Helicopters shooting down aircraft

[LittleMo]

I was just reading an article by Prof. Richard Wood called FIREFORCE and came across an account of a Rhodesian Airforce Alouette III, configured as a gunship or 'K-Car', flown by Charles Goatley, with Beaver Shaw manning the 20mm cannon, which had the distinction of shooting down a Botswana Defence Force Islander on 9 August 1979. This happened when Goatley was covering a recovery by helicopters of troops from an external operation against a Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) base at Francistown.

Are there any other accounts of choppers shooting down aircraft? I know some attack helicopters can carry air to air missiles but how real is this capability ?

Mo:ok:

[taxydual]

Tom Clancy 'did' it in one of his books. OK, that was fictional.....or was it? I seem to recall Stingers being attached to RW and having some successes against FW. I cannot for the life of me remember where I read/saw the report.

[CirrusF]

The French Air Force had/have(?) a Lynx configured for air to air role to defend Paris against light aircraft suicide attacks in 2000ish, after the DGSE got wind of a plan by Islamic to attack the Eiffel tower (yes, they did tell the US about the plan). Presumably they decided that a fast and manouvrable helicopter would potentially be more reactive and effective against a light aircraft than a Mirage.

[Woff1965]

I recall a report of an Iraqi Hind downing an Iranian F4 in the Iran-Iraq war in the early/mid 80's.

I have no idea whether it really happened though.

[West Coast]

U.S.M.C. AH-1W Sea Cobra Helicopter [Exercise Thalay Thai ‘89] (http://www.aircav.com/cobra/ahgal09/ah1w-037.html)

[TB6]

Apologies if I'm intruding but this example is out there
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol52no2/iac/an-air-combat-first.html

[Evalu8ter]

The Iraqi claim of an F4 shootdown is notorious; the claim was that they used an AT-6 against the F4. The Iraqis and Russain advisors even held a party to commemorate the event. Given the crossing target performance of the AT-6 this does seem an audacious claim, though a number of helo v helo engagements during the Iran/Iraq war did use ATGM (esp TOW) to good effect. Unsurprisingly, the Iranian side refuse to confirm the F4 loss and they counter claim 3 MiG-21 kills via the 20mm cannon on the Sea Cobra.

The big factor missing from the Iran/Iraq war was an IR AAM mounted on a helo (the Iranians mounted an AIM-9 on a Sea Cobra but seemingly never deplyed it). The A-A capability afforded by Stinger etc does make a suitably armed helo a much less attractive target; I do recall one TLT sortie where an AH in a fire position acquired a FJ on the radar, slaved the FLIR to it and would have had a possible shot if Stinger was fitted..cue lots of rumbling from the FJ community.

The bottom line is that a small degree of training can make a RW platform difficult for a FJ to successfully engage. For a high PK the other way a good AAM is required.

[Gainesy]

I've seen pictures of a USMC CH-53 shooting a Sidewinder sometime in the late 80s, don't know if it hit anything or even if it was just to test that launching was feasible, ie no target.

[Truckkie]

Was on the end of a few 'Red Air' low Pk kill claims on Red Flag a couple of years ago.

Claims of ATGW and cannon hits against low - flying C130:eek:

[mr fish]

on a related note RED AIR c130s had good hits on BLUE f15-f16s, with camera footage to rub it in.
BLUE guy slides up behind for nice, close gun kill and is lit up by a nice bright hand strobe from the herky ramp.
on debrief RED AIR remind fast guys they are supposed to be an12 CUBS and armed with a rear cannon!!!
red faces all round!!!

[chopper2004]

Cirrusf

The unit at Villacoublay outside Paris operates AS355 for that role. The Armee de l'Air doesn't and has never operated the Lynx only the Aeronavale in the French armed forces!

Btw back in the good old days of the Persian Gulf and Operation Prime Chance when the det of AH58D Warrior from 82nd replaced the TF160, the 58s were armed with Stinger. Rumour had that they engaged Iranian aircraft
according to Army Aviation by Hans
Halbertstadt published 1989 by Presidio books

[microlight AV8R]

There was an amusing photo in AirForces Monthly a while back, taken at a gathering at some continental airbase. The French had a Helicopter on display (Eurocopter Tiger?) which was apparently sporting a brace of AAMs.
Not to be outdone, the Belgians rigged up a dummy Sidewinder on the left hand weapons pylon of their A109. :cool:

[DB6]

I read a feature (Flypast?) recently about a civvy-crewed Huey shooting down a brace of An-2s in somewhere like Vietnam. The incident was hushed up as the Huey wasn't officially there, according to the story.

[Widger]

I have heard a first hand report of a navy Lynx locking up an F14 after a pass and then spending 10 minutes each evading the other. Observer's tracker ball was hot!

[West Coast]

Don't know what ROE (read: how many arms tied behind the back) but if it for real and that F14 wanted the helo dead, it would be dead quickly.

[TheWizard]

I read a feature (Flypast?) recently about a civvy-crewed Huey shooting down a brace of An-2s in somewhere like Vietnam. The incident was hushed up as the Huey wasn't officially there, according to the story.

I read that too.....six posts above yours!!:}:)

[DB6]

That's the very one! Same picture too, wasn't on the CIA website though......... do you think they know we know :eek:?

[Evalu8ter]

West Coast,
Afraid not old chap. As discovered by the Germans in WW2 a well flown helo at low level is a very hard target for guns. Does an F14 want to slow down for BFM against a helo, esp one with a M134/M3M in the door? No, because the helo will out-turn it all day long (or until the F14 runs out of gas or is chased off by a friendly CAP). So the F14 unloads and extends out for a heater shot, only to find that re-acquiring the helo either visually or on radar is a LOT harder than he/she thought. Assuming that the helo is acquired the Heater engagement depends a lot on the quality of the IR AAM, the background IR clutter and the IRCM/DAS/IRSS fitted to the helo. Tactics can also be employed to significantly reduce the PK of the IR shot. Against most western RW DAS you would need to be packing a mighty good IR AAM for a high PK shot. However, what of the mighty AWG-9 / AIM-54 combo? Agreed, against a non-RWR fitted platform flown by non-EW aware crews (as proved in the Iran/Iraq war) the RF shot is a potent weapon. However, most radars have their weaknesses and the AWG-9 is no different and it can be beaten by a combination of chaff, terrain masking and manoeuvre. Finally, does a FJ pilot want to use his best self defence weapon (IR AAM) or expensive long-arm (RF AAM) against a helo? Depends on the mission I guess. The Iraqi helos shot down during GW1 were downed by CAS ac with spare ordnance (LGB/Cannon) and they were tactically inept and technologically deficient.
Before you ask, I have done an awful lot of Helo v Fighter instruction and training against a variety of FJ ac, from Alfa Jet/Hawk to Typhoon/F15 and have proved that the right kit and training make a helo a very difficult target to kill, particularly in a short opportunistic engagement. Interestingly, one of the points I used to emphasise to my studes was to use the FJ pilot's natural overconfidence against them....see Mr Fish's comment for a perfect example!

[CirrusF]

Evalua8or, to extend that discourse, could you elaborate why the French have A2A Helicopter defence of Paris against light-aircraft threat, whereas UK has not (as far as I know)?

Presumably UK either does not regard light aircraft as a threat, or relies on FJ cover? Would FJ be able to reliably destroy a light aircraft intent on targeting a politically significant target in London, without casually endangering the public?

[iwalkedaway]

HMG won't afford it - until it might perhaps prove too late - meanwhile those Frenchmen will.

By the way, why is it 'helo' and not 'heli'? Does this stem from the misconception that the proper term is spelled 'helocopter'? Sorry - but it's always puzzled me.

[Airspeedintervention]

In a former life (seems like) as a US Army Cobra driver I recall a Red Flag we attended in which this capability was found to work quite well in certain circumstances. One of the biggest things that came out of all this was the fast-movers lack of understanding of our ability to take "off-axis" shots at them with our 20mm gattling gun. On the Cobra this weapon is capable of swiveling up to 110 degrees left or right of aircraft centerline. This capability was quite devasting in certain engagements. I know the Apache has this capability as well but I am not sure of the parameters as I turned down my chance to fly this aircraft in order to become a fixed wing whore. Additionally we discovered that F-16 targeting computers automatically dropped out anything that moved at less then thirty five knots. Using this to our advantage we were able to hover slowly and stealthly over roads and countryside to ingress/egress areas that had heavy air coverage.

[Chugalug2]

IWA:
Does this stem from the misconception that the proper term is spelled 'helocopter'?

In the 60's AP129 spelt it "heliopter", but that was later amended to "hicopleter"!

[Evalu8ter]

CirrusF,
My guess would be the FW community saying "We kill stuff" so send a fighter to do a fighters job. More likely, it's the RAF not wanting the AH64 to move onto yet more RAF turf.

From a tactics point of view, a helo is, IMHO, not the best platform to go after a light ac due to the lack of overtake if the intercept geometry isn't good. Much better would be a Tucano/PC-9 style ac, or, possibly ideal, would be an armed Agusta-Bell 609.

As Roust (sp?) proved, a light ac is a very difficult target to find and prosecute; they inherently have a low RCS and low IR signature so are ill suited to intercept by most FJ. However, if it can find it, a Typhoon-style would have no problems performing a VID / gun engagement as it is much more comfortable in the low speed regime than, say, a Tornado F3.

[CirrusF]

Given that Paris has only one globally significant political target for a light aircraft suicide attack (The Eiffel Tower) whereas London has several (eg Buck Pal, Houses of Parliament, MI6 HQ, London Eye), it does seem odd to me that UK has not adopted an overt, dedicated defence against such a relatively easy attack (far easier than 911) which would nevertheless still have significant political impact.

I expect there are covert defences, but they would only reveal themselves once the political statement has already been deliivered (even if the attack itself fails),

[Double Zero]

"The Germans" - in WWII - found helo's hard targets ?

Even with Hanna Reich's efforts, I should have thought the hardest thing was rarity, and I would have thought it would only take a second, low speed attack - such 'helo's were not exactly gunships able to fire back or even dodge with agility - so the most dangerous part would presumably be the 'never do' second run with AAA prepared, the 'helo' being pretty much a decoy !

As to covert defence of the realm, hell yes; I know of a Cessna 172 armed with a 400mm lens sent up to inspect a bogey approaching Windsor about the first day we were allowed to fly after 9/11.

Unfortunately the PA28 in the sights had retractable gear, so just cruised away from the clapped out 172 despite the best efforts of the pilot, 'vectored' by ATC !

The PA28 was just lost or stupid - I expect something nasty & pointy would have appeared very shortly afterwards courtesy of a Tornado or Rapier if he hadn't turned away ( probably wouldn't have hit him until running out of rounds, but might have frightened him into a heart attack seems the best bet ).

The aircrew were all for putting an 'interceptor' zap on the 172, but the boss, an a******le at all times, salesman 1, airman 0, vetoed it.

[XR219]

From a tactics point of view, a helo is, IMHO, not the best platform to go after a light ac due to the lack of overtake if the intercept geometry isn't good. Much better would be a Tucano/PC-9 style ac

Hmmm... something you could scramble quickly, highly manoeverable, with an air-to-air capability and a good turn of speed? How about, say, a Spitfire? Based somewhere convenient for the capital of course... maybe Biggin Hill? :)

[Evalu8ter]

XR219, Capital idea - why not have a control centre at, oh I don't know, Northolt?

Double Zero,
Google Flettner 282, Flettner 265 and Drache. The Germans had a number of operational helicopter types in WW2 and conducted trials between Flettners and Me109s/FW190s to assess vulnerability. Which they discovered was surprisingly low when the RW were well flown at low level. The operational use of the Drache over the Eastern front was also surprisingly successful.

[turboshaft]

I was just reading an article by Prof. Richard Wood called FIREFORCE and came across an account of a Rhodesian Airforce Alouette III, configured as a gunship or 'K-Car', flown by Charles Goatley, with Beaver Shaw manning the 20mm cannon, which had the distinction of shooting down a Botswana Defence Force Islander on 9 August 1979.

Ah, the 1970s: when men were real men, women were real women, and outsized cab-mounted 20mm cannon were real outsized cab-mounted 20mm cannon... :E

http://www.turboshafts.com/images/alouette_canon.jpg

[harrogate]

Israeli choppers have brought down civvie planes 'invading' their airspace from Lebanon before. I remember reading about one a few years ago. They downed the plane over one of their own Navy bases, and I think it injured a few folks on the ground.

[CYCLONE 7]

i was involved in the air to air contact with chas goatley flying into botswana when we were jumped by the bdf.
i am about to publish a book on the incident, which should come out later this year called choppertech
see my blog www.choppertech.*************

[Greek God]

Incident Circa 1978 - DOB as per profile 2 Nov 1980 = minus 2years old?

[wz662]

A Sikorsky Hoverfly I testing a banner towing system !! by the AFEE at RAF Beaulieu had its cable hit by a Spitfire. The helicopter survived, the Spit was Cat 5 so that must count as a kill surely.

[bast0n]

Have you seen the Wessex 5 ,Fighter All Weather variant downing a Sea Harrier? Does this count?:)

[Groundaphobic]

Sure....helicopters were shooting down fixed wing baddies all the time way back in the 80's.

What was it called? 'Airwolf' or something....no...wait a sec,......'Blue Thunder'!

Yep..........that was it.....I knew it would come back to me.