correct. Essentially, you have to fly the track and profile which says on the plate, but how you do it is entirely up to you. You will notice for instance that airliners fly with reference to their nav solution, which is determined from a number of inputs duly weighted and filtered.

Another example closer to the GA world: flying a procedure once where the MAP was overhead an NDB which was inop. By your reasoning, that procedure could not be flown--in actual fact, you work out the MAP from whichever other information you have--it could be a DME reading or a GPS fix or an INS solution or your mom on the phone , it doesn't matter.

as long as she is certified nav equipment.


I was responding to the suggestion in a previous post that ADF and VOR are not the instruments to be used for navigation in this situation. I don't agree with the earlier post

The above notwithstanding, which hopefully explains the difference between what you have to carry and what you can use, a typical example is you're cleared on a SID and as soon as you're airborne and switch over to radar, they give you a direct to some reporting point 80nm away. You could of course work out the offset angle from some VOR and fly a series of VORDME cross-cuts or whatever, but the controller is not going to be impressed one bit. In practise and in order of preference you either hit D-> on your GPS, request a vector, or decline the clearance. The last two are likely to annoy the controller, especially the latter since it now means he cannot get you out of the way as he was hoping to make space for someone else.

Bottom line, you use whatever works best to get you there safely and efficiently.

If you have done your IR in the UK, you will have noticed that the vast majority of IR instructors (+ examiners) there do not have any actual IFR experience outside their training environment so sometimes you have to take their words with a pinch of salt or two.


Dave,

Well I'm doing my PPL at the moment, 7 hours solo, first solo nav after 15, in fact, I did it today

Ah, Ok. Well, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

This is about someone who's just passed their PPL, and obviously hasn't been taught properly and wants advice

So that's where you come in with less than half his meagre experience and put him right. Isn't that quaint! :}

[Final 3 Greens]

I wouldn't say call for help straight away, if you find yourself lost, pick an area below that you can recognise and orbit it, like a football pitch... then use the methods to get Un-Lost!

Bad call my friend.

If you are lost, you do not know whether you are in or outside controlled airspace, overflying a restricted or danger area etc.

Under these circumstances, an immediate call to D&D on 121.5 is needed, to do anything else is poor airmanship as you may be interfering with other air traffic.

The only time I ever started to feel unsure of position was on a hazy day ,with no clear landmarks and I called 121.5 for a training fix.

This told me, within 10 seconds, where I was (still over a mile outside CAS) and allowed me to re-establish certain navigation.

Of course that was in the days before GPS, or I would never have got close to CAS.

So if lost, please do not b*gger around, get help.

The D&D want you to do this and so does all the traffic in your locality.

At 7 hours TT, your instructor is unlikely to have shown you the procedures yet, but when s/he does, listen carefully as it could save lives.

[PompeyPaul]

So if lost, please do not b*gger around, get help.

The D&D want you to do this and so does all the traffic in your locality.
Is there any action to be completed, if you do this, when back on the ground ? Do you have to fill in any forms or anything like that ?

[Final 3 Greens]

Assuming you have not transgressed, a training fix has no form filling associated with it, as far as I know.

[DaveD]

So that's where you come in with less than half his meagre experience and put him right. Isn't that quaint! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

That's strange, I don't remember putting him right about anything, rather just replying to your bad airmanship attitude.?

[jamestkirk]

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Some of your ideas go from idiotic to childish.

Also, you wrote;
Essentially, you have to fly the track and profile which says on the plate, but how you do it is entirely up to you.

WRONG yet again. Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law, irrelevant if you are equiped with a IRS and nav display.

If you have done your IR in the UK, you will have noticed that the vast majority of IR instructors (+ examiners) there do not have any actual IFR experience outside their training environment so sometimes you have to take their words with a pinch of salt or two.

IN WHAT WAY? Normally alot of those instructors have done more IFR flying/SPO's in demanding conditions than some airline pilots.

What on earth gives you the experience to question the knowledge of an IR instructor. Please give us your examples of when you had to take advice 'with a pinch of salt'. What type if IR flying were you doing. I guess that you have done some with a UK IR instructor.

You say you fly for fun. Then don't feel you are qaulified to give advice to people on this forum who are learning and trying to get good sound advice. Your previous comments generally show that you do not have the knowledge or attitude to do so.

[what next]

Hello!

Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law,...

Just out of curiousity: Where and how do those airliners fly? In my part of the world BRNAV-capability (e.g. RNP-5) has been introduced as a mandatory requirement for IFR flying from 1998 on. There were some exemtions in the beginning, but now you can't go IFR flying in a Pa28 unless it has an approved BRNAV installation.

Greetings, Max

[LH2]

Hi James,

apparently the hyperbolic bits in my writing are causing you affliction :)

You really have no idea what you are talking about

Fine, then don't listen to me. You know how to use the "ignore" feature, do you? :rolleyes:

Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law,

An authoritative source for the second statement in your sentence, please? You will also note that I did not mention RNAV, only the presence of a sophisticated autopilot outer-loop control structure of some sort. :cool:

Normally alot of those instructors have done more IFR flying/SPO's in demanding conditions than some airline pilots.

I don't question that for a minute, with the way they make it difficult for themselves :p

What on earth gives you the experience to question the knowledge of an IR instructor

That in itself is an ingenuous question.

Then don't feel you are qaulified to give advice to people on this forum who are learning and trying to get good sound advice.

Trying to get good sound flying advice from an internet forum? :eek: Now I'm worried :bored:

Pointers to information, yes, broad opinions, ok, but advice? I would have thought only a creationist would feel brave enough to do so. :E

Your previous comments generally show that you do not have the knowledge or attitude to do so.

Oh, we definitely agree about the attitude, and mostly so about the knowledge. :}

[LH2]

What Next,

Just out of curiousity: Where and how do those airliners fly? In my part of the world BRNAV-capability (e.g. RNP-5) has been introduced as a mandatory requirement for IFR flying from 1998 on

That's a good point. I do note that 82% of European airways above FL90 have an RNAV requirement and yes, anyone flying any half-serious IFR in Europe is assumed to be BRNAV capable, your typical bugsmasher included (I wonder how many UK IR instructors know that, let alone train their students for).

Don't have a reference at hand for the exact number, sorry. I read it in some Eurocontrol publication.

[jamestkirk]

You keep not answering a question. So let me ask it again.

What experience do you have and what are your first hand experiences to say that you should take the advice of UK IR instructors (+ examiners)
with a pinch of salt? How much flying have you doen with them? How much of IR instructing have you done to make a comparison?

And I assume you mean CAA examiners in the above. How many have tested you?.

You keep making sweeping statements. I can ignore you but your advice may have a bearing on inexperienced people on this forum.

Can you answer the above question with honesty and without your usual copy/paste method

------------------------------

To answer someones elses question. The airliner that I fly is glass cockpit but the CAA has not approved it for RNAV dep/arr. We have an overlay but must use raw data. Yes we can follow lines but it must be backed up by the former. I have been told there are some other like that but cannot recall which types.

[LH2]

Hi James,

still on the wrong side of bed today? :p

You keep not answering a question. So let me ask it again.

Just to be a pedant, "keep" above implies continuity or repetition, neither of which is applicable because a) you had only asked once and, b) I did answer to you, as you will see a couple posts above.

However, to clarify a bit, I have trained in three different countries so far (France, UK, Spain) and I am in a position (not just by having trained there) to compare the training and the levels of experience and competence of "typical" instructors, as well as the flying environment as a whole. From my point of view, the UK comes in at a distant third--I have discussed the details before so won't repeat them here.

This is not to say there aren't, e.g., good instructors in the UK (mine were, actually) or crap instructors elsewhere (I could tell a few stories :rolleyes:), but as a whole the UK training environment (PPL and commercial, pre-type rating anyway) is absolute, worthless, pathetic rubbish (but, mind you, full of arrogant, self-aggrandising, insular provincials who think otherwise so it's self-perpetuating).

So, sorry but unless you have something else to meaningfully compare against, there is no point in even asking your question, which is why I told you that was ingenuous.

Now, on first reading you would appear to disagree with my assertion, so could you tell me why, in your view, you should not apply seasoning to certain advice from the aforementioned? Perhaps a few specific examples would help, if you would want to discuss them for the sake of argument:

* Advice to squawk 7300(?) if one gets lost (given on another thread a few days ago by some instructor)
* Not ensuring that students are fully proficient with all their nav kit--systematically, literally hours are spent explaining the fine details of how a VOR works and students spend hours in front of that RATS software or whatever it's called. Yet, not a single minute of the syllabus is dedicated to teaching those students how to use the onboard GPS, or practising with it. (seen first-hand in the UK, discussed with friends)
* "I'll teach you the speed-with-power, ROD-with-yoke method because that's what airliners use"... in a PA28 :rolleyes: (heard from a fellow student)
* Trying to descend below MSRA in IMC (UK-trained instructor I had the displeasure to carry onboard once)
* The endless discussions here about whether such-and-such merits a PAN or a MAYDAY call, as if it's going to make the slightest bit of difference to ATC.

So what say you? Grain of salt or not?

You keep making sweeping statements.

I am offended by that sweeping statement!!! :}

I can ignore you but your advice may have a bearing on inexperienced people on this forum.

Oh yes, forgot the poor buggers cannot think for themselves and apply some critical thinking.

Can you answer the above question with honesty

No sorry, that would make me more enemies than you could imagine. I have given you the polite answer above :)

and without your usual copy/paste method

Nope. Saves typing.

[DaveD]

This guy... seriously?

I hope I don't end up like this when I get old.

[jamestkirk]

I was specific about the question and your original statement.

So your not going to answer the question. Just your rambling nonsense.

teach you the speed-with-power, ROD-with-yoke method because that's what airliners use"... in a PA28 (heard from a fellow student)

Its actually speed with power, aim point with elevators. Used for approach and it is taught and used in many disciplines. And a very useful method. Its called 'constant aspect approach'. I have used it in light aircraft and airliners. It is used by the RAF and many EXPERIENCED insructors train it. Actually my FI instructor taught that after his 30 years in the RAF

I know you will have some strange and ridiculous reason from all your experience!!! why that is wrong but try to understand that on this forum there is a plethora of experience and you should try a be a little more open to ideas.

So, its a yes or no answer. Have you been taught by UK IR instructors, on an IR and examined by an IR examiner. You will not answer it clearly but I will take it as a no. So still confused of how you say take thier advice with a pinch of salt. Its quite an insulting statement to make.

And for your information, I got out of bed in the afternoon and cannot remember which side it was as the room was relatively dark.

[jamestkirk]

I want him to post his hours, licence type and nationality. He keeps calling us regional or something eqaully verbose. I bet he won't though.

And Dave. You won't end up like him/her. I have seen your posts and you give the impression of reasonality.

What LH2 does not understand is that FI's generally have a passion for keeping their students safe and want to give them the best grounding for safe flying. In my opinion , teaching how to use a GPS before teaching competance and the rewarding skill of map reading and in flight planning is dangerous at best. Technology can come after licence issue.

An FI has a responsibilty to give good, sound and correct advice while trying to be supportive. So I get a little riled by individuals who give bad advice and no experience in the discipline.

[DaveD]

I think he's typing an elaborate over the top post as we speak..

[Stephen Furner]

In a recent copy of Flyer there was a handy booklet from the Royal Institute of Navigation (RIN) on "Visual Navigation Techniques for Pilots". Section 3.10 Uncertain of Position from this booklet provides the answer to your question and also provides guidance on what to do if lost rather than uncertain in sub-section 3.10.3.

Navigation is part of the experience of flying and dealing with the challenges it throws up is part of what makes flying fun to do. Had you thought of having a go at the Top Nav contest to build on and consolidate your PLL skills? Top Nav | Royal Institute of Navigation -- (http://www.rin.org.uk/news-events/competitions/top-nav)

[LH2]

James,

Ok, so you're feeling hurt, offended, molested, insulted, aggravated, etc., etc., because in your opinion I'm talking nonsense on a web forum?

And yet, you're not only talking nonsense , you're actually teaching it to paying punters who don't know any better. Now that would make me feel guilty. :uhoh:


In the opinion of some.


Now you've discussed two of the examples I've given you. Sorry you misunderstood my comment about the technique for flying the approach--it's not the specific method that I was questioning, but the reason given. My thought was along the lines of "how about you teach to fly a PA28 right now, then we'll worry about airliners during the type rating", but never mind. It was rather amusing, but you had to be there :)

Your comment about (not) teaching how to use a GPS, however, that is worrying, and IMO representative of the general UK view on the subject. I would be interested to know what prevents you from teaching that in addition to map reading[**] before you let them loose with a licence in their hands.

One caveat though: If you want to carry on a discussion with me (assuming your blood pressure permits :}), you must use proper grammar, spelling, and syntax. I'm not having a cheap shot as such, I'm just a bit conservative on that particular issue. Things like "impression of reasonality" :bored: and "teaching competance" :sad: are rather painful to the eye.


[**] However a wonderful skill that might be.

[Final 3 Greens]

Its actually speed with power, aim point with elevators

Bit of a problem on a PA28, as it has a stabilitor.

This thread seems to have degenerated into pie flinging and I hope it has now run its course.

[PompeyPaul]

I think he's typing an elaborate over the top post as we speak..
Hey Dave! You have the same birthday as me!

[jamestkirk]

YOU STILL have'nt answered the question! Either of them.[
And the reason you won't is spelling. You have confirmed your level of airmanship and knowledge with that statement.


Final3Green.

Bit of a problem on a PA28, as it has a stabilitor.

Why does'nt anyone tell me these things.

And yes your right, I will stop as its pointless.

[Pace]

Its actually speed with power, aim point with elevators. Used for approach and it is taught and used in many disciplines. And a very useful method. Its called 'constant aspect approach'. I have used it in light aircraft and airliners. It is used by the RAF and many EXPERIENCED insructors train it. Actually my FI instructor taught that after his 30 years in the RAF

This is a long going arguement covered here before.
Taking the basic aircraft a Glider in still air you can only use the elevator to control your speed. I like to think of the elevator as another throttle which taps into the potential energy of the airframe.

Move up into a low powered and draggy aircraft and while you now have a low powered aircraft pitching for speed is more important especially with low time pilots who could get on the back of the drag curve, not have enough engine power and stall/spin.

Where the aircraft has an abundance of engine power pitching for speed becomes less relevant.

In reality it is neither pitching for speed or power for speed but a blend of the two.
I think of it as two energy supplies. One from the engine and one from the potential energy in the aircraft, Tap in with either the throttles or by pitching but it is a matter of playing with and using both.

I too like to power for speed as the dominant source but realise that in low powered aircraft with students pitching for speed can be the dominant and safer way.

As to students not being taught to use GPS that is the old way. Years ago you were not even taught to use the ADF. It was a puritan way and in my opinion a blinkered way. If its there use it.

Pace

[englishal]

On an IAP I'd pitch to maintain glide path and power for speed.

On an approach into a short grass strip, I'd pitch for speed and power for glide path.

Regarding GPS - almost every single boat which navigates out of sight of land will be doing so by GPS.

[Lurking123]

I think Pace's use of the word 'blend' nicely describes the whole pitch/power thing.

[DaveD]

Hey Dave! You have the same birthday as me! Awsome!


I would be interested to know what prevents you from teaching that in addition to map readingHe didn't say "In addition" he said "Before", and he's right, the simple navigation should really come first, because after all, it's fail-safe, when done right. (With a working clock) :)

[Piper.Classique]

He didn't say "In addition" he said "Before", and he's right, the simple navigation should really come first, because after all, it's fail-safe, when done right. (With a working clock)

Agreed
And a decent compass unless the sun is shining.
No batteries needed

[SoundBarrier]

Right,

I have read all seven pages and these last few of slinging pies can be covered by PM's don't you think?

In summary there are some issues I would like to highlight:-
1. Asking for re-teaching (or initial teaching) of the PPL getting lost procedure is probably in order for the original poster. HOWEVER, We're all assuming that this original poster did not get taught this, his question could have been "on top of the usual stuff what else can I do?"(Like the calls for rules of thumb which there are heaps on these forums). There have been many good answers to this question.

2. We have had people from D&D say, "Call us we will help!" yet we have posters saying, "don't call unless really needed." I think this becomes a personal preference, although I don't fly in the UK I would be inclined to call. Better to ask for help early than say a very big sorry to a very big aeroplane and filling in lots of forms! It comes down to airmanship really, "situational awareness"..Helloooo!

3. There is nothing wrong with using a GPS. Totally relying on said GPS to me is an issue, so back it up with your other skills - DR and other Nav equipment. I actually try and use DR (with a GPS backup) GPS covered or turned off means I can have fun looking outside and seeing things. After all I am paying a fair amount for the view. No I don't fly IFR.

4. I have been "geographically embarrassed" before, several times. I have used all available to me, even other aircraft in range. A bit of an experience but I bought a few guys a few beers in the bar that night. Personally I would love to be able to help out if someone else was in that position.

And that all I have to say about that.

[DavidHoul52]

I haven't read much of this thread so far so apologies if what follows is totally irrelevant.

I have no GPS and use DR and following features to navigate. Last Sunday I flew from Stapleford to Bourn and then from Bourn to overhead Ely. Nav was a piece of cake.

Different story when I turned south to head back home. The sun was in my eyes. I missed the A10. I had changed my planned route due to advice from the "Captain" at Bourn but had not worked out a heading. I suddenly felt horribly confused.

I decided to head 200 - 210 degrees as I knew the instrument approach to Cambridge was to the East and that I wanted to be west abeam of Cambridge. I came upon a built up area but Cambridge has two "horns" heading out NE and NW - so which bit was I flying over?

I few minutes later I thought I must now be west of the city but where are the Backs? A minute or so later I spotted the Kings College Chapel.

One is seldom as lost as one thinks one is!

More trouble ahead though. I reckoned I should see Duxford or my left. Yes indeed but should I be so close to the ATZ at 2000 feet? Better gain some height.

Not a good idea! Essex Radar demanded to know who was squawking 0013 and did they know they were in Controlled airspace! Make a right turn immediately!

I did as requested and gave my details. How the hell did I get so close to Stansted? (thinking I was in the SFC-3500 feet zone). After flying west for a while I turned again south only to have ATC on my back again. Of course I was in 2500 - 3500 class D which in my panic I had forgotten about! I still didn't cotton on, thinking I was still too far east at the same time knowing that I couldn't possibly be. Where was I?

ATC confirmed that my flying at 2000 feet was now fine by them so I carried on south-south-eastish, feeling bewildered but thinking that at least I would spot the M25 if nothing else.

Just then I saw the A10 and Buntingford out the left window. I was 100% on track! I descended to 1300 feet as there's the stub near Ware but tricky to spot the actual start.

Lessons to learn

- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.

and finally

- don't panic if you think you are lost - you probably aren't!

[Final 3 Greens]

David

Well done for not panicking and recovering.

But your story seems to me to be the perfect sales pitch for a GPS as secondary data to your DR.

Safe flying

[DavidHoul52]

Yes, it did occur to me afterwards that buying a GPS might make my flying somewhat less stressful - and also save me from being busted by the CAA!

[Piper.Classique]

Lessons to learn

- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.


Quite so.
As I mentioned earlier, proper preflight planning prevents piss poor performance.

You might also add time marks and drift lines to your disposable map. Good system, memory map. I use a laser printer so the ink doesn't run, but probably your aeroplane is more rainproofed than mine.


But you did get unlost, so well done anyway. ;)

[olderndirt]

May have missed it but, in this 'getting lost' discussion, didn't notice any mention of fuel state. Getting that plane trimmed for best endurance is always a good thing when you're lost. Hopefully you won't stay lost long but, if you do, it's always better with the motor still running.

[S-Works]

How does one get oneself lost?

[olderndirt]

Not so much how as when. Like landing gear-up; there are those who have and those who're going to.

[Hoots Mon]

I was flying from Humberside to Gamston and couldn't see the large lump of Gamston tarmac in the failing light of a winters afternoon. I'm a student ppl, doing my LXC, so not allowed a GPS. I'd been too busy talking to Donnie, deviating off track to avoid some of their traffic and to advise them of my passage near their CAS - and didn't Navigate before Communicating. I didn't tune into Gamstons VOR until it was too late as things had gone too perfectly in the flight. I *knew* I was in the area, I identified roads, motorways, railways, towns - but could I hell see the tarmac! So I fly in circles for five minutes that seemed like hours, doubly confirming where I was, within probably less than 5 miles or so, and STILL couldn't see it. Not a panic, more of a "things are developing out of my control, oh :mad:, what now?" moment. I fiddled with VORs, had been told about them, read the theory, yet hadn't become *competent* in their use - and certainly not in a flappy pressure moment. I'd spoken to Gasmton telling them I was inbound, 10 mins ago. One more call to Gamston, explained Unsure of Position, who advised me to speak to Waddington Radar. One call to WR, explained, asked them for a QDM for them, yet they easily gave me a vector to Gamston instead, unasked. It's a relief to hear "field is 350 degrees, 5 miles, do you have visual?". The rest was easy. Thank God for sensible cool controllers - proper thumbs up to the WR & Gamston chaps :ok:. They're on my Crimbo Card list.

Off topic maybe, but if I'd had no radio I'd have only got into a worse situation in failing light, with an a/c that would have ran out of fuel within another hour or so. I learnt my lesson, proving the theory. Aviate, Navigate then, Communicate. I wouldn't have gotten into the position, but it did get me out of it. AND I'll still learn VORs better AND get the best GPS I can AND not be over confident when things are going too well AND time my deviations so I can get back on track AND learn something from every flight, even the good ones!

Hope my instructors aren't reading this!!!!! :} Constructive comments welcome from the aviator community :)

[Final 3 Greens]

AND I'll still learn VORs better AND get the best GPS I can AND not be over confident when things are going too well AND time my deviations so I can get back on track AND learn something from every flight, even the good ones!

Good for you :ok:

You won't go far wrong with that philosphy.

[chrisN]

Hoots, if I understand correctly, you were not lost, just could not see the airfield from where you were and knew (roughly) where you were.

Given time and endurance enough, non-radio, try moving position, still keep awareness of where you are and where it should be, and look again. From closer, if you can. Also, the weather is a factor – if there are cloud shadows or poor light, a whole feature – town or airfield – can become virtually invisible until you are very close.

Without GPS or Navaids, only map and compass, it is usually easier to keep in sight of features you know, e.g. main roads, railways etc., than to go direct over unrecognisable features unless dead reckoning is the only choice for some reason.

With radio, D&D will always help.

Better to fail XC test (if that is what it was) and have to do it again than risk crashing.

IMHO. Chris N. [edited - spelling]

[strake]

I did a renewal once at an unfamiliar airfield (Mistake 1). I had an examiner who was fairly brusque (Mistake 2). I planned the flight in a fairly blase manner on the basis we were just going to toodle round the local for twenty minutes(Mistake 3). After 35 minutes, I became aware that having climbed, descended, turned and stalled, I didn't know where I was.(Mistake 4). Examiner asks me to show where we are on the map. I pointed at somewhere vaguely in the local area. (Mistake 5). Examiner suggests I am lost and what am I going to do about it. I light-heartedly suggest taking my GPS out of my pocket and turning it on. (Big Mistake 1). Examiner asks if I have any idea where we are. I say South West England meaning that this is what I will say when I perform the only sensible action I will probably do all day and contact D&D. (Big mistake 2) Examiner only hears the first bit, fumes "I have control" and takes us back in silence.
I learned about flying from that....

[Lister Noble]

Strake,don't leave us in suspense.
What happened next?:E

[strake]

Strake,don't leave us in suspense.
What happened next?

You will not be surprised to learn that I failed that particular exercise. :O

I took my renewal again and of course went on to become an aviator par excellence like almost every other member of this particular board...


Moral of the story?

Don't leave your GPS in your pocket......:E

[Fujiflyer]

Strake, was that an IMCR renewal or a PPL skill test?

[strake]

Fuji,

It was a GFT following the renewal of my lapsed UK license. I just tried to do the whole thing too quickly. At the time you had to re-sit most of the theory exams as well so I did those over two days and then went straight into the GFT which probably was not a good idea!
Anyway, the next day I did the test again (with another examiner) having planned properly and did well enough to be released once more onto an unsuspecting aviation public.

[Fujiflyer]

Strake, at least you got it done in the end. It was funny though, reading your account of your flight. I was surprised though, that the examiner was so unsympathetic when you thought you may be lost, I have always tended to assume (maybe wrongly) that the instructor / examiner would take some responsibilty for situational awareness when you're concentrating on manouvering, etc; as opposed to normal navigation. Its not as if we would go off flying, willingly, without knowing where we are.

Rich