Does anyone know what happen to this guy after being grounded?

[ricster]

YouTube - FIGHTER PILOT - REJECTION- TV Series 1981 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h1AViJiURCA&feature=related)

I don't know why but I feel really touched watching this clip. I think it's just a situation which I hope I not face while doing my pilot training.

Does anyone know if he over come his problem? Restreamed for navigator?

Ric

[wannabe87]

How so?

He didn't make the cut. End of! Some are good enough some are not, you just have to accept it and get on with it :bored:

[Max Contingency]

wannabe87 - Lets hope you receive a little more compassion when it happens to you then.

ricster - Good luck in flying training. According to the postscript in the book: Trevor Lewis (an RAF apprentice) did not rejoin the ranks but left to read electronics at Reading University, with the new ambition to become a research scientist.

[wannabe87]

That probably came across a little harsh- it wasn't meant to!

Yes of course anyone would be absolutely devastated if they didn't make it (myself included)- but at the end of the day the people in the know think your not good enough then you have to accept it, pick yourself up try again or try something new.

Ricster is also at university so would need to apply and get through AIB first....

[rmac]

YouTube - FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovo_-cQIBoM&feature=related)

And if this was the standard type of instruction he had for his landing training I feel a little sympathy....

Nothing like the power of negative reinforcement to get the best out of people :ouch:

[phil9560]

Does anyone know what happened to John Mcrea ? I remember hearing he was actually chopped but the show pretended he wasn't to give the impression of a happy ending.

[Double Zero]

I am not a failed pilot or anything else forces-wise, but I did apply for an initial interview for RAF Pilot, plan B ( which from the start looked distinctly like my destiny, as I was already experienced with military PDR & recce' cameras in my job with BAe ).

All the questions I was asked seemed frankly class-related - AND I DON'T (DON@T) NORMALLY HAVE A BEEF WITH THIS SORT OF THING - rather than being asked anything about my engineering or aeronautical knowledge ( I had a small /medium amount of enginnering trainining, & a short course in aeronautics ) - but that was swept aside in a nano-second, the main question was " what did your father do ? " - the only thing which perked
the interviewer up was when he found I'm into sailing, which apparently is an 'officer class' activity.

I bailed out there & then ( I would never have had the confidence, but probably would have the skills to be blunt ) - since then in sailing I've seen several Joint Services & particular forces yachts performing spectacular croppers - sailing requires more than confidence/ arrogance too!

[MAINJAFAD]

As for John Mcree, No he wasn't Chopped. Know this to be fact, as my brother met him at Lossie a few years later while he was working on Buccs. As for what happened to him later...

Google is your Friend.

BBC FIGHTER PILOT, JOHN MCREA - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51068)

[noprobs]

And if you look in the New Year's Honours List, you'll see J Mcrea's name in the CAS's commendations for his work as an elementary standards QFI.:ok:

[Al R]

Thinking back to TACP days, I recall him being involved with pre-Granby TIALD trials at Boscombe.

MO did his own self build I think, near Lyneham possibly.

[phil9560]

Seems like the lads done well ! Glad it was an urban/air cadet myth.:D

And apologies for the tangent-does anyone know where Craig Docker is ? The urban/cadet thing said he went VC10 nav then Tornado's?

[sisemen]

I know that one of the participants, Brian Bellars, eventually became admin sec and we met when he became my junior accts officer at Honington. By that time he had acquired a totally loopy dog.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "And if this was the standard type of instruction he had for his landing training I feel a little sympathy...."

A good example of instruction from the bad old days. This clip was used during my CFS course (1991) of how not to instruct!

[RETDPI]

It was also used on the GIT course around the same time for the same purpose. It raised a lot of a questions IIRC.

[Tiger_mate]

It was the reason why the Aircrew Instructors Course (AIC) was instigated. Having watched the video, it is actually not as bad as its reputation would have you believe.

[BEagle]

I raised this last night with someone who was there at the time. The so-called 'landing instruction' was a total fabrication 'sexed up' for the programme.

[Blue Carpet]

Having watched it for the first time, it is very bad. It would make it worse though if the instructor was shouting.

[wiggy]

Calm down!.Calm down!

Seconded Beags, it was indeed clever editing.

I went through CFS at the same time as John McCrea many Moons ago (I know, those that can't do, etc :ooh: ) and the stories he told about the creative editing involved were a real eyeopener....the manipulation involved in both the "landing instruction" and the infamous " no time off/ no leave whingeathon" piece were very interesting............

IMHO someone in the production team had an agenda and manipulated situations and footage to support it.

[AR1]

Reality TV Eh? Has it ever been real?

Good enough series though, and I even bought the book, which I loaned to my Nephew who was planning to apply following university. - He didn't of course... Perhaps the thought of no time off was too much for him.

Just watched the clip, and it got me thinking of my driving course at St Athan. Suffering a similar standard of abuse, masquerading as instruction, I ignored the directions and parked up, removed the keys and threw them at the instructor, and delivered a damning diatribe on his 'welshness' and parantage.
Wonder if anyone ever terminated their flying career in a similar way. - I bit more difficult, I acknowledge.

[newt]

Before anyone else goes mad about the standard of instruction shown in this series let me point out one or two facts.

There was no editorial control throughout the series. Many hours were spent giving the film crews the very best access to the briefing and debriefing of these students. They only used about 5% of that material and prefered to get their "REAL" information about life in the RAF from the crewroom, the Mess bar or the local pub! Indeed, they bought plenty of barrels to create the right atmosphere.

The course in question, when it arrived at Brawdy, was hounded by the film and production crew. So much so that one has to wonder how much this impacted on their performance. The standard of instruction was certainly not a factor in any of them failing the course, however, they were affected by the filming and the later publication of their failings.

When the series was put on air, most instructors on the Staff at Brawdy were astonished by how badly the RAF was portrayed. Some felt the producer had a hidden agenda and it was rumoured he had been chopped from pilot selection at some time! That aside, considering the amount of time and effort put into giving them best access to the operational areas, the final result was very dissapointing.

[Wrathmonk]

Newt

Thought for a minute you had meant to post this on the Warzone thread!;)

There was no editorial control throughout the series

They only used about 5% of that material and prefered to get their "REAL" information about life in the RAF from the crewroom, the Mess bar or the local pub! Indeed, they bought plenty of barrels to create the right atmosphere.

hounded by the film and production crew. So much so that one has to wonder how much this impacted on their performance

astonished by how badly the RAF was portrayed

Some felt the producer had a hidden agenda

considering the amount of time and effort put into giving them best access to the operational areas, the final result was very dissapointing

Seems like somethings never change and that we don't seem to learn our lesson:E

[Al R]

Media manipulation is a double edged sword. If anyone here can say hand on heart that they haven't scoffed about a military recruiting video, then I'd be surprised. It was years before I went adventure training anywhere hot.

[Dan Winterland]

I seem to remember that the producer was a chap called Duff Hart-Davies and he was trained to solo standard with the course on the JP.

[mr fish]

that widdley synth "music" is enough to induce toothache:yuk:

[AR1]

Its Vangelis.. without the expense of getting Vangelis to write & perform it.

[Groundaphobic]

You invite these people to film you at your peril. Fighter Pilot, Submarine, HMS Brilliant, The Paras....

The film crew arrive, and spend six months sticking cameras in your ear, and getting in everyone elses way, while takeing literaly hours and hours of footage in order to make 6 episodes.

You may be able to control what they film, but how do you control how it's edited?

[NickGooseBrady]

I had the "joy" of hosting/babysitting a fly on the wall documentary crew during Telic 03. They had the cheek to request that a rather major asset alter its "plans" as it would make better TV. They wouldn't take no for answer and after several hissy fits had their cameras confiscated for a few days (for important operational reasons you understand). Looking after the media really is like hearding ferile kittens and sometimes they have to be told to shut the fu*k up and get out of everyones way!

[Hamish 123]

I still have the book of the series. Had a look at it last night again, and interestingly enough, one of the Linton QFI's dealing with those featured in the programme back in 1980 was a certain Flt Lt Martin Withers.

Bet he thought that he'd had his 15 minutes of fame then . . .

[soddim]

It appears that the media were treated with the right approach in the Falklands war - in an example from the excellent book 'Don't Cry for me Sgt Major' the journo says to the soldier guarding Stanley Pier

"Apart from telling me to f*** off, when is Maggie coming to visit?"

The terse reply was

"Day after tomorrow, now f*** off!"

Treat them with the right respect!

[airborne_artist]

I seem to remember that the producer was a chap called Duff Hart-Davies

More likely to have been his younger brother Adam Hart-Davis, who has done quite a bit of TV producing. Duff is a writer through and through, I believe.

[Field44]

If anyone is interested in watching the whole thing it on video in the Library at Shriv (Staff College).

[Archimedes]

The producer of the series was a chap called Colin Strong; IIRC, Duff Hart-Davis was brought in to assist with the book accompanying the series.

[airborne_artist]

That makes a lot more sense Archimedes.

[Shack37]

Does anyone know what happen to this guy after being grounded?



:confused:

[farefield]

The producer of the series was called Colin Strong,correct,Archimedes.

Being on the course(s) about 6 weeks ahead of the “film stars” Colin would often pitch up to see what we were up to so that he could plan what to film. This was right through from Henlow to Valley,in my case.

I remember a course weekend away once and spending a very sociable time with him and he didn't seem to have an axe to grind,I think he genuinely wanted to portray what it was like to train to be a front line military pilot. He actually got clearance to do the first part of the Jet Provost course and eventually went solo.

Sorry,though,don't know what happened to Trevor!

[Crashed&Burned]

Just picked up on this thread.

I seem to recall that the instructional style shown in 'YouTube - FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981' was pretty much par for the course in the 70s.

I was always puzzled why the selection process for aircrew was seemingly so thorough yet most people failed when it came to actual service flying.

C&B

[pontifex]

I was at Linton at the time and was much involved with Colin Strong. I found him to be an OK guy with a burning desire to get things right. I had few arguments with what he produced about that stage of training. To be honest I enjoyed working with him.

[KiwiBound]

I may be a little late in replying to this post, I joined the RAF in 1980, not as aircrew but as ATC and on watching the Video, I had no problem with the instrutor, he wasn't derogatory to the student, he was just getting the learning points across? I think it must be my generation who grew up in this environment and did'nt bat an eye lid at the comments and critisicisms, I believe the younger generation just expect failure or criticism is just not accepatable in their minds?
Honest replys please?

Kiwibound

[Vox Populi]

You RAF chaps don't half moan about anyone who shows any interest or who dares to make a TV programme about your jobs!

I watched this as a kid and thought the RAF was brilliant as a result. I remember being inspired by the whole thing.

[Hamish 123]

One of the other six featured in the series has had a pretty distinguished career to say the least . . .


RAF - News by Date (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.cfm?storyid=B4C7EF4F-1143-EC82-2EA18F24FBD50973)

[Double Zero]

I was a photographer for BAe ( looking back, it seems much like " I flew for the Fugher " ) !

When photographing instruments / displays which had a fault, to illustrate the snag people were moaning about, I always insisted that the control settings were realistic to the given situation.

When faced with the media on the odd day, it was very depressing and much like being thrown into a tankfull of Piranhas !

'Truth' was not even on their agengda.

[Max Contingency]

I think the standard of instruction shown in the short clip was pretty awful. However, I am sure that the edited version bears little resemblance to the unedited original. It is also worth remembering that RAF flying training in the early 80s also contained a heavy amount of selection as well as training. Students deliberately had pressure applied to them at all stages of training as the aircraft that were going on to eventually fly could quickly kill them if they were not able to cope with pressure and to think well ahead of the aircraft (turbines that took 5 seconds to spool up across the power range, aircraft that could not be recovered from certain aerodynamic configurations etc)
I remember it as a very stressful time in which we all lived with the thought that our dream could be taken away from us within 48 hours if we failed to perform (fail a flight that morning, re fly it and fail in the afternoon, chop ride next day).

Happy days......I think.

[mlc]

"Initially serving as a pilot in the 1980s, Robbie re-trained as a Navigator on Tornado in 1983."

How often does that happen..and how many 'wings' does he wear??

[Griz]

Probably means he was chopped as a pilot and after nav training, pass the OCU in 1983.

[NickGooseBrady]

I remember it as a very stressful time in which we all lived with the thought that our dream could be taken away from us within 48 hours if we failed to perform (fail a flight that morning, re fly it and fail in the afternoon, chop ride next day).


Hasn't changed mate! A good friend of mine was 1 flight away from being a front line Junglie pilot (after 3 years training and a shed load of money spent on his training by the tax payer) and within 2 days was chopped, no rethread nothing. He hadn't even picked up an Air Warning previously. People may bang on about drawing the line somewhere etc etc but sometimes I think the system is just bloody silly and lets everyone down. :ugh:

[effortless]

The instructor seemed pretty standard issue to me. Every one talked down to one back then, teachers rozzers, bloomin' traffic wardens. Good lord Even the missus talked down to one then.

All I could think when I was being "instructed" was "Good grief, you really sound like my father!" Now he was a t*sser!

[Chromium]

I used to live next to John McRea's mum and he was one of the reasons I joined up.

[mitsubishi]

"Hasn't changed mate! A good friend of mine was 1 flight away from being a front line Junglie pilot (after 3 years training and a shed load of money spent on his training by the tax payer) and within 2 days was chopped, no rethread nothing. He hadn't even picked up an Air Warning previously. People may bang on about drawing the line somewhere etc etc but sometimes I think the system is just bloody silly and lets everyone down."

I find that very, very hard to believe (to put it mildly!) Your good friend would not have got chopped without a full Air Warning process taking place - the investment in personnel is too great to just chop people in the manner you allude to.

[airborne_artist]

I too know of a soon-to-be Junglie driver who was chopped on his last trip but one. He was well-thought of, though, and is now operational on SAR, but the route he has taken is very unusual. Ab-initio SAR drivers are almost un-heard of in the RN.

[NickGooseBrady]

misty bush,

He hadn't even picked up an Air Warning previously

I think you may have misunderstood. He had not received an Air Warning PREVIOUSLY, i.e at no stage prior to the 2 days in which he went from 0-3 to chopped, i.e nearly 3 years of training with zero air warnings and then 3 in 48 hours. Is that clearer?

[noprobs]

When questioning the attitude of RAF QFIs past and present and the fear of the chop among students, let's not forget what we are training for. We operate in an environment where the price of error may be death, not necessarily just your own, and not even just those involved in the crash, but also those relying on your success to save them. I have in the past given the benefit of the doubt to a young pilot, then later had to offer comfort to his grieving parents after the accident. Subsequently, I have had no compunction in explaining to a student that I may be saving his life while denying his dream.

Regarding the conduct of TV production teams, I think back to my involvement in one long forgotten series. They had been offered a high level of support, so went on to abuse it fully. One episode involved a pilot stealing a Harrier after a training sortie at an east coast range. First, they wanted film of Sneb rockets hitting the target, with the camera looking up from the target. The first pilot (now also dead) put 2 full pods just short, giving spectacular results. But they decided that they wanted the rockets to hit the centre, sacrificing the camera, images from which would be captured remotely. So I took a second jet to Holbeach, and destroyed their kit with another 2 full, and expensive, pods. To complete the sequence, they needed better shots of the aircraft in the range pattern, but by the time we had the weather, they had moved on to Brawdy for another episode. So off I went to Wales to do both bits. The first brief was that they had been given a Sea King, so from this airborne platform, they wanted to film me passing by, approaching from the front quarter and approaching from the rear quarter. Neither the helicopter nor the ground would be seen. I queried what they would see different in the two approaching shots; they agreed that they would be the same, so one would do. I queried why it would look different from the Sea King rather than on the ground; it wouldn't, so we cancelled that bit. This reduced the sequence to me flying once past and once over a camera on the airfield.

Then we moved on to the next episode. This involved gun runners in an Islander. I was to intercept the Islander and use visual intercept signals to get it to land. So I had to fly alongside, waggle my wings in an obvious manner, then turn away to get them to follow. Aware that my wings would not produce much lift below 150 kts or so, I asked at what speed they intended to fly. 90 kts was the answer. How fast could they fly? 120 kts. So it turned into a fairly short sequence, with me formating partially jet-borne, a configuration in which "wing-waggling" tends to lead to a considerable loss of lift, while the reversal gets perilously close to a risky corner of the Harrier flight envelope (covered at length in another thread).

At the end of all that, I went home and made sure I was not around for any further request for help.

In my experience, a common factor of many aircraft accidents has been the camera filming the event. :cool:

[phil9560]

'Regarding the conduct of TV production teams, I think back to my involvement in one long forgotten series'

That would be 'Squadron' ? What a load of bilge that was.Good flying sequences though ...

[b15oxo]

I was recently invited by Gareth Stringer (Editor Global Avaition Resource) to write a book about my life, including my RAF Career.

I am going to tell the truth; there has been so much b******it spoken about the Series it's time to reveal the truth,OK?

A few FACTS first.
The BBC filmed a week at Biggin Hill and nobody was selected! So they came back and did it again.

The week they filmed, myself- Martin Oxborrow,and Robbie Low,Rhod Smart, Trevor Lewis, and Alastair Stewart., were there .John McCrea was not! John walked into a room at Octu Henlow set up to record someone else, they heard his story and thought Milkman Flies Jets would be good, so there it was !. I was the only one from the original week to gain their Wings.
Along the way, Trevor Lewis was chopped at Linton, as was Rhod Smart who re-mustered to become a Nav on 74 Sqn ( I believe). Alastair Stewart re-mustered to Nav didn'# like it and keft RAF. I didn't make it to Valley, but wentto Mets at Finningley, earned my WIngs, C130 Co Pilot/Captain 3000hrs Total. Med Discharged 97. Robbie Lowwas chopped at Valley, re-mustered Nav - Tornadoes ended up as Wg Cdr, now Flt Lt Reservist. John McCrea went to Buccaneers, CFS, QFi at Cranwell, Now at Barkston Heath as Reservist as is his Son!!!!
If you want to know more it'll be in the book ok.
The BBC book of the Series was a Best Selelr for 6 weeks, The series was adored byJoe Public (5 to 6 million an episode), hated by the Senior RAF chaps.
Colin Strong the Director failed Officer Training in Natrional Service and had an axe to grind and a chip on his shoulder.(Witness the Air Officer getting dressed and in the background are the Gentlemens' Urinals...):) Dont believe evrything you see on TV!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[WPW]

Could you be thinking of the 1973? film. Called something like 'Training the Phantom Pilot' it followed a chap from OASC to OCU. The 'pilot' had failed OCU / Advanced flying I think, it's along time ago! I can be seen on the film as a young Jnr Tech walking into Aero Med (hanger 2) at Church Fenton to do an EEG.The film was released as the B movie to Serpico, wached it at the ABC in Lincoln.

[Lima Juliet]

I've been in several documentaries on TV over the years, including "Top Guns", "Speed", "Fighter Squadron" and "Fighting the War". Only the book for "Top Guns" (written by an ex-SF chap in Op CORPORATE) and "Fighter Squadron" bore any resemblance to what actually happened!

http://www.hughmcmanners.com/images/topguns.jpg
Top Guns - book by Hugh McManners

http://primetimedvds.co.uk/images/products/aviation/air-shows--modern-jets/fighter_sqns.png
Fighter Squadron - Primtime Video

So it is of little surprise that "Fighter Pilot" did not reflect reality. In fact, my time in J3/J5 at PJHQ allowed me to see what a bunch of lies the media feeds us each and every day - since 2003 I haven't bothered buying a newspaper unless I want to look at the 'for sale' section or if it contains my fish and chips!

LJ

[Tester07]

I was recently invited by Gareth Stringer (Editor Global Avaition Resource) to write a book about my life, including my RAF Career.

I look forward to your book, Martin. I hope you don't remember too much about me! :)

[Tinribs]

My experience of flying traing standards over 20 years 64/84 seems as varied as the above writers. My next 20 years as a civi pilot were much the same.

Throughout this time a single unchanged value. The media exist to write stories nothing more. They write stories that make headlines and appeal to the already formed ideas of their readers. Never expect fair treatment or the truth

I was asked to appear on that Street Doctor thingy at an airport and agreed because I have a lump of metal in my shoulder and wondered if would have to come out one day..

The organiser started by telling me to wear my hat while drinking coffee in an airport cafe, said no. The doctor arrives and they tell me not to stand up. Said I would always do that for a lady, "oh well we won't be able to use it then" end of broadcast

[AR1]

I was on 'To buy or not to buy' and I can say it was all real..:)

[rolling20]

b15oxo. Thanks for the snippets on the series, cant wait for the book.
I for one never tire of watching my DVD of the series. I was in a Bulldog around the same time as it was being shown. The memories of being shouted at around the circuit are still with me.....

[retrosgone]

As a member of a course slightly behind the "Fighter Pilot" studes (on a different FTS Squadron), we spent a bit of time with the director - Colin Strong - while he underwent some pilot training on his own account.

In order to give him a feel for what the studes were going through, he was put through as far as going solo on a JP3. I still remember the day at Elvington when he solo'ed and his delight at the achievement.

He certainly never came across as one with an axe to grind, though he clearly was not in the game of producing a recruitment film as their Airships might have wished.

As has been stated earlier, the public loved the series and the production team did a professional job of producing an entertainment programme which did the Sevice more good than harm. I flew with plenty of good instuctors - they had to be to get me through! There were some who could have been cuddlier, but the peacetime front line in the early 80s was a good deal more lethal than in later years, and there was not much room for sentiment when it came to screening out those who were unlikely to progress.

[Jackw106]

Not seen this clip before I assume they all still fly

Jet Set RAF Tornado GR4 OCU Course - 15 R) Sqn - YouTube