Early NVG and FLIR in UK?

[chopper2004]

Hi all

When did the old RAF/FAA/AAC and RAe start experimenting with FLIR, LLTV. NVGs? What is the earliest period? 1960s?:cool:

All i know is the first gen NVGs used were in Op Corporate for Sea King crews

[MightyGem]

As an aside, why is FLIR called Flir: as Forward Looking? Which way could it look before it could look forward?

[RETDPI]

The F-117 also had a DLIR (Downwards - Looking IR)

[ShyTorque]

I was involved in rotary flying in UK and RAFG using Passive Night Goggles (PNG) from 1979 onwards. We used to wear Mk1A helmet cloth inners and throat mikes. PNGs were not designed for aircraft use and it wasn't possible to wear a hard helmet with them (they were built on a plastic moulding which was held to the face by a head harness). Also, it wasn't possible to "look under" them onto the instruments. Therefore, we used to have to focus one tube on the instruments and the other one outside. :8

After those, Gen 1 NVGs were a revelation.

[L J R]

Those systems that only look forward are FLIR, (obviously!). They are often fixed to the centreline of the aircraft, but there are others that mistakenly called a FLIR, when they are technically in the family of IRDS - (IR Detection Systems) that can be rotated around - 360 in most cases, and those that can look up and down, forward and back (including 90 down and 90 rear) - most targetting pods have this capacity and can sometimes be projected onto a HUD or similar.....IMHO the term FLIR is stuck in the '70s, but just like most 'punter oriented' terms, the wannabees can relate to what they already know (eg only bombers bomb, and fighters fight ....)...

[941]

First PNG I saw was in 1975 on 103 Sqn in Singapore. One of our crews used them to descend into an upcountry clearing and sat there all night checking on how accurate the rest of us were at night navigation over the jungle. Most of us got within several hundred yards which was pretty good with only a clock, compass and maps marked "uncharted territory". The procedure was that one pilot had the goggles strapped on and flew the ac but he couldn't see any of the instruments and the other had to sit in complete darkness, read out things like, height, speed, attitude, rod and be ready to turn the cockpit lights on and take control in the event of an emergency. The crewman then did all he could to navigate (he was the only one who could see the map) and just about everything else! Changing radio frequencies was a nightmare. It was about 1977-8 when we were stopped from using them in N. Ireland after a series of very hairy incidents which bent a few aircraft and any one of which could have been a nasty accident.

[chopper2004]

941,Was that with Wessex or WHirlwind? Didn't 103 disband in 75?

Looking at the 60s with regard to the Vietnam War and the technologies associated with it, such as AC-130, B-57G, YO-3A, UH-1M INFANT, AP-2H etc etc fitted with LLTV, FLIR and night vision systems so what else in the Uk had similar specialized avionics fit

Also when reading on the DARPA / CIA 'Quiet One' Hughes 300 fitted with 1st gen NVG and FLIR equipped cockpit back in late 60s/early 70s quite fascinating.

So after the RAF I guess the FAA and AAC followed suit with NVGs and FLIR in the 70s??

[941]

Chopper 2004, that was with Wessex HC2s when we were part of UNZUK forces based at Tengah. I left in 1976 and 103 Sqn was disbanded in 1977 I think it was. If you were there you will know what 941 means!

[ARRAKIS]

To my knowledge, different tests and research started before WWII. The first system tested/used was probably the "Tabby" series of monoculars and binoculars. There was a Tabby monocular (Tabby E?? - have to check this), designed for aviation use.Arrakis

[Wwyvern]

We tested CAVNAV goggles in NI in Oct 73. Scared the bejasus out of several flocks of sheep plus the non-CAVNAV goggle "safety pilot".

[Fareastdriver]

I’m with Wwyvern. Oct 1973 is what my log book says when we first started stumbling about with Cavnavs. The first ones were useless in a Puma owing to reflections from the co-pilot’s instrument lighting. They were; however, perfect for belting a Land Rover around a crowded exercise area without any lights on. You would see lots of RMPs diving into ditches.

It got more serious in April 1974 and the goggles eventually matured into ones that had a better contrast and would attach to the visor slide. I did a considerable amount of training and teaching during that period and it required a lot of co-operation between the pilot who thought he could see what was going on and the pilot who thought that the other could see, or vice versa. A visual limit was described as ‘quarter starlight’ i.e. the same as a person with good night vision. That I had and that was the only reason why I was prepared to teach the technique.

There were some appalling close near-misses which is why they dropped it until the equipment improved. The worst I heard about was one sculling low level in South Armagh, went into low status and decided to throw it away. He climbed on a Westerly heading and during the climb the radalt was spiking on the 100 ft. setting. He came out of the tops and right in front of him was the Forkhill trig point.

Even better was IR Nite Sun. That was where you really had to have a sense of humour. Especially the co-pilot as he watched the aircraft plunging earthwards in total darkness with the pilot and crewman arguing the toss between each other.

My first experience of fixed external optical systems was a Lowlite TV system. This was mounted on the Pershore Puma and I was asked to fly it to Odiham by reference to this alone to give an assessment. When the team fitted it they had decided to use the load pole hatch so when you switched it on on the ground you had a perfect picture of the back of the nosewheels. The other modification was a piece of black tape over the u/c warning light to stop it blinding you when you retracted the gear in the hover so you could see which way to go. The camera was fixed straight ahead so I was lost shortly after passing the airfield boundary. It got better at 3,000 ft. and motorways were easy as long as they were going in the same direction as you were.

On arrival at Odiham we went to the old 33 Sqn dispersal on the South side. There was an official visit going on with lots of senior officers and the like. It was an easterly wind so I lined up with the perimeter track as a guide to the dispersal. As I required the undercarriage to be up in order to see where I was going I had a TV picture full of high ranking officers all frantically waving and gesticulating at this Puma on short finals with the gear up.

Never flew anything like that again until the Solomon Islands a couple of years ago.

[phil gollin]

Lots of slightly different "tabby" equipments used in the last year or so of WW2 and just after.

The British Nightfighters had some sort of infra-red i.d. equipment to check friend/foe of returning bombers.

.

[Low Ball]

I was an instructional Flight Commander at Middle Wallop from '73 to '76 and was posted to NI as the Theatre QHI in early '77. PNG were being trailed by D&T Sqn in the latter part of my time as the Flight Commander and I was cleared C to I on PNG on both Scout and Gazelle. There were 2 types of PNG around at the time, monofocal and bifocal the latter allowed one to see the instruments. Both types had a bracket which screwed onto the visor track. The PNG were mounted in a plastic frame which prevents you from looking out of the side and were designed for use by vehicle drivers. During a recce to NI to assess the roles for my new appointment I was shown how PNG (procured as a UOR) were being used at the time. There was no permenant QHI in theatre at the time and the rules and training were being made up on the hoof under the guise and protection of operational necessity. They were hand held (no helmet fitting in the Province at the time) by and Inf JNCO in the left hand seat of the Scout giving directions to the pilot who was flying mortal. THese Inf JNCOs wouldn't recognise a sight picture approach if one jumped up and bit them. I was proadly shown a Scout which half a hedge wrapped round the skids. On taking up the appointment I stopped this lunacy and it's very lucky no one had been killed in the interim. More PNG and helmet brackets were quickly introduced and formal training, 10 hours, was completed when crews, both pilot and crewman, were cleared for operations. As time progressed equipment became available for pre NI training in UK and BAOR and I recall spending time with incoming aircrew training them before arrival in their own theatre. Time passed as a staff officer and other appointments which took me away from flying duties and when I returned ANVIS had replaced the PNG and I was qualified on Lynx. On a further return we were issued with a Ferranti set of goggles which were good and before deploying on GW1 each crewmember was issued with his own personal issue. Flying on NVG in the desert was awesome. Happy days or rather nights with some 200hrs on NVG and alive but with lots of grey hair.

LB

[Softie]

Initial trials of NVGs on Fast Jet aircraft were carried out on Jaguar at Coltishall in 1981/82. I was a first tourist OC Avionics and my OC EES kept this trial very much as his pet project. I believe some rudimentry filtering was applied to cockpit lighting as cockpit were not NVG compatible. I recall that the NVG had to be removed manually before any consideration of pulling the ejection handle. There were various trials during the 1980s under the Nightbird programme. Fleet incorporation on Jaguar did not start until the first Gulf War under SEM procedures.

[ericferret]

There was more than near misses. Gazelle XW900 crashed at Soest during pre NI NVG training in 1976. Both pilots walked away I'm glad to say.;

[Double Zero]

Certainly not the earliest uses ( and low how about light TV ? Martel was another thing I saw stashed away but not ever used again ) ...

Once when sailing my little 22' boat across Lyme Bay say 10 miles offshore in 1979/80, at night with no lights on - it was then a total loss battery system so nav' lights only used when any boats came close -we were most definitely ' intercepted by ' a Lynx - I knew the sound - hovering equally unlit very close ahead of us.

I did what was then the text-book sailor's answer to colregs / ID and shone a bright light on the mainsail for ID no. & up- I hope I didn't bother the chap with the early NVG's too much, didn't know what I know now !

The Sea Harrier FRS1 experimented with NVG's from early ( 1981 ? ) days, but I have no idea when it went into service.

I do know there was a competetion between A&AEE / St.Athan V. BAe for the Harrier 'Nightbird' project where G-VTOL's interior lighting was all adapted to suit; despite that, in an early precursor of QQ V. BAes, the other lot won.

The ARBS was quite capable of having IR fitted, but as I recall it was all of £65,000 per unit more than the lump on top of the nose as now.

I can see the advantage of not relying on one lens / system, however the IR ARBS might have been more versatile ?

I realise some modern systems make this a question of history.

[rab-k]

As as lad I can recall messing about with such things in the early 80's - my old boy, a boffin with Ferranti in Edinburgh, let me try out the NVGs he'd been using for the Harrier Nightbird programme. My recollection is of standing in the dark-room at his work and making impolite gestures towards him, only inches from his face. Needless to say he was none the wiser, hence I could continue to sit down in comfort for the next two weeks. :E

[bvcu]

What about 'hecate' the lady of the night. RAE Farnboroughs T7 Hunter ? Was doing some interesting work in early 80's as she used to come and do night flying with us at a secret airfield in wiltshire , had to have all the lights of on the airfield . Got shown some very interesting footage afterwards of low level flying with it. Think at that stage the programme had been running for some time.

[Spurlash2]

Double Zero,

The Navy (?) Lynx may well have carried out an internal aids letdown using radar/TANS/FCS to position himself by you. SeaKings did it all the time.

Then again, he may well have been using Night NVG goggles.

[Total Reaction]

Cavnav in 1976 as a positioning aid in rural NI, not really an act of war but they did help in navigation (right field, right side of the border!) trained by a great guy sadly not with us now (S Vatsendale) then on to PNG in 77 and while I try not to confuse change with progress ANVIS most certainly was.

[green granite]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/orangeherald/books_002.jpg

[chopper2004]

Certainly not the earliest uses ( and low how about light TV ? Martel was another thing I saw stashed away but not ever used again ) ...

Once when sailing my little 22' boat across Lyme Bay say 10 miles offshore in 1979/80, at night with no lights on - it was then a total loss battery system so nav' lights only used when any boats came close -we were most definitely ' intercepted by ' a Lynx - I knew the sound - hovering equally unlit very close ahead of us.

I did what was then the text-book sailor's answer to colregs / ID and shone a bright light on the mainsail for ID no. & up- I hope I didn't bother the chap with the early NVG's too much, didn't know what I know now !

The Sea Harrier FRS1 experimented with NVG's from early ( 1981 ? ) days, but I have no idea when it went into service.

I do know there was a competetion between A&AEE / St.Athan V. BAe for the Harrier 'Nightbird' project where G-VTOL's interior lighting was all adapted to suit; despite that, in an early precursor of QQ V. BAes, the other lot won.

The ARBS was quite capable of having IR fitted, but as I recall it was all of £65,000 per unit more than the lump on top of the nose as now.

I can see the advantage of not relying on one lens / system, however the IR ARBS might have been more versatile ?

I realise some modern systems make this a question of history.

Was speaking to some former Mighty Hunter pilots few years back at Farnborough (one of whom worked for Airbus) and I casually asked if early Nimrods had any LLTV as US Navy P-3A/B was equipped LLTV. Latter more for use during the SEA for Market Time operations . Anyhow apparently the Nimrods did not have any E/O let alone LLTV fitted in....

cheers

[Mogwi]

One of our ex-Boscombe Junglies on Hermes in ‘82, had liberated some Gen 3(?) NVGs and brought them with him. I tried them out in the SHAR cockpit and decided that they would be useable after a bit of chinagraph (grease) pencil work on some of the cockpit lights.

Our first option to take out the runway at Stanley was to use them to deliver KFFs in a 30 degree dive at night, with a release height of c3000’. This was a good wheeze against light defences but we had second thoughts when we discovered the bad guys had radar-laid 35mm and Roland missiles. Never did get to fly with them although the Junglies made very good use of them.

Mog

[chevvron]

At one point in the trials, an RAE Varsity was fitted with both LLTV and FLIR sensors side by side in the optical 'flats' in the bomb bay. The OC Flying at the time rather took to this system and one night, on returning from a trip through Wales, decided to do a couple of circuits.
He did a circuit carefully observing the features visible on the ground via the CCTV screens on the flight deck and on the tape afterwards, I heard him say 'yes I'm very happy to do a landing on that'..
On his 'go for it' final landing, he positioned the aircraft on final and lowered the gear, only to find (amongst the expletives on the tape) the nosewheel effectively blocked the view of the runway so he had to do a visual landing after all.
Initially we (ATC) would 'kill' the airfield lighting before takeoff using the 'airfield blackout' selection on our lighting panel however it was quickly found that the pilots flying the trials kept telling us the airfeld lighting was still on. When our techies looked at the wiring, they realised the 'airfield blackout' had been designed for wartime use and there was still a very tiny current running through the wiring (to keep the lights warmed up and avoid blowing transformers) and thus a small amount of IR radiation was being emitted so in future, they made sure the lighting circuits were really cold and then put out 4 low powered 'glim' lamps (one either side of each threshold) on the runway for reference.

[walbut]

I am currently editing Roger Searle's autobiography, in conjunction with a few of his colleagues from BAe Brough and Holme on Spalding Moor. He wrote that he carried out what he believed was the first night low level, low light television sortie from RAE Farnborough in Hunter T7 XL383 on 12th Jan 1976. Harry Maclean, an ex RAF Lightning pilot was the safety pilot. Roger passed away on 16th April 2020.

[Paying Guest]

At one point in the trials, an RAE Varsity was fitted with both LLTV and FLIR sensors side by side in the optical 'flats' in the bomb bay. The OC Flying at the time rather took to this system and one night, on returning from a trip through Wales, decided to do a couple of circuits.
He did a circuit carefully observing the features visible on the ground via the CCTV screens on the flight deck and on the tape afterwards, I heard him say 'yes I'm very happy to do a landing on that'..
On his 'go for it' final landing, he positioned the aircraft on final and lowered the gear, only to find (amongst the expletives on the tape) the nosewheel effectively blocked the view of the runway so he had to do a visual landing after all.
Initially we (ATC) would 'kill' the airfield lighting before takeoff using the 'airfield blackout' selection on our lighting panel however it was quickly found that the pilots flying the trials kept telling us the airfeld lighting was still on. When our techies looked at the wiring, they realised the 'airfield blackout' had been designed for wartime use and there was still a very tiny current running through the wiring (to keep the lights warmed up and avoid blowing transformers) and thus a small amount of IR radiation was being emitted so in future, they made sure the lighting circuits were really cold and then put out 4 low powered 'glim' lamps (one either side of each threshold) on the runway for reference.

Remember that sortie well. Came over from Boscombe to do an associated ride along trial as flight test observer and yes, the expletives were interesting, if not particularly educational, when he discovered the relative locations of camera and nosewheel, though my memory suggests an overshoot and goaround as the result. The display was very impressive during the Welsh LL portion of the trial. Without digging out my log book memory suggests mid 74 or early 75.

[NutLoose]

Initial trials of NVGs on Fast Jet aircraft were carried out on Jaguar at Coltishall in 1981/82. I was a first tourist OC Avionics and my OC EES kept this trial very much as his pet project. I believe some rudimentry filtering was applied to cockpit lighting as cockpit were not NVG compatible. I recall that the NVG had to be removed manually before any consideration of pulling the ejection handle. There were various trials during the 1980s under the Nightbird programme. Fleet incorporation on Jaguar did not start until the first Gulf War under SEM procedures.


They tinkered with them in RAFG about the same time, I seem to remember they turned all the airfield lights off while the trials were going on, About 82-83 ish.

Odiham I remember them playing with it in the Wessex 77-78 ish, a mate of mine on 72 had to go sit in a field somewhere in the cold while they pissed about in a Wessex, I remember him telling me the vehicles had to be cold, and also some under nets and the bods had to be cold too, which they were, they then had to jump about to warm up and the vehicles were run... Long and the short of it, he wasn't amused by it all having spent the night being pissed about..

The first Chinooks when they arrived were NVG compatible I seem to remember.


..

[Yellow Sun]

Was speaking to some former Mighty Hunter pilots few years back at Farnborough (one of whom worked for Airbus) and I casually asked if early Nimrods had any LLTV as US Navy P-3A/B was equipped LLTV. Latter more for use during the SEA for Market Time operations . Anyhow apparently the Nimrods did not have any E/O let alone LLTV fitted in....

cheers
LLTV\IR was one of those subjects that was regularly aired on the Nimrod force, but the killer question was "What use would it be in wartime?". The answer was "Not a lot". There was a low light device called the Nimtan sight, supposedly intended for use on both the Nimrod and Chieftain tank but rejected for both roles. A few were employed for ground defence surveillance; that's where I saw them.

Corporate caused all sorts of bits and pieces appear. We were given a few pairs of early NVG, used hand held, and version of the Steadyscope monocular with a simple image intensifier. Neither were particularly impressive. there was a discussion about replacing a beam window with an IR transparent panel and mounting a large IR device in that position but it came to nought and it's hard to see what use it would have been. After all, we had Searchwater that was a very capable piece if kit and was a much better option.

If we had to do a peacetime night vis-ident, there was the searchlight, but if you were inhibited from directly illuminating the target, flying past it at about 4" lens photo distance and triggering the Chicago Flash was more that adqequate to confirm a vessels identity.

YS

[bspatz]

I was one of the supply officers at Odiham in 1982 when the Falklands war started and recall being tasked with collecting together all the NVGs that could be found around the RAF most of which seemed to come from fast jet stations. I was previously unaware of the existence of NVGs and cannot recall any arriving at Odiham prior to the war. This was seen to be a fairly sensitive matter and although most were destined for use by the Chinooks we acted as a central distribution point issuing NVGs to other force elements as directed by HQSTC.

[wiggy]

Initial trials of NVGs on Fast Jet aircraft were carried out on Jaguar at Coltishall in 1981/82. I was a first tourist OC Avionics and my OC EES kept this trial very much as his pet project. I believe some rudimentry filtering was applied to cockpit lighting as cockpit were not NVG compatible. I recall that the NVG had to be removed manually before any consideration of pulling the ejection handle. There were various trials during the 1980s under the Nightbird programme. Fleet incorporation on Jaguar did not start until the first Gulf War under SEM procedures.

If I recall things correctly the Phantom detachment "down south" started getting at least some helmet mounted NVGs early '83.

As you say the cockpit lighting had to be modified.

[safetypee]

RAE Bedford had a forward looking Low Light TV installed in the HS 748 used by the Blind Landing Experimental Unit - early 1970s. It was not IR based, just enhancement.
No great improvement, just differed from normal vision in the same conditions.

The system was used in the late 70s to gather raw video for an unknown future system of 'active TV'.
Low level flying - 100 ft in Wales, Scotland and Germany.

[chevvron]

We were given a few pairs of early NVG, used hand held, and version of the Steadyscope monocular with a simple image intensifier.

In NVG trials for jast jets (we operated the Jaguar at Farnborough as well as Hecate), the sponsors lent us a pair of NVGs so we could take a 'last look' at the gear as they were coming in to land. Once you got it pointed the right way you could see a nice clear picture but it was getting it sighted in that was the problem.
I don't think they managed a full stop landing with the Jag using NVGs; that was reserved for the 'official' landings at Boscombe, but we did several with Hecate. The ops at Farnborough were never really publicised like the Boscombe ones were.

[BEagle]

On 14 May 1982, I did a night trial in an F-4 from Wattisham with a Harrier whose pilot was doing an NVG trial. Very late at night, so really dark - he spotted us very easily and read the registration no. XV404 very easily, with all our lights out.

Then he asked me to put an engine into A/B.... Immediately there was a brief call of 'knock it off' as it had virtually destroyed either his night vision or the NVGs!

[chevvron]

Remember that sortie well. Came over from Boscombe to do an associated ride along trial as flight test observer and yes, the expletives were interesting, if not particularly educational, when he discovered the relative locations of camera and nosewheel, though my memory suggests an overshoot and goaround as the result. The display was very impressive during the Welsh LL portion of the trial. Without digging out my log book memory suggests mid 74 or early 75.
Don't wish to haggle but it wasn't '74; the main runway was being re-surfaced for most of the year then we were straight into the airshow and after that, OC Flying (Wg Cdr Clive Rustin) was 'moved on' to Boscombe for reasons I won't disclose although his successor Wg Cdr Dave Bywater did tell me.
Clive had another er 'problem' while at Boscombe (which was featured on TV) and when I met him at Bruggen (visiting in my alter ego as an RAFVR(T) officer) in 1986, he was still a Wg Cdr. Tells a tale doesn't it.
After this came Wg Cdr Ian Strachan who is the one I remember as 'adopting' the Varsity trial.

[teeonefixer]

I am currently editing Roger Searle's autobiography, in conjunction with a few of his colleagues from BAe Brough and Holme on Spalding Moor. He wrote that he carried out what he believed was the first night low level, low light television sortie from RAE Farnborough in Hunter T7 XL383 on 12th Jan 1976. Harry Maclean, an ex RAF Lightning pilot was the safety pilot. Roger passed away on 16th April 2020.

I'll be interested in that when your book comes out to put this story together. I spoke to Roger briefly a few years ago after a RAeSoc meeting and he described his first flight with low light capability as meeting all the planned targets in one go, they went straight into low-level high speed flight with real confidence.
A colleague picked up the work to fit an earlier Chisel nose onto XV344 for the TICM II trials. I believe it came from S,1 XN923 (now preserved at Charlewood, near Gatwick).
His work flying Harrier at Boscombe should also be interesting. These guys certainly earned their pay !

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x371/bucc_s1_xn923_b64cecf67dfef7579654ccf1cd41f67b09673940.jpg
XN923 A&AEE photo rescued from a retired Designers desk !

[xtp]

I joined RAE Avionics Flight in Jan 74 and flew on both Sea King low level LLTV trials and one trip in a Wessex at night using NVG with our Army helo tp who was trialling NVG at the time. No FW FLIR on Avionics Flight at that time as far as I am aware..

[CharlieJuliet]

In NVG trials for jast jets (we operated the Jaguar at Farnborough as well as Hecate), the sponsors lent us a pair of NVGs so we could take a 'last look' at the gear as they were coming in to land. Once you got it pointed the right way you could see a nice clear picture but it was getting it sighted in that was the problem.

I don't think they managed a full stop landing with the Jag using NVGs; that was reserved for the 'official' landings at Boscombe, but we did several with Hecate. The ops at Farnborough were never really publicised like the Boscombe ones were.

Chevvron: we certainly landed Jaguar ZB 615 at Farnborough at night, but I am not sure if we did that with XW566. We did not land the Tornado at Farnborough although we did one flyby ( I think it was on 28 March 1985) - it was always Boscombe based

[kriskross]

I remember being 'safety pilot' on a T2 Jaguar on 6 Squadron at Coltishall in the early 80's doing Squadron trials on NVGs. It was alright for the TP up front with the goggles. but rushing around Wales at low level at night was frankly terrifying in the back!

[huge72]

For many years the Wessex was the forerunner with regards to PNG/NVG ops because of Northern Ireland. On my first tour on 72 Sqn 80-83 the cockpits weren't compatible so the only people using firstly hand held PNG and then helmet mounted NVG were the crewman. The pilot flew us to an IP, then we took over navigating to the correct field and put a White Light Nite Sun on it for them to land in. By my second tour 85 -87 the cockpits were modified and all the crew were on Goggles using Black Lite Nite Sun. I believe that 72 Sqn was the first squadron to have all aircrew and aircraft capable of NVG ops.

[Firestreak]

Re NVGs in the F4, the 3 aircraft we took to Ascension in May 1982 had hastily modified blue glass cockpits. A bod appeared with some goggles for us, I took him airborne on 28 May 82 which could well have been the first RAF Phantom NVG sortie. The bod, as I recall, was certainly not fast jet aircrew, not even sure if he was aircrew at all as he seemed to be very windy about getting airborne, at night, from Ascension. On subsequent nights, we all flew with the goggles flying against blacked out aircraft and ships.

[beardy]

Re NVGs in the F4, the 3 aircraft we took to Ascension in May 1982 had hastily modified blue glass cockpits. A bod appeared with some goggles for us, I took him airborne on 28 May 82 which could well have been the first RAF Phantom NVG sortie. The bod, as I recall, was certainly not fast jet aircrew, not even sure if he was aircrew at all as he seemed to be very windy about getting airborne, at night, from Ascension. On subsequent nights, we all flew with the goggles flying against blacked out aircraft and ships.
And having string tied to them so that should they fall off the helmet mount they wouldn't hit the ground and break (as one did). IIRC there were concerns that ejection with NVGs tied around the neck could have been problematic as they would probably fall off the helmet mount and end up on in your chest.
Mind you night close formation was fun, not having NVGs the nav couldn't see the other aircraft and could get quite worried!

[ShyTorque]

Mind you night close formation was fun, not having NVGs the nav couldn't see the other aircraft and could get quite worried!

During a helicopter exchange visit to New Mexico in 1994 the ‘mericans were trusting enough to allow me to have a go at refuelling from a C130 in one of their Blackhawks on NVG then descend to fly at 50’ agl over the desert, on a very dark night. In the RAF back then we were only cleared down to 150’ agl. One of our crewman instructors was down the back of the aircraft and not one peep came from his lips. I don’t ever remember him not speaking during a flight before….. all very trusting, anyway.

[Firestreak]

Ah yes, the goggles that hit the floor, the jury is still out as to whether or not that was a genuine accident or was there a helping hand? For possible ejection, the official line became just knock the things off your bone dome then they shouldn’t kill you when you pull the handle.

[Fitter2]

Chevvron mentioned Wing Commander Ian Strachan (one time boss of B Sqdn A&AEE Boscombe Down and Wingco Flying Farnborough) in his post #34. Ian tells me "Initially we used a LLTV camera in the nose (camera was from Hearne's GEC factory at Rochester airfield), but soon transitioned to using NVGs mounted on the pilot's helmet which allowed sideways scan."

From his (as yet unpublished autobiography):

In the Hunter, after practise by day, in April 1978 night flying followed, initially at about 500 ft above ground level. Two pictures are shown below - the small numbers are airspeed top left and on the right is height above ground from the Hunter’s radio altimeter. In the picture on the right, altitude is 694 ft at a speed of 448 knots. When a turn is not being made, altitude can be reduced and the left image shows flying at 512 ft above the ground at 459 knots. In the image on the right, the aircraft horizon bar is below the real horizon close to the aircraft’s Velocity Vector (VV) symbol and the pilot knows that the nose has soon to be raised to avoid hitting the ground. As we became more familiar with the system, altitude could safely be reduced further as long as the wings were level and the LLTV picture was good. The two pictures below from later in the trials show radio altimeter figures of 272 and 251 feet, after which we felt there was no need to demonstrate flying any lower.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1256x444/lltv_7cb1bd711de5313da10bcd2146cd7872ef3371af.jpg

The LLTV system could also be used for covert takeoffs and landings without runway lights. This was first tested on the long runway at Boscombe Down in April 1978. I was in the Air Traffic Control Tower to monitor events and the Hunter pilot was Squadron Leader John Bishop. I remember the incredulity of the Air Traffic staff when I asked them to turn off the runway lights before the Hunter made a "roller" landing 1 , but I assured them that the pilots had a screen that clearly showed the runway even without lights. They watched with amazement when John Bishop successfully landed, the only indication from the Control Tower being flashing navigation lights travelling down the completely dark runway, although in real covert operations the navigation lights would be switched off. A world-first, I think.

[chevvron]

The LLTV system could also be used for covert takeoffs and landings without runway lights. This was first tested on the long runway at Boscombe Down in April 1978. I was in the Air Traffic Control Tower to monitor events and the Hunter pilot was Squadron Leader John Bishop. I remember the incredulity of the Air Traffic staff when I asked them to turn off the runway lights before the Hunter made a "roller" landing 1 , but I assured them that the pilots had a screen that clearly showed the runway even without lights. They watched with amazement when John Bishop successfully landed, the only indication from the Control Tower being flashing navigation lights travelling down the completely dark runway, although in real covert operations the navigation lights would be switched off. A world-first, I think.
As far as I recall, at Farnborough ATC, full 'lights out' takeoffs and landings were normal from the start of fast jet operations; the aircrew briefed us on the requirements and everyone participated down to the airfield electricians who went round the airfield extinguishing stray lights; as I said previously where there was a small current in some of the circuits which was meant to stop the lights 'icing over' in cold weather.
I'm surprised at the 'incredulity' of the Boscombe controllers when asked to turn the lights off because at Farnborough we were fully briefed by the aircrew that it was 'the norm' and some of us had visited EFS and viewed the tape recordings of the operations. I had even put a 'special' section in the the Civil AIP warning pilots that the airfield was frequently active at night with the airfield totally blacked out because at least one local civil airfield operated H24.
The most spectacular sorties were with the Jaguar (yes I remember the Jag trips now) whereby you could see a single anti - coll beacon taxy out, line up and go with the afterburners lighting up for takeoff only to be extinguished after they were airborne.

[Fitter2]

Hi Chevvron (by the way, are any still flying? I watched Derek Piggott demo the prototype at Booker)

I'm surprised at the 'incredulity' of the Boscombe controllers when asked to turn the lights off because at Farnborough we were fully briefed by the aircrew that it was 'the norm' and some of us had visited EFS and viewed the tape recordings of the operations

Ian was writing about the first no-lights landing trial in April 1987, it rapidly (as you say) became normal.

[chevvron]

Hi Chevvron (by the way, are any still flying? I watched Derek Piggott demo the prototype at Booker)

I think there are one or two still operating at Chilbolton. I read about Derek Piggott's air test in 'Pilot' so years later when I started flying them at Halton, I knew what to expect.
The first one we had was a demonstrator with a Hirth 45hp engine but the rest were Konig 32hp. On one occasion I didn't 'flare' enough and discovered about Derek's remarks about getting the right angle of attack to complete a flare; the aircraft touched, then bounced back into the air. On Halton's long runway, I let it touch and go 3 times before pulling back a bit more and landing it properly!

[oxenos]

About '68 or '69 one of 205 Sqn's Shackletons in Singapore was fitted with an infra red detector.Some trials were done to see if it could locate insurgents in the jungle at night by detecting their cooking fires. As I recall, some Gurkhas were up in Malaya tasked with setting up " targets". The only trial I was due to fly on was cancelled for some reason, and I have no knowledge how succesful the trials were.

[Shackman]

Like many of the others here, my introduction to NVG was in Northern Ireland in 1980/81, when the first generation PNG arrived for us to use (AN-PVS 5?). This wonderful device was worn (I use the term relatively) by one pilot and the crewman, with the other pilot sitting as a safety pilot watching the T’s and P’s and frightened out of his skin by some of the comments between them and rapid applications of power by the pilot flying. How we missed some of the wires (and other aircraft) in South Armagh I don’t know – I do remember the limited field of view when wearing them, and how relieved I was when I took them off, and also when it was decided that it was time to stop using them altogether.

In mid ’82 I converted to the Chinook, and was also introduced to Gen 2 ANVIS, which was a whole world away from earlier experiences, and we were quite happy operating with them, including landing in fields etc with little or no light.

However, the little snippet I have to add comes from my first visit to the Falklands in late 82, when we were based at Port San Carlos rather than the later site round the bay. On Christmas Day we were invited to have lunch with the Estate manager, who also took us out in his Land Rover ‘to have a look around’. Apart from visiting a penguin colony, he took us out to the western most point of land, overlooking Fanning Bay and the entrance to San Carlos water, and showed us the Argentinian positions there. There were two or three recoilless rifles still there, with a large amount of ammunition (in fact we toyed with the idea of ‘trying one out’), but the surprise of the day was to find a bunker with 6 pairs of PNG neatly stacked – all of which still worked. Not only that but two of them had UK MOD markings on them! Had the FP been manned on the night the fleet sailed into the bay there could have been a lot of damage. Fortunately for us the guys who should have been manning it were apparently at a party at PSC and then couldn’t get back. When we told the int guys in Stanley they weren’t interested, and the next time I went out there the position had been ‘liberated’.

[Capt Scribble]

There was a small cadre of NVG qual Jag pilots in Germany in the late 80s. We flew low level in UK for training before returning to base. I was authed for a mission in Germany one night to demonstrate the concept. Unfortunately, no one seemed to tell the German authorities and there was all sorts of trouble for flying below 1000ft. Not me Herr Colonel, speak to my auth, a gent who now sits in the Lords!

[chevvron]

There was a small cadre of NVG qual Jag pilots in Germany in the late 80s. We flew low level in UK for training before returning to base. I was authed for a mission in Germany one night to demonstrate the concept. Unfortunately, no one seemed to tell the German authorities and there was all sorts of trouble for flying below 1000ft. Not me Herr Colonel, speak to my auth, a gent who now sits in the Lords!
Come to think of it, wasn't there a ban put on all FJ low flying in the UK after 1130pm every night?