Hiller UH12c buying advice?

[KNIEVEL77]

I have just noticed that a helicopter (a Hiller UH12c) I saw for sale last year that got me really serious about getting my PPL(H) has re-appeared and is still for sale.

Quite co-incidently a colleague of mine has also just seen it and is very interested in purchasing it.

His thoughts were to purchase it, keep it at Newcastle Airport, use it for his PPL(H), then fly for pleasure afterwards.

I was just wondering what the pit falls and costs might be buying and running an 'older' aircraft, housing it at Newcastle Airport and using it to train in?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Whirlygig]

Where are the nearest engineering facilities and where's the nearest rated instructor and examiner!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Tarman]

If it's on the US register then you may have problems training on it in the UK.

[VeeAny]

Tarman

What problems do you foresee training on it in the UK ?

I presume you mean if you want to be FAA trained to fly it, then instructor availability might be a problem, but its not impossible.

GS

[Bravo73]

Here's another angle, Knievel:

What's the price of the single most expensive component on the Hiller? If this breaks, can you afford to replace it?

If the answer's 'no', then you're on to a 'no-brainer'.

[HillerBee]

I used to fly them and teach on them. I would seriously stay away, the 12 a/b/c are very expensive to maintain and I promise you they break a lot. If you want a lot of maintenance and very little flying buy one of those. I've never seen one flying more than 15 hours without some problem.

[malc4d]

Flat out at 60 - 65 mph and shaking you to bits..............but fun anyway. Uses more oil than fuel.....:)

[KNIEVEL77]

In answer to some of your questions:

The helicopter in question is already in the UK.

Operating costs quoted are £85.00 per hour based on 100 pa flying.

I'm told that it has only 2 time replacement parts: the tail rotor assembly and the paddle cuffs.

I believe the maximum speed is 84 MPH and the range 150 miles.

I notice a few Helicopter Training schools offering 'own aircraft training' for around £100 per hour!

The helicopter is being offered at £36,000.

Once again, this is information i'm collating for a colleague, myself, i'm sticking to the trusty R22 for my training.

[EN48]

What's the price of the single most expensive component on the Hiller?


The bad news: This part costs $100,000.

The good news: There are none to be had even if you have the $100,000!:O

[N707ZS]

Hields at Sherburn has one they might train you on it, as there are so few of them who's are you going to buy?
If you want something old why not go for a bell 47.

[KNIEVEL77]

N707ZS,

As stated, it's not me buying, it's a colleague of mine and the reason he is interested in this particular Hiller is because of it's unusual history having been used in a James Bond film.

K77.

[Whirlygig]

The aircraft may be in the UK already but is it on the G register? As far as I know, there is only one Hiller on the UK reg and that's the one at Hields.

Cheers

Whirls

[KNIEVEL77]

Whirls,

It looks like it is still registered in America.......BUT i've seen loads of pictures of it flying over the southern England countryside?

[HillerBee]

The BOND is on the N-Reg, a Hiller 12C is (almost) impossible to get on the G-Reg. The particular machine looks very nice and is in good nick.

As to the life limited parts:

The blades have no life, but are made of wood and have to be overhauled pretty frequent. (if you get 300 hours out of them you're doing very good)

The mainrotor gearbox has to be overhauled every 300 hours, nobody will tell you that, but it's in the factory maintenance manual.

In general everything is on condition, but that doesn't mean you don't have to replace it ever. In fact there are loads of parts that have a very bad life. You are talking of 50's design.

Tailrotor blades have a life of 2500 hours, these are extremely hard to find and expensive if you can find them. There are illegal 'new' blades on the market, but you definitely wouldn't want these.

You have to look at these machines as old timers just as with cars, you only take them out a few times a year on a nice and sunny day. For the rest you're pampering it. The you can have a lot of fun for say 25-50 hours a year. But if you want regular low cost flying and you're not an engineer yourself don't buy them.

[KNIEVEL77]

Hillerbee,

thanks for the advice, I shall pass your comments onto my colleague.

K77.

[Whirlygig]

Just because it's on the N-reg, doesn't mean it can't be flown in the UK. However, the pilot probably has an FAA licence.

Cheers

Whirls

[RVDT]

Whirls,

Not so - anyone can fly an "N" reg aircraft in the country that it is presently in if they have the equivalent licence privileges to do so in that country . Look it up in the FAR's.

63 (a) (1) However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used.

Plus your photo ID of course. ;)

[KNIEVEL77]

Hmmmm it all seems like its going to be more trouble than it's worth.

To be honest it's probably best if he just buys an R22.........or dry hires the local training school's machine, after all he shortly won't be badly off as it was his uncles Bugatti that was left to him that hit the news recently and shortly to be auctioned at Bonhams.

[500e]

Way to go .
Nice NEW 500 then, :ok:& change:E

[Whirlygig]

RVDT, yes, I know. But I did that say the pilot of the aircraft which is for sale "probably" has an FAA licence.

Cheers

Whirls

[KNIEVEL77]

A new 500.......think he'd let me borrow it??? :)

[HillerBee]

No, the pilot has a JAA PPL(H) infact.

[spinwing]

Mmmm....

Truth is .... the best thing you can do with a Hiller 12 series machine is ......

PUT IT IN A MUSEUM!


:E

[yukonbrown]

This is simple... there is no Hiller Support. We had a fleet of them and sold them due to no part support.


Watch out for the Drag Brace Pin, they crack and your tailboom will be cut by the M/R Blade.

[KNIEVEL77]

Thanks chaps......and chapesses,

I think I get the hint!

Looks like its an R22 for him as originally planned!

[FLY 7]

Surely, if he's inherited the 'barn find' Bugatti 57C, and it achieves the £5m estimate being bandied in the media, there are better options than an R22?

[KNIEVEL77]

Fly 7,

I'm sure he wouldn't want to spend the £5m all at once! :)

He was even thinking about going to Florida to do his training as it's cheaper..........don't ask!!!!! :ugh:

Hope he 'looks' after his mates! :ok:

[Blade Wake]

Stay away from a,b and c Hiller models - very problematic machines. The company isn't much fun to deal with either!

[Arnie Madsen]

I wouldn't be too quick to write off the Hiller 12. They are to be built brand new in China in 2009.

Hiller (China) Aircraft Manufacturing Company was founded in 2007 with a total investment of US $80 million, 60% of which was financed by the Chinese. The joint venture will introduce the UH-12 series helicopter manufacturing project from the US-based Hiller.

The project is designed to manufacture 200 helicopters yearly with an annual output value of 2.6 billion yuan, and realized profits and taxes of 1 billion yuan.

China's first civilian helicopters to roll off production line next year - People's Daily Online (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/6564090.html)

Some of the old timers swear by the Hiller 12. We all know the low cost of Chinese production so it will be interesting to see the prices.

If China mass produces them and considering they do not have our manufacturers liability costs , it could be a real bargain . I'm sure there would be a market if the price is right.

Arnie

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm ....

Refer back to post #23


:E

[HillerBee]

They're going to build the E-Model in China.

[rotorfossil]

I recall the 12b's & 12c's we had as the most vibratory, slow and unpleasant handling of all the light helicopters I've flown, and also required enormous amounts of unscheduled servicing. It was a great day when we turned them in for 47's.

[ericferret]

Early Hillers were built with mag alloy keel beams in the fuse and tailboom.

Can turn to Swiss cheese and requires a jig rebuild to replace.

[UH12E]

the UH12E is a very reliable machine, and there are more PMA parts coming available on the market. There are several operators of the type that are committed to see the future stay alive for old machines, as there is currently no viable replacement available for the type of work in which they are typically employed. As for the Hiller China based efforts, time will tell if they can pull off building a craft that will pass muster with the FAA. There are some issues with the Hiller, but when compared to other craft, for utility work, none can come close except maybe the Bell 47.
UH12E

[parabellum]

I don't think your friend's 5 million will cover the cost of putting a 'new' type of 12E on the British register, it won't automatically get a G reg.

Did my first 65 hours of rotary wing on the b and c at Middle Wallop, the best day was the last!

[jeepys]

Vanguard helicopters at Henstridge maintain Hiller's although I think they are 12c orientated.
The 12c is a lovely machine but finding a maintenance facility could be hard. These guy's are in Somerset/Dorset and could be worth a shout for questions.
I think they also do Robinson stuff as well.
Thanks,

J

[Phil Space]

In the same group as Skeeters and Brantlys to me. Museum pieces:ok:

If you want an old classic helicopter buy a 47.

[007helicopter]

Ok, confession time !!!

www.007helicopter.com (http://www.007helicopter.com) is mine for the last few years

To answer a few points made above:

1) Vanguard Helicopters do not actually do any maintenance, In fact I do not believe they are active as a company, ask Hillerbee.

2) I use to fly N780ND on a JAA with a type rating but now have a clean
FAA license as it was hassle to keep getting an annual revalidation.

3) Touch wood (exscuse the pun) It has been very relaible and inexpensive to maintain, The high costs referred to and lack of parts relate to the E model I think, I have had no problem getting parts from Fort Wolters in the US and there are many other sources.

4) I Agree it is not fast but that is not really the point, My Cirrus SR22 satisfies my need for speed and getting places quickly, the view from the Hiller is fantastic.

5) For a Hiller mine is relatively smooth, Or should I say less of a bone shaker than some I have flown.

6) I do not recall offering it for the price as above but am now keeping for ther time being as I have my FAA license.

7) Personal opinion I think it would make a great primary trainer, it has an excellent safety record. In the UK I guess as it is on the N reg you would need an FAA Instructor like Tim Price and you need permission from the Department of Transport which is a formality as long as you are the owner.

8) Needs to be hangared


In summary not a serious form of transport but a lot of pleasure for the sake of flying or going on local's

Duncan

[Phil Space]

Sounds like a nice old classic with an important history Duncan. I guess a serious buyer would be aware of the cost of keeping it flying. How does it compare to a B47?

[007helicopter]

Phil I recently did a week at Dutch Country Helicopters in Lancaster PA who operate some B47's and from what they told me it sounds like parts are really becoming scarse and very expensive to now operate.

This is my 2nd UH12C ( A glutton for punsihment) and I have had no real issues. I have only done about 100 hours in N780ND and so far only routine maintenance.

[jeepys]

Well if Vanguard Helicopters do not maintain them somebody was doing a lovely job of rebuilding a 12c in U.S. Army colours in their hangar last week!
If the rest continues to be built to the standard I saw then it surely will rank amongst the best out there.

Anyway, I could be wrong but the engineers were wearing Vanguard clothing.

In any respect the 12c is a fine machine, or at least that is my memory of it and long may they last.

[007helicopter]

Well if Vanguard Helicopters do not maintain them somebody was doing a lovely job of rebuilding a 12c in U.S. Army colours in their hangar last week!
If the rest continues to be built to the standard I saw then it surely will rank amongst the best out there.


Yep, looks like I am a bit of date, certainly a while ago Bob the owner was as I understood it going to sell all His Hiller parts and pack in so must be a change of plan, good luck to them and heres there link Vanguard Helicopters (http://www.vanguardhelicopters.co.uk/) which is a completely revamped website:D

I will also be nosey and pop into see that Hiller being rebuilt

[John Eacott]

Personal opinion I think it would make a great primary trainer

It was the 12E, not 12C, but all of us pre 1970's's had our primary helicopter training on the H12E as RN HSP's. Then we had to climb up the side of a Whirlwind :eek:

A bunch of us took 4 x 12E's all the way from Culdrose to Nuremberg on a summer Navex; first day was just getting to Manston ;)

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/3182-2/Hiller+12E+142+_amp_+Chris.jpg

[airbourne]

So your Hiller was in From Russia with Love and Rob Heilds Hiller was in Goldfinger.

Would that be correct. Everyman has his price, ring Rob and see if he will sell his Hiller.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...


..... first day was just getting to Manston

Ha .... not the fastest of machines then ... eh John?

When doing my endorsement in a 12E I was most amused at actually going backward reference the ground whilst in Autorotation! .... got sorted closer to the ground .... bloody wind!

:}

[timprice]

Hi my name is Tim Price & i fly & instruct on Hillers in the UK on the FAA licence, its difficult to get it on the JAR licence and maintain it.
any questions feel free to e-mail me

Regards

Tim:ok:

tim.price at talk21.com

[airbourne1]

Yes, your'e right Hields have the only G-Registered Hiller flying in the UK (E4 Model).

There has been many 12 A,B,C model on the UK registration over the years, followed by many E Model's. looked after correctly they can be reliable and nice to fly, unfortunatley there are a lot of C model's in the UK at the moment that are neither.

We operated many 12E's over the years along with a Soloy e4 and had no complaints.

One major bit of advice would be to get a thorough survey carried out by someone who knows the hiller! If you want more info PM me or ask hields I am sure they will point you in the right direction. We currently have 2 N reg machine's sitting in the hangar that need a lot of sorting out and money spending on them due to the work not being done correctly in the first place.

[DennisK]

Just to add a note on Tim Price's advice. (Hi Tim) and to confirm that Vanguard Helicopters under the Bob West proprietorship is very much up and running. Have just completed their first PPL(H) course for them last Friday. And for the 'time' doubters ... ab initio to PPL(H) Skills Test pass ... 1n 18 flying days and 47 hours. They also operate a newish R44 and an Enstrom non-turbo 280 Shark.

Keith and Clive are the Vanguard engineers and are currently restoring a Hiller 12 to as high a standard as anyone would wish.

A new company with ambitious plans (new hangar etc-licenced helipad) and I wish them every success.

Dennis K. (From semi-retirement land!)

[007helicopter]

Dennis good to here about Vanguard - any idea when there Hiller will be flying and what are the plans for it?

[jeepys]

The one that they are restoring/rebuilding is for a customer by all accounts and what a beauty it looks like it will be. It does not look like an easy job seeing as it arrived as a pile of bits but when I last happened to walk past it was looking like new.

They do have another white one in their hangar but I am not sure who's this is. It does like it's in flying condition.

Long live the Hiller. It's an old favourite to many I am sure.

Thanks.

[tonguestud]

Hi Guys,
The Hiller in question belongs to a friend of mine and all being well when finished i shall be learning to fly it!!
I'm already a fixed wing instructor but got the 'bug' when i was a navigator in the British Helicopter Champs last year.
Have met the guys from Vanguard when they came to the airfield to pick all the 'bits' up for restoration and seem very knowledgable and great guys.
The Hiller was the first ever helicopter used by the L.A.P.D. back in 1956 and will be honoured to keep her flying.

Damian

[007helicopter]

Damian

I may be wrong but I do not think you can train on an N reg unless you are the owner with dft permission Aviation Permits - flying training using foreign registered aircraft in the UK (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/aviation/aviationpermits/furtherinfo/foreignregaircrafttraining/)

Having been through tis process, I guess you could buy a share?

[tonguestud]

Thanks for heads up.Am looking through all the possibilities and legalities at the moment. If i buy a share then i can get a uk ppl(h) but faa ppl(h) has a more relaxed attitude but not without complications!!!!
So many people pushing pens stopping aviators enjoying their sport i think..

Damian

[007helicopter]

Tongue, If you are going to fly the Hiller get an FAA License, I have just got my clean FAA license as it was very difficult to keep a type rating current for the Hiller on my JAA License

[tonguestud]

Thanks for that, will look at legalities of learning on said helicopter and hopefully join everyone in the skies in the new year.

[jeepys]

Hi all and happy new year to you.

I happened to see the Hiller mentioned earlier in this thread (that Vanguard Helicopters were restoring) running and pull into the hover at Henstridge. Looked good from where I was over the side.

To save going back through the thread to see what I am on about this one is a 12c that has been restored in it's original U.S. Army colours from ground up and looks every bit the part. I wish I could have a go.

It's so nice to see another classic in the skies again no doubt thanks to the Vanguard engineers and probably a small fortune as well.

Long may she fly.

[rotorfossil]

To keep Hiller 12b's & C's flying as a classic helicopter, just doing a few hours a year - fine, but the cost per hour would be ridiculous. As a regular flying tool, I really couldn't recommend it.
We had them on a commercial school in the late 70's and they were a right pain with lots of unscheduled maintenance to keep them in the air. It was difficult to keep them in good track and balance for any length of time, hence they always vibrated. They were bog slow (60 kt tops in practice). The cyclic feels weird because you are operating indirectly through the paddles. You can't balance the collective over the whole range, so it either throws on or off and the collective/throttle correlation is very poor by R22 standards. Also you can't disconnect the throttle from the collective for EOL practices, so you have to remember to roll off the throttle as you raise the lever for the landing.
We were very glad when we turned them in for Bell 47's and they weren't perfect.
I've noticed over the years that Hiller's come up for sale, disappear and surprise, surprise appear on the market again. Perhaps the above is some clue why.

[valve guide]

Hi guys and gals, was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what the above aircraft would be like to own from a private individuals viewpoint. To be specific I am meaning servicing, cost of running and generally what are they like as a heli. I;'m sure you know what I mean.

Thanks!

[Whirlygig]

To summarize the previous three pages - "don't". :}

Cheers

Whirls

[TipCap]

As John Eacott said, all of us ex Fleet Air Arm Pilots pre-1970 flew the Hiller 12E with 705 RNAS (in my day at Culdrose). I flew the 12B/12C/12E and 12E4 with Bristows late 68/69. Funnily enough it is still on my licence - including the Soloy, which I never flew - even though I am now retired. Did a solo ferry flight with a 12E from Redhill to Tan Tan in Morocco in 1968. Though it didn't used to go too fast, I enjoyed flying it.

John

[jeepys]

Never flown a Hiller myself but I know Vanguard Helicopters at Henstridge have a bit to do with them. They have just rebuilt a Hiller in Army colours. Maybe they are worth a call if you want some more info on them.

Yes they maybe slow and old but it's like a classic car. I know some slow and old pilots but they are not dead and I am glad to see the Hiller is not either.

[valve guide]

Sorry posted this as a new thread without doing a search and then it was moved here. Sorry whirls....must try harder!!

[hillerman]

Yes, Vanguard are doing a restoration of N5315V, first LAPD Helicopter. This machine was taken out of service in August 2005 and has a complete mechanical restoration and will be zero-timed. I anticipate that it will be complete in early Feb 2010 and I am the owner and it will be based once again at Lower Upham Airfield.

[VanguardHelis]

Sorry to have come on to the site so late in the day, and even more
sorry that you didn't come to Vanguard Helicopters Ltd to illicit
accurate information initially. Thanks for all the kind comments.
Yes, we are, amongst 44's and Jet Rangers, maintaining a privately
owned Hiller 12 A/C, and have recently completed a skids upwards
rebuild of another, originally operated by the Los Angeles Police
Department. It is pictured in Vertical Challenge, that wonderful
history about Hillers.

Hillers are 50's technology, but to be fair, 50's technology at it's
best. The opinion that they need constant maintenance, or are difficult
or heavy to fly, are all probably because of the years of
inappropriate or even illegal maintenance that they have suffered
historically. With that open architecture they are a magnet for a
cowboy with a spanner.

Over the past few years we have found innumerable engineering bad
practices in Hillers imported from the USA. Just to mention a few. A
playboy magazine rolled up inside a "flying" Hiller tail boom which had
been used as a mould onto which an inappropriate and illegal filler had
been applied. Whoever did it forgot to retrieve his playboy. An
armoured fuel pipe, plumbing an auxilliary fuel tank, but with no inner
lining. Forks on the main rotor blades which were not a matching pair,
neither visual nor weight. Totally inappropriate and illegal bolts.
Tail rotor control wires snagged during fitting, against the metal seat
supports under the seats and therefore invisible to inspection, with
serious chaffing. Not to mention an array of home made alterations and
repairs to both the mechanical and electrical systems. STC's seem to be
a flexible feast in the USA.
So it is no wonder that these shoddy practices have resulted in poor
flying characteristics. But, what does it say for Hiller safety? They
must be extremely safe and forgiving, and capable of being flown when
most other helicopters would have failed.
If you want to talk Hiller, or any other helicopter maintenance come to
that, why don't you call us and visit. We'll be happy to tell you the
facts.
We don't know of any helicopter that you can safely maintain "on the
cheap", Hiller is no exception. Get the work done properly and
according to the manual, and Hiller is still a good private helicopter
which should give years of fantastic flying. And what a looker !!
If you are thinking of buying one and need a survey, call us.
Have a look at our web site and also helihiller.com which is an under
used, but very useful Hiller forum.
Bob West.

[jeepys]

Hello again,

I was going past Vanguard Helicopters whilst up at Henstridge the other day and watched them start the Hiller 12 that they have beautifully restored. It sounded very nostalgic but I noticed that the blades also ran up straight away when the engine fired up. Is there a direct drive with the Hiller as this does not seem to happen when they start either the Enstrom or the Robinson 44 that they also have.
The Hiller has fair old size blades on it and was wondering if the engine would benefit from being warmed up before it felt the weight of the rotor system.

Nevertheless it still looked impressive and its nice to see a classic restored to flying condition.

Will it be staying at Henstridge or nearby?

Thanks.

[Robert West]

Good afternoon Jeepys. Next time you are at Henstridge, call in and introduce yourself. We don't bite, we'll tell you the whole Hiller story, and may even go so far as offering you a cup of coffee.
Thanks for all your kind comments, I look forward to meeting you,
Robert.

[Chopper Doc]

The Hiller 12 has a centrifugal clutch much the same as the Bell 47 which is why the blades seem to start turning early. All the pilot does is increase the revs and hey presto the blades start turning.

[hillerman]

Just to build on the comments made on the Hiller start-up the Hiller has a centrifugal mercury clutch. A mercury bag is thrown out in a rotating assembly when the engine RPM builds up and engages the transmission which drives the MR & TR's directly. It is common for the clutch to catch straight away on start-up and see motion in the MR blades. The Franklin is then warmed up at 1700 RPM before opening out to its 3100 flying RPM.

p.s. we may be doing another run-up tomorrow morning Thurs 25th Feb.

[malc4d]

anyone have a poh for the 12b ?

[Nigel Osborn]

The Bell 47 had clutch shoes, like brake shoes, & needed the throttle to be reduced at a certain forgotten rpm to fully engage. The Hiller bags were a bit different but seemed to work well considering we were students.

The RN replaced the 12C with the 12E in 1963; it was great flying a brand new machine. From that new machine, we went onto Whirlwind Mk 3 & Mk 7 which really sorted out the boys from the men!!:)

[hillerman]

Here is a shot of the 12C overhauled recently by Vanguard:ok:

Glynn Williams Hillier UH-12 Test 11.3.10 030 - helicopters (http://helicopters.ning.com/photo/glynn-williams-hillier-uh12-2?context=latest)

[allwornout]

Hiller has built a factory in China. If the helicopter is not to be used for commmercial reasons and you r worried about cost, why not get a Chinese one?

[Whirlybird1]

As to the speed of the H12c, my late uncle built up a C from around90% new old stock parts but with a used Franklin 6V335. I partly overhauled the engine and gas flowed the heads and fitted a later longer duration new cam for an injected motor. We never had the power output measured but at a guess it must have been around 260hp at an indicated 3300rpm and it topped out at 86mph (GPS).
Andy.

[Karson Branham]

RVDT, yes, I know. But I did that say the pilot of the aircraft which is for sale "probably" has an FAA licence.

Cheers

Whirls
old thread but still very valid to post. The UH12C (H23C) is less expensive by quite a margin, to operate and maintain than the UH12E3. Both are 3 place machines. The 6V335B franklin engine consumes around 12-14 GPH, the VO540C2A Lycoming in theE consumes about 18-22 GPH. The franklin engines are known and reputable to be very troublefree compqred to the lycoming engines. There is a big difference in HP available. The C has 4 components that are time life limited, mostly tail rotor assembly parts. The mainrotor blades on the C model are wood and almost identical albeit a little shorter than the wooden blades of the Bell 47G. Gross takeoff weight of the C model is 2,500 lbs. Gross weight of the E with the latest model main rotor blades is 3,100 lbs. With the older Parsons tapered blades (similar shape and airfoil profile tonthebwooden blades) is 2,800 in standard category, and 3,100 in restricted category. There is not a less expensive Helicoter type or model in existence today that has standard airworthiness certificate than a H23C (UH12C) bar none. Very reliable, very inexpensive to operate and maintain. A Robinson is an accident waiting for a place to happen. Low energy rotor vs the high energy rotor of the Hiller of any model. Same as Bell 47. Real helicopters with real drive trains and no rubber bands. I would go with a Hiller. I have maintained Hiller helicopters for over 20 years, as well as many other types. The Hiller’s have been the most reliable and least expensive on the budget to maintain by quite a large margin.

[Triple Nickel 8 Ball]

I wish I could find a "bargain" Hiller to fly over here in the UK.....I think I need a Hiller in my life

[Helisweet]

Being rich and killing your sefl is no sense. Own a classic car for a while and you wont ever buy a old helo.

[hillerpilot]

HIllerBee,

Well, as the new General Manager of Hiller Aircraft Corporation and an owner and operator of 6 Hiller UH12E's, piston and turbine, I think I might be able to shed some light on the subject of Hillers. I am sure you are quite experienced, being an instructor and having time in the ships. I really can't comment on your experience as I am unable with the information provided to determine just how those ships you were flying were maintained.

However, I will say, that over the past 20 years, the customer support from the previous owners and managers of Hiller Aircraft was non-existent. Truly a shame and a travesty for the product. While the UH12a/b/c models were excellent aircraft, each with its own strengths, they were the foundation of the program and provided the path to many positive improvements leading to the workhorse of the fleet, the UH12E, E-L and L models. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, performance for performance: nothing can out work a Hiller. I am fond of saying that if I thought I could get away with it, I would "Paint it Green and slap a Yellow Deer on its side". But that just about sums it up.

I have many hours, and days, flying the Hiller operationally, on actual flight missions, ranging from search and rescue to Ag applications. I can tell you, from my seat, if one takes care to preform the proper maintenance, per the manual, then the Hiller provides a superior up-time mission availability of any Helicopter in its category, class and market. It has never let me down. There are many signs, long before failure, of pending issues that need resolution. If you keep a sharp eye out during pre-flight and post-flight inspections and address the issues as they appear, this Helicopter will never let you down either. Of course, this also requires the support of the factory which we are addressing now. Simply go to our new website www.hilleraircraft.com and you will see the improvements to date. More to come.

I am happy you enjoy the R22 for training, even here are Hiller, while we are focused on training pilots to be Hiller pilots, we recognize that the truly rounded pilot will need some Robby time. However, if I am not wrong, you are speaking to people not running a flight school but general users. So, one last important point I would like to make before I conclude. Something to consider when making your choice, the Robinson aircraft are only good for 2200 hours or 12 years, whichever comes first. Unless you intend to fly your aircraft almost 200 hours a year, which few general aviation operators do, you will run into to the 12 year issue. Just think, you can purchase an R22, R44, R66, fly it 100 hours and then put it away, In 12 years, its done, full overhaul at the tune of 150 to 250K or more for the turbine. Wow, that is really saving money and economically prudent. Not sure I would want to be facing that prospect as a business case. The Hiller, all Hillers, never run out of time, you simply replace those components as they run out of time and keep going. Also, the legacy models like the A/B and C all have provisions to get some of the required parts from your closest auto parts store. Not available on a Robinson or any production Helicopter that I know of, except the Hiller.

So, our experiences are quite different, should you or anyone like to discuss Hillers. The website hilleraircraft.com is up and running to support all of our valued customers, and those that are interested in Hillers and the Factory is once again open for business and will be back in production soon. If you need parts, service or just support, give us a call. The new team is ready to help.

Respectfully,

Captain Michael Tragarz
General Manager
Hiller Aircraft Corporation

[rotormatic]

When will M/R blades be available for the 12E?