R22 or R44: preference for rating

[screw fix diret]

Just after a concensus of opinion.

I need to gain a piston type rating. I haven't flown a helicopter for a few years. I have been told I would get to grips with a 44 more quickly than a 22 due to the 22 having less inertia.

It all comes down to money as the 44 is more expensive but might take less time to get proficient on, but the 22 is less expensive to keep current.

Any helpful views would be appreciated to a genuine enquiery.

Thanks in anticipation.

[Whirlygig]

Whereabouts are you? Does it have to be a Robinson? You might be better off with a Schweizer or a Bell 47.

Cheers

Whirls

[Runway101]

Probably also depends why you want that rating at the first place.

If it is just to stay current for the smallest amount possible also in the future, use the cheapest means (R22?) to do exactly that. If you want to get the grip of it fast, the R44 is the way to go. Many say it fly's not much different than the B206/OH-58.

Is it much more time consuming to get used to the R22? If you have been flying helicopters before, I am not sure if that statement is still valid. I always thought that can only be valid for student pilots with absolutely no rotorwing experience. I personally find the Schweizer without RPM governor (automatic RPM control) more challenging to be honest, and it simply feels like a tractor to me ;)

[biggles99]

As someone who has got a lot of airtime on both types, and someone who is a complete fan of the R22 (and the 44), here's my penniworth.

If you are under 40, a motorcyclist, have a quick reactions, a sharp mind, and are less than 14 stone, then the R22 is a great training aircraft. The one caveat is that you train with someone who has at least 750 hours on type.

If you are over 40, have had a sedantry job and are new to flying, then choose the R44.

60 hours learning in a R22 will cost 15k, 45 hrs learning in a R44 will cost 18k, but expect the costs to be around 5k to 6k more in a R44 over a 22.

But if you then go on and do a 44 type rating, and/or buy a R44, you are better off starting in a R44. The cost differential becomes neglible, and the benefit of learning to fly on a type you are going to buy far outweigh the money saved.

Hope this helps,

Big Ls.

PS, just re-read the original post. My points above remain valid, but if you are coming back to flying helis, then the 22 should be fine. Just do some accompanied flying once you've got the rating. Have you got a turbine rating?

[airborne_artist]

If you are over 40, have had a sedantry job and are new to flying, then choose the R44.

The OP was an RN RW driver in a former life, and now drives the big ali tubes :ok:

[dragman]

Take it down to the nuts and bolts and it's about cash. We'd all train on a brand new B3 if we had a money tree in the back yard.

Every helicopter is different in one way or another, but if you're talking about doing this for fun and keeping yourself current (rather than an employer) then there is NOTHING wrong with flying the 22. From an instructor's point of view, it's a very straight forward conversion to a 44 should you need/want to step up later. The inertia thing is not really an issue as you'll learn more about how to keep on top of RRPM in the 22.

However I do agree that, if you're a big lad, you may have to consider the 44.

DM

[screw fix diret]

I'm not quite 40, am definately no where near 14 stone, do ride a motorbike and am in practise on aeroplanes although I do have rotary turbine experience, but no piston rotary experience to speak of.

Thanks everybody for your replies. The local hire rate for Schwitzer is more expensive than a 22.

So the decision would appear to be fairly straight cut. It has to be.......



























the R22

Cheers

SFD:D

[Bravo73]

Before you commit to either, SFD, go for a '20 min trial lesson' in both. You'll soon make your mind up. :ok:

[screw fix diret]

That is a brilliant idea.

Thanks.

[206Fan]

Do a trial flight in a Raven II ;)

As bravo said you will soon make up your mind then :ok:

[nervouspassenger]

The other thing to bear in mind with the 22/44 dilemma is that with many schools/clubs, the 22's clock starts ticking when you start the engine. In the 44, it's more common for the clock to start when you raise the lever. So in the 22, you're spending a .1 on start and warm up and possibly another .1 on cooling and shut down. So that's .2 before you even fly. And as a go places machine, the 44 is at least 20kts faster in the cruise with a longer range between re-fuels. And it takes 4 adults, so more opportunity to fly with friends and cost share.

NP

[dragman]

While you're at it, do a trial flight in a EC130 too......

[screw fix diret]

But that has a turbine along with the associated costs.:confused:

[dragman]

Sorry, just my warped sense of humour regarding the suggestion of you paying for a trial in a Raven II.

Let's put this discussion into cars....

You want to learn to drive. You have two driving schools to choose from. One has a Ford Focus, one has a Ford GT40. You already know that you would loooooooove the GT40, but it's not going to make you a better driver, just a driver with less money.....

I'd personally pay for a 22.

[RINKER]

Watch out for the datcon thing argument re R22 / R44 .Yes the R22 datcon usually starts when you fire up the engine and the R44 when you lift the lever BUT most schools certainly round our way add .1 to every flight " to cover cost of fuel instructors time etc" so worth bearing in mind. I have had this waived on self fly hire with the school I most commonly use.
R

[biggles99]

SFD

your instinct is right -- the R22 is for you.

just remember to get an experienced instructor.

where are you based?

Big Ls.

[Whirlygig]

Let's put this discussion into cars....

You want to learn to drive. You have two driving schools to choose from. One has a Ford Focus, one has a Ford GT40. You already know that you would loooooooove the GT40, but it's not going to make you a better driver, just a driver with less money.....
But in this context and to further the analogy, the OP doesn't want to learn to drive as he has thousands of hours driving on the road; he wants to take a "return-to-biking" course having gained bike experience years ago on BSA Bantams!!

Now, should he relearn on a Yammy FS1E or an RD250? :}

Cheers

Whirls

[screw fix diret]

Now steady on! I'm not that old - BSA Bantams.

I learn't on a DT125LC then progressed onto a 600 Cagiva/600 Bandit/Burgman 400/Silver Wing 600/BMW k1200GT/Harley 1200 XLH & Honda Deauville (Maybe I'm am getting old). My next bike will be either or all of the new V-Max,rotary Norton or 90 deg cranked Yamaha R600 but the stock market needs to recover abit first.

[dragman]

My wife won't let my ride motorbikes anymore........ :{

[scooter boy]

SFD,
I would echo the above advice and go for the 22.
I've owned both a 22 and 44.
The 22 will make you a more sensitive pilot less expensively, just don't roll it into a ball.

Flying the 44 is a piece of cake after the 22.
Just watch the carb heat and be ready on the collective.

SB

[screw fix diret]

Told my Wife when she reached 36, I'd trade her in for 2x 18 year olds.

She said I wouldn't be able to keep up.

I've kept the Wife and the bikes:hmm:

[toptobottom]

It's still not clear why you need to be type rated on a piston machine nor what you'd use the machine for. As a biker and owner of both 22s and 44s (and using the car analogy), the 22 is like a Caterham - small, light, very manoeverable and very much 'seat of your pants', designed really for training and for the driver to have a lot of fun in, rather than serious and practicle transport.

The 44 on the other hand, is more like a Mondeo - more stable, faster, a great compromise between economy and performance, no bells or whistles but reliable and comfortable - plus you can take your mates up.

Despite the apparent similarities, they are complete different machines aimed at completely different requirements - ultimately it's your own circumstances and reasons for doing this that will determine which one is for you.

[Bravo73]

the 22 is <snip> designed really for training and for the driver to have a lot of fun in, rather than serious and practicle transport.

NB. Just to clarify, the R22 was specifically NOT designed for training.

[topendtorque]

You might be better off with a Schweizer or a Bell 47.



Martini for Whirligig on the '47 mention.

You say that you want to FLY a PISTON. forget the schweizer it's almost got correlation.

Find and old '47 with an equally old fair dinkum '47 driver and ask him to show how to fly the throttle box on his '47. Nothing else counts when it comes to learning pistons.

I mean fair dinkum, all of the (R?) models have elctronic correlation governer gizmos that mean you might as well be flying a turbine.

[TheMonk]

TeTI mean fair dinkum, all of the (R?) models have elctronic correlation governer gizmos that mean you might as well be flying a turbine.

TeT, at the end of every collective in every Robby 22s and 44s there's a switch that turns off/on the governor. My CFIs always turn those things off and make me use my wrist to control the RPM. As the RPM on R22s decay rapidly, I get a good workout.

[brett s]

The R22's throttle correlation works about a million times better than a Bell 47 - you make very little manual correction compared to the Bell.

That was the biggest change when I first started flying 47's as a brand-new PPL, and this was in the pre-governor days on the R22 too.