Typical Hours to complete IMC Course?

[Gav28]

Just a quick one for anyone who has done an IMC, how many hours should I realistically budget for? Obviously lots of factors to consider but just wanted to get an idea of whether people generally over shoot the 15hrs by much?

Cheers.

[Gav28]

Thanks, yeah just finished the Air Pilots manual 5 about to hit the confuser next.

Also people at my club recommended I get this RANT software;
RANT XL - Radio Aids Navigation Tutor (V3) - Computer Software - Pilot Warehouse (http://shop.pilotwarehouse.co.uk/product547000023.html)

Interested to hear if anyone has any views on it?

[Islander2]

15 Hrs and no need to pay for ground school.Waste of money.Just study the Air Pilot Manual 5 and Confuser.Oh what a thoroughly responsible approach to the achievement of instrument privileges!

And people wonder why the IMCR receives so much criticism from some quarters. :ugh:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

After 15 hours my instructor thought I was ready for the test after one more lesson. I was unconvinced. The "one more lesson" showed that I was correct:(

Book 5, Confuser and RANT. Nobody has ever suggested to me that ground school beyond self study and the instructor's long briefings is necessary. The real exam questions seemed to be easier than the Confuser, containing far fewer silly trick questions for example. If you already have an adequate flight simulator you won't need RANT as well. I reckon RANT saved a couple of hours flying, ie paid for itself several times over - I can make much more sense of the holds and approaches if I've already "flown" them on RANT using today's wind forecast before I get into the aircraft.

All these points have been discussed at greater length in recent threads, either here or on Flyer.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Gav,

This is a very personal viewpoint. Others are sure to disagree.

I'm doing my IMC at the moment. I am about seven hours in at a good establishment and don't feel anywhere near half way through what has to be learned. Make no mistake, IMC is a difficult course!

In regard to training materials, I am using RANT and find it extremely good. One of its main virtues is that it is simple to get a quick grasp of and put into immediate use. Another virtue is that it is available to me both at home and at the flying club, where I can also get help with it from any instructor.

I do also have FS2000, but rarely if ever use it. I suppose it could be used for IMC work at a push, but it would be much more complicated to use and I would have to spend a great deal more time just learning to use it before I could employ it for learning IMC techniques. I believe in keeping things simple, so I'm sticking to RANT.

Yes you could probably learn all the theory you need to pass the written exam from just working through the confuser alone. But this means regarding all the theory as merely a tick-box exercise: something you just do and forget. It isn't. You need to learn your theory properly and know it.

In regard to hours flown, the IMC is now an old syllabus probably in need of being updated. So while I don't doubt that a really good and very current PPL might be able to complete the course 15 hours and pass the skill test, whether that person would be likely to feel competent, (or confident,) to fly in IMC I am not sure. Certainly, I wish to be competent to use the techniques of the IMC and have budgetted for 30 hours, or if necessary more, to complete the course.

One thing about the IMC that is not mentioned is the amount of technique, necessary for flying exercises, that has to be learned beforehand on the ground. It is not like PPL where you can fly twice a day and by that means shorten your course. I have had to cancel several flights because I have not yet felt comfortable with the technique I would be using.

There are quite a few people about who hold the IMC Rating but would avoid like the plague having to actually use the skills it entails. Invariably, these ratings are not renewed. If you intend to make serious use of the IMC, then you really need to take learning the skills it entails seriously. Instrument flying is a difficult skill to learn and it needs to be done properly.

Good luck.

Broomstick.

[IO540]

25hrs is probably the average. I took about that long.

Get yourself a copy of FS2004 or FSX and practice all the procedures at home. This will save you many hours and much money. In flying generally, and in instrument flying much more so, one should never get airborne unless one already knows what to do. For example there is no point in going flying at £150/hr or whatever to learn to track a VOR if you don't know how to do it! In instrument flying, the workload is high and one learns very little. Learning how to fly the stuff is best done on the ground, and flying is for consolidation.

For the single written exam, yes by all means get the Confuser. One needs to get the flavour of the questions into one's head - the CAA always plays word tricks. But if you can fly the procedures you will pass the exam anyway. And if you cannot fly every single IFR procedure, you are wasting your time doing the IMCR because it does give you exactly that privilege.

If you can, get your instructor (he will need an IR for this) to fly the FAA IR 250nm cross country flight with you (3 different approaches on it) and sign it off in the logbook appropriately, because should you decide to later do the FAA IR, you won't have to do it again.

[Johnm]

I did it in 15 hours (rather to my surprise) I would have thought 20 to 25 was reasonable and it was I expected. I used the excellent ground school facilities at White Waltham as well as Thom and the IMC Confuser. I've also used Microsoft flight sim to practice procedures.

I use the IMCR in anger as much as I can to keep current.

It is essential to thoroughly understand all the theory and procedures not just pass the exams and flight test if you intend to use the rating in anger, but whatever you do undertaking the training will make you a better pilot.

[jollyrog]

My instructor told me before I started to budget for 25 hours. I'm currently at 20h 10m and a lesson or two away from the test.

[Cricket23]

Whilst not 'my' thread, thanks for the replies. As I'm currently considering doing the course this is useful info - especially yours 'Broomstick'. Thanks.

C23

[Gav28]

Thanks very much for the helpful responses, very useful.

Think i'll definitely give RANT a go. I do also have a copy of FS2000, although i could probably do with a better PC and later version of FS to do it any justice.

My other concern is the distance of the nearest ILS/NDB approaches to my home field. I imagine the transit back and forwards is going to burn a fair bit of time, but then I like the club and don't really fancy moving.

Cheers

[SkyCamMK]

The hold is not a part of the IMC course but I can generally get most students through and mangage to include it. Instructors can make the course "difficult" and schools can stretch a point. IMC is not an IR and there is a good deal of myth asscociated with certain comments IMHO. IMC is a cloud break procedure for an instrument approach. Continuous IF is not intended. DH and MDH being 500 & 600 ft should be adequate and it is legal if unwise to fly 500 agl over open countryside. Lets not make it a big deal. This is UK, we have weather, fly in it and get some experience with an FI, IMC course or not.

[IO540]

IMC is a cloud break procedure for an instrument approach. Continuous IF is not intendedOh nooooooooooo pleeeeeeeeease not this old one again :ugh:

The privileges of the IMCR are what the pilot can do, 100.0% legitimately, and are laid out in the ANO. End of story. Nobody is entitled to infer an "intention" here. In any case, the IMCR dates back to the 1960s and most of those behind it back then are not around anymore.

An instrument pilot is as good as his currency on type, his understanding of procedures (ability to read, basically), and all this is closely tied up with access to a reasonably decent quality and adequately equipped plane (i.e. money and more money). You won't be current on the UK PPL average of 10-20hrs/year.

The holder of a gold plated JAA ATPL, flying a C150 in solid IMC, turbulence, is going to be massively overworked and will probably kill himself unless really current - just like the IMCR holder.

Nowadays, instrument flight is done 100% using a GPS and most procedures are a piece of cake in reality because one can see on the moving map where one is. Holds are similarly easy. It is only the training and checkride where GPS is not used, for old times' sake.

And yes you do have to learn to use that silly circular slide rule for the IMCR exam :) Pointless, since nobody will be dead reckoning in instrument conditions. It's all done using radio nav (GPS,VOR,DME).

[Johnm]

IMC is a cloud break procedure for an instrument approach. Continuous IF is not intended.

Cobbler's awls:ugh:

I use my IMCR routinely for continuous Instrument Flying in solid IMC and then arrival and approach. I've recently done SRA into Gloucester and ILS into Cambridge both in seriously crap weather, where mere glimpses of the ground until short final were the order of the day. Hard work but not stupidly so with GPS other radio aids and basic autopilot available.

As many others have said it's about currency, use it or loose it.

However I agree it's not an IR

[Shunter]

SkyCam - you are entitled to your opinion, however you will find yourself in the conservative minority. I have regularly used my IMC rating to take off and land in minima without issue. Whilst of course the desired objective is to cruise above cloud, without airway access this is not always possible and one has to assume this will occur as a worst case scenario. I've flown for extended periods in solid cloud due to Class A above me, and been perfectly happy doing so. An autopilot is of course a substantial aid in such circumstances.

If I'm current and comfortable I will happily use the rating to the limit of the privileges it confers. Some are not happy doing this, that is of course their choice.

By the way, the minima are NOT 500/600. That is a RECOMMENDATION. I have a clarification letter from the CAA pinned to my kitchen noticeboard affirming so.

Incidentally IO540, most IR tests these days use autopilot and GPS. Sure, you have to hand-fly the important bits, but all the examiner is looking for a good, safe flight - not a superhero.

[IO540]

However I agree it's not an IR

It isn't an IR because the IFR privileges are UK only, no Class A, 1800m vis. But the difference between the two can be pretty damn small - for a pilot who puts in the effort.

I was flying ~ 700nm Eurocontrol routes in Europe with just my IMCR, with an IR instructor in the RHS to make it legal, and all I had to get clued up on were

- working out valid Eurocontrol routings

- SIDs/STARs (easy - just read the plate and remember the vertical clearance stuff)

That was about it. The rest is just flying, and type specific knowledge. The skill set which is required to fly IFR in any CAS is suprisingly small. But we must not destroy the IR mythology; a lot of professional pilot self esteem and jobs are hanging on it :)

[SkyCamMK]

Of course you are all correct too, I do fly IMC at length on occasions but the average low hour PPL does not get the opportunity to stay current. The gifted, privileged and well trained are better off in these conditions and are usually outside of icing conditions too. I would love to have the baby IR (sorry) recognised more widely and have the IR in a different form. We have what we have and if we take away the mystique of IF for the newly qualified they will gradually perhaps learn to love it and be safe and more importantly capable. However as it is UK only and dying as we speak, what can be done.

I love being in a minority in lots of areas but thanks for biting and confirming that the debate is still alive and well.. I learned to fly in the early seventies when a flying day was basically one without fog! Merry Christmas everyone...

[IO540]

the average low hour PPL does not get the opportunity to stay currentIndeed true. One merely needs to keep currency a separate issue from the possession of the paperwork privileges, because the same comment can be made for an IR holder too.

Unfortunately there are many lapsed IRs too, in the private pilot population; in fact I think very few non-owners will keep an IR current. I don't think I have ever met an IR holder who is on the rental scene and whose IR is valid. Even most instructors who once held an IR have let it lapse, intending to renew it when they get the airline job.

I reckon the IMCR will live on, in some equivalent form.

The funny thing is that, pre-1965 or so, a basic PPL could fly in IMC. Some did get killed though.

[julian_storey]

Worth reminding people than an alternative to doing the IMC rating course in the UK would be to head out to the States and get an FAA IR.

With the collapse of the £ against the $ the FAA IR has got a little bit more expensive than it was, but it's still not going to be vastly more expensive than an IMC course in the UK. You can do it in a fortnight if you put your mind to it and in my view, you will get much more from it.

An FAA IR obviously gives you full IR privileges on an 'N' reg aircraft but a lesser known fact is that the CAA will give you an IMC rating on the basis of an FAA IR.

[IO540]

Julian, I am not sure you would knock off the FAA IR in just 2 weeks if you have zero instrument experience.

I did it in 2 weeks (26hrs total dual time) but I had ~ 500hrs, incl ~ 80hrs IMC time, and the IMC Rating from about 4 years previously. It was damned hard work and I was totally knackered every day. Yet, before starting, I considered myself to be a competent instrument pilot, able to fly any approach straight off the plate, and fully capable of European airway flight and procedures.

My estimate for a totally ab initio FAA IR would be 4-6 weeks.

What seems to be a very common path for owner-pilots I know personally is

UK PPL
UK IMCR
FAA PPL/IR (you get full credit for all your previous training on this)
Buy an N-reg plane

If N-reg is not available / not desired then

UK PPL
UK IMCR
FAA PPL/IR (you get full credit for all your previous training on this)
JAA IR (you get ~ 35hrs flying time credit for your FAA IR but still have to sit all 7 writtens)

offers a pretty cost effective route which I know some people are doing around now.

[julian_storey]

Julian, I am not sure you would knock off the FAA IR in just 2 weeks if you have zero instrument experience.

I did it in two weeks however . . .

1) I had done a lot of self studying before I went out.

2) I had passed the FAA Instrument written before I went using some excellent software from Dauntless Aviation (http://www.checkride.com)

3) It was hard work and most definitely not a holiday.


I agree that if you just rock up in the States having done no preparation, to do it in two weeks would be almost impossible.

Julian

[youngskywalker]

For the FAA Ir I managed it in 3 weeks with a spare week that I used for lying by the pool afterwards! All the training done on a twin Beech Duchess, exam done on first day, loads of self study in the months before. Give yourself plenty spare time for technical problems and weather.

Average hours for the UK IMC I would have guessed about 18-20?

[skydiver548]

I have around 80 hrs in total which include the 17.5 it took to get my IMC. I made the descision to do it in the UK, which took around 6 months but really gave me the chance to work on areas where I was weak between lessons on FS2004.

I did my PPL in 17 days in the USA, while I passed without problem I certainly wasn't prepared for the airspaces challenges North of London (compared with the open expanses of Florida). The IMCr has massively improved my flying, confidence and general navigation. I would definately recommend it too all.

[tdbristol]

In addition to those things already mentioned I also used:
- Tim's Navaid simulator
Tim's Air Navigation Simulator (http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/)
- OAT Media IMC DVD

And one key thing: I think I had a particularly good instructor.

I did it in just under 16 hours; Feb. this year.

[Gav28]

I notice that many people seem to recommend FS 2004, i have FS 2002 is there anything special about 2004 that makes it superior for practicisng instrument procedures or will 2002 suffice? Must admit i have never been a massive fan of FS but I will certainly give it a go alongside RANT for the IMCr.

Cheers.

[Sciolistes]

I completed my IMC in 17 hours. But a word of advice, make sure you get real IMC experience. Foggles and wot not are all very well, but there are still cues, there is nothing like the sudden onset of the white box teach you how to deal with the leans.

Self study ground school with Thom Book 5 and the RANT exercises were sufficient for the ground school.

The skill set which is required to fly IFR in any CAS is suprisingly small. But we must not destroy the IR mythology; a lot of professional pilot self esteem and jobs are hanging on it
So true. But bear in mind that professional pilots are generally operating more stringent criteria and in something considerably faster and due to their hours, are exposed to many more mistakes by themselves, other pilots and ATC. This does up the ante somewhat.

I notice that many people seem to recommend FS 2004, i have FS 2002 is there anything special about 2004 that makes it superior for practicisng instrument procedures or will 2002 suffice?
You would be better off with FS 98 or something that isn't as resource hungry. My gripe with FS generally is that I spend more time faffing with it than using so I just gave up. My preference is ELITE Simulation Solutions - The PCATD Leader (http://www.flyelite.ch). More expensive for the disc but no need for an up to date powerful PC. It is specifically designed for instrument practice and it shows.

[IO540]

I notice that many people seem to recommend FS 2004, i have FS 2002 is there anything special about 2004 that makes it superior for practicisng instrument procedures or will 2002 suffice?

Either is fine. No sim replicates the aircraft behaviour well, especially in pitch, but this doesn't matter since the job is to get the procedures into your head, and how the instruments respond, etc. You are not going for a scenic flight :) For a scenic flight, you might buy x-plane and the 20GB of NASA scenery....

[L18C]

It took me 21 hrs at a flight school in Florida, not including the actual test. Do lots of Flight Simulator practice to reduce the flying hours a bit. I did not think it was worth going to the US to do an IMC; there's not enough cloudy weather!