Handley Page Hermes IV

[tonytech2]

In the 1950's I worked at Lockheed Air Service at New York's then KIDL (now KJFK). We handled a lot of "nonskeds", etc plus scheduled foreign and domestic carriers. Rarest bird I ever worked was a Hermes IV. Came in with a replacement merchant ship crew for a ship in NY harbor.

Rode on the taxi over from old IAB terminal to Hangar 7 and noted that air brakes require some engine revs to maintain pressure. Got to uncowl one engine and replace some spark plugs which to my American eyes were strangely located in the top of the cylinder heads. I know that was due to the Bristol Hercules sleeve valve design. Also the aft of the cabin was empty of seats as I was told the Hermes was a rework of the H.P. Hastings which was a tail dragger. This apparently made the Hermes rather tail heavy, hence plenty of room for the biggest and most luxurious lavatories in the aft end but no seats in the cabin for at least last ten feet. Flight engineer's panel had a lot of very large diameter gauges.

Does anyone know who the operator of the aircraft was? I lost my notebook where I logged the odd ones we worked. Airwork seems to be in my head as the airline. Even better, anyone know the registration of the aircraft? To my knowledge it was the only Hermes ever to come to New York.

[WHBM]

BOAC were the original operator of the Hermes, in the early 1950s. Yes, it was a thoroughly unsatisfactory design and they got rid of them after just a few years. They mainly got used on shorter trips to East/West Africa. The tail-heavy aspect was never overcome and apparently they presented a curious nose-high view air-to-air. Alas the prototype was so unstable in this respect, compounded by a miscalculation of the elevator rigging, that it crashed on the maiden flight, killing among others Jamie Talbot, the Handley Page chief test pilot.

They were never looked on favourably by BOAC and were sold off to UK independents operating mainly long-haul military charters, a major business in the 1950s, to points such as Aden and Singapore. Such independents were not allowed foreign currency to buy US-built aircraft, so it was the Hermes or nothing. Airwork was one of these operators, along with Skyways and Britavia, and later Air Safaris.

Airwork got a licence to operate cargo services from London to New York in 1955 but had no suitable aircraft for regular transatlantic operation, so chartered Transocean DC-4s for the route. It never worked out and they gave it up after a few months. I am surprised they managed a passenger charter because that involved all sorts of further licences, but I wasn't there to see it and you were :)

The various Bristol Siddeley sleeve-valve radials were known for their smoke on startup, when controllers in the tower would joke about "LVPs for the next 10 minutes". The engine manufacturer had a long although abortive relationship with such engines, Armstrong Siddeley luxury cars in the 1930s having the same style of sleeve-valve engine (although not radials of course).

It would be unkind to call the Hermes just a version of the Handley Page Halifax bomber (which my father flew in WW2) with a pressurised fuselage, but that's basically what it was.

The operating period for Airwork's fleet was from February 1952 to late 1959. The fleet comprised seven aircraft G-AKFP, and G-ALDA/B/C/F/G/O. DB and DF were both lost in 1952 within months of introduction, AKFP was a replacement, itself lost in 1957, and DG its replacement that year, so there were never more than five at once, and mostly four.

The Wikipedia page on the Hermes is pretty straightforward.

[renfrew]

I found this in Propliner 87.
Britavia Hermes G-ALDU operated a passenger charter from Blackbushe to New York on 14Nov1955.

[WHBM]

Very good. A little more detective work gives an account of the journey published in Flight magazine at the time

jersey airlines | air france | 1955 | 1698 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%201698.html)

[tonytech2]

My deepest appreciation to renfrew for digging out the date and information on the charter. The time fits as I was working there then. Interestingly enough, the maintenance people had to taxi the aircraft - apparently the pilots had already left for the hotel leaving the flight engineer who strangely wasn't authorized to taxi the aircraft. So he started the engines for us, did the taxi prep and set the radios and we drove it over. It was during the taxi that he told us to rev the engine a bit as the air compressor wouldn't charge the brakes at low rpm's. Seemed peculiar to me to have to rev the engines to stop!

Anyway, an interesting looking aircraft indeed - at first glance (at night on ramp) it looked like a DC-4. I was always on the lookout for different aircraft or airlines.

One other rare bird I saw (didn't work it though) later at KJFK was a Trident belonging to an Arab airline. It was taxiing on the outer perimeter taxiway and again, I did a double-take thinking it was a B727 and then seeing the offset nose gear and boom in front of the horizontal stabilizer I realized what it was. That was the only Trident I ever saw at KJFK.

[renfrew]

Looking through Google I remembered that Bahamas Airways had a few Skyways Hermes for a short time.
I wonder what route they took on delivery?

[tonytech2]

I am amazed at the depth of knowledge of PPRUN'ers. Thanks for the article WHBM and I am a little proud that I correctly remembered it was a mechant ship crew exchange after so many years. I copied the text of the article below for others information. Didn't know at the time I was taking a small part in such a historic event. ;)

I suspect that any ferry flights to the Bahamas would have staged through Bermuda rather than New York.

TRANSATLANTIC HERMES

One of the six Handley Page Hermes operated by Britavia. Ltd.,
last week became the first aircraft of its type to fly the North Atlantic. Carrying 39 passengers on both outward and return trips, it was chartered to carry relief members of a ship's crew to New York and to return the replaced men to the U.K. The aircraft, Hermes 4 G-ALDU, left Blackbushe on November 14th and reached New York in 17 hr 15 min flying time via Shannon and Gander; it returned via Gander in 16 hr 9 min. It was commanded by Britavia's flight captain, Capt. W. P. Allan.

[GAZIN]

Although a bit before my time I have always thought that the Hermes IV was one of the best looking propliners. Despite being a flawed design it proved a useful aircraft in the end.
I believe Falcon Airways also performed a US charter with one of their Hermes, & as already mentioned Bahamas A/W (Skyways) operated three of the type into Miami.
The engineers panel!
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/Jetmech_photos/engineers-panel-sml.jpg

[merlinxx]

What led you to that opinion ? The Hermes was a real crock in any operators book:ugh: Nice shot of the Spanner's panel though:ok:

[norwich]

Just checked out my bible, "British Independent Airlines since 1946" there is no mention of this flight ! But there is this photo by Micheal Stroud.

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/old%20props/ldu.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

A six foot plug in the front fuselage, a modified fin and the Hermes could have been quite successful. Despite the complexities of the sleeve valve arrangement the Bristol Hercules radials were the mainstay of the Royal Air Force transport units until the mid sixties. It's successor, the Centaurus, still shows its mettle at the Reno air races. A real nightmare, or how many bits can you get inside an engine block, is the sleeve valved H24 Napier Sabre.

[tonytech2]

Are any of the Sea Furies being raced with the Centaurus engines? I thought they replaced them with modified R3350's where they use the power section of the turbo compounds less the power recovery turbines. I know an Australian group is trying to resurect a Centaurus to running order and having problems.

Wonder how they got the C.G. so screwed up on the Hermes? Enormous waste of cabin space. One would think that could have been corrected as mentioned with a cabin plug. Douglas certainly stretched the DC-4 fuselage enough through the DC-6 to DC-6A/B and DC-7 to DC-7C as did Lockheed did with the Constellation.

Also, the crash of the prototype Hermes as noted above eerily echos the crash of the prototype Avro Tudor where they crossed the aileron controls and killed the designer along with the crew.

So both of the Brits hopes for a four engined transport to compete with the Connies and DC-6 had crashes of the prototypes. I don't think the Tudor had a hope as a taildragger but the Hermes at least looked promising. The Britannia originally was to be Centaurus powered but went to the Proteus early on but strangely, went back to pistons in its reincarnation as the Argus at Canadair. And then regrew turboprops as the CL-44.

[GAZIN]

From what I have read the Hermes project was dogged by delays & indecision on the part of BOAC, a critical delay involved the interior layout, particularly the galley, this resulted in the wing position & incidence being less than optimal. Remember also that this was a so called interim airliner based on bomber wings. A pretty big compromise to start with! The engine performance wasn't what was expected either, contributing to a tail down cruise attitude.
There was little or no interest on the part of the various ministry's responsible for aircraft production in accommodating the needs of any airlines other than BOAC & BEA, so no money for further development.
The more I read about this period in British aviation the more amazed I am that our manufacturers managed to build any decent airliners. They seem to have persevered despite intolerable restrictions.
I have been told that Air Safaris put a rear galley in one of their Hermes (G-ALDA) & after the addition of more windows forward of the wings, quite a few extra seats.

[Krakatoa]

The original tail wheel prototype Hermes was still flying in the late sixties.
It visited Ballykelly 1967 ? I believe it was employed by the Radar trials
people at Pershore.

[tonytech2]

Boeing of course used the wings from its bombers on various of it airliners with considerable success.
The B.314 boats used the wings and cockpit section of the XB-15 but of course upgraded to R-2600 engines.
The Boeing 307 used the wings and empannage from the B-17 and in fact near wars end some of them swapped out the wings with those from the B-17G model. One difference though, the B307 wings were fitted with fixed slots outboard due to the crash of the prototype during a demonstration flight for KLM.
The B377 Stratocruiser used the B-29 wing and engines in the prototype and then upgraded to the B-50 configuration.

[treadigraph]

Re Sea Furies and Reno, I believe they are all R3350 driven these days, with the exception of "Dreadnaught" which boasts an R4360 nailed to the front.

Tonytech2, you mention an Arabic Trident - Iraqi Airways and Kuwait Airways both operated them in the 1960s - New York seems a long way from home for them though!

Wanna see another Hermes? The fuselage of G-ALDG is preserved at Duxford. I well remember it between the British Caledonian hangars and the A23 at Gatwick in the 1970s, used for Cabin Crew training.

[FAStoat]

Re Centaurus Sea Furies,No one in Europe since Hoistler Gmbh in Germany,has an interest in maintaining Sleeve Valve Engines.Ricardo in Shoreham did the last RNHF Overhaul,and it cost so much the Engines now go to the States.However,the States as already stated are putting anything from 3350 t0 4800 P&W' s in ,because the remanufacture of the Sleeves is not financially possible.Getchell Ellesworth has looked at it at length.In the 70s when I was heavilly involved with this,I received a midnight knock on the door,to find both Frank Sanders and Getchell standing in the rain,asking to come in.The RTO from Rolls Bristol,Johnny Danes and Buster Paine ,and myself were looking at cobbling one seviceable engine from 3 Time Ex Ex Hoistler ones.They had civilianised the Spec to replace the long Piston with oil control ring below the gudgeon pin,with the Slipper type from the Bristol Hercules,which was identical in bore and port profile.This meant a lot less stress in the rotary gear that operated the sleeve drive,that caused so many failures.They looked at the pistons we had extracted and miked them up,and went off to find a source for Hercules Pistons.The Americans (Lloyd Hamilton),had tried chroming the bores,like P&Ws,but after ground running for hours on end,could not get the engines to bed in,even with cast rings.The Sleeves did not appear to be concentric ,but had a slight polygonal inner surface,like modern semi automatic pistol barrels that have no rifling,and thus are incredibly difficult to remanufacture.The only alternative was to fit a Corncob derivative.Frank and Lloyd were the first to do this,and everyone else followed,except Getchell Ellesworth who has perservered.There is another problem,and that is lubrication.Sleeve Valve engines use a very different spec oil-100U-A heavy detergent oil which allows burnt oil dross to stick to the clearances of the moving parts,and fills its own gaps,without having to have tighter tolerances.Thus the complexity of the moving parts is kept together.If a straight oil is used ,or even a W,this Oil residue is flushed out into the filters and is lost,thus a lot of metal to metal movement occurs ,causing too much wear.Shell has not made this for decades,until a batch ordered from Chris Fear by me,for RNHF in '76 ,coinciding with a RNZAF Order for their Freighters,and RNHF again in 2000.The mod for fitting P&Ws is quite straightforward,but can only use the Hamilton 4 Blade Prop.They have a never ending supply of these,so that is the only way Sea Furies can be maintained.The other Sea Fury problem the the Bag operated Pneumatic brakes-These are the same as Meteors,and no longer exist,apart from M&B at Chalgrove.Thus Lloyd and Frank modified F102 Brakes and Wheels(Same section and diameter),and the rudder pedals to give Hydraulic Brakes and a safe landing.Sorry this is a bit off thread,but Sleeve Valve knowledge is dying out ,so I have tried to explain the problems.Stephen Grey may have the wherewithal to remedy this,as he goes to great lengths to be original.

[tonytech2]

Happy to hear at least a Hermes fuselage is preserved.
Question though: What is the connection between the H.P. Hastings and the H.P. Hermes. I thought the Hermes was basically a Hastings that grew a nose gear and was civilianized a bit. Was the Hastings pressurized?

Granted its off thread but sleeve valve engine history is getting lost. Thanks so much for a lesson in realities of operational problems.
Back when I was turning Britannias around at KJFK, I talked a bit with the Bristol rep who helped us with the Proteus engines. He had a lot to say about sleeve valved engines. He was not an enthusiast. They certainly were quiet enough and superbly constructed but he had some interesting tales of trying to start some of TransCanada's Bristol Freighters in dead cold of winter up North.

I would love to see some of this sleeve valve info spread to the Aircraft Engine Historical Society. The gearheads there will eat it up. There has been quite a bit of mooning about the superiority of sleeve valves over poppet valves. It would appear there may be some theoretical advantages but practically speaking, Father Time sorted it out and poppet valves persist.
AEHS Home (http://www.enginehistory.org/)

Regarding the Arab operated Trident I saw - I believe there was a big affair going on at the United nations in New York so it was undoubtably bringing in a delegation. Used to see some Russian airliners in for the same reason.

[SincoTC]

On my way to school sometime in the mid fifties, I saw a Hermes at Southend Airport that was rather tail high (about 40 degrees), unfortunately, it had buried its nose in the Southend (Victoria) to London (Liverpool Street) railway line after running of the end of the runway. I dont think there were any serious injuries, but the operator's name was soon painted over to cover their embarrassment.

I can't remember the operator or if the line had been electrified by this time, but it would have been very near to the 24kV overhead wires if it was!

[WHBM]

On my way to school sometime in the mid fifties, I saw a Hermes at Southend Airport that was rather tail high (about 40 degrees), unfortunately, it had buried its nose in the Southend (Victoria) to London (Liverpool Street) railway line after running of the end of the runway. I dont think there were any serious injuries, but the operator's name was soon painted over to cover their embarrassment.

I can't remember the operator or if the line had been electrified by this time, but it would have been very near to the 24kV overhead wires if it was!
This would be G-ALDC, operated by Falcon Airways, which aquaplaned and pitched in at Southend on 9 October 1960, returning on a holiday charter from Barcelona. Several of the Hermes losses, from quite a small fleet, were on landing, I get the impression it was quite a handful.

Going back to the start of this thread, this aircraft had also performed a couple of charters across the Atlantic earlier that 1960 summer, transiting via Keflavik. Not stated what its ultimate destination was, but it seems several Hermes ventured over there through time.

That railway line was electrified in 1956. I come overhead it from time to time myself on the Southend 24 approach; even when right on the PAPIs you still feel quite close to the wires ! There are special guard wires on short poles at the railway fence on both sides of the tracks which, if broken, set the railway signals to red and cut off the power. I presume if the Hermes aquaplaned and ended up against the railway they must have been on 06. I believe its not the only aircraft to have ended up there.

[SincoTC]

Thanks WHBM,

Yes, I remember now it was Falcon, but it was later than I thought. I agree that their record indicates they were a handful on landing, but in this ones defence, it was very wet at the time and I think that 06 wasn't very well drained, because I can remember seeing a Bristol Freighter doing a bit of train spotting a few years before and a Viscount had a close call too around the time of the Hermes accident. The old grey cells are now recalling that there was talk in the local paper of an earth ramp and a trip wire to cut-off the overhead power, but I think that lessons were learnt about aquaplaning and the runway draining was improved. Althought it would have been interesting to see Ski-Jump type takeoffs!

[GAZIN]

Tonytech2, the Hermes 1 & the Hastings look very similar, they were essentially the same apart from the windows. The Hastings was not pressurized & I'm fairly sure that the Hermes 1 wasn't either. The Hermes 2 was longer & pressurized but still a tail dragger, it was the Hermes 2 design that was modified into the Hermes 4. The sole Hermes 2 outlived the last operational Hermes 4 by 4 years.

FAStoat that was fascinating & rather worrying info on the Centaurus. I hope they can be kept viable for a few more years, despite the obvious advantages of the US engine conversion the sound of a Centaurus with its five bladed prop is simply to die for.

[CV880]

I started my apprenticeship in 1961 with a now distant airline that had a Bristol Hercules overhaul line which at that time was all for third parties. I spent a lot of time in the various sections comprising the line and deveoped a great deal of respect for the designers. We also had a low rate P&W R2800 overhaul line but I think I preferred the Hercules as a machine. Assembly of the Hercules was very simple and two experienced mechanics and an apprentice churned out an engine to the test cell every 10 working days without raising a sweat. Timing of the sleeve drive gears was a piece of cake. As far as I can recall we never had a serious failure and all engines ran to their overhaul life on wing. By this time Bristol seem to have resolved any sleeve lubrication issues.
In contrast there were some nasty, expensive failures with the R2800's eg. master rod cylinders blowing off, crankshaft failure.
One particular beauty of the Hercules was the elimination of lockwire inside the crankcase. Everything was locked by tabwashers or split pins. In contrast the R2800 used lockwire everywhere and one had to be very careful not to overtwist the wire which fatigued it and could result in an premature engine removal due to "lockwire in the filters". I recall a senior apprentice being very downcast after he had spent 1 or 2 days lockwiring all the valve gear in a front case only to have it all rejected by the inspector for overtwisting (no more than 5 twists per half inch rings a bell).

[Fareastdriver]

My father flew various marks of Halifaxes from 1943-1950. Going through his log books it seems that losing an engine was a fairly common occurence. Not that they stopped going but that they would start 'gulping' and would be shut down before they ran out of oil. As a child at Aldergrove I used to watch the daily Bismuth trip come back with one feathered more often than not. He had two go at one time but he managed to drag it back to Shannon from somwhere in the Atlantic and received the AFC.
Fast forwarding to Labuan in 1966 and it was still a problem with Valettas and Hastings. Clutching cans of Tiger with the SEngO revealed that there was no reason for it. Fill it up with oil and it would carry on on for hundreds of hours without doing it again.

[straightfeed]

The old man was a Flight Engineer on the Hermes for Airwork out of Blackbushe.
Being very young I dont remember much about it all but I do remember he was not too impressed with the engineers position facing rearwards!
I believe it was common to shutdown the wrong (opposite) engine when commanded from the sharp end!

SFD

[WHBM]

Here's someone on PPRuNe a few years ago quoting a BOAC staff magazine article about the Hermes. Obviously not the writer's favourite aircraft.

Ah, the Hermes 4! In contrast to the Argonaut, it entered service with BOAC on 7 August 1950. All 19 were gone by 1 October 1953. As early as August 1952, BOAC were passing some on to Airwork. Apparently it was: " ... the biggest Heap that anyone ever flew, that it built up an unenviable reputation among passengers for monstrous irregularity and non-appearance, and that it did more damage in its ludicrously short operational life to BOAC's reputation than all the other aeroplanes we ever owned put together." (Horizon - The Magazine of BOAC Flight Operations September/October 1966.)

[Stenner153]

My father flew Hermes with Airwork from start to finish, he flew some 'hot and high' trials with Hedley Hazeldon who was Handley Pages Chief Test Pilot at the time.(they also served together in 49 and 50 Squadron during the war flying Hampdens). Father always said there was not much wrong with the aircraft, just the pilots who flew them. One of Airworks was put down in the sea off Malta, and one in a French cornfield mainly due to over heated engines. My father was Chief Pilot and Training Captain with Airwork and never had a problem with the Hermes, although he did have to shut down the occasional engine due to over heating. I flew on several trips to EGYPT during the Suez crisis when the Hermes had RAF registrations, they certainly didn't like the sand around Fayid.

[A37575]

I know an Australian group is trying to resurect a Centaurus to running order and having problems.

That would be a Pprune mate of mine in Australia who goes under the username of Centaurus. He is a bit old now and certainly has "running order problem" to the toilet several times a night :ok:

[JEM60]

As Treadigraph says, the only surviving Hermes fuselage is at Duxford. Having admired it for many years from the outside, I now find that public are allowed in it. I was astonished to find that the flight deck was complete, and was delighted to be allowed to sit in the Captain's saeat. Well worth a visit.

[fauteuil volant]

Can anyone post a photo of the Hermes as a cabin trainer at Gatwick. Goodness knows how many times I passed it on the A23 but never took a photo of it!

[norwich]

Sorry fauteuil volant, I do not have a photo of her on the A23, but do remember it very well !
I do have photos of her at Duxford as she is now !

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/duxford/101207040.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/duxford/101207038.jpg

[geoffmilner]

Hi My Names Geoff Milner.my Mother Was A No I Air Stewarddess On Airwork Vikings And Then On Hermes Aircraft.she Was No1 On Board Hermes G-aldo That Shot Off The Runway At Paya Lebar Airfield On 29th Oct 1957.the Aircraft Ended In A Ditch.the Toilets Broke Open And All The Contents Ran Down The Aisle.my Mother Let Me Copy The Photos Of The Crashed Aircraft.the Aircraft Was Repaired And Flown Back To Blackbushe And Burnt On The Firedump.what A Waste.my Mother Was 83 On 14th Feb 2009.her Maiden Name Was Barbara Hey.she Probably Flew With Your Father.the Captain Was Bill Winsland.my Mother Has Lent Me A Photo With An Airwork Hermes Flt Engineer Called George Piper Taken Down At Ankara,turkey.your Father Would Have Known Him.what Was Your Fathers Name?my Tel No Is Horsham 01403-241238 If You Would Like To Chat.mymother Married My Father Who Was A Pilot Flying Lancs,then Lots Of Other Militaary And Civil Aircraft.speak Soon I Hope....

[Opssys]

fauteuil volant:

BUA:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9g9gbl9dTkg/SR3HVYlAFrI/AAAAAAAADgI/usP7quAyVQc/s720/1969HermesBUA_LGW.jpg

Caledonian/BUA:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9g9gbl9dTkg/SR3HWpfL6-I/AAAAAAAADgQ/Mh0pHwGdAFg/s720/1971HermesCABR_LGW.jpg

British Caledonian:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9g9gbl9dTkg/SR3HXvQ0pYI/AAAAAAAADgY/rUpOhkXIwO4/s720/1976HermesBCAL_LGW.jpg

The above are copyright Caz Caswell (http://www.airpixbycaz.co.uk/cazsite/) and are published with his permission.
Freddie Laker 'rescued' the airframe from the fire dump when MD of BUA and it served generations of Cabin Crew as a trainer. Despite being 'in service' as such for most of its life once the takeover occurred and moved to Duxford, misplacing its Fin in the process, it reverted to the original operator scheme:

BOAC at Duxford Minus Fin:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_9g9gbl9dTkg/SR3HYmw85HI/AAAAAAAADgg/4roPRaGL_B8/s720/1995HermesBOAC_DFD.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9g9gbl9dTkg/SR3HZ_EppDI/AAAAAAAADgo/1_4iGRpLGHk/s720/2000HermesBOAC_DFD.jpg
I am not sure of the copyright on these two.

I know I wrote some extensive notes on this aircraft G-ALDG, but I think it was for a Closed User Group and therefore is not generally available, although as I seem to get into trouble with the Mods when I publish a link to my sites that probably is fortunate,
Opssys
Edit to correct Registration!

[Opssys]

Found Notes:
The Handley Page HP.81 Hermes 4 which ended up as a Cabin Trainer for 26 years and is currently a Museum Exhibit, was orignally built in 1950 as part of an order for BOAC with constructor number (cn) 08. On completion the Aircraft was registered G-ALDG and was delivered to BOAC on the 9th March 1950, when it was Named: 'Horsa'.
In August 1957 the Aircraft was sold to Airwork, and subsequently sold to Falcon Airways in October 1959.
Almost immediately the Aircraft was passed to Britavia/Silver City, being delivered to the Manston Base during December 1959. The Aircraft was renamed: 'City of Chester'. However the Aircraft's flying career was nearly over and was withfrawn from use (wfu)in September 1962 and was listed as scrapped at Gatwick in October 1962.
Although not the last operational Hermes 4 (G-ALDA lingered on to 1964 and operated the last commercial service in Air Links colours on 13th December 1964 and the last ever Hermes flight when it was ferried to Southend for scapping on the 22nd December 1964), GALDG was the most fortunate and whilst the rest of the type were reduced to produce and then totally scrapped (the last one, G-ALDM being scrapped at Hurn in May 1968 after being wfu for a number of years), the Fuselage was rescued to become a Cabin Services Trainer for British United Airways.
Over the years the Colour schemed Changed in line with the current livery, until 1971 when post the Caledonian takeover of BUA it was painted in the Caledonian-BUA Scheme, which fortunately soon became BCAL.
When the Security fence was built, the Airframe was moved (making photography more difficult).
Post the British Airways takeover the Airframe was moved to Duxford to be part of the British Airways Collection, in the process loosing its vertical tail.
The Aircraft was repainted in its original BOAC Colour scheme, complete with the Name Horsa.

Handley Page Hermes 4 Known Cabin Configurations
BUA/CA-BUA/BCAL : - Unknown - can anyone advise?
Handley Page PR: - 63 Passenger - 7 Crew
BOAC: - 40 Passenger - 5 Crew
Airwork - 68 Rearward Facing Seats (Trooping Requirement)
Bahamas Airways Ltd - 78 Seats
Air Links - 82 Seats

Handley Page Hermes 4 General Specifications
Engines: 4 x 2,100 h.p Bristol Hercules 763.
Span:- 113 feet, - Length:- 96ft. 10in. - Height:- 29ft. 11in. Tare Weight:- 55,350lbs - All-up Weight:- 86,000lbs
Max Speed:- 350mph. Cruise Speed:- 276mph
Ceiling:- 24,500ft. - Range:- 2,000miles
Production: Hermes 4 - 25 Aircraft:

Handley Page Hermes 1,2 and 5 Brief Notes
HP.68 Hermes 1 - Crashed on First Flight the most similar to the HP.64. Hastings - 1 Built
HP.74 Hermes 2 - Development Prototype (Tail Wheel) - 1 Built.
HP.84 Hermes 5 - Turoprop Powered Development and Test Aircraft for MoS - 2 Built
Opssys

[b377]

Did the Hernes have a pressurised cabin?

Nearest competitor was probably the Dc4 but wonder how the specs compared in terms of speed, ceiling, payload and range.

[GAZIN]

Yes the Hermes was pressurised, although 4 aircraft flew without it to wards the end of their careers. Handley Page liked to compare it to the DC6, had it received the same level of development it probably could have competed with it. But the Hermes was designated as an interim development, being based on the Halifax wing, therefore I doubt that there was any intension to take it further. The Britannia was going to be Britain's world beating propliner!
It's nice to see some positive recollections of the Hermes on this thread, keep them coming:ok:

Some figures from the Observers book of aircraft 1955 edition;

Cruising speed.
DC4, 246mph. DC6, 313mph. HP81, 266mph.

Weight empty/loaded lbs;
DC4 40,806/73,000. DC6 51,495/97,200. HP81 55,350/86,000

The range is not given in the Observers book, but the absolute max range for the DC6 & HP81 are given as 2,811 & 3,080 respectively, in the book Hastings & Hermes by Victor. F. Bingham.

[tornadoken]

There has been a myth that UK was required in 1942 by US to exit airliner design, thus putting headwinds on the Brabazon-suite's development. No. Priority in production would be bombers/UK, transports/US, not to inhibit new US bombers, nor Cabinet Committee on Reconstruction Problems from airliners. War Cabinet Minutes W.M.(43).35,25/2/43, SecState for Air, approving Brabazon Committee Types: “We will not accept a solution (to Civil Air Transport) on the basis that we won’t build any a/c and we want authority (to) plan some production”. A US/UK Conference on International Air Transport, 3-7 April,1944 set technical matters which became UN (ICAO) standards; to strengthen UK's stature there, MAP issued ITPs 4/5 April,1944 for Brabazon Interim Type III Empire H.P.88 (Halifax-derived, evolving as Hermes IV) and Avro 687/XX (Lincoln-derived, morphing in Sept.’44 as Avro 688 Tudor I). Commercial issues (to be the Eight Freedoms) were to be addressed in Chicago, Nov.,44. To prepare for that a Ministry of Civil Aviation was formed 8/10/44, to be the sponsor of $ export-earning/import substitution types. Should they have Theseus/Clyde turboprops to dish C-54/C-69 and US' raft of gargantuas like L-89 Constitution? HP and Avro schemed such things, while prototyping their Interims.

What went wrong was this:
1. BOAC finessed "used" L-049, B.377, and part-£ DC-4 (C-4M), and lost any yen for feeble UK Interims;
2. The need for B-29 pressurisation caused (Garrett)AiResearch: all Brabazon Types "leaked" until we sorted this out, structurally, and by Westland licence as Normalair;
3. From late-1946 HP and Avro became distracted from BOAC/BSAAC's Empire business by the prospect of a jet Medium Bomber, won end-1947 by (to be) Victor and Vulcan. Tired Halifax/Lanc retreads took junior priority. Bristol, with zero large structures expertise, was in a field of one for son-of-Type III, Medium Range Empire. BOAC succeeded in dumping Tudor, very nearly ditto on Hermes, and extracted scarce $ for proper equipment, which, they told Ministers, would be self-financing (Bring Over American Currency).

[merv32249213]

Flew home from Habbannia in a Britavia Hermes Nov 1955. As for memories , saw red hot cylinder heads through the gill openings .
Ice clanking down the side of the fuse as the deicing system worked overtime during the bad weather that tossed us all over the place . At least it was better than the out bound flight in a York, two and a half years previous . Am I right, that one of the letdowns of the Hermes was its incompatability of its electrical system when it came to the general handling, different from most types of that era
Merv

[GAZIN]

Merv, you are correct about the electrics, the Hermes used 125 volt ac generators, but the world eventually settled on the US favoured 115 volt ac elec. systems. I believe that there were other voltages used for various components that also failed to become industry standard.
I hadn't realised how hot those engines could get, it has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread.

[fauteuil volant]

Thanks, opssys, for the images of G-ALDG at Gatwick. They certainly brought back some memories. I chuckled to see the perimeter road as it was. I used regularly to ride along it on my bike. I suspect that I would cause a major police incident if I tried that nowadays. How times change!

[Stenner153]

Geoff, my father was Charles Stenner, he joined Airwork in 1947(or near)he was Chief Pilot and Training Captain for most of his time with Airwork.
Vic Clifford(an Aussie) and Gerry Wilkinson were Captains, also a man called Woolf.
There was a Captain Winslow who put a Hermes down somewhere. A few other names from his log book, Captain Lovelock, R/O Wright(a Maltese gent)Watty Tyler who was an engineer, Dutch Holland an F/O.

[Narmitaj]

Hallo Mr Stenner. I happened on this forum while looking into Airwork Hermes. My father also flew for Airwork, as a first officer, from 1953 to 1956. He flew with your father at least couple of times that I can see from his log book - as a pilot from Blackbushe to Fayid via Malta and back June 24-June 26 1954 and as a passenger from Allahabad to Singapore Aug 31-Sep 1 1954.

Other captains who show up often are Muggeridge, Zeiher, Winsland, and even one called Hermes.

After Airwork my father flew for Kuwait Airways from 1956 to retirement in 1974, flying a Hermes at one point, and also DC-3s, Viscount, Comet, Trident (briefly) and finally Boeing 707 from 1968 on (see some of my pics in the Beirut 1960s photo gallery - we lived in Lebanon - on my site nawaller dot com). Prior to Airwork he had been in the RAF, mainly as a flying instructor in Canada and then in the last few months of the war as captain on Liberators for Coastal Command squadron 547.

He was born in Street in Somerset, lived in retirement in Cheddar and Wedmore, and he died not next to Weston in the hospice at Uphill in 2004.

[Stenner153]

Thanks for your reply. When father left Airwork he flew Brits for Ghana, Caledonian and Donaldsons. He retired in 1972 to Keinton Mandeville, nr Somerton, Somerset.(He died in 2006). Roy Hermes went to Caledonian on the Brits and later 707's.

[norwich]

Thought this may be of interest, Scanned from a very good book, in my opinion, 'Britains Airlines' volume two : 1951 - 1964 by Guy Halford - Macleod.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/airwork2.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/airwork1.jpg

[Stenner153]

My father was the Captain on that flight. departed Blackbushe at 1950, arrived Hal Far 0215, departed Hal Far 0420, arrived Fayid 0925. The F/O was Wigley undergoiong a route check. On the flight back Norman Head was the F/O. On 02/07/52 he did the same trip Route Training for Captain Lovelock, the same pilot who put the Hermes down in France.

I am 99% certain that the lad standing between the two Air Hostesses is 11 year old me, with my Cub Scouts hat on. I remember having my photo taken with some soldiers, but I thought it was a different date, later than June 52.

[Stenner153]

Hello Narmitaj. A few names you may recognize in your fathers log book, F/O Waller, Phillips, Bland, Riley, Knowles, Mitchell, McCash, Mussett, Goodman, Head, Clifford, Bunn, Winslow, Gerry Wilkinson. Do you recall Ted Shrimpton who used to drive the Crew Bus.

[aviationmad]

My Uncle told me of the time he was in the RAF here in Cyprus in the late 1950s. He was posted here as an armorer in 1958. In July(?) 1959 he flew in an Air sea rescue Hastings from Nicosia to Diyarbakir to join in the search for a missing Hermes operated by Airwork which went down in the region of Mt Ararat. The Turkish authorities had failed to locate the aeroplane so the Hastings was sent to look for it. After 3 days searching the aircraft was located. Food and supplies were dropped in case there were any survivours. Once the aircraft had been pinpointed my Uncle along with others proceeded on foot to the crash site. When they reached the site the bodies of the 3 crew were nowhere to be found. Also the cargo of the aircraft had disappeared! It was thought that the aircraft was enroute from the UK to Woomera in Oz with an A bomb on board! It is believed the Russians had created false DME signals to lure the aircraft into Soviet Armenia. The search team returned to Cyprus in a Lancaster which was based in Malta. My uncle also heard of a US B47 which also disappeared in this area. Does anyone know any more details?

[renfrew]

This surely refers to the Air Charter Tudor crash in April 1959.

[aviationmad]

Thanks for that. My Uncle was a bit vague! Onto the Tudor site then! The mountain that the aircraft hit was Mt Suphandag north of Lake Van.

[WHBM]

There's a long and fascinating account of the mission to the crashed Tudor in Turkey, written by the RAF Mountain Resce team, here :

RAFMRS - RAFMRA Two Star Red Chapter 5 (http://www.rafmountainrescue.com/Article%20Archive/2%20Star%20Red/Chapter%205/Two%20Star%20Red%20Chapter%205.htm)

it may have had supplies for the atomic programme but I doubt it actually had a bomb on board.

[tornadoken]

Final UK live airtest was Yellow Sun I H-device, Malden I, S.Pacific, 11/9/58. Oz then signed up to no atmospheric testing. Later UK tests were under the Nevada desert.

[Handley]

I have recently joined this Forum and seeing some of the Handley Page Hermes postings reminded me of the time I flew in an Airwork Hermes but I am still trying to find out which one.
When I was stationed at RAF Nicosia over 50 years ago with the Suez crisis then building up many extra troops flew out to Cyprus in August 1956, but the aeroplanes returned empty to the UK. On 28 August 1956 I and another airman were due for some leave in the UK so we hitched a lift in an Airwork Hermes by smartly saluting the Captain and showing him our RAF Air Movement Authority forms. The overnight flight, which took 10 hours from RAF Nicosia (Cyprus) via RAF Luqa (Malta) to Blackbushe was one of the best I have ever had, the Handley Page Hermes being such a very comfortable aeroplane to fly in plus a full crew to look after just the two of us. Oh, happy days! Unfortunately with the comfort of the flight I forgot to note the aeroplane’s registration, but it would have been one of two Airwork Hermes IV’s:
G-AKFP (XD632)
G-ALDC (WZ840)
After all these years I would like to know which Airwork Hermes I flew in departing from RAF Nicosia at 1800hrs on 28 August 1956 for the flight via RAF Luqa (Malta), where I think we changed crews, to Blackbushe. The Blackbushe Tower Logs have long since disappeared so does anyone have any Airwork crew log books which could identify which of these two Airwork Hermes I flew in and also the names of any of the crew I flew with.
Many thanks in advance for any information you can give me.

[Narmitaj]

Mr Stenner - " F/O Waller" -

Yes, Tom Waller was my father, so I remember him. I didn't meet anyone else from those days as I wasn't born until a couple of years after he left and joined Kuwait Airways in 1956.

My parents lived in Frimley in those days, not far from Blackbushe.

[Skylion]

Despite its shortcomings the Hermes was an interesting aircraft. It was the first truly modern post war British airliner and when introduced on BOACs monopoly West African routes in 1950 replacing the noisy, low flying, unpressurised, barely soundproofed York it brought standards of comfort better than the Constellation and certainly quieter than the much longer lived Argonaut.Initially fitted out as an all First Class 40 seater (there was no Tourist Class in 1950)and later also as an all tourist 56 seater its cabin capacity was identical to the Argonaut as were broadly its sector times and schedules. It's range was 3,080 miles against the Argonauts 3,340 but that made made little practical difference on the African routes due to the stage lengths involved. The reliability of the Hercules was worse than the Merlin, but thanks to the wartime experience , mainly with the RAF , of BOACs ground engineers both were kept going as well s any piston engines on demanding long haul routes. The money saving use of the Halifax bomber wing gave problems with wing spar life as Handley Page had not envisaged this as usually being the limiting factor in longevity.
BOAC was never enthusiastic about the aircraft, partly because the arrival in 1948 of the Argonaut which worked straight from the box gave them a much easier solution to their fleet requirements. Had the Argonaut purchase been blocked on foreign exchange grounds a lot more efforst would probably have been put into making the Hermes work and the story could have been different.

[geoffmilner]

My Mother Ued To Fly With Your Father Capt Stenner.she Was A No 1 Air Hostess On Airwork Hermes,vikings And Later Viscounts For Bua.her Name Was Barbara Hey Then .mum Is Now 83 Yrs Of Age And Loves Chatting About Her Flying Days And Still Goes To The Bcal Reunions.she Was The No1 On The Hermes That Shot Off The Runway At Pay Lebar Airfield,singapore On The 29th Oct 1957 The Airwork Hermes Was G-aldo And I Have A Good Picture Of It No Down In The Ditch.it Was Repaired And Flown Back To Blackbushe And Burnt On The Firedump. Capt Winslow Was The Skipper At The Time.all The Best Geoff Milner

[WHBM]

Had the Argonaut purchase been blocked on foreign exchange grounds
The whole Argonaut programme was done for foreign exchange reasons anyway. Canada was happy to be paid in Sterling, and the Canadian content of the BOAC fleet (airframe) was balanced by the UK content of the Trans-Canada/Canadian Pacific/RCAF Argonauts (engines and many ancillaries). Douglas got some benefit as well by selling Canadair the DC-4 airframe tooling when production of this was ending in favour of the DC-6.

[tornadoken]

On 15/12/1944 UK new Ministry of Civil Aviation ordered 79 Avro 689 Tudor II for the Kangaroo Route - (to be) BOAC, Qantas, S.African A/W - with the intent for a Mark II with Theseus. No Canucks as Canadian Vickers (since 1927 wholly independent of UK Vickers) took a licence to enhance DC-4 with (to be DC-6-derived) pressurisation and Merlin; Co. nationalised 11/11/44; 10% ownership/from 19/9/46 agreement, on 25/1/47 purchase of a controlling stake by (US) Electric Boat Co. C-4M first flight 15/7/46, orders assigned by Can.Govt. for RCAF and TCA; private CPAL chose to join in, despite surplus C-54s. On the same day as C-4M f/f, US passed the (US/UK) Financial & Trade Agreement (Reconstruction Loan) - the one UK extinguished in May,2006. Canada supplemented that with C$0.6Bn.

RR was giving its mind to turbines, not to inserting longevity in Merlin: Hives' attention was secured by threat of DC-6's R-2800 (flew in XC-112A, 15/2/46; later fitted to one C-5), and he chose to retain (to be) 70 ship-sets of business by committing to cost guarantees that (Pugh/Magic of a Name: ) later bit him on the leg. It had been so much easier just to ship 32,377 from Derby, 26,065/Crewe, 23,647/Glasgow. On 11/4/47 he lost all BOAC business on any Tudor (Oz and SA long since gone). On 14/4/47 TCA put C-4M Transatlantic; on 19/3/47 BOAC was obliged to "order" 25 HP.81 Hermes 4 to keep HP going until the Medium Bomber was resolved (design ITP 19/11/47, to be Victor 1).

RAF, in dismay, had to return its 22 C-54D in March,1946, lumbered with Yorks, then Hastings. EveryBrit knew that piston bomber-variants had no hope v.C-54/C-69. BOAC by strategem and guile acquired some £-L-049 and B.377; on 21/7/48 some of the C$ Reconstruction Loan was applied to an order, early, painlessly filled, for 22 C-4, to be flown joyously, 1949 to 1960! Hermes was with BOAC, painfully, 1950-52 (again briefly, post-Comet 1, in 1954), its routes taken up by C-4M.

So: Q: why did newcomer Canadair/Electric Boat succeed where 1909-origin HP and Avro failed? A: tried harder. HP's cable address was Bomber, London.

[Stenner153]

Thanks for the reply. I can remember a few of the Hosties from 1948-57/58ish, I'm certain to have met your mother, Father was with Caledonian from 1963- 1970 flying Britannias, was your mother with them at that time. Regards. Lester.

[jlovelo]

G-ALDB with Airwork was piloted by my dad Colin Lovelock carrying troops to the Suez in 1952 when an outer prop broke up also smashing the inner engine. He brought it down at night in a field at Pithiviers in France and everyone got out with only a few minor injuries before the aircraft was destroyed by fire.

[76fan]

Great to have an old and interesting thread opened up again Jlovelo.

[GAZIN]

Here is a photo that I acquired some years ago. I am not certain of it's origin, but it was apparently taken aboard G-ALDM, whilst operating a Britavia flight from Aden to Nairobi.
Doesn't look as if the air-conditioning was much good!

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/Jetmech_photos/G-ALDM_zpsbu90mfwx.jpg (http://s457.photobucket.com/user/Jetmech_photos/media/G-ALDM_zpsbu90mfwx.jpg.html)

[LTNman]

What's that sitting in the middle just above their heads that looks like a drone?

[India Four Two]

That's an "upside-down" compass with a mirror (angled towards the captain), that allowed you to read it.

[GAZIN]

According to a flight article in 1948, the Hermes IV was fitted with a P12 compass in that position.

[RedhillPhil]

Returned home from Cyprus in August 1954 aged four. Was told much later that it was in a Hermes and we landed at Blackbushe.

[Mr Oleo Strut]

Went out in Airwork Hermes G-ALDU? in 1953 from Blackbushe to Nairobi, aged 11. Came back in Britavia Hermes G-ALDX in 1956, via Malta, El Adem, Khartoum and Entebbe. An old bone-shaker, rearward-facing seats, quite noisy but good views as we never got very high. Remember could see camels in the desert. Much later I was a Handley Page apprentice, and much, much later in the UK Customs went on board many a Dart Herald. Thanks for stimulating the memories of long ago, TonyTech, and for your generous words about the Hermes.
PS: The Hermes was not the only prop aircraft that BOAC got rid of in quantity. I remember lines of redundant BOAC Argonauts at LHR in the 60s when I worked there. I used to wonder what happened to them. Excuse thread drift: it was at LHR at that time that I first heard stereo individual piped music onboard a Pan Am 707 - it was fabulous!

[Planemike]

Mr OS.........

BOAC operated 22 Canadair C4 Argonauts. Two were lost in service. The remainder were sold to a variety of operators including Aden Airways, East African Airways, Royal Rhodesian Air Force, Overseas Aviation and Derby Airways (later British Midland).

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

I remember I flew from Manston on Jan.21st 1961 in a Hermes to Germany. (Gutersloh or Wildenrath?)

Vague memories of who would have operated this at the time.
With all the wealth of information so far on this thread, I would welcome any info. about this flight, Operator and destination airfield etc.

It was only my second time flying, first being in an Anson at Cosford in 1957 during Boy Entrant training.
With thanks for any replies.
OPF

[GAZIN]

OPF. By the start of 1961 the largest Hermes fleet belonged to Silver City Airways and was based at Manston. So it was probably one of their aircraft. If I remember correctly the only other operator of the Hermes in 1961 was Air Safaris.

[LTNman]

In the colours of MEA seen here at Bovingdon

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c275/ksmithltn/IMG_0001%202_zpsek3e6uei.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/ksmithltn/media/IMG_0001%202_zpsek3e6uei.jpg.html)

[WHBM]

Above is one of two aircraft MEA leased and had operated by Skyways over three months in summer 1955. Obviously a long enough lease to warrant a (simplistic) repaint and putting on the Lebanese register. It was done while waiting for two Viscounts leased under a longer term arrangement from Hunting-Clan to be prepared.

[tubby linton]

Does anybody have a list of the BOAC aircraft and their corresponding names? I am looking for the registration of R.M.A Honor.

[DH106]

G-ALDY according to "Piston Engine Airliner Production List"

[tubby linton]

Many thanks for that.Would you be able to tell me where it was scrapped?

[Airbanda]

Some information via G INFO:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-ALDY.pdf

Love the anglicised Beyrout.........

[fauteuil volant]

According to Jackson:

- to Skyways, Bovingdon, 09.54
- to MEA as OD-ACC, 06.55 (see photo in earlier post)
- restored to Skyways 10.55
- wfu at Stansted 12.58

As it was not deleted from the British civil register until 05.63, one assumes that it suffered a long, lingering demise at Stansted over nearly a five year period.

[tubby linton]

I wonder if HP made any money building them and how many they thought that they would sell? I also wonder if any parts of the design were incorporated into the Herald?

[fauteuil volant]

I also wonder if any parts of the design were incorporated into the Herald?I doubt it, since it was a product of Handley Page Reading and had its origins with Miles Aircraft and the M.73 project, which was the lineal descendant of the Miles Marathon.

[DH106]

Many thanks for that.Would you be able to tell me where it was scrapped?
Yes, as others have said - scrapped at Stansted (no date given)

[tornadoken]

#77 tubby Govt. funded Interim Civil Lincoln/Civil Halifax on 4th and 5th April, 1944. On 15/12/44 UK Govt ordered 79 Avro Tudor II for the Kangaroo Route Team. HP persevered with various iterations of (to be Hermes IV) and received RAF order for 100 Hastings, 9/45. By 4/46 both Canada and Australia had taken Tudor II production licences. All lapsed with BOAC's 11/4/47 rejection of any Tudor (BSAAC did take Mk.IV...and was destroyed by them). In a flurry, Govt. ordered 25 Hermes IV for BOAC, 19/3/47, then 25 C-4M 21/7/48...and there's the rub. DC-4. Pratt R2000. Dependable Engines (it took awhile for RR to match Merlin to civil operation).

In 1949 BOAC tried very hard to refuse delivery of Hermes IV: heavy, uneconomic: “this tough attitude (surprised &) disappointed” Sir Fred. HP C.H.Barnes, HP A/c, Putnam, 1976, P466. They were very briefly operated, brought back in a flurry after grounding of Comet 1, then unloaded onto troopers and tramps. Even in 1945 Peter Masefield, working for Beaverbrook, demonstrated on his slide rule that no Tudor or Hermes could breakeven in airline operation.

When Ministers funded these Interims they did not expect to sell many - virtues of Constellation and DC-4 were becoming evident. They were funded: a) to give (whatever British Civil Air Transport industry might emerge) something, $-sparing;
and b) to occupy our Heavy firms until they could produce turbine-powered "supremes".

[tubby linton]

It all sounds very like British Rail continuing to build steam engines after nationalisation, many of which had working lives measured in single digits.

[Stenner153]

G-ALDB with Airwork was piloted by my dad Colin Lovelock carrying troops to the Suez in 1952 when an outer prop broke up also smashing the inner engine. He brought it down at night in a field at Pithiviers in France and everyone got out with only a few minor injuries before the aircraft was destroyed by fire.


Met your father a few times in the offices at Blackbushe.

[bobdh478]

Good Morning,
Just a small diversion. There are a couple of Hermes loses that I would think most posters are probably aware of. Whilst still with BOAC, I think it was G-ALDN, crashed in west Africa in 1952, after a rather odd detour! Then there was the accident at Stanstead in 1958 with a Captain named Rayment.... who was unrelated to the BEA Rayment who was in the Elizabethan Munich crash 3 or 4 months before! Odd coincidence.... from memory.. both ex RAF, Kenneth Gordon and Gordon.

[David Rayment]

The Stanstead crash was on April 1st 1958, The pilot was Capt G D Rayment. My Mother got a number of letters of condolance after the Munich Elizebethan crash, little knowing the future.

David Rayment

[bobdh478]

The Stanstead crash was on April 1st 1958, The pilot was Capt G D Rayment. My Mother got a number of letters of condolance after the Munich Elizebethan crash, little knowing the future.

David Rayment
Hello David, that's extremely eerie. As I remember there were quite a few similarities and coincidences.

[Stenner153]

Met your father a few times at Blackbushe.

[Diverskii]

Nice to see the old Hermes thread resurrected. The RAeS interviews with D.P. Davies have an interesting section on the Hermes (about 5 mins in to the Comet/707/Britannia episode).

He said it "flew like the Forth Bridge, it was terribly heavy". He recounts the story of doing engine out testing at Boscombe Down and after 3 circuits he had to have a rest as flying the test was so exhausting. He puts it down to the flying controls not being sufficiently balanced - huge aileron/elevator loads and rudder loads that were right up to the limits of the requirements.

[Planemike]

The Stanstead crash was on April 1st 1958, The pilot was Capt G D Rayment. My Mother got a number of letters of condolance after the Munich Elizebethan crash, little knowing the future.

David Rayment
Stansted....

[bean]

Stansted....
Please let's not be pedantic
Captain Rayment was his father