Is Cabair going to stay alive? [Archive]

Adios

2nd Jan 2009, 23:24

Instructor redundancies would lag any drop in enrollment by many months. If their 2008 courses were chocker, then they'd be halfway through 2009 before any drop in FI requirements starts to show up and probably closer to the end of 2009 before they'd need to make any FIs redundant. I don't know how full their 2008 courses were, but that is the best indicator as to when a drop in revenue and human resource requirements would lead to redundancies.

I don't think FTO's will drop prices, they will seek to contain and cut costs. When a business has money, particularly borrowed money, tied up in inventory, they drop prices to move it. We probably all got some nice Crimbo prezzies last week as a result. But FTO's don't have inventory, so staff redundancies become the cost containment technique of choice, but this lags any drop in sales by at least the length of ground school. Going to the wall only happens if sales revenue drops below the absolute break even point after staff is reduced to the bare minimum and cash is exhausted. Obviously, too much existing debt can accelerate failure while new financing or capital investment from deep pocketed owners can serve as effective life support to stave off failure until enrollment grows again.

Cabair has had a strong business for many years, so if their owners have not abused leverage, they could ride out a down cycle like they have before. Unless anyone has some solid sources indicating trouble, I'd chalk this up to unfounded rumours, particularly this early in a downturn. The fiscal soundness of an FTO merits very strong consideration by any wannabe though, not just in a down cycle, but in an upward one as well, so there is value in the topic even if Cabair is fine.

Half_Cuban

3rd Jan 2009, 17:44

Guys I've been in aviation for 10 years now, this problem of flight training organisations going bust is nothing new, just as WWW has said pay as you go is as important now as it's ever been.

Dont put yourselves in a situation where any training organisation has lots of your hard earned (or financed) cash in their bank account.

I trained modular and was never more than a few hundred quid in credit at any time.

If any company wants thousands of cash upfront, politely decline and say that your quite happy to keep your account in credit, and stick to your word, it's going to be tough times for FTO's and it's a bit of a buyers market just now (possible understatement).

For those of you training or looking for a job stick with it, I don't doubt you already know that the aviation market is very cyclical (7 years I was told during training and that has been the case in my experience) It will recover from bust to ..... well maybe not boom but it wil recover.

Regards

a797

3rd Jan 2009, 18:05

The only sensible strategy is to pay as go. No reason at all why you can't pay a £1,000 a day by instant debit card if need be. Then your exposure is minimal. If they offer an upfront payment discount tell them you want the discount but without the upfront requirement or your business goes to a competitor. Turning away turn over is something none of the FTO's are in a position to do right now.

Bloody good advice. Flight training is a buyers market right now, make the most of it.

Eurotraveller

3rd Jan 2009, 18:40

Apologies for the slight thread drift...

About this time last year when I was planning my CPL/IR training, I narrowed it down to two modular establishments in the UK located pretty close to each other, both quality schools with good equipment and instructors and good reputations.

When it came to talking money with the first school, they were quite insistant that they would require the full amount for the IR (in excess of £10k) up-front at the start of the course. It was made clear that this was not negotiable and that paying in installments was not an option.

The second school was happy for me to employ a 'pay as you go' philosophy; as long as I walked out of the door every day with my account in the black they were happy.

I was absolutely not prepared to give an FTO such a large amount of money up-front and so I went with the second school (and I was extremely happy with them as it goes). I put funds on account in chunks at a time and never had much money sitting on account for long periods, an arrangement I was much more comfortable with.

A year ago, the first school weren't prepared to budge on their policy of paying the whole amount up-front, even when I said that I would be forced to take my business elsewhere which I subsequently did. I wonder if this would still be the case now or whether there would be more room for leverage!

Groundloop

5th Jan 2009, 08:46

There is actually one FTO where your money is 100% protected - Western Australian Aviation College.

WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding. Then, if the insurance company were also to go bust, the Australian Government itself will refund the student or arrange for the student to complete the course elsewhere at the Aussie Govt. expense.

This system was introduced some time back after a number of educational establishments (not FTOs) went bust and a large number of overseas students lost a lot of money. Oz started to get a bad name, particularly in the Far East, so protect its market in OS students this scheme was introduced.

Of course, this does mean you have to go to Oz!!

n.dave

5th Jan 2009, 08:50

Sounds Good! Groundloop.

But I feel the pound exchange rate is not very favourable:\

n.dave

FAStoat

5th Jan 2009, 08:55

Is one Colin Edgar Heathcote still the majority owner of Cabair,with John Reid as General Manager??This brings back memories of the late 70s!!

Mikehotel152

5th Jan 2009, 08:59

One of the interesting aspects of paying as you go is that you appreciate the cost of each flight or sim session. Put it this way, if you give the FTO £1000 of your hard-borrowed cash by debit card just prior to a morning IR lesson, you're likely to be asked for more money just over 24 hours later once you land after your next lesson. That's how expensive flying training is! :{

On the same theme but paradoxically, there is a danger that by flashing your card every couple of days you don't actually keep track of the overall picture and find yourself looking at amazement at your depressing bank statement, suddenly realising that you've spent a vast amount more than you were originally quoted! :uhoh:

jez d

5th Jan 2009, 09:17

Flight training is a buyers market right now

A797, while this may be correct, what you are forgetting is that all of the UK's integrated FTOs conduct either a part or all of their flight training outside of the UK. With the GBP at such a low against the Euro and Dollar and still falling, these schools have already become as much as 30% less profitable for the off-shore part of their operations.

There never was, nor will there ever be a huge profit to be made in flight training, so I suspect that while schools will do everything in their power to get your business, the fact will remain that they simply will not be able to afford to discount current training rates by any significant degree. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't bargain, but the reality is that you may not gain as much as you might think.

jez

no sponsor

5th Jan 2009, 11:36

Only a fool will not pay-as-you-go in this climate - no matter what school and how flashy their advertising is in the back of Flight. It was probably 8 years ago when the last big school folded, leaving many without a licence and with no money. It is a strategy that you should apply throughout your training. The only time i had to pay upfront for each module was Bristol Ground School, but the amount was minimal (compared to the rest of the bills). In fact during my ME/CPL/IR my school let me go substantially in debit, once they got to know me. Otherwise, i would just settle up what i owed at the end of each flying week, so I was always sort of in debit.

2close

5th Jan 2009, 16:36

WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding

And why can't that be introduced in the UK as part of the FTO approvals process?

We have the ATOL bonding system regulated by the CAA so why couldn't a similar bonding scheme be introduced to FTOs?

Food for thought.

2close

12th Jan 2009, 20:35

Cabair already charge a Credit Card surcharge so that's nothing new.

Balticsea

19th Jan 2009, 12:41

Slackjack, what kind of an insurance your pal has? I've never heard about anything like that before :O I'm just sorting the finances for the course and as I'm coming from overseas, the current pound rate would encourage to pay everything in advance, so that sort of insurance would certainly give some peace of mind!

BoeingMEL

19th Jan 2009, 13:11

Protection from loss is assued when payments are made by credit card ... but IIRC, no such protection is afforded when payment is made by debit card. Are you sure WWW? Cheers anyway bm:eek:

BallisticBanana

24th Mar 2009, 20:49

I've been flying with Bedfordshire School of Flying - essentially the 'Private' arm of Cabair at Cranfield.

Apparently they've laid off quite a few commercial instructors, have sent back to the leasing company a lot of DA40s (not sure about the DA42s), and to cap it all off, they've just put their rental charges up from £120 ph to £160 ph on the DA40. Lovely!

Needless to say I (along with at least 2 that I know of) have moved to a different club/school.

Man_C_Flyer

25th Mar 2009, 02:53

I was told by my new school that Cabair are doing great, that they are investing in an intergrated course at Orlando Flight Training (where I am doing my PPL) and that all is fine and dandy! That was one of the selling points for the school, that they were good enough for Cabair so why not me! And apparently it is only the beginning of Cabairs Expansion into America! This is what I was told!

???

Tyneradar

25th Mar 2009, 20:19

I am just near the end of my training, with little experience of training schools, but I have quickly learned statments like 'cabairs expansion' is the constant type of rubbish which comes from the mouths of the heads at cranfield.

If you have a flybe or rbi sponsor you will be rushed through with red carpet, but failing that you will be treated worse than an RSPCA rescue animal. I sit week in week out waiting for aircraft.

Poor aircraft serviceability, lack of aircraft, bad tempered and shouting instructors, should have gone else where, or delayed my start. With my parents re-mortgaged and no hope of a job at the moment the rubbish that cabair keep coming out with saying train now and you will be ready for the upturn is bull. Train now and be completely uncurrent and out of practice for the upturn.

If I had my time again cabair would not have got my money.

henris protegei

26th Mar 2009, 22:20

hi m8 nice blog on cabair

i passed an assesment with them in august 08, deciding to delay my training till end 0f09/early 2010.
they hounded me for me to start in march and have sent multiple letters ever since to get me to start. they seem very keen but i amglad i have read your blog as it confirmed to me tat they are my last resort after several others after oxford.
hope all goes well.

roomey

28th Mar 2009, 16:36

Visit www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/) pay for a report on the company you want to check out and view filed accounts. FYI CABAIRS are alot better than most!

chrisbl

28th Mar 2009, 16:52

Whats at companies house is always well out od date.

flyboy1818

29th Mar 2009, 16:20

Cabair are a bit like Tescos, they pop up everywhere, over the last few years they have brought up a fair few establishments! I don't think they will go bust, but I think you may see some of the less profitable parts of the business vanish! Personally I don't like Cabair, never heard a good word about them, there sausage factory approach to flight training stinks if you ask me. I also hate the fact that they buy training rights at a number of airfields such as Elstree which means that an experienced private pilot cannot fly in the circuit! Madness!

787steve

28th Sep 2011, 17:46

Iv heard that cabair have gone bankrupt, can anyone confirm this and give more details?

Teddy Robinson

28th Sep 2011, 18:07

What was your source ?

Question 2 .. what are you doing popping up asking that question with one post to your name ?

Don't expect to be taken seriously here will you ?

G-ADAM

29th Sep 2011, 12:52

Hi Everyone,

I have heard a RUMOUR that Cabair have gone under this week! Can anyone shed any more light on this? Apparently a couple of guys tried to hire an aircraft at Biggin Hill but were told that the company had gone bust and therefore they couldn't take the aircraft.

I'm not sure whether it's just one site shutting down or whether it's all made up and people are scaremongering; either way, if anyone knows anything, please tell all!

I have heard it from two independent sources who both said that they were told yesterday.

(Previous two posts were not here when I posted this, apologies for the repetition!)

NicoPH

29th Sep 2011, 13:26

The Cabair London School of Flying in Elstree did shut abruptly yesterday. I was the last student to land. When I took off, the school was supposed to close by the end of october, and when I landed it was done. The AFISO had me taxi straight to maintenance hangar. I left with my student file under my arm.

I understand that the immediate closure might not be limited to PPL schools, i.e a larger part (all???) of Cabair might have stopped too. TBC. Any word from commercial students?

I'm somehow lucky I had just a very few flying hours left on my "PPL package" and that I was done with exams, as I'm not really betting on seeing my money again. We had learnt recently that Cabair PPL schools would stop, and I was joking that I would never do my CPL with them (if I ever do it, that is); sounds like I might not even have a choice in the matter anymore... :oh:

stevop21

29th Sep 2011, 13:32

I think all of the flying schools are closing as they are focusing on commercial training. Haven't heard anything about them going under though

tweetypie

29th Sep 2011, 13:49

Cabair is Closed; students being sent home from the USA, schools in the UK all closed and lots of people owed lots of money!!!

Cabair claim to be restructuring.....all they need is £1.8....any takers???

It's a shame for all the good people who are now out of work and the students who have lost money! History always seems to repeat itself......unfortunately.

The receiver apparently is being appointed..........watch this space!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

notlikethat

29th Sep 2011, 14:06

New school opening in the old Cabair building at Elstree.

Prophead

29th Sep 2011, 14:11

Thought they had just announced some kind of scheme with Flybe. Does this mean some people may have just outlaid rather large sums of cash?

MAVERICK#

29th Sep 2011, 15:22

Unfortunately one of the biggest flight schools in the UK have gone broke!!!

I wonder how a company that has been trading for years through all the other badtimes has now gone bust as the industry begins to pick up.

It seems the current management have taken there bonuses and run leaving all the students out of pocket!!!!

This industry has its share of gangsters and now Cabair!! join the ranks !!!!

Who will repay al those students who thought they were going to a reputable company the thousands owed!! At the current rate of a Intergrated course costing anywhere between 55 and 65k GBP depending on how hard you were willing to barter!!!

Well I hope that those that have taken the money can sleep easy on the big fluffy pillows stashed full of pound notes and us dollars!!!!!

:=

Lesson to be learned by all wannabes never pay up front but as you go along no matter what crap they give you in discount when they end up stealing all you parents hard earned money there is no discount for that!!!

:ugh:

skit_uk

29th Sep 2011, 15:48

News from the Cabair Integrated side. The flight school has closed for two weeks while the owners sort something out. All flying and Sim training stopped.

Not looking good

redED

29th Sep 2011, 16:26

News from the Cabair Integrated side. The flight school has closed for two weeks while the owners sort something out. All flying and Sim training stopped.

Not looking good

Couldn't find this on their website, got a link?

787steve

29th Sep 2011, 16:29

Why so defensive Teddy?!

Seems that i had a perfectly legitimate question!!!

Fact: All cabair students UK and USA are grounded.
Fact: Cabair has 2 weeks to restructure or face bankruptcy.

whosyerdaddy

29th Sep 2011, 16:33

Yes Teddy Robinson. You should apologise for that uncalled for remark. Men (or women) of few words are often to be taken far more seriously than the verbose.

skit_uk

29th Sep 2011, 16:36

There is no link for the news. All students were called to a meeting this morning. The schedule website is now blank.

Anunaki

29th Sep 2011, 17:00

Hello All,first post but been a follower of the forum for a while.
I can confirm that my buddies here in Florida were told to go home,which left the rest of us feeling a little nervous regarding what's about to happen.I spoke to one of the school administrators this morning and she "guarantees" that the OFT side is unaffected,the schedule still up for the rest of the week and everyone acted like business as usual.
So as a modular student,wish to send my support to those affected and hope that the situation turns out less damaging than what some of us predict.

UAV689

29th Sep 2011, 19:27

Thoughts with all the students and staff that will no doubt get royally shafted.

Suggest a group of you get to egtc and chain up a da42 as compensation

Not sure on the legalities of that...I know the big airports do it to jets, so why not little people to flying schools!

flyboyweeksy

29th Sep 2011, 19:38

I was in this gathering today at EGTC and am a relatively new student to the integrated programme. A month into the course and sitting AGK systems exam on Monday at extra cost. It is a horrible situation and I am truly hoping it gets resolved within the cabair umbrella or whatever, so I was told, new investors are very much on the horizon and are in talks as we speak/next week to try and come to a new agreement/group. The group is not in receivership, so please forgive me if I'm wrong as my business acumen is not great, but just accounts frozen by the bank(s). I hope a new investor(s) can be found to save the guys who have paid fully upfront and myself who have only paid in monthly instalments, either way, it will be much nicer to carry on and get the license we all dearly want. Fingers crossed and hope I get some good news in the coming days. I hope I don't sound blinkered but am optimistic and hope what is said is being sorted. All the best to all who is going through this tough stage, inclusive of staff. FBW

UAV689

29th Sep 2011, 20:04

Flyboy, cut your losses now and leave is my advice. Go across the road and go modular and save a packet.

I think a lot of airlines will probably be paying a close look at the so called ties cab air have, especially if new management come in, may as well go somewhere else and save money.

Also consider what happens if it goes belly up in 6 months, when you have started flying training, it will be harder to change to modular school then, as you won't have a ppl, another thing to consider

SBL

29th Sep 2011, 20:56

Spoke to an instructor at CBR EGHH, Business there as usual for the moment as they seem financially independent....
Otherwise only can echo the sorrys for other payees...

chrisaviator

29th Sep 2011, 21:04

Hi guys,

I don't like rumours as they tend to damage companies if they are not true, but considering what I have heard from other students, does anyone actually have any hard evidence of what is going on and how it will effect the Bournemouth Side EPTA?

Got to finish my IR (5 hours or so left) and this is not helping things!

sam92

29th Sep 2011, 21:06

Any idea how this will effect ATPL students on Modular courses at either Cranfield or Bournemouth ?

SBL

29th Sep 2011, 21:25

Hey chris,
Read my above post, for now EPTA ops are biz as usual...best to check with your instructor in the morning tho.
Regards
S, who enjoyed a recent spell there...

Alex Whittingham

29th Sep 2011, 21:43

If Cabair fail, and I understand that it is not yet certain, Bristol will take on whatever students we can (by this I mean if the CAA agree) free of charge so they can complete their exams.

Taylor_04

29th Sep 2011, 22:27

I was unsuccessful at Stage 2 of the Flybe Self Sponsored Programme which was run by Cabair, if this is true i'm thankful i didn't get in. Good luck to any students (and staff) who may be affected by this.

B.I.G.Nick

29th Sep 2011, 22:29

Anyone know the latest situation at EPTA in Bournemouth?? I had a message from a friend in Bournemouth today saying all cabair planes there had been grounded until further notice??

andyfielding

29th Sep 2011, 22:33

Alex your a credit to bristol! May see you shortly!

waco

30th Sep 2011, 02:24

IF it indeed turns out to be the case that Cabair has stopped operating, may I offer my sincere condolances to the staff and the students.

It must be a very difficult time for you all and I hope a happy ending is just around the corner.

However.......have a think. One of the UK's biggest and long standing flight school is having problems....and what does that tell you.

LH are trying to sell off bmi, who knows if they will survive. It does not look good for them.

TCX are reducing fleet size and the IT market is in decline.

Air Berlin are reducing there fleet.

Europe and the United States rocking on the precipce of recession or much worse. A planned forfit by the Greeks is begining to look a certanty.

In my humble opinion, dont spend another penny on flight training. There will not be any jobs....

The very very best of luck to all those possibly effected. and most of all, best of luck to cabair. I pray this is all sorted out and soon for you all.

And when you get those licences, even more look to you finding a job. You are really going to neded it.

2close

30th Sep 2011, 08:27

Look at the costs involved in running a training fleet.

The certification costs alone (as imposed by EASA) are preposterous; these are also felt by the maintenance companies, which have to pass them on to the end user.

Then look at the costs of fuel and staff wages.

Admittedly, Cabair ran (past tense!) Diamond aircraft using Jet-A but following the demise of Thielert and the engine warranties, the cost of maintaining those engines shot up.

To stay competitive you have to charge as little as possible.

I'm sure there will be more to this than meets the eye but am I really surprised this has happened? :(

skit_uk

30th Sep 2011, 09:32

At Cranfield on the ATPL side things were looking up, by all accounts student numbers were much bigger, the aftercare was much improved with FL500 taking care of that, and a 737 sim at Cranebank was being phased in for the JOC/MCC training not to mention the Ipad's for groundschool. There were plans to improve the facilities as well.
It looked to me that under the new ownership things were really starting to look much better so I really hope that this is indeed just a blip. I can imagine Flybe have a vested interest in not seeing Cabair go under and I wouldnt be suprised if the integrated ATPL part of Cabair are saved somehow but the rest of cabair broken up. How this would work in reality I dont know, must be a bit of a financial nightmare.

sarpanch

30th Sep 2011, 09:50

I was down at cranfield yesterday morning. I was meant to take my inital assessment but when I got there I was told to take a seat. About 20 minutes later, a staff member came up to me and said that no one was available to carry out the test and that I shall be contacted by cabair to re-arrange and that they were sorry about the cancellation.

The interesting part is that when I got there, the current ground school cadets were outside talking about bankrupcy and who would take over their contracts.

Now I only heard part of the conversation so it may not have been about cabair.

mad_jock

30th Sep 2011, 10:30

Must admit my alarm bells were tinkling when Cabair wasn't included in the list of schools for the BA cadets scheme.

skit_uk

30th Sep 2011, 10:35

It's admirable that other flying schools are offering to help. It shows the best of the aviation industry.

I will try and distribute both your messages (Bristol, Aeros) via the various channels. I.e. facebook groups.

Although it's not yet clear exactly what is happening at Cabair at this moment in time.

Graham@IDC

30th Sep 2011, 14:21

The message for the moment - at least for those in the ground school phase is don't panic.

Continue using Padpilot and study at home until the situation is resolved. The system is designed for distance learning as well as the classroom. Take the opportunity for a couple of weeks of "self study" in comfortable surroundings.

If you wish to have free access to the Padpilot IMRS system so that you can take progress tests and continue with your supervised studies then please contact Jill on 01452 728 100 ([email protected]). We can have you up and running on the system within the hour.

Once Cabair are back in operations we'll simply transfer your test results back to them so that you can continue as normal.

Graham Cownie
Managing Director, Padpilot

flyboyweeksy

30th Sep 2011, 14:57

If you check my post earlier, I think you'll find is an accurate account of the situation at cabair. Was back there today doing prep for my first exam along with my mock. There was an investor presentation taking place, no further news. But hopefully next week I'll be getting some feedback.

AndoniP

30th Sep 2011, 15:24

As I understand it, Cabair are concentrating on commercial training from now on so are closing their smaller flying schools.

Some of these have been taken over by private concerns. I know Elstree has, and the new school is in the same building, with the same instructors, not sure about the part timers - they're just waiting for the aircraft to come across from other airfields over the next day or two.

I hear Biggin Hill also has someone reopening the school.

Good luck to everyone affected.

AndoniP

30th Sep 2011, 15:31

And also reading this gives you a clearer idea of their intentions:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/460059-statement-cabair-international.html

tweetypie

30th Sep 2011, 15:37

Now let's look at this from an investor's point of view.

Why would I want to put my hard earned money into a company that is/has/on the verge of bankruptcy? approximately £1.8M is the short fall to bring it back to zero and no cash flow, so lets call it £3M.

Repayment as a "loan" over 10 years at 5% is a repayment of £30k per month, over and above the operating loss that got the company into this position; also the money paid by students already will inevitably been used to keep them afloat until now; another large and probably unaccounted for sum of money.

Doesn't really say much for the recent "investor" whose due diligence was so bad in the first place that they missed the Black Hole and now they are running the business, or not as the case maybe.

So I give £3M to a company whose management structure has driven it into the ground and could not add up to start with, and wait for my return over 10 years? If it lasts that long...hmmm!!

Huge downside and no upside, as the Dragons would say, I'm out!:=:=:=

Better chance on the National Lottery!

student88

30th Sep 2011, 16:14

They became too big and too complicated.

Genghis the Engineer

1st Oct 2011, 09:55

It's interesting to consider how this is going to affect the UK light aviation community. Here are some thoughts I have:

(1) With a lot of instructors looking for work, newly qualified instructors will now find it extremely hard to get any work.

(2) Remaining commercial schools such as Bonus or BCFT, who have been struggling a bit in the recession will get a very welcome boost.

(3) The availability of a lot of highish spec training singles and twins onto the market at the same time will substantially depreciate the second hand light aircraft market. It'll be a great buyers market, but pretty dreadful if you're trying to sell.

(4) A number of new startup flying schools as experienced instructors, and in some cases some quite good premises, come available with those instructors looking for work.

G

student88

1st Oct 2011, 11:49

Out of interest is the Diamond fleet used by Cabair owned or leased?

madlandrover

1st Oct 2011, 12:16

Out of interest is the Diamond fleet used by Cabair owned or leased?

Strictly speaking all leased - some are leased from outside sources, others are owned by Plane Talking ltd, a separate company set up to run Cabair's aircraft.

ElitePilot

1st Oct 2011, 23:43

I should imagine the fleet are somehow protected from reposession.

madlandrover

2nd Oct 2011, 07:38

Yes - Plane Talking ltd is a separate limited company, so it should be fine. All depends where the debts are of course.

Genghis the Engineer

2nd Oct 2011, 07:59

Yes - Plane Talking ltd is a separate limited company, so it should be fine. All depends where the debts are of course.

Except that who wants the aeroplanes? I'm sure they were bought specifically for lease to Cabair - with the demise of Cabair a lot of those aeroplanes will be sold because there is highly unlikely to be enough takers for them.

G

rmcb

2nd Oct 2011, 09:11

with the demise of Cabair a lot of those aeroplanes will be sold because there is highly unlikely to be enough takers for them.

Until that new, dynamic, shiny beacon of hope Cabaire appears on the horizon to save the would from the impending pilot shortage... At the same facilities, no doubt.

:hmm:

madlandrover

2nd Oct 2011, 18:05

Absolutely. Just because one of the "umbrella" companies seems to be in trouble - and let's be clear on this, there's no absolute statement, it's unlikely but just possible that the owners have called a halt to everything while still solvent to stop losing money - doesn't mean that the whole group have gone down the pan. It would be legal for another company to start a network of flying schools under a trading name... Been there, seen it, except none of us were invited back for jobs/pay/lost pay! There is a lot to be said in the FTO world for setting up a small but good FTO that can concentrate on quality without massive company politics.

Artie Fufkin

2nd Oct 2011, 20:59

Surely though, whether Cabair survives, or reinvents itself, the business is still terminally tainted. Which sane wannabe would ever hand over tens of thousands to them now?

rmcb

2nd Oct 2011, 22:18

Which sane wannabe would ever hand over tens of thousands to them now?

I can understand why you say this, but anyone can be taken in by a slick talking salesman who gives the plausible 'we're not run by the same people - look at our board - no familiar names' etc. bull****.

I am not a cynic, but I look over that precipice and see the carnage below. Bear in mind why the leasing company is a separate entity; a cynic devised this strategy as a very good way of having the legal prerogative outweigh the moral imperative. Characters who think this way rarely change the failed business model and generally fail again - for the same reasons.

If the rumours are true, then how sad if they were to use the umbrella principle.

If I ruled the world...

SFI145

3rd Oct 2011, 06:06

Teddy Robinson is the one who will not be taken seriously in the future.

ungarr

3rd Oct 2011, 14:01

I think the issue of being 'tainted' here is fundamental to the survival or otherwise of Cabair.
A friend of mine looked into doing the ab initio at Cabair recently and the sales team at Cabair told him how great the prospects for low hours pilots were. When he told me this I put him in touch with people in the 'real world' and he quickly learned how difficult it is out there for a low hours CPL/ATPL.
Of course now that the question mark over their solvency has surfaced he will be going elsewhere, irrespective of the outcome of their apparently futile quest for investors/buyers.
It is a fact they are tainted and anybody with an ounce of caution would steer clear.

chrisaviator

3rd Oct 2011, 22:10

Well, there is still a very tiny light at the end of the Cabair tunnel and it may be that all is not lost. Having flown on Friday, I was also able to fly again today. :ok:
This is good news for us chaps with money in our flight accounts and I must say that the staff are being very supportive considering everything that is going on.
This is one of the best parts of Cabair, its staff and especially the CFI who keeps me amused despite all the down talk:). To all the guys tied up with Cabair, I have got my fingers crossed for a positive outcome. :)

rmcb

4th Oct 2011, 10:41

Why, for example, don't the CAA make it a basic requirement that an FTO must actually own some aircraft ? They insist on premises, training manuals and a quality manual.

That's a big ask - the CAA to actually do something useful (like regulate?)for the monies they extract?

Groundloop

4th Oct 2011, 11:22

Why, for example, don't the CAA make it a basic requirement that an FTO must actually own some aircraft ?

If airlines don't need to own their own aircraft why should FTO's?

rmcb

4th Oct 2011, 11:48

If airlines don't need to own their own aircraft why should FTO's?

I agree, but by how much is a passenger inconvenienced if the airline goes bust? By how much is a student inconvenienced if the FTO goes bust? Consider the financial, pyschological and relationship effects.

Greater brains than mine, I am sure, have stormed this one. The only solution I can arrive at is escrow. This will put up the price of training, but maybe training is too cheap (heresy?) anyway? All of these FTOs work on such small margins it is no wonder some go belly up. Administering the escrow could be where the CAA becomes useful on this issue...

StatorVane

4th Oct 2011, 19:05

The previous poster is correct and I wholeheartedly agree but it can be difficult to do anything other than pay up front if those are the terms of the training to be undertaken.

Upfront payment is not the preserve of flight training and neither is insolvency, but what this industry lacks, and this is something which staggers me, is a proper system of guarantee for consumers regularly parting with sums in excess of £50k. Anywhere else you'd get solicitors involved for these sums.

This is where the CAA need to step up to the plate a bit. They need to take responsibility not just in the interests of the flying public but for all those who wish to undertake study or tuition to a CAA (JAA) approved/vetted sylllabus.

The CAA are no strangers to consumer guarantee with ATOL so why don't they provide a similar system to training pilots who are parting with many many times that which your typical sunseekers are? It CAN be done!

On a brighter note, i've been around a bit in this funny old business of aviation and I''ve learned a few things. Anyone decrepit enough to remeber SECOAT at Manston? There are positives too but we only get to hear of the bad cases. Cabair is a brand in it's own right in my opinion, alongside Oxford, say. Cabair and its constituent parts can pull through. The surmised numbers involved aren't phenomenal. This is do'able and I hope that all you guys training with them keep focussed on the goal. Keep your chins up and fingers crossed!!!

And to the the prophet of doom who said this:

IF it indeed turns out to be the case that Cabair has stopped operating, may I offer my sincere condolances to the staff and the students.

It must be a very difficult time for you all and I hope a happy ending is just around the corner.

However.......have a think. One of the UK's biggest and long standing flight school is having problems....and what does that tell you.

LH are trying to sell off bmi, who knows if they will survive. It does not look good for them.

TCX are reducing fleet size and the IT market is in decline.

Air Berlin are reducing there fleet.

Europe and the United States rocking on the precipce of recession or much worse. A planned forfit by the Greeks is begining to look a certanty.

In my humble opinion, dont spend another penny on flight training. There will not be any jobs..

Credit there to "waco". This is despondency at its British best. This industry is riddled with its failed pilots, dashed hopes and missed dreams but let me put you right on something and I hope this makes you feel better. THERE ARE JOBS OUT THERE! Go after them. If you want something bad enough you'll get it. Focus on your goal and don't get sidelined worrying about a job market you have no control over. If it truly worries you that much you can fight for a job in civy street over flying a desk!

waco

5th Oct 2011, 18:16

Hi StatorVane

I would be particularly happy for you to prove me wrong.

Could you give me some examples of airlines/operators who have very recently recruited or will recruit shortly.

Obviously NOT including CTC related positions or P2F ?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Globally Challenged

5th Oct 2011, 18:24

BA?

.

waco

5th Oct 2011, 19:33

sorry I should have been more specific, other than CTC / P2F or the current BA recruitment which I believe in the main for people without licences.

abgd

5th Oct 2011, 21:46

I'm only thinking of doing my PPL, but I have to say escrow seems to me to be a very good idea - I would actually pay a significant premium for it, though obviously it would still have to work out better than the PAYG price.

rmcb

5th Oct 2011, 22:15

obviously it would still have to work out better than the PAYG price

Therein lies the rub - you will be paying for peace of mind - therefore it will be more expensive.

tweetypie

5th Oct 2011, 22:46

You have all been screwed just need to understand it and take it on the chin!!
Reality is you will not get back any money (I never have) and it's all about how you will get to where you want to be.......how múch do you really want it???:ouch::ouch::ouch:

andyfielding

5th Oct 2011, 22:58

Anunaki

6th Oct 2011, 05:59

Tweety Pie,a little more detail on your experience,would help us understand your point.I get it that should Cabair remain shut,the consequences could be very hard for some of us,but this sort of "beating down" doesn't help to ease the pain.It's funny that every forum becomes genocide, whatever the subject discussed and I feel that It would be much more constructive when we put our brains together to think on how the students could argue for their rights,would Balpa help the students that are registered as members?(they have a support/advice line,students can sign up for free),should people start contacting banks that they borrowed money from?,ask another schools for advice etc...you know, that sort of advice,instead of,"there,you deserve it you idiot,I was right,you wrong".
Out of experience,I saw the BA cabin crew lose a lot of their rights, committing suicide by eating each other instead of working towards a common goal and I feel that the aviation in Britain is on a spiral dive because WE are a$£%holes to each other.The BA Future pilot programme forum is already in full civil war and those guys don't even have invitations to the interviews yet...your personal vendettas wont take you very far people.
Now,to more serious business,Yesterday the boys doing their CPL/Multi here in Florida were grounded due to the fact that Cabair owns the JAA authorisation from CAA,so is not looking good.Now,I've requested the school to give me the money I had on my account back and I was told that OFT was financially independent from Cabair(well..smell like bs)but the lovely lady at the reception told me that the students would be reimbursed should they go down.
I feel for the integrated guys as I have many friends there and I know that in the "contract of life" there is no clause stating that it should be fair,but you'll have to accept that the damage is done,so I propose to all of you to move on to a reconstruction mode!Think of your contingency plans and what to do next.One suggestion(maybe a little early but,better to pre-empt I think)contact an solicitor and discuss your options,at least you're showing your bank that your chasing the £70K+ they gave you,be proactive!
As far as doom and Gloom,each one to their own!If flying for you is the right hand sit of an A320 Only,then I'm sorry but it will be very hard,fact.Someone posted earlier mentioning that there's no jobs,ah well,there is jobs out there,just not many...I can get 10 airlines recruiting right now just from the top of my head.(BA,Cityflyer,Jet2,Easy,Ryanair,Air France,Wizzair,Qatar*second officer,Cathay*Second officer tho,Tam*-you don't have to speak their language anymore and they take foreigners now,just need to convert your license,which is quite cheap)
But some involve you leaving the country or leaving your comfort zone but again,if you really love it,you do it.
Let's hope for the best:ok:

L'aviateur

6th Oct 2011, 09:46

Possibly a bit late for some people, but when paying large amounts try to use a credit card.
I have reclaimed 1000 GBP when a flying school went down and I had paid on my credit card (although it did take about 2-3 months).

Good luck to everyone in these trouble times at Cabair.

Genghis the Engineer

6th Oct 2011, 10:25

Tweety pie? Seriously? Why will we not get our money back to students on the course? The outcome looks bright for cabair and at the end of this it could benefit all students! Do not comment with your pathetic comments unless you know the facts! Stick to flight sim!

Bright?

Flying stopped, presumably huge debts, many of the instructors visibly looking for new jobs as fast as possible, and a huge dent in their market credibility.

I'm not discounting that they might be saved - I hope for the sake of all the students and instructors that they can be, but bright it is not.

And we all know that customers are usually the last to get their money back when a company folds. Those students who have paid for significant flying up front do not appear in a strong position.

I wish everybody at Cabair very best of luck in saving the company. But, they should be be honest with their students about the risks. Smoke and mirrors helps nobody at such a time.

G

Genghis the Engineer

6th Oct 2011, 10:36

Therein lies the rub - you will be paying for peace of mind - therefore it will be more expensive.

The school gets the advantage of a guarantee that the money is there so can offer discount, the student gets the guarantee that they'll get their money back if the school vanishes (I'd assume no such guarantees if they change their mind).

So, I'd anticipate, since both win, an Escrow cost sitting somewhere between PAYG and up-front.

When Pegasus Aviation (now part of P&M) was developing the CT they used Escrow for early orders, with guaranteed return of the money if the aircraft wasn't delivered within a period of time. This worked really well for everybody - orders were confirmed so Pegasus could borrow against it to fund certification and initial production, whilst customers felt certain they wouldn't lose their money either way.

No reason that couldn't work in flying training.

G

rmcb

6th Oct 2011, 11:33

The school gets the advantage of a guarantee that the money is there so can offer discount

Agreed; if working on the principle that the FTO isn't paying off past fiduciary 'irregularities' with upfront payments!

My meaning behind the peace of mind issue would hopefully involve the CAA - if only to ensure an easier transition to another FTO for as seamless training continuity as possible.

And we all know there is a CAA premium for their gold plated service standards.:hmm:

Moth Man

6th Oct 2011, 14:36

Does anyone have any hard information on the Cabair situation at Cranfield, Bournemouth and Wycombe? Are they still operating, are commercial courses still running? Thanks.

Globally Challenged

6th Oct 2011, 14:54

at least you're showing your bank that your chasing the £70K+ they gave you

The banks will have no interest in the whys or wherefores. You signed the loan agreement not Cabair. All they want is to be paid on time, every month - or you risk serious and long term damage to your credit and risk any assets (house?) you put up as security.

Be under no illusion.

Genghis the Engineer

6th Oct 2011, 16:26

Does anyone have any hard information on the Cabair situation at Cranfield, Bournemouth and Wycombe? Are they still operating, are commercial courses still running? Thanks.

Cranfield: definitely not flying.

Wycombe: I have no definite information, but it has always been run as a separate business, and Cabair own I think 51% of it, not all of it - so if I expected anything to absolutely survive, it would be WAC.

G

Moth Man

6th Oct 2011, 16:31

Thanks. Does anyone know how this will impact the JV with FlyBe at Exeter?

18greens

6th Oct 2011, 20:38

Bad news if Cabair is going down.

Strangely I was at SFT almost exactly 10 years ago when it closed it's doors. Lots of words then about rescues and people getting their money back but it all came to nothing. The threads posted then in pprune almost exactly mirror those being posted today. Nothing, it appears has changed.

Good luck.

rmcb

6th Oct 2011, 20:49

The silence from Crawley is deafening. At least the FSA pretends to do something about regulating their charges.

amarjit singh

8th Oct 2011, 13:03

We at Falcon Flying Services Biggin Hill lost 300,000 pounds with SECOAT, 33,000 with Civil Air at Biggin
now another 43,000 with Cabair
on top of this Biggin Hill Airport have placed Liens on the aircraft which were leased to Cabair , and demanding tens of thousands of pounds for their release.

No Win situation.

What a crazy world.

Dan the weegie

9th Oct 2011, 19:58

Singh, the same thing happened to a few aircraft in Inverness when Highland Flying School went bust. The only thing I remember was that the airport have to prove that the debts must be for that specific aircraft. Only unpaid parking charges, landing fees and fuel can be attributed to the aircraft so you "should" be able to negotiate the price of the release of the planes.

turbine100

10th Oct 2011, 17:36

Have they completely shutdown? Their website is still online...

paco

10th Oct 2011, 17:43

I heard that they had been given a couple of weeks by the banks to get their act together, so presumably they are doing as much as they can.

787steve

10th Oct 2011, 17:47

That was 2 weeks ago, we should find out whats going to happen this week.

high wing harry

10th Oct 2011, 20:49

Wycome Air Centre is definitely run as a separate entity and was never a "Cabair School of Flying". I think the rest of Cabair were trying to use WAC as a model for how things should be done.

I think the issues at Cabair generally came about because the new investors have spent the majority of the last 12 months arguing between themselves and not in keeping an eye on where the business was going.

Problems will always come about when people invest in aviation companies without having a real idea about the business.

FOUR REDS

11th Oct 2011, 15:01

After I spoke with an exisiting instructor I believe it may be wise for a few facts to be pondered: (This info is secondhand, so if untrue I stand corrected)

End-of-year accounts for 31/12/2010 not (yet) filed with Companies House.
Fixed assets 2008: £ 900k
Fixed assets 2009: £ 500k

Cabair College of Air Training Instructors not paid for September!!!!!

Cranfield Airport Limited closed credit line for fuel!!!! (i.e. long overdue)
A few more outstanding debts too.

Would you 'restructure' by closing a facility for 2 weeks, suspend pay and send students home?

Said instructor is actively seeking another job!!!!

I wish staff and students all the best. An ex-CCAT bod.:{

Dofi27

11th Oct 2011, 15:16

We gonna to know what will happen with epta in eghh?

Genghis the Engineer

11th Oct 2011, 17:26

Cranfield Airport Limited closed credit line for fuel!!!! (i.e. long overdue)

Fuel at EGTC is exclusively supplied by a company called AKA who operate a strict 7 day payment policy and have done for at-least the last couple of years.

There is no such beast as Cranfield Airport Limited - it's all owned and run by the University. AKA have an exclusive licence from Cranfield University to supply fuel on site.

G

StatorVane

12th Oct 2011, 12:30

Hi waco.

Sorry for the delay in getting back. Sorry also for sounding condescending in my original post and I did not intend to come accross this way. I understand and share your frustration on the market outlook.

You asked for some examples of airlines currently recruiting and by that I assume you mean recruiting newly qualified crew? This is tricky but I'm not entirley sure why you're asking me this. In my comments I was trying to allude to the fact that if you want something - like becoming a paid pilot - then you've gotta go get it. You will allways be up against hurdles, recessions, wars , international crises and plenty of personal reasons why you should not do it right now. Every single pilot has borne these concerns to one degree or another (unless you have endless money and time to burn). You can procrastinate until the time is right but will it ever be right for you, or me?

So, what I was trying to say was really as a direct response to you seemingly trying to disuade people from pursuing their dreams. You may well be right on all of the points you mention but you gotta get a foot in the door and one sure fire way of never succeeding is never having tried. I know a bloke that never tried and he is a lovely bloke in a successful career now but he is one of these "I could have been, should have been, would have been" types. He regrets not having tried at least. Incidentally, he was put off by the prospect of the investement never paying off, i.e not getting a job.

A word on investors to respond to High Wing Harry. Harry, in this convoluted capitalist world gone mad it is rare to get investors who actually know about the technicalities, as valuable as it might be. They know the business and accounts inside out but could'nt tell the back end of a 757 from the front of a tug and would probably attempt to attach them in that order! Think Russian's or Americans and football teams! I once bought shares in a pharmaceutical; I know nothing about preparing drugs but knew enough about the performance of the company to invest in a share or two of it.

Sad isn't it? But that's the way it has become now.

I think Cabair is probably a victim of the cash-fluidity becoming cash-solidity crisis which this should be called. This is almost entirley borne out of irrational market fears coming fom unskilled bankers (yes I did mean Bankers) who have now got to work for a living but have just realised they don't know how. They have been crooked for so long they can't stand up straight. It has nothing to do with consumer/business credit or credit-worthiness and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

waco

12th Oct 2011, 13:41

Stator

Excellent e-mail and thanks for the reply.

I'm not a pilot. I decided against persuing that route after Dan Air and Air Europe had gone bust. I saw the long line of pilots outside the job centre at LGW and thought.....perhaps not at the moment.

I however worked in civil aviation for more years than I care to remember and have therefore seen the success stories, the guys and gals who have made it. Well done to them !

Alas I have also seen the very many who have not made it. The runined relationships, the bankruptcy and the destroyed lives that have resulted from "following the dream".

These days "following the dream" can cost north of £100,000 and that is really scary especially when the whole of europe teaters on a possible depression never mind a recession. Add to that the decreasing terms and conditions that a flight deck job brings.

Add to that the realities of the flight deck job it self. Often changing bases, up a 3 in morning for days on the run, working christmas and bank holidays and praying that medical is passed every time plus the profficency tests.

All I'm trying to do in my own way is express the reality in todays aviation industry.

Good luck to all at cabair, staff and students I really mean that.

I've been made redundant in aviation more than once. if you are going to work in this industry thats something to get used to.

Oh and finally, as well all know, the only way to make a small fortune in aviation.....is start with a very big fortune.

magicmick

13th Oct 2011, 12:06

What an horrific email, to my simple head it smacks of throwing good money after bad. Consider the following situations:

1. A few students agree to pay the extra money which goes into the Cabair debt black hole, but not enough students stump up to stop Cabair going into administration so the students that have paid extra lose that money as well as their initial fees that they paid when they signed up to the school.
2. Enough students stump up extra money to keep Cabair alive but some students refuse to pay extra. Do the students that have not paid extra get to continue their training as well as those that did pay extra?
3. Assuming enough students pay up to rescue Cabair now, what happens in 3 months when that extra money is gone and they’re back in the same situation, do the students have to pay even more?

The only way for the students to make anything work is for all of them to form a group and speak with one voice.

It’s interesting to note that the email from Cabair makes no mention of senior staff getting their wallets out to prop up the organisation that has feathered their nests for some time, maybe it’s true that there is no honour among thieves.

Much as it pains me to state it, the only sensible thing to do would be to let the school go into administration and for the affected students to register a claim with the administrator for any money that they are owed for training not yet received. It will take years to settle any claims and no-one will get 100% of what they are owed but some might get a little refund.

As the email states, it’s up to the students to be the jury and it may well be time to ‘send the accused down.’

Whatever the outcome, my sincere best wishes go out the Cabair students and decent ‘shop floor’ employees who are affected by this situation.

Super Stall

13th Oct 2011, 15:34

Was that email some kind of sick joke?

I see the original poster (their first post), has deleted it now. I must admit I had my doubts; it was not a cut and paste and contained spelling errors etc.

FOUR REDS

13th Oct 2011, 15:52

G-MEOW's message came from Crays Hill, where the gippos occupy Dale Farm!!!! Obviously very agitated......... very << catty >> :confused:

The 'deleted' message was his first under this pseudonym, but it seems that the essence of his 'quoted' email of yesterday was actually correct, although one now talks about a capped sum of £10k.

I understand that at the close of play today, no further efforts by bank or investment group was evident.

Tempus fugit. :suspect:

Genghis the Engineer

13th Oct 2011, 18:16

One that was posted by G-MEOW claiming it to be from within Cabair, then deleted. It claimed that students were being asked for up to £15k each contribution to their courses to keep Cabair afloat. It got deleted a few hours later.

G

x933

13th Oct 2011, 18:41

Welcome to the wonderful world of insolvency.

There will be no honour amoungst thieves, and unsecured creditors are always the last to see any money regardless of the amount. Students (clients, if you will) - this means you.

I'd be interested to see Wee Weasley Welshman's spin on this.

zondaracer

13th Oct 2011, 19:21

G-RICH, I like what you said here...
That and the end of FTOs. As someone above says, there is no problem with the "shop floor" instructors. Have the CAA stick the syllabus and lesson plans on the Net, have instructors register their interest with the CAA and just let them do the job in a suitable aircraft which can be laid on by any flying club or organisation. It would be a bit like AMEs - just go and pick the one that suits you..

That would seem similar to the FAA Part 61 system.

horatio_b

13th Oct 2011, 20:15

G-RICH

HMRC have not been able to claim preferential status in insolvent estates since the Enterprise Act 2002 came into force

Quote from HMRC web site

"References to Crown preference have been removed. HMRC does not have preferential status in the distribution of the assets of an insolvent estate. The former Departments of Customs & Excise and Inland Revenue both lost preferential status on 15 September 2003 under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002. At the time of publishing, the Crown still has preferential status in the distribution of the assets of insolvent businesses in Northern Ireland."

Gomrath

13th Oct 2011, 21:51

One would assume that any Cabair student using the said product would be a registered user of that product and therefore the product owner would have contact information of those registered users without the need to use this thread to advertise his business under the guise of getting the word out to his customers.

magicmick

14th Oct 2011, 09:47

These collapses don’t happen overnight and we can assume that there have been serious troubles for many months that the top level staff have been fully aware of. It would be interesting to know how many students Cabair have taken money from in the knowledge that they were going under.

Mad Jock made a very interesting contribution to this thread that he was concerned when Cabair were not included in the list of FTOs accredited by BA for their FPP scheme. In the past BA have been happy to take ex Cabair students and one would have thought that Cabair would have been a certainty to be included with OAA, FTE and CTC. I suppose that many months ago BA carried out some sort of due diligence exercise on the FTOs that they were considering for their scheme and discovered that all was not well with Cabair so they didn’t include Cabair in their scheme, despite these serious troubles Cabair continued to take huge sums of money from students, I suppose that it is naïve in the extreme to think that they might have done the honourable and ethical thing rather than continue wringing whatever they could out of the students for as long as possible.

The paradox is that if BA had included Cabair in their scheme then they might have avoided the unholy mess that they are in now, they may have had enough money to survive or used the BA scheme to strengthen their case to the banks to cut them some slack.

If Cabair does survive this they might honour the training paid for by their current students but I cannot see any new students signing up to them, anyone currently seriously considering Cabair for any flight training in the future must be overdosed on insanity tablets.

If Cabair does survive there might be some mileage in making this thread a sticky so that prospective students choosing an FTO can read this information and make an informed decision based on the stability of the school and how they are prepared to treat their students if/ when it all goes wrong.

As always my best wishes to the innocent victims (students and employees).

directvector

14th Oct 2011, 13:31

Since the much talked about email has been deleted, I can confirm it's contents in brief-
(apologies, as original is in PDF and it's too long to retype!!!)

Efforts to get offers for the company as a whole were unsuccessful
The existing investors/management (from the buyout last year) do want to honour all contracts for students and continue the business, the bank disagree. The students are referred to a 'pre paid liability'. The investors/management are still determined to make it work somehow, and clearly want to do the right thing by the students, and they are willing to add funds to keep things going.
But students will be asked to pay UP TO £15k, depending on stage of training, this is to supplement the investor/management funds. Again, that figure is an UP TO figure. It will depend on hours flown and original price paid. Max is 15k.
It is a situation of top up fee's, or face administration.
It must still be presented (and accepted) with the bank and the CAA, and no money will change hands without agreement from those parties.
The 'top up fee' will come with other benefits to graduates and training guarantee's, there is no mention of how the money would be paid or held or guaranteed.

They plan to assist more with airline placement, and other discounts for the students while they are on the course, by utilizing their collective power for discounts with local companies at Cranfield.

Further to that official announcement, unofficial word has come out that:

A response from the bank is expected by monday, if approved, it will mean a new company, taking on the liability of the old students, and requiring transfer of approvals from the CAA. All of which is already in motion.

So that's the gist of it.

My view and input: The current investors/management really do want to do the right thing for the students, and don't want to see people loosing money, but there are few options left at this point.
I agree with previous posters who ask "who would pay to come to this school now?"
So, in a few months time when the new students starting the course income dries up, how will the company go forward?
Maybe a large discount on the course if you pay up front!!!! :rolleyes:

Students I know have already started talking to other schools to finish their training, and special quotes are being made for them from other FTO's. Some are willing to pay the top up, if guarantees are made, some are refusing, some can't afford it.
How they will manage some students paying and some not, could be very interesting.

paco

14th Oct 2011, 15:22

They have had fixed wing students for a while now

North of the Field

14th Oct 2011, 15:50

Quote from directvector:
"They plan to assist more with airline placement, and other discounts for the students while they are on the course, by utilizing their collective power for discounts with local companies at Cranfield.".......

Well that would be a first! I've been finished Cabair Integrated now 3yrs and am still waiting for any sort of 'assistance' to be offered!!!!! and before you think I'm just another ex Cabair who didn't make the cut I got a first time I.R, first time/first series passes in all other tests as well as first time ground school passes with a 95% average. Since I've been finished I haven't heard of them recommending one person to an airline (I'm not counting the Flybe sponsored guys who have already passed an assessment before embarking on the course).

I feel for the current crop of students, instructors and admin staff who are suffering due to this situartion.

StatorVane

14th Oct 2011, 16:27

In light of the cabair uncertainties would anyone be prepared to reccommend alternative providers?

My position is this. I had signed up to start with cabair groundschool and my personal commitements mean I can't afford to delay it until next year. So the only other options appear to be Oxford, CATS or Flying Time. Full time is the route I want to take.

Oxford want £4700 up front but i don't see evidence that they are tyrpically £1700 worth better than the rest, but would be pleased to be corrected on that. Most come in at about £3K.

BCFT look very good, fit very well with my current arrangements and accommodation etc but don't start a new course until next Jan. They started 2 weeks ago and I dropped a clanger there. Could someone start 2-3 weeks late?

Any other ideas? I'm against the clock with this

Of course I'm hoping Cabair, as my preffered choice, get something sorted here.

StatorVane

14th Oct 2011, 18:06

Cheers Rich,

Do you know anything about Oxford or CATS? I know Oxfords reputation is good but any idea why they charge what they do? Is there something I am missing?

Thanks

Oh by the way, with Oxford do you get all those nice DVD roms and CBTs that they do?

Reverserbucket

14th Oct 2011, 21:49

magicmick,

Mad Jock made a very interesting contribution to this thread that he was concerned when Cabair were not included in the list of FTOs accredited by BA for their FPP scheme. In the past BA have been happy to take ex Cabair students and one would have thought that Cabair would have been a certainty to be included with OAA, FTE and CTC. I suppose that many months ago BA carried out some sort of due diligence exercise on the FTOs that they were considering for their scheme and discovered that all was not well with Cabair so they didn’t include Cabair in their scheme,

On the contrary, I understand that BA made a decision during the last sponsorship scheme over ten years ago that they would not endorse Cabair as a training provider for future cadets for a number of reasons. If I recall correctly only one class passed through Cranfield. That said, I know plenty of Cabair alumni who are currently at BA in addition to the former cadets. Trent Air Services, the predecessor to CCAT was a top quality training establishment in the same league as the BAe Flying College (now FTE), OATS and CTC - when Cabair took over a lot was lost in my opinion.

As a former employee, I wish the students and staff the best of luck.

shorty79

14th Oct 2011, 22:45

I visited an open day at Cranfiled a couple of months ago.

My impression was that those at the top had a sincere intention to get things right, but there was an unhealthy air of desperation. Lots of enthusiasm but something just didn't feel right.

They were a bit too quick to be a little damning of their rivals and I felt they had confused things by introducing Flight Level 500.

All in all it was as if they were playing catch up, and it now seems that they might have run out of time.

Ground school seemed as good as anywhere else, basic flight training seemed in the same league as else where (overseas), but there appeared to be a large gap when it came to the business end of sim training and employment opportunities.

I took my other half along and she thought they were heading in the right direction but still had some way to go to match the high standards set by the other FTOs during their open days. She's a proper grown-up business woman, where as I come from a media background, so I trust her view.

The offer of an on the spot £10k discount did not reassure - to be honest, and I know it's a shame, the writing was on the wall. I was warned by another hopeful at the open day that they had already lost a lot of their fleet due to financial difficulties. It's never a good sign once gossip starts.

I hope I haven't offended anyone but this was my experience and my gut feeling seems to have been vindicated.

I wish anyone caught up in this all the best.

Genghis the Engineer

15th Oct 2011, 07:58

In the half dozen years I've been spending significant time at Cranfield, it's also been noticeable that there have been two flying training communities at EGTC: Cabair (who all talk to each other) and "Everybody else", who also all talk to each other.

Not sure why that's been the case, but it has been quite noticeable. I wonder if to some extent this attitude has stretched through the company - "we're part of Cabair" rather than "we're part of the flying community", and it's not helped them much?

G

magicmick

15th Oct 2011, 19:14

Hi Reversebucket

Many thanks for putting me right on my false assumptions which were made from an 'outside looking in' perspective and will not stand up against your insider knowledge going back many years.

No offence intended.

Lets hope that a rescue package can be agreed, if only to get the current students through their training.

Geezer7348

16th Oct 2011, 12:13

Didn't AST up in Perth withdraw from training Commercial Pilots some time back ? I know they concentrated on the engineering side and may well re-enter the market in future. Shows it can be done.

AST did indeed withdraw from the Flight Training although according to their website they have now re-commenced pilot training (http://airservicetraining.co.uk/flight-training.cfm) offering the ATPL (A).

Teddy Robinson

16th Oct 2011, 12:57

Your post was integrated into this larger longer thread, it originally appeared by itself. I accept the point made graciously, obviously there is no smoke without fire, and this situation looks as bad as it can be without a formal declaration of insolvency, so in that sense I hope you will accept an apology.

Over the years though, individuals have popped up with similar "rumours" regarding various businesses in the aviation sector most of which proved to be without foundation, but undoubtedly tarnished the target company for a while.
That is why I asked for the source of your information.

I hope for everybody's sake a workable solution can be found !

Groundloop

17th Oct 2011, 08:27

The offer of an on the spot £10k discount did not reassure - to be honest,

This was probably part of the problem with the bank. Cabair's so-called £1 million "sponsorship". The first 100 students to sign up get offered a £10k discount.

The bank probably saw this and said "Hey! You've just given away a million quid! You're having a laugh, mate!" - and pulled the plug.

Teddy Robinson

17th Oct 2011, 09:00

The "cultural divide" at EGTC that you refer to is absolutely the case, or certainly was when last there and observed over many previous years.

I found this rather odd : As a product of Kidlington some 20 years back, there were the airline sponsored guys & girls who wore blue trousers/white shirt during business hours, and the privateers who dressed as they pleased, but that was the only observable social and professional difference, we were all there with the same goal, and from a very diverse aviation gene pool.

Perhaps this is all part of the 0-ATPL thing, there is no gene pool, just a product for the PTF industry.

BigGrecian

17th Oct 2011, 12:25

I would say the "cultural difference" is even encouraged by the school in a subconscious way to the students. It makes them feel "privileged" or "special"
(I know my word choice will upset some but I can't think of more appropriate words right now but my point is got across) - which is part of making them believe that what they are paying for is worth the money.

Have you ever noticed when any of the big integrated schools have problems - which they do just like every other school - there doesn't seem to be any of their students vocal about them - they're almost robotically loyal to the school.

I think it's become one of the only ways as in recent year the output from the quality of output from the integrated schools has declined and the job market has become more level between modular and integrated and the price disparity seems to have got wider.

jez d

17th Oct 2011, 14:59

Have you ever noticed when any of the big integrated schools have problems - which they do just like every other school - there doesn't seem to be any of their students vocal about them - they're almost robotically loyal to the school.

Probably more to do with the fact that they don't want to rock the boat and get a black mark in their school report.

Any developments today anyone feels like sharing?

ReadyForDeparture

17th Oct 2011, 15:16

I was at Cabair during 2009/2010 and it was aparent even then that the company was having difficulties. With the onset of the recession they were looking to reduce courses from 6 a year to 4 due to reduction in students applying. They were also looking to lay off groundschool instructors. After opening up a training base in Florida which was cheaper to operate from they then talked about closing their spanish base and doing more training over in the US to save money. At the same time flying instructors were having their pay changed from being salaried to hourly causing some instructors to jump ship. There was further restructuring and 'streamlining' going on in the office staff aswel.

The general way that the company treated it's customers, particularly with regards to finances, showed some amount of desperation in my opinion. Customer service and the way the company kept moving the goal posts was less than professional. A few times they approached us asking for more money. Not to mention the changes in training structure that were not agreed in the initial contract. The product we had paid for kept changing and the previously agreed fees kept going up for no apparent reasons. They were never forthcomming in explaining why and no training contracts were reissued as a result either. All somewhat dodgy if you ask me and reaking of bad business and financial problems. I believe that earlier on this year new investors took over the company but to no avail it seems.

I think that the unproffesional way the company treated customers with regards to the *huge* sums of money they have paid was a sign of bad business and bad customer service. As a student it felt like being treated like children quibbling over pocket-money, not customers 'investing' their hard earned life savings. On that note, I think the fact that half the students came from a part of the world where £60k was mere pocket-money and were purely 'buying' their little blue book contributed to this attitude. Maybe had Cabair been more honest with students about finances etc there would have been less 'quibbling' in the first place. I don't mind a sudden increase in fees as long as I'm given the honest reason for it.

There was talk that buying a fleet of Diamond aircraft did them no favours either. The Diamonds incured unforseen costs with regards to parts and maintenance after the engine manufacturer went bust making parts hard to find - so Cabair bought all available parts they could find anywhere...just aswel because they weren't the most reliable aircraft.

So back in '09 the early warning signs were already flashing. We could all see it. It's a shame really as they have the potential to be up there with the rest of the FTOs if they just sorted out their customer service and training consistency. All the ground and flying instructors were good people that kept it all going but it was the fundamental business handling side that was flawed. Less money-grabbing and more customer service would turn the place around! Granted, the company appeared not be making enough money to cover things, maybe a victim of the recession, who knows, but since all other FTOs seems to be doing ok there must be some fundamental reason why they've got into this corner.

I hope that someone invests in them and turns things around. The assets are salvagable, just get someone in there to tighten up the business end. I think there is still plenty of potential in Cabair and I wish all the current staff and students all the best. Hope it works out.

As for the comments on 'cultural divide', I don't really see this as relevent. Show me a FTO that doesn't think it's something else from the GA world. Personally it gave me a sense of purpose- I wasn't some PPL student at a local flying club, but on a dedicated training program to develop my future career. But yes, I do see your point. Anyway, not really relevent to the Cabair situation.

flyingguy1984

17th Oct 2011, 15:33

As an ex-cabair student myself I can tell you that most of the students, and staff were openly vocal about the dislike of the school, especially about the way it was run from the top. We were told lies from day one, I am quite happy to share a few of the issues we all came across;

- Fuel surcharges were slapped on from the early days of the economic doom and continued despite the price of fuel dropping. (up to £12 an hour extra income)

- Countless arguments (some quite public) amongst CFIs and FIs regarding standards which was supposed to be standardised but seldom were.

- When you finished the course, depending on how many hours you over flew, the amount you paid was 'negotiable' with the Manager. Some paid a lot more than others did, so where that money went for a 1 hour flight you did a year ago no one knows.

- A certain member of staff who dealt with interviews and course deposits was sacked for some alleged money movements

- We were assured we would be taught the ground school element of our course in the new university business park. Never happened to this day and all of the classes were told in decripid cold damn porta-cabins.

- And the bit that always makes me laugh, I knew quite a few students who didn't pass the entrance exams, namely the science and maths tests, and were given the papers to take home and post back....

IMO - the one side of things that the students certainly felt uncertain of was the non-flying management. They were either unavailable to talk to you, or when they did, spouted a load of BS.

In regards to the uniform element, I think perhaps that is the only element of doing an integrated course that is beneficial. You are living in the environment together, doing your training etc, and it gets you into the mindset of what you are trying to achieve. The benefit ends there though, because when you are flushed out the other end, without the after course support they lie about, the non-existant recommendations, and the absence of useful airline contacts, you are back down on planet earth with a bang. We all saw it coming. I feel sorry for some of the staff who were a good bunch in a bad outfit. I'm not looking for any sympathy, I've realised my mistakes and I paid for them heavily, it looks like many others have done the same too.

RoyHudd

17th Oct 2011, 15:59

Just to balance things, as a privateer at Oxford almost 15 years ago, it was a dishonest place as regards management and money. They were thieves. The flight instructors and standards were good and consistent. <groundschool....ahem...arrogant. But they opened my eyes to the double standards that exist in aviation flight training. Sounds like the same at ex-Cabair

North of the Field

17th Oct 2011, 16:23

Absolutely spot on with all that flyingguy1984 (can see a lot of similarities there with my own experience).

The biggest shame about Cabair is that they had all the elements in place to be right up there with the other CPL providers, good ground school (the CGI runs (or ran maybe depending what happens) a very tight ship - I know they had just invested in IPads to enhance the learning experience), a modern fleet of aircraft (with the appropriate sims) and some approachable/knowledgable/friendly flight instructors (with the exception of one particular (in my opinion) detestable character). The problem really boils down to management (or lack of) and the consistent lying/false promises that are made paricularly as Flyingguy1984 touched upon with regards to recommendations/useful flying contacts. The majority of us that went through the course weren't stupid and knew the market was tough when we finished but seemingly no effort appears to be made by the management to form any sort of useful links to the various operators either home or abroad and I think this is the kind of major mismanagement (coupled I'm sure to many other factors) which will have lost the school countless numbers of students over the years.

B.I.G.Nick

17th Oct 2011, 18:47

So does anyone know what is happening down in Bournemouth?? As a former Cabair/EPTA student I'm curious to know whats happening down there as I've seen Cranfield mentioned a lot on here but not much for Bournemouth. I have a friend who runs accommodation for pilots down in Bournemouth. They had a Cabair flight instructor staying with them, but he has apparently gone back home to wherever he lives as he hasn't been paid in over a month. It doesn't sound good. Would be interested to know if anyone has anymore info on the situation at EGHH??

Mosman

18th Oct 2011, 05:21

Does anyone know how much the current owners paid the previous owners for Cabair?

Genghis the Engineer

18th Oct 2011, 07:11

Does anyone know how much the current owners paid the previous owners for Cabair?

I don't know from any reliable source, but the CFI at another large school that shares a site with Cabair told me he believed it was £0.99.

Just emphasising, this is rumour, not verified fact.

G

Fitter2

18th Oct 2011, 08:50

More important than the purchase price, which auditors were contracted to carry out due diligence, and what does the contract say about concealed liabilities - I smell lawyers..............

rmcb

18th Oct 2011, 11:57

Interesting point from Fitter2; what was the appeal to the new owners in the first place?

Either they:

A) were incredibly stupid to buy a business that has demonstrated its inability to flourish. Hubris knows no bounds.

or

B) have an eye for a business to be stripped and binned, damn the consequences to human and/or physical assets. See the Rover takeover.

Until the law on business ownership and what rights the new owner has to disburse the monies changes, Cabaire (sic) will flourish within a couple of weeks. Then may be the time to sign up and get the qualifications as fast as you can before the next 'Dear John...' letter does the rounds.

Plus ça change (plus c'est la même chose). Time for decent regulation!

PPRuNeUser0173

18th Oct 2011, 21:43

Apparently there is now only one Instructor left at EGHH - the CFI. The ops guy was finished recently and you are correct about the other flying instructors - no pay no work. This school charges students by payment upfront so theoretically there should funds to pay them. With no serviceable multi engine aircraft and the PA28's disabled by wheel removal there is no training happening at present anyway! The Ground School is operating normally but the flying students are waiting for some sort of resolution as they still have money tied up and cannot move on - what a horrid situation to be in. EPTA is at two locations and I am told there appears to be no interest in helping out the Bournemouth students by the other branch at Wycombe - charming!!
So it doesn't look good frankly. Obviously there is a large mess to sort out if it were to ever get going again - perhaps it might but who knows - don't hold your breath.

Please note that this info is from sources at both locations and may or may not be correct so don't shoot the messenger!

Ivan Taclue

19th Oct 2011, 13:28

Just heard that this previously non-trading company is being activated.

After an agreement in principle with the CAA, an application for approval to conduct Modular/Integrated training out of Cranfield is to be made shortly.

Former CCAT staff seem to be involved, rewriting manuals and course material. I understand CIA may take-over some if not all of the liabilities.
Would be great if that meant the staff get paid their September pay and students can recommence.

Apparently CCAT had a potential November intake of 22. A few of these allegedly are still keen to go ahead. Someone in CCAT with a moral compass
has advised them not to pay up until the sitrep is positive.

Hope CIA pull it off. In any case well done for keeping the ball rolling.

A supporter! :)

chrisbl

19th Oct 2011, 21:12

As long as there are gullible people out there, the likes of Cabair will continue, and no doubt CIA will go the same way as CCAT, because nothing ever changes.

The CAA will be no help in this either. As long as they get their fees from inspecting and approving providers why should they deter any outfit from coming forward for approval.

As an organisation nay regulator that depends on customers for survival I would even hazzard a suggestion that the CAA would not discourage applications.

So just because the CAA are involved it does not mean that all is pucka.

rmcb

19th Oct 2011, 22:24

As an organisation nay regulator that depends on customers for survival I would even hazzard a suggestion that the CAA would not discourage applications.

Former CCAT staff seem to be involved, rewriting manuals and course material.

So - does anyone believe that a regulator worth their rations should even countenance sharing oxygen with a once dormant company run by the same bunch of jokers? If they do, are they not morally bankrupt and should they be allowed to continue a monopoly?

Waste of space. If you're going to regulate, do it properly. Time for change.

Groundloop

20th Oct 2011, 07:22

If you're going to regulate, do it properly.

They do do it properly. The CAA ensures that the course is taught in the proper fashion to appropriate standards with appropriate materials and equipment and correctly following the various syllabii.

Individual company finances have nothing to do with the CAA. Why should the CAA get involved in this area?

rmcb

20th Oct 2011, 13:52

They do do it properly

I will concede your point for the reasons you give - they do regulate. To a fashion.

My point is that they have it in their gift to make the structure of courses, appointment of FTOs and candidates' responsibilities to themselves more accountable at one level.

I have no desire to have heavy handed regulation - that way leads to the jobsworth mentality so prevalent in the Nu Labour (and now, I fear, the Nu Conservative) world.

Perception is all; is there a mechanism to say, up front 'yes, we have done due diligence on the training manuals, but we are not responsible for monitoring the financial aspects of this company - despite their having made a cock of it in the past.'?

While the CAA has the ultimate say in dictating who is allowed to extract vast sums of money from students, I believe there is a moral imperative to include the fiduciary element in their considerations. It appears to me this is not the case.

My perception of the whole mixup is that different parts of different bodies are accountable. Any lawyer worth his/her rations will turn any case down involving an animal that can point anywhere other than itself.

I maintain: time for change!

Lt. Goose

22nd Oct 2011, 09:49

Anybody thought about their current modular students?

nitro57

22nd Oct 2011, 13:06

Obviously this website site is called a rumour network and there are alot of rumours flying about regards Cabair and their current state, I find the Provenance and accuracy of these rumours is difficult to judge.

The reason for this is fairly straight forward, if Cabair are in such a state as people say they are then why are they still able to afford advertisement in Pilot magazine?

Another question is why has no member of Cabair staff made any comment on PPRUNE, and there are members of Cabair staff that are members of this site and have previously posted on other Cabair related topics.

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Oct 2011, 13:55

The reason for this is fairly straight forward, if Cabair are in such a state as people say they are then why are they still able to afford advertisement in Pilot magazine?

Almost certainly because they were paid for before the company went tits up.

Another question is why has no member of Cabair staff made any comment on PPRUNE, and there are members of Cabair staff that are members of this site and have previously posted on other Cabair related topics.

That is curious - particularly if they're not, as as been widely reported, being paid. That tends to destroy most loyalty and diffuse many threats.

G

yamYamInsty

23rd Oct 2011, 17:49

A question was asked about why no previous Cabair staff had posted. I believe that one has! Here is another.

I was made redundant from an instructor post by Cabair some 18 months ago. (I have no grievance about the procedure).
I have found other employment in the meanwhile (although spent some salutory six months having to visit the Job Centre).
I have to say, that despite the current sad situation, my viewpoint as a former instructor, is that I found my instructor colleagues at Cabair professional to their utmost and wish them all the very best in for their futures. "It was a privilege to work with you guys". No names; no pack drill.
Nevertheless, under the present conditions, I feel somewhat vindicated about being made redundant. Whilst not the most ennervating position to be in, I am over that particular "kick in the teeth". And I was paid right up until the final day!!
I feel for those who have given their all for no remuneration, for the last two months.

Ivan Taclue

23rd Oct 2011, 18:21

yamYaminsty

Your post could have been written by me!!!!!!!

As always it's the lower ranks who get it in the neck...... And as the 2 weeks of temporary suspension have well passed, I fear with the greatest of fears, despite the beating of the drums by directors (old and new) and other management bods. Nevertheless in the interest of students and aforementioned staff I really do hope something positive comes out of this.

Regards from the Old Warden area.

Lightning Mate

23rd Oct 2011, 20:02

Do you really believe that anyone would work for nothing?

Teddy Robinson

23rd Oct 2011, 20:46

guess you didn't put £ X,000 into the company on trust.
We watched LSF aghast in the 70's and it grew, the oil streaked Cabair Air Taxi Navajo's turned into shiny Grumman AA1's (not cleared for spinning but wanted to do nothing else)... a great aircraft for EGTR !! but who cared, the punters had money and soooo ... yeh whatever hours to solo was fine.

At the time it reeked of cheque book licensing .. nothing changed.
Names and market changed for sure, mentality ... not.

Then who was gonna listen in the face of all that slick marketing ?
A whole load of people avoided them like the plague, and advised others to do likewise. QED.

My advice hasn't changed in 30 years: there is an excellent school at EGTC that has a sound financial base outside of aviation, and who deliver .. :) no uniforms required.

skit_uk

24th Oct 2011, 14:14

I have to say that some comments on here about Cabair "Cheque book licencing" are a bit unfair. Everyone who came out the other end of Cabair with a frozen ATPL had to go through all the tests like at any other flight school. The problem may well be that more students failed to make the grade during training and took much longer or gave in. However for those of us with licences from Cabair are just as qualified as anyone else. The actual training was of high standard.

Sometimes I feel that the bad rep of Cabair is holding me back in my job search and that it is unjustified.

FOUR REDS

25th Oct 2011, 09:04

Approaching four weeks...........and counting!!!!! :(

jez d

25th Oct 2011, 12:16

They're not on the exhibitor list: 2011 LONDON PROFESSIONAL FLIGHT TRAINING EXHIBITION (http://exhibitions.flyer.co.uk/london_29_oct_2011.htm)

P-LOT

25th Oct 2011, 14:46

Pilot training with EPTA at EGHH will not be continuing according to the cabair CEO by an email from him.

FOUR REDS

25th Oct 2011, 14:53

Hi P-Lot,

Can you expand a bit? What was the date of this email?

P-LOT

26th Oct 2011, 07:27

The email was sent to EPTA I believe a couple of days ago. That is all I know so don't shoot the messenger. I stand corrected if someone knows better.

chrisbl

27th Oct 2011, 17:57

As each day goes by it seems increasingly unlikely that it will be business as normal for Cabair.
Liabilities have increased over the last month with no income coming in which increases the additional capital required especially if they intend to get their impounded aircraft released.

Not a pretty sight.

smarthawke

27th Oct 2011, 20:02

But how many aircraft did Cabair actually own? Surely most of them were from rental companies (that may or may not be 'associated' with Cabair) and many leased from private owners who may not be too keen to lease them to the 'new' Cabair...

BillieBob

28th Oct 2011, 08:29

But how many aircraft did Cabair actually own?Define 'Cabair'. Cabair College of Air Training does not own any aircraft but Plane Talking Ltd, a separate company in the Cabair group owns 35, including all the DA40s and DA42s.

Genghis the Engineer

28th Oct 2011, 09:34

Define 'Cabair'. Cabair College of Air Training does not own any aircraft but Plane Talking Ltd, a separate company in the Cabair group owns 35, including all the DA40s and DA42s.

I believe that Wycome Air Centre owns quite a number also, which seems to be the one bit of Cabair group still carrying on and looking healthy. Presumably because it isn't/wasn't solely owned by Cabair group and was always run as a separate business.

I visited one of the other schools at Cranfield the other day, and had to walk past Cabair. Very quiet, very empty.

G

porridge

28th Oct 2011, 18:00

Back in the mists of time there were two principals of the said company, who were commonly referred to as Steve Greed and the other was called Colin Thiefcoat. Colin was the founder. Steve was reputed to have put the "S" in Cabair. It's very old joke I know, but two things remain constant: "many a true word is said in jest" & "leopards don't change their spots".
So sad for all the poor b*st*rds who lost their money/jobs. Regretfully there is not much justice in the world and the top dogs usually come out wealthy and smelling of roses. I'm sure they will go on to do it again, as they know when it is a good thing, so don't be surprised who springs out of the shadows to relieve all of their hard earned!
I remember well the "carve up" when a certain Bournemouth FTO went bust and the erstwhile MD and said "Greed" bought it for a song from the receiver and went on to form EPTA.
Well as the classics declare "Caveat Emptor".

PPRuNeUser0173

29th Oct 2011, 06:01

I couldn't have put it better myself!

mad_jock

29th Oct 2011, 10:37

Anyone got any idea about how much they went under owing?

sarpanch

29th Oct 2011, 20:42

I went to the exhibition today in London. No cabair there, but what was interesting, the flybe director did a talk. When it came to the FTO's that they work with cabair was not on the slide nor was it mentioned.

chrisbl

29th Oct 2011, 23:23

Cabair is dead just like the parrot:rolleyes:

PPRuNeUser0173

30th Oct 2011, 10:10

Porridge mentioned earlier about Greed and Thiefcoat - there is another story about a little boy who kept nagging his Dad that all he wanted for Christmas was a cowboy outfit - so his Dad went out and bought Cabair!!

I wonder if thats what happened with the new owners?

Recently I have met some ex Cabair staff - all of them expressing how pleased they were to get out.

fiveo

30th Oct 2011, 13:48

Were there any flybe tagged students at cabair when it went pear shaped?

flyboyweeksy

31st Oct 2011, 10:24

Apparently we should know more today apparently. Should be the penultimate day for stuff... But I've heard this before....

FOUR REDS

31st Oct 2011, 10:38

Obviously no one wants to see the demise of yet another FTO / aviation company. However, the untold damage to the 'already dodgy' reputation of this company will be difficult to set aside.

I cannot see CCAT contracts from BA, JE, Q8 and RB in the near/medium future. And (negative) word-of-mouth is very powerful!

But hey, I have seen stranger things happen.............. Good luck all.

Groundloop

31st Oct 2011, 16:09

This standard of teaching is much higher than normal ATPL's and as the ground instructors invulnerably don't distinguish between the two, modular ATPL ground school students get a better than standard teaching level.

It should not be - and probably isn't. One would expect the standard of teaching to be good for all students. The university connection makes no difference to the standard of the ATPL groundschool.

mad_jock

31st Oct 2011, 17:12

Some academics although highly intelligent are the worst teachers on this planet.

You also get some that are pretty thick actually in the grand scale of things but utterly brilliant at teaching thier subject, they are getting few and far between.

Unfortunately the way the whole system is setup its research, paper writing, and submitting research grants which is the main asset of an academic to a department.

So far from being centres of excellences for teaching university are in some ways lagging far behind the rest of the training and teaching profession. But then again they arn't really in the business of teaching. Part of skills learnt doing a degree is self learning, personal discipline and organising information. None of which can be done if the student is spoon fed every detail.

Which is why the ATPL degrees arn't worth the paper they are written on for anything academic.

Gomrath

31st Oct 2011, 18:59

This thread seems to be deteriorating rapidly downwards.
Can it stick to the subject matter or else it is likely to draw to a close.

paco

31st Oct 2011, 19:04

Hear hear - and I hope Cabair stays running.

Gomrath

31st Oct 2011, 22:17

OK I think enough is enough. We want to keep this thread alive but if it continues to spiral downwards it will be closed.

Cross J

31st Oct 2011, 23:03

I remember these two fine and honorable gents from years ago at Elstree
it all went wrong it seems when the demure Julia left -- I wonder why?;)

simonabc1

1st Nov 2011, 10:01

I feel very sad at what is happening at Cabair and also what i'm reading. The main concern has to be the students who have paid up front and now find themselves in the situation that they've probably lost their money, and the instructors who have been left without a job and owed 4-6 weeks wages. Speaking as a past Cabair student, I have to say that in general i was happy with my time there. Yes, there were a few problems and niggles, but the standard of teaching, both in Ground school and Flight school was very good. The majority of the staff were excellent and if ever there was any gripes with them, it was because they set a high standard and wanted the students to succeed. Ground school was very demanding but that's the way it should be and Flight school was well organised and disciplined. The aircraft were all well maintained and we had the advantage of training on modern glass cockpit aircraft. The biggest problem, in my opinion was the management. In any business, the figures have to add up to succeed and if they don't, then adjustments must be made to correct this. We are in one of the worst world recessions of recent time and very few businesses can boast healthy growth. Cabair should have closely monitored the situation and made vital business decisions accordingly, irrespective of how unpopular they would have been to safeguard their position and the position of the students and instructors. I cannot see Cabair, with all the bad publicity that it has received recently, survive this. If new owners come in, then it will need to re-open under a new name and a firm new business plan must be put in place and adhered to. There should be daily, "hands on" running of the business by the owners to ensure that it succeeds and safeguards should be put in place for the unexpected.
I genuinely hope a solution can be found to save Cabair and the student's money but regrettably i can't see this.

timeforclarity

1st Nov 2011, 12:09

Like a phoenix from the flames.

FOUR REDS

1st Nov 2011, 12:15

Never seen so many 'First Posts' on here. Who are all these people?

ALEXA

1st Nov 2011, 15:42

See below, from today's London Gazette

I don't know just how central to the rest of Cabair this company is.

In the High Court of Justice No 9121 of 2011
CABAIR INTERNATIONAL AVIATION LIMITED
(Company Number 07464761)
Nature of Business: Others - Not Reported.
Registered Office of Company: Cabair Building, 1 Cranfield Airfield,
Wharley End, Cranfield, Bedford.
Principal Trading Address: Cabair Building, 1 Cranfield Airfield,
Wharley End, Cranfield, Bedford.
Date of Appointment: 20 October 2011.
Joint Administrators’ Names and Address: Nigel Geoffrey Atkinson
and Mark Robert Fry (IP Nos 001502 and 008588), both of Begbies
Traynor (Central) LLP, 32 Cornhill, London EC3V 3BT Further
details contact: Natasha Manyande, Tel: 020 7398 3729.

Wee Weasley Welshman

1st Nov 2011, 16:41

The mobile number listed on their website does not work. The landline number meet a voicemail message recorded by what sounds like a teenage girl.

Draw your own conclusions.

As the 2nd credit crunch bites there wilL be cause for Wannabes to be beware.

WWW

ALEXA

1st Nov 2011, 17:23

I've also spotted that a company called "Over the Pond Limited" with the same address at Cranfield is also now in administration, with the same named administrators.

As before, I have absolutely no idea how this fits into the Cabair structure and what implication it has for any other companies.

FOUR REDS

1st Nov 2011, 17:52

As I indicated previously C.I.A. was to be the compamy to carry-on the CCAT business from Cranfield.

With Administrators appointed coupled with the outstanding liabilities of the Cabair organisation, the chance of the Phoenix (now there is a name from the past at EGTC......) rising out of the ashes / fire surely is remote!

Having been made redundant myself a few times before I have never seen Administrators (aviation business) succeeding in selling-off the compamy. Lots of talk of course!!!!!!! And a nice little earner for their company.

So long guys! :yuk:

QED

Lightning Mate

1st Nov 2011, 18:12

With Administrators appointed...

Now you really are p:mad:ng me off FOUR REDS.

Are not REDS Communists!!!!!

So long guys!

Great idea!

Get the facts....there are no appointed administrators.

I know far more than you do.........

student88

1st Nov 2011, 19:02

To those students of Cabair who haven't lost everything, walk away with your money and put it under your mattress. I wouldn't even trust a bank with it, let alone a failed FTO.

Sit the winter out and see how the economy sits in the spring. Things are going to get rough. Theres no point in training CPL ME IR MCC at the moment. Maybe ATPL theory, but distance learning. No point in rushing to get a licence now.

Sometimes it's hard to accept the facts.

Before anyone says it I'm not being negative, just realistic.

S88

mad_jock

1st Nov 2011, 19:08

To be fair to the poster Lightning he is correct and the search does come up with a load of hits.

Maybe a phone call to the number would be in order. Wouldn't be the first time that someone who thought they were in the know was shafted as part of the grand plan of certain people.

Linerider

1st Nov 2011, 19:31

Don't be so silly and gullible you stupid person!!!!

If you disagree with others, please convey it in a calm and adult manner without being rude. Hurling abuse at people only serves to devalue your own argument.

porridge

1st Nov 2011, 20:00

Everyone please look up what this company does - they are professional liquidators & administrators of insolvency.
Now in 2003 I worked for a company in Shoreham that went in to voluntary liquidation, they owed me about £1500 in wages, guess how much I got after the administrators -Begbies Traynor - took their very, very, very expensive fees? Square root of BA!:{

porridge

1st Nov 2011, 20:29

1. So I have company that is in the Sh1t. I sell it with a good order book and hide the fact that the VAT account is not actually an asset (someone very near to EGTK pulled this stunt in around 1998)
2. Next is that the poor gullible buggers who bought it find out is worth the square root of BA – & bring back the con artist who sold it to you and ask him to get your money back (give him carte blanche with an enormous bonus if he succeeds) – well in this case he did and he did do very nicely out of it.
3. Or you could do this – get it put into “voluntary Liquidation” and then the original owners make a private, non market related deal with the administrators (who they already recommended to the previous mugs) to buy the whole thing for a song (yes this is what happened at Bournemouth a few years back).
4. You get your company and assets and business back with all the attendant benefits back at the expense of the Staff & Clients
5. Back in business again – nothing lost (except the poor b*gg*rs who invested/paid up front) same old nice company cars and exec perks and your entire personal savings safe in your Jersey/lsle of man property/bank account.
Wow – and now I know what they mean by the term “businessman” no wonder pilots get shafted, they don't understand "aviation business":O

Gomrath

1st Nov 2011, 20:40

I don't know what your problem is, but please refrain from the insults, else I will report your offensive posts to the moderator.
Please stick to the topic and less of the snide comments from certain quarters.
This thread is becoming too high maintenance. If it continues folk will be banned and the thread closed.

Gomrath

1st Nov 2011, 20:53

chrisaviator
The thread will remain open for the time being and folk who make personal comments against other posters - in breach of the T&C's that were agreed to on signing up will be "sin binned"

and just to clarify - NO factual posts have been deleted from Pages 5-7 of this thread by any Mod.
The email to which you refer was later removed by the individual who posted it - presumably having reconsidered that an email between 2 parties was private.

chrisbl

1st Nov 2011, 22:06

It seems fairly clear that Cabair is in administration despite the outburst indicating other.

Publication Date: Tuesday, 1 November 2011
Notice Code: 2410
Appointment of Administrators
In the High Court of Justice No 9121 of 2011

CABAIR INTERNATIONAL AVIATION LIMITED
(Company Number 07464761)
Nature of Business: Others - Not Reported.
Registered Office of Company: Cabair Building, 1 Cranfield Airfield, Wharley End, Cranfield, Bedford.
Principal Trading Address: Cabair Building, 1 Cranfield Airfield, Wharley End, Cranfield, Bedford

Date of Appointment: 20 October 2011.

Joint Administrators' Names and Address: Nigel Geoffrey Atkinson and Mark Robert Fry (IP Nos 001502 and 008588), both of Begbies Traynor (Central) LLP, 32 Cornhill, London EC3V 3BT Further details contact: Natasha Manyande, Tel: 020 7398 3729.

BillieBob

1st Nov 2011, 22:27

It seems fairly clear that Cabair is in administrationNo, it is clear that Cabair International Aviation Ltd is in administration but that is only one company within the Cabair group. I don't profess to understand the convoluted relationship of the many companies within the group but I do, for example, know that the placing into administration of Cabair International Aviation has no immediate effect on Worldwide Aviation Holdings that owns, among others, EPTA.

This is not to say that there will not be a knock-on effect in the future or that other companies in the group will not follow CIA into administration. However, unless one is familiar with the structure and interdependence of the various companies, it is probably best not to make sweeping statements on the future of Cabair lest one makes oneself look a bigger pratt than one already has.