BHX Delays

[tocamak]

According to local BBC there has been lots of delays from BHX this morning. Now while I can see some white stuff outside it didn't seem enough to cause much disruption or is there something else giving problems.

[INKJET]

Nothing out of EMA until after eight this morning, God help us if this winter becomes the first proper winter (readers under 25 will need to google winter of 47,63 or 85) for some years.

It would be ironic to see a foot of snow and Landrover group on a two day week!!!

[egnxema]

Has there been an ATC probleminthe Midlands area?

No flights left BHX or EMA until after 0800 this morning and it's not the snow - as there is not a flake of it in Castle Donington.

Any info Almost Prof???

[Betablockeruk]

"Adverse weather conditions" stated on BBC Travel. :confused:

Have they used Gatwick's anti-freeze supply? :}

[egnxema]

What was so different about the weather last night compared to the past week - it has been -1'c and lower every night for the past week.

[AviationNE]

Dont know how true but it has been said once snow was cleared from birmingham. De icing fluid then froze. Some people saying they put water down but cant see that being true.

[Musket90]

Last night and this morning much of the Midlands & SE UK experienced temps well below freezing first part of the night, then it rose to just above freezing with cloud cover and light wet snow, then dropped below freezing again. Difficult conditions for any airport.

[angels]

Difficult conditions for any airport.

I think you're being a bit too kind. These weather conditions were forecast and let's face it, we're not exactly talking apocalyptic here!

The fact is, a light dusting of snow seems to catch everyone on the hop in Blighty.

[AltFlaps]

Rumours rife this morning in Birmingham that airfield operations mistakenly applied weed killer to the runway in the early hours, instead of de-icing fluid, which froze over causing the runway to remain closed until 0830z !!

[JamesKirk]

BHX failed to learn the lessons from LGW a few weeks ago and a "weakened" de icing mixture was deployed last night, resulting in the closure of the runway for 4 hrs this morning & quite a few Red faces.:rolleyes:
Topped with that is the light smattering of white stuff that would have caused the antique snow clearence equipment at BHX a problem anyway if not for the de-icing cock up.
Will they never learn??:ugh::ugh:

[al446]

Posted on Flight Deck Rumours & News that they put down weed killer instead of de-icing. Only a rumour so far but it is what PPRune's for.

[angels]

Thread already going on this in Airports.

[AltFlaps]

We also heard from handling and company operations that airfield ops sprayed weed killer instead of de-icing fluid early this morning ...

Brum usually has a major de-ice cockup or two every year !

[call100]

As usual a bunch of idiots posting...Surprise Surprise....No weed killer laid. No weakened fluid....
No mistakes
Anti-icing done in plenty of time.
etc. etc. etc.
Now lets put all that silly stuff to bed eh?

Nature won....again and probably will in the future...

I blame the Ecomaniacs......The old de-icing fluid was great, but apparently destroyed the environment?????

[groundhogbhx]

call100, that is very strange because we were told that it was weed killer iso antifreeze. I don't think the FR and BE that were sat on the taxiways of T2 with engines running for 20 odd minutes were very happy about it. The FR captain was even less impressed when he got caught in the snow shower that came through just after everyone was cleared to go and had to wait for deicing for the second time this morning, as well as more fuel to make up for the stuff he wasted first time he pushed. I'm sure MOL has already been on the phone asking for a refund:)

[Stopend]

Hate to upset someone, but if weed killer was put down the runway would probably still be solid sheet of ice at midday.

[tocamak]

Regardless of the weedkiller or not surely it's a bit pathetic that a light dusting of snow with a sharp frost should cause so much delay. If it had been a big surprise then that's one thing but it has hardly been ISA+ the last few days.

[call100]

groundhogbhx.
How is it strange???
It's not true that either weed killer or a weakened solution was used ...It is not true that Anti Icing was done too late.
This is fact not rumour........:ugh:

[JamesKirk]

Call100 If the de-icing was done too late, then is someone getting thier arse kicked for it, the -8 temperatures did'nt exactly sneak up on the airfield & leap on the runway did they? they were forecast even showing i believe on the BHX Fids system?

The re-opening was a shambles as well, ATC advise a 0900 re-open so airlines decide to offload passengers then at 0810 its "were open again" all the FR's already waiting on the taxiways, how much of MOL's call to Paul Kehoe was that due too!!

By the way its forecast poss Snow/Snow rain (why cant they just say sleet?) between 0200 & 0800 tommorrow morning, any chance of someone getting it right this time?:rolleyes:

[brumboy]

De-icing was not done too late, it didn't work!
ATC advised a 09.00 opening because that was the time the airport published in a NOTAM.
Further de-icing was carried out with the 'proper stuff' and the runway opened at 08.15.

[brumboy]

Sleet doesn't 'exist', it's Met name is rain and snow.

[groundhogbhx]

call100 Maybe what they told you was the official line and what they told us was what really happened, without recording equipment on our phones we will never know:(

[AirportsEd]

So what type of anti-icing fluid was it that failed, and what was the "proper stuff" that actually did the job? :confused:

[call100]

JamesKirkCall100 If the de-icing was done too late, then is someone getting thier arse kicked for it, the -8 temperatures did'nt exactly sneak up on the airfield & leap on the runway did they? they were forecast even showing i believe on the BHX Fids system?Read the post again.....It was not done too late......It was started at 2200.
groundhogbhxcall100 Maybe what they told you was the official line and what they told us was what really happened, without recording equipment on our phones we will never knowhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gifI am not relying on what I was told........We laid it......It's the official line because it's the truth.......We don't have any access to weed killer or weakened fluid. You don't change the fluid for Anti-Ice and De-ice just the flow rate.
Now instead of all of you guessing and making things up. (I know its more fun but hey!...) lets put this to bed.
You are forgetting the people who actually worked solidly all night to try and keep it at bay. No one, and I mean No one who has worked winter ops on an airfield can claim 100% success rate. It's also not as simple as just going by the temperature....As someone else stated...You only remember the unsuccessful ops. Nice view from your warm offices.

[AirportsEd]

Hi call100
Agree that nobody involved in anti/de-icing work can claim a 100% success rate, but (from someone who was a hands on - no warm office - de-icing person 20 years ago), you may be able to provide info that will enable others to avoid similar problems in the future. So, what was make/specific type of liquid used that was unfortunately defeated by nature? I presume there is a manufacturer's name and specification on the drum?
Was there one or two applications?
Do you know what the minimum temperature experienced that night/morning was?

[RED WINGS]

I just find it strange that airports with real winter weather but similar in climate to the UK never seem to have a problem. FRA for example only ever seems to close for 20 mins a time in heavy snow, whilst a fleet of ploughs clear all 3 runways then continue around miles of taxiways! Britain seems to struggle with any unusual weather, remember the wrong type of leaves on the railways fiasco a few years back?

[call100]

AirportsEd
It's not kept in drums we have large storage tanks. I don't think it would be advantageous to give the make. Suffice to say my own opinion is that since the Eco squad got involved everything is less effective.
there was more than one application,
I think the minimum temp was -7 but I don't have any figures in front of me. However, I don't believe the temperature is the only factor when this sort of thing happens. The snow (Little as it was) settles on the top of the de-icing fluid the temps then freeze that and things go down hill from there on. It doesn't matter how much we debrief it. Nature won. Scientists will give you exact reasons for what happens but I doubt some on here would be satisfied.

RED WINGS
I think that pure snow is a different case. It is also dependent on the type of snow etc. etc etc. . I think you will also find that manpower and equipment investment in Europe may give them the edge......Just remember the people fighting to keep airports open. People should be less eager to assume that they made a mistake....Oh Yes, getting the facts would help...:ugh:

[RED WINGS]

No assumption, just commenting! Although your spot on with the equipment, the germans sure do know how to do everything to an excellent standard! No silly last minute stand changes to please the inbound ryan air either ;)

[groundhogbhx]

What warm office? I don't call running around for 3 hours trying to keep 5 Ryanair's happy very warm, or did I miss something:eek:

[AirportsEd]

Hi Call100,
Thanks for that - makes me wonder if the use of 'eco' products is sustainable in these situations.

[Stopend]

AirportsEd
Most environmentally friendly runway de-icing fluids are potassium acetate based. Usually with a thickener added to improve holdover time.
There are also Anhydrous sodium acetate based solid pellets used on some airfields, often pre-wetted with fluid as they are dispensed to make them stick to the surface. (All work better when put down ahead of the weather, as I believe they were that night).

All the new fluids seem much thinner than the glycol based stuff of old, that killed fish 10 miles down stream of any airfield and some had cosh sheets as long as your arm! So were not very nice to people handling it either. Good stuff because it would often stand up to snow fall longer than the new stuff but was not a nice substance at all!

That said, ALL fluids old and new will only hold out for so long, they will all end up saturated and ineffective sooner or later. Adding more fluid at the appropriate time can sometimes help and keep the runway open but eventually closing the runway and sweeping it may be the only option, and you can often get to this point very quickly and with little warning.

Having spent some time dealing with snow, I have often found that no two situations are the same. Time of day / night rate and time of snow fall, ground, surface air temperatures, wind speed and direction. And yes type of snow, all come into play. There is no magic text book / crystal ball and of course there will always be a Legion of experts out there after the event (witness the Fiction Factory above, more to these guys later).

To the guy in charge and the ops people running around that night you probably did the best you could with the situation the weather served up! Thanks guys. Aviation safety people being what they are if lessons can be learnt they will be and improved next time where they can be.:D

To the agricultural brigade above, most of who seem to be aircraft de-icing experts. It is worth noting that it is common practice to mix aircraft de-icing fluid with water (75/25 fluid water mix is common) warm it up a bit any spray it all over. Now this may be fine and perfectly safe for an aircraft which only needs a limited hold over time but, as a runway de-icing person, mixing (expensive) fluids with water is something we never do, scares the hell out of me, but I’m pretty sure its safe because the pilots / airlines seem happy enough to taxi out and take off with it. Although I have heard many crews request a repeat application when delayed on departure. Perhaps if you served the fluid up neat it may stay active longer. But perhaps it’s a little more complex than that, I’m sure you guys know what your doing.

Oh yes and re equipment, the primary kit at BHX is only a few years old, yes some of the back up stuff is older, but all probably younger than much of the aircraft handling kit I've seen lately new paint or not

.

[luoto]

Maybe the answer is to use some of the allegedly long-term jobless (who are not genuinely ill) and give them shovels and instructions that if the shovel is not glowing with snow clearing activity then all their social benefits will disappear sharpish. Of course the genuine workless and ill won't be affected but those who are happy to claim and maybe enjoy the black economy's benefits at the same time can earn their extra spending money.
Genuine work seekers won't mind some "social work" when not searching for work.