Military Aircraft

[Lister Noble]

Where I live on the Suffolk-Norfolk border we have a lot of military aircraft flying around,mostly low level,last week a Eurofighter/Typhoon passed very near around 200 feet,maybe slightly less,not fast,I would say around 300 knots
We also have Apache helicopters and C130's ,I think they are mostly UK but some could be USAF as both have bases nearby.
I love to see and hear them but I have a question.
There are a significant number of small grass stiprs around here and on approach we will be at the same level as these aircraft,also I often fly around 500-1000 feet.
In say an L4 Cub with no electrics,thus no transponder,flying at the same level as these aircraft,are we visible on their on-board radar,and do they have time to take evasive action?
I was going to post this on military,but not sure if I would get a response.
Lister

[BRL]

Hi. I will copy this over to Military for you so keep an eye in there too. :)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Lister -

Depending on the type of ground you're flying over and what the jet is doing at the time (eg flying straight at you vs turning into you) if they have a clear line of sight at you they MAY see you on the radar, if they're not too busy doing other things at the time. This applies only to a/c that have radars, remember a lot of the mil a/c floating around at low level don't. Most mil a/c don't have TCAS so it'll not make much difference whether you're transponding or not, but good lookout is drummed into mil pilots from day 1 in their flying trg. BUT (and this is a big one) no lookout is perfect, and a cub is not particularly large. See and avoid works most of the time, but if you're just going for a cruise in an area you know is frequently busy with mil traffic I'd fly at 1000'+ (AGL!). Most military fixed wing traffic will be at around 250' AGL to 500'AGL, so if you've got a decent buffer above that you'll be safe enough!

Thought I'd get a decent reply to a reasonable question in quickly before you get savaged to by the old fogies;)

[High_Expect]

In reply to your post… There is no definite answer as to whether a fast jet would have radar contact with you. For a start the majority of fast jets GR4’s/Harriers either don’t have a radar or certainly won’t be using it in any mode that will enable them to pick up light aircraft. By flying around below 1000’ feet you are putting yourself and more annoyingly us at increased risk. We have to be there! Low flying is an essential skill to all modern fast jet aircrew. Where as you do not. Please for your own sake and ours avoid flying below 1000’ wherever possible. There are to many cases to point to the risks of not. Ie, Jet Ranger vs Tornado and the Cessna vs Tornado. Sometime we have enough time to avoid and sometimes we don’t!

I hope this answers your question and please don’t be offended by my tone. I’m sure you’re a very conscientious aviator but there are far too many of your fellow GA pilots who like nothing better than flying around at 1000 ft 3nms from a fast jet base centreline as a case in point.

[Justiciar]

This is a very interesting qustion as E. Anglia has its fair share of military bases. So far as I can remember I was never told during PPL training about how to fly around military bases and which areas to avoid horizontally and vertically other than the baic MATZ penetration procedure.

[BEagle]

Lister, the location of most small strips is listed in the UK Low Flying Handbook (or whatever it's called these days) and will also be shown as 'avoid' areas on the Low Flying Chart.

But if the owners of these strips don't promulgate their locations, military pilots are unlikely to know of them.

Having the location in the 'system' won't necessarily provide it with any particular level of avoidance criteria, but it will ensure that the location is known about.

The CAA's Safety Sense Leaflet No 18 - Military Low Flying gives you some top tips about avoiding the risk of collision. Military low flying is summarised thus:

Military light propeller aircraft and helicopters are considered to be low flying below 500 ft MSD. In practice, most military low flying takes place between 250 ft and 600 MSD, decreasing in intensity up to 1000 ft MSD and reducing further in the 1000 ft to 2000ft height band. However, occasionally military aircraft perform high energy manoeuvres between 250 ft and 2,000 ft during which they rapidly change height, speed and direction.

As has been said, your best bet is to avoid flying below 1000 ft agl away from an aerodrome and, if possible, operate at 2000 ft agl and above.

[Lister Noble]

Thanks for all the replies,most helpful.
Lister:)

[FlightTester]

operate at 2000 ft agl and above.


Seconded! I used to fly along the Penines - out of Blackpool turn east then north once past the M6. Always stayed above 2000'AGL, not uncommon to see Tornado's, Tucano's etc going past 1500' below. Usually got a wing waggle out of them just to let me know they'd seen me - thanks chaps.