Please help me plan an airstrike !!

[rogerk]

You are an aircraft carrier anchored in International waters of the coast of Mozambique.
Your target is - 17°43'05.85"S 31°02'18.61"E
Your choice of aircraft is only limited to being capable of carrying a sufficient bomb load to destroy your target completely.
You are not allowed to violate any countries airspace except that of your target.
You will encounter some enemy aircraft activity but pilot competence is limited.
Please calculate time to target and return, type of aircraft used and bomb load.
:ok::ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Perhaps you need to speak to Green Leader?

[rogerk]

Good thought "Stacker" but the old Canberra would be a bit slow !!
:D:D

[Gnd]

A vulcan, with GR7 CAS and a nuke - 3.7 hrs

Looking at the tgt - a spade and a big Navvy might do the trick???????

[The Helpful Stacker]

"Hello Harare tower, this is Green Leader...."

[Green Flash]

You are an aircraft carrier anchored in International waters of the coast of Mozambique

Hmm, could be collaterol and they have suffered enough. You might want to consider doing something, er, 'special'?!;):E

A room for one in Den Haag, please!

[Gainesy]

Anchored? Bloody matelots and their cocktail parties...:E

[boswell bear]

An ATC Vigilant T1

Engine Off above 1000ft .......provided it hasn't quit already due to unservicablity.

Avoid enemy a/c using stealth capability and instructor ego cloaking device.

If engaged: Jettison Cadet and thermal to gain max height to allow victory in the ensueing turning fight.

Time to target sometime next year.


Bomb load: the breakfast leftovers curry devoured at lunch in the mess.

[Squirrel 41]

Early next year? Ah, so quicker than a CVS then..... :E

S41

[extpwron]

Think you may have the wrong longitude – latitude looks OK though.

Try typing “harare dictator” into Google maps.

[rogerk]

Sorry about that !!
Looks like a low level up Borrowdale Brook Road - a quick right hander - job done !!
:D:D

[airborne_artist]

Why bother with an aircraft carrier?

I'm sure $50,000 to a couple of Saffies would see a suitably-loaded truck across the border and on target within 48 hours. No need to own up to the UN, either.

Ask Mark Thatcher - I think he'd tell you who to call :}

[boswell bear]

GaiPilot will put in a diversion for us by mincing along Gaydon Road.

Eagle Pl would be a better approach as it points straight at the target.............no worries about left or right for the aircrew then! :ok:

[rogerk]

If this had been put in place we would not be bothering about
planning a strike !!

Operation Quartz - Rhodesia 1980 (http://www.rhodesia.nl/quartz.htm)

:mad::mad::mad:

[BluntM8]

Regardless of any subsequent plans, firstly ensure start-plan is set for some ungodly hour in the morning, just so the jets can be back for a the next wave. Ah....that's planning....

[Solid Rust Twotter]

If this had been put in place we would not be bothering about
planning a strike !!

Operation Quartz - Rhodesia 1980


Hindsight is a bastard, mate....:(

[trap one]

Why bother with a manned option? Use CALCM from a sub and you don't have to bother planning the return trip!

[Occasional Aviator]

Or CALCM from an aircraft.... surely TLAM from a sub!

Although I think the tomahawk's tiddly little warhead might not fulfil the original criterion:

sufficient bomb load to destroy your target completely

How about a Storm Shadow?

[minigundiplomat]

Send in the Royal Navy. An iPod would be worth a fortune in Zimbabwe!

[walter kennedy]

A bit of moral, political, and material support back in the '70s would have been more useful - the Rhodesians were our kith and kin - a wonderful functional country in which Brits today would be more at home in than present day England.
Why were you all so apathetic and passive back then when a bit of Britain was being torn to pieces? Why were (and still are) you so easily led by politicians and media people who have no interest in preserving the soul and vitality of your people?

[Compressorstall]

Why is the carrier at anchor? Surely it can't launch any aircraft?

[L J R]

MQ-9, no-one has to die!

[pr00ne]

walter kennedy,

"a wonderful functional country"

WHAT!!!!!!

Race discrimination of the worst possible kind, oppression of seven eighths of the nation by one eigth and despised and loathed by the rest of the world outside of the white South African minority and the National Front?

You have a very strange notion of wonderful and an even stranger notion of functioning.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Race discrimination of the worst possible kind, oppression of seven eighths of the nation by one eighth and despised and loathed by the rest of the world outside of the African Kleptocracies and their supporters?


So what's changed?:confused:

[pr00ne]

Solid Rust Twotter,

Good point, well made. Though much has changed, I have to concede your point.

However, the idea that the place was in any way wonderful in 1979 is ludicrous beyond belief. It was an abomination then, it's an abonimation now.

Mugabe needs sorting and sorting quickly.

Not by an air strike though...........................

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Back then it was a country with a functioning infrastructure, a farming sector that was able to feed the nation as well as export a large amount for foreign currency and a relatively stable economy from which the entire population benefited to some degree or another. It may not have been right in the eyes of the world but it worked. Chances are it would have continued to work with anyone but the choice of the UK and the USA, Mugabe, at the helm.

They've come a long way.:(

[Gnd]

Naaa! Still the Vulcan for me - or has the thread changed into a geopolitical spat??????

[dead_pan]

17°43'05.85"S 31°02'18.61"E
Not sure about your targetting - by my reckoning this is a rather barren looking field.

Weapon of choice - do you guys still use JP233s:ooh:? Could fly as low as you like, the local populous will be too ill or malnourished to notice.

[CirrusF]

You are not allowed to violate any countries airspace except that of your target.



So how are you going to manage that? Zimbabwe is land-locked....

Only way to do it is to persuade one of his inner-circle to knock him off. There must be at least one of them who is ripe for recruitment, given their poor short-term career/pension/life prospects. He'd have to be offered a cast-iron exfil plan and decent pension. Not easy, but it would be the only way to do it deniably.

[KiloB]

I have to wonder if pr00ne's strong comments about

"Race discrimination of the worst possible kind, oppression of seven eighths of the nation by one eighth" and "It was an abomination then"

are based on anything more substantive than reading 'The Guardian' and listing to the 'Biased Broadcasting Corporation'. His comments certainly bear no resemblance to the Country I lived and served in during that period. Rhodesia was successful and progressive and while not conforming to the "One Man one Vote - ONCE" electoral system sweeping Africa; it did its best to care for all its people. Large sums were spent on Health Care and Education for all; and not just by Government. As a small example, an uncle of mine who farmed there built & ran a school for about 200 of his labour's children. It was paid for totally from his own pocket. This is hardly an example of an uncaring and exploitive society.

As a member of the Forces, we were constantly being reminded of the importance of keeping the population on-side. War is rough, but in general these directions were adhered to. Levels of morale and training were high and ensured this. Yes I saw some horrendous sights during the war, but they were 99% perpetrated by the same people who are now exposed as a failed and uncaring Government.

Rhodesia was certainly very different to SA. I was transferred there in 1980 and never felt comfortable in that much more brutal and divided society. I certainly would never have considered service in the Military there.

pr00ne's profile shows him to have been successful in two dissimilar fields, so he must be both intelligent and adaptable. It just shows how easily even people of that calibre can be influenced by the "give a dog a bad name" rumour mill and the PC Brigade. It is stunning to me that people can even start to equate the life of the people of 'Rhodesia' with the current situation in Zimbabwe.

[rogerk]

Thanks for that posting - I could not have put it better myself.
As someone who also served in the Rhodesian Armed Forces it really gets my goat when people who were not there make sweeping statements about it being like South Africa in the days of apartheid.
We had two "black" battalions, run by black officers and NCO's who were fighting alongside "white" soldiers against Mugabe's terrorists.
If you really want to know what the war was like and what a nice guy Mugabe is type "Elim Massacre" into Google - you will need a strong stomach.
Thanks KiloB
:D:D:D
OK - back to the airstrike planning !!

[MrBernoulli]

pr00ne,

You, very obviously, don't have a clue about any of this. You wouldn't necessarily believe what you read in the 'Daily Sport' or 'The News Of The World', so why do you believe the 'other' sources you may have read? You certainly don't have personal experience of this to draw on, so what are the poorly informed sources for your offensive opinion?

[pr00ne]

MrBernoulli,

Sister lived in Rhodesia, I paid many visits, after I left the RAF, between 74 and 79. Relative lost on Viscount downed by SA7.

Still "very obvious" ?????????????

I have to concede the various points made about the comparison between SA and Rhodesia, the former was certainly a far more brutal and unpleasant regime, but the discrimination and oppression in Rhodesia, despite being far more subtle and less in your face, WAS there, WAS enshrined in law, WAS put in to practice, and was a disgrace. A disgrace that needed to be ended.

Mugabe is also a disgrace, a disgrace of a far worse kind. However that in no way justifies minority rule Rhodesia.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

So what's your alternative?

Reality please, no pipe dreams. A working solution was scuppered by the govts of the UK and USA with Carter taking **** advice from Jackson and Ashe. No idea who told Maggie that Mugabe was a good choice. How do we fix that now?


"It is bad to be oppressed by a minority,
but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority."
- Lord Acton

[pr00ne]

Solid Rust Twotter,

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
Lord Acton.

Mugabe is an absolute dictator, an evil corrupt dictator. What comes after him is the issue, not how WE fix him. It's not up to US to fix anything.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I didn't ask you how to get rid of Mugabe. That's easy given the right people and tools.

I asked for your alternative solution to the Zim problem in light of the fact that the old system didn't suit the rest of the world but seemed to work while the new system that everyone wanted doesn't. Pretty much every African country eventually heads in that direction (see SA set on that path) with the exception of Botswana which has some pretty canny businessmen from Anglo and other corporations calling the shots behind the scenes as their investments there are what keep the country going. The person originally chosen for the job didn't suit certain political screamers in the USA and for some reason, Soames didn't want him either. I have no doubt he'd have done a better job than Mugabe, something that was seen even back then by most who actually lived and worked there.

[MrBernoulli]

pr00ne,

Sorry for the late reply, but I have been 'distracted'. So you visited? OK. I was born and bred there of a multitude of generations in Africa, lived there for over 25 years, served in the Air Force ...... so it was MY country too. I saw the system in action, both pre- and post-Mugabe. The latter doesn't work, and never will. The country is well and truly fecked now and will never be anything like as productive - not even close. Some 'freedom'! All they have now is the 'freedom' to starve and die of cholera. It takes nous, brains, and a work ethic to make a go of it - 'independent' Africa has precious little of any of that. :rolleyes:

[Double Zero]

I happen to know a few South Africans with Zimbawe connections, both civil & earlier on military.

The standard phrase re. Mugabe ( and it comes from unrelated people ) is " where's the support to sort him out ? " - Oh that's right, there are no oilfields going...

As for the original question about a strike from an 'anchored' carrier, you seem to need either Harrier's or Tomahawks - I don't think even the conventional warhead on the latter would fail to get their attention.

JP233 was always a suicidal weapon, and yes I have seen it in use.

[ImageGear]

Some developing nations encounter colonialism, and when it has run it's course are advanced enough to recognise the potential benefits and disadvantages of the experience, making the transition to independence while discarding the inequalities and lack of enfranchisement. They grow rich and prosperous taking the best from both societies.

Other nations have not evolved sufficiently as a society when colonialism has fulfilled it's purpose, they suffer from exploitation and manipulation by governments and politicians pursuing self-agrandisement, exceptionalism and wealth. Their transition to independence is founded on suffering and greed, a lost opportunity not wholely of their making, but unfortunately necessary to ensure that at the next political "window of opportunity" they might rise above their circumstances and take a different road.

I trust that the "Different Road" is not long in coming for a number of Southern African nations.

Imagegear

[Hot 'n' High]

Pr00ne, while you may have some insight to the Rhodesia/Zimbabwe situation, may I quote our gardener when we left in 1970? “Boss, this is bad, verrry bad you leaving us!” Why? Because, in spite of a certain level of apartheid which would probably have resolved itself in the fullness of time, many “indigenous” Rhodesians/Zimbabweans realised what was in store when power transferred to Black Majority Rule.

What is very interesting, and something even I had not realised, are those who signed the death-warrant of 1000’s of “indigenous” Rhodesians/Zimbabweans who ended up dead down the mine-shafts of Matabeleland. I never really understood why Bishop Muzorewa’s government lasted such a short time. But I am but a sprog-Rhodesian compared to many on this site – and now I know!

“Nyerere of Tanzania and Kaunda of Zambia, however, objected at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Lusaka in August 1979, demanding that their protégés, Mugabe and Nkomo, leaders of the two main terrorist groups seeking power, should be included in any final arrangement for majority rule in Rhodesia.” ( Operation Quartz - Rhodesia 1980 ) On their hands lies so much “indigenous” blood!

But now, which ever way the “West” becomes involved – we are damned! Even Mbeki (due to family links) had his hands tied when reigning in Mugabe. What Motlanthe and Zuma will do is anybody’s guess – if Zuma wins the election as he probably will - given his comments on Dictators – or will the realities of power change his mind? Tribal politics is still rampant – everywhere including Africa!

God bless the “real Zimbabweans”. I lost a home – but many 1000’s of the true “indigenous” Rhodesians/Zimbabweans lost their lives – not to mention the White Rhodesians who have also died – as a result of Mugabe! And many more are dying daily!

rogerk – apologies that your thread has been totally hijacked – but, as I know you know, so many innocent people have died in that great land that academia takes a bit of a back seat on this one.

H 'n' H

[XV277]

As for the original question about a strike from an 'anchored' carrier, you seem to need either Harrier's or Tomahawks - I don't think even the conventional warhead on the latter would fail to get their attention.


To avoid anyone else's airspace from a Carrier in the Indian Ocean would involve the world's first carrier launched ballistic missile - mind you, if the target is that abrren field 12K north of Harare, maybe a MIRV warhead is the OP's planned solution!

[Modern Elmo]

Why were you all so apathetic and passive back then when a bit of Britain was being torn to pieces?

I blame the third act of the movie "Zulu," wherein Michael Caine laments that he is still alive and so many Zulus are dead.

[sisemen]

Why were you all so apathetic and passive back then when a bit of Britain was being torn to pieces?

Less of the "all" thank you very much. Some of us (probably quite a lot) were pretty hacked off with the dumb deal arrived at and could foretell the trouble that has subsequently occurred.

A good country ruined.

However, having said that, many Rhodesians moved to Oz and, almost without exception, I have found individuals to be arrogant pricks with more than a smattering of blatant racism. I appreciate that that is probably not all - just the ones that I have met both in business and privately (and that includes my late father and step-mother, my step brother and his wife and subsequent progeny) :yuk:

[Argonautical]

The target is wrong, just empty bush. If my memory serves me right (God, it is a long time ago now) , this is what you want :-

17 48 39 S, 31 03 12 E

[Double Zero]

XV277,

I take your point, but apart from there not being a lot the average country can do about it, aren't ballistic missiles rather staight-shooting & more inclined to go through people's airspace, with an irritating or downright alarming effect ?!

I'm sure the TLAM has extended range versions, or a keen Harrier pilot with some support along the way might manage a more suitable flightpath ?

Why the hypothetical carrier is at anchor remains a mystery - John Farley once described that one of his hairiest moments was during a sales push at the Spanish navy ( they still call it the Armada, so must have a sense of humour ).

J.F. Challenged the Captain of the small, veteran carrier 'Dedalo' " Try to stop me from landing on ".

The Captains' response was to anchor - in a big swell - and have the engine room make smoke - J.F. got the a/c down alright, but the crew were tardy with their tie-downs, leaving him playing the nozzles fore & back to prevent going over the side !

[Snapshot]

Interesting and equally very poignant debate too!
Not even looked at the target, just aware sea launched attack to overland!
No one mentioned the Buccaneer?
Be interesting using tactics and weps of the 'Bananajet' era to see if that so awesome platform could have worked?

Below a link to when it did work... extremely well but not in way it was intended!!!
Cassinga SADF 32Bn SAAF 24 Sqn Buccaneers Andries Marais (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrewbrooks1/marais.htm)

Fly safe everyone and god bless Zim
AB :D