Preservation of C130 K and VC10 for Future Generations

[Fed-Up]

I have recently completed my 22 year flying career, flying a total of 5600hrs on the C130K Hercules and VC10 aircraft, both aircraft being stalwarts of the RAF transport wing since the late 1960's.

I wonder if much thought has been given to preserving examples of each aircraft in a museum. Both aircraft have served for 40+ years, and rather than see them get scrapped, I think that at least one example of each aircraft should be saved from the scrapyard.

Both aircraft were classic designs, and combined with the professionalism of the aircrews flying them, contributed significantly to the defence of our country. I feel that our Lords and Masters must give my idea serious thought before the opportunity to preserve an example of each aircraft is lost.

[dakkg651]

I believe that there are plans in place to preserve a VC10 at the RAF Museum Cosford which is why the BA example was broken up there a couple of years ago.

Plenty of space there for a K as well.

[Logistics Loader]

As the Tranpsort fleet will be solely based at BZZ, why not have Queen Victoria and Prince Albert as gate guardians...!!

After all the RN seem to sink ships to create a reef off Plymouth...

To see the backbone of the AT world sat at the Gateway to the world could well be a fitting end to the demise of these great frames...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Although I've been through the gates of Brize Norton many times for onwards passage to exciting destinations not found in the travel agents I can't ever remember seeing a gate guardian there.

Am I right in thinking that Brize is the largest station without a gate guardian?

[microlight AV8R]

Can I request that the VC-10 is restored to the original colour scheme and the Herc would look good in the old middle east colours with the white panel above the cockpit.

cheers folks

[MrBernoulli]

You'd have to demolish the Med and Dental centres, plus the Passes & Permits (or whatever its called these days) at Brize to get any gate guardians in place! Come to think of it, thats not a bad idea ........... :E

[brakedwell]

The MOD won't finance it. The Britannia at Kemble has been maintained by the Bristol Britannia Preservation Society since it returned to UK. In 2005, the BBPS ( http://www.britannia.flyer.co.uk/xm496.htm)took over control of the aircraft, becoming the Bristol Britannia XM496 Preservation Society.

[BEagle]

I guess the corrosion from the damp cushions at the back of the flight decks of both types could be a preservation hazard?

Certainly a VC10C1K should be preserved as a Brize Norton gate guardian - but where? And yes, it should be in ye olde Transporte Commande colours!

[Runaway Gun]

Could we not just preserve the ones that are currently in service - to help keep them in the air where they are needed?

Another gate collection anyone? ;)

[The Helpful Stacker]

A capital idea Runaway Gun.

They could call it 'The Cold War Memorial Flight' or something along those lines.

[brakedwell]

More like the "Desert in the Sky"(VC10) Memorial Flight

[VinRouge]

They do say pepsi is the choice of the new generation, bearing that in mind, how about pepsi cans instead? :}

Joking, of course... a fitting tribute needs to be made to these two stalwart aircraft.

[Blacksheep]

...the old middle east colours Ahem! Far East Air Force please. :hmm:

48 Squadron at Changi were the first C130 squadron to use that white top paint scheme. On all 16 of their aircraft. They were of course, copying 52 who had it on their Andovers, who were copying... :}

[Madbob]

I'm with you on wanting to preserve our once great aviation heritage but we can't consider pensioning off the VC10 and C130K just yet, even though they are well past retirement-age until our wonderful govt and MOD(PE) provided us with some replacements!

The trouble is made worse when those planned replacements suffer delays (C130J, A400M, C17) and when operational losses are not replaced :ugh:. Through my rose-tinted galsses I seem to recall that after the Falklands that Maggie at least did the decent thing and ordered replacements for the aircraft losses we experienced, including those lost on Atlantic Conveyor, and even the RN got some new ships to replace Coventry, Ardent, Exeter etc.)

It seems so un-necessary now as we managed to sustain ops in places such as Borneo, Aden, Oman and other far-away places with far less capable ac such as the Argosy, Britannia, Andover, Beverley, Hastings, Belevedere in the 1960's yet struggle to do so now?

The scary bit is that even the Tornado is 25 years old and will have to soldier on for many more years in the ground attack/CAS role before a replacement comes along. The post Cold War defence review promised a smaller and leaner BUT BETTER EQUIPPED armed forces but although we may have shrunk the equipment is getting very lonf in the tooth!


The RAF is rapidly becoming the R&AAF - the Royal and Ancient Air Force :(.
MB

[microlight AV8R]

I stand corrected Sir.

I'm at crossed purposes with my memories of the whistling wheelbarrow operating out of Khormaksar. They carried the RAF Middle East titles.

Them were t'days.

[brakedwell]

Like this?


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/Argosy-Masirah.jpg

[microlight AV8R]

Oh yes, that's the beauty.

Still remember flying down to kenya in one of them :ok:

Also recall being amazed at the sight of the Beverley dragging itself into the air at Kormaksar :ooh:

Anyway, back to the thread. these two types certainly deserve recognition as they've been the over worked backbone of RAF airlift ever since the decision in the seventies that we would not operate out of area anymore :hmm:

[Lyneham Lad]

Ahem! Far East Air Force please.

Indeed. :ok: Still have my FEAF Colours somewhere - ah, here they are:-

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/Lyneham_Lad/FEAF_Colours.jpg

[Union Jack]

..... and even the RN got some new ships to replace Coventry, Ardent, Exeter etc .....

Purely on a point of detail, it would have been splendid if HMS EXETER had indeed been "replaced", but in fact she's still running 26 years after the Falklands Conflict.

Jack

[Data-Lynx]

HS. There was nearly a new candidate for Gate Guardian on Sunday night. The OmniAir decompressor charter DC-10 stopped shortly after a very nice landing. The Yank pilot told the self-loading luggage that he could not see the peri-track (in the rising fog) so he was waiting for guidance. While we savoured the prospect of the master race admitting to be lost at BZZ, we did not dare tell him that practical guidance on that airfield could take a while.

[BEagle]

Is that likely?

I thought that Catarrah was one of those sacred cows which wasn't going to be stopped, no matter what. Has someone actually had an attack of commonsense at last?

[Dengue_Dude]

They're too busy flying them, perhaps they could spend the first week of a Minor Star parked near the gate . . .

[Lyneham Lad]

The latest on Project Catara can be found here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/aboutus/catara.cfm). At the present rate of progress with the A400M and FSTA, there might well be an embarrassment of ASP space for a while!

[6foottanker]

I believe they have a VC10 at Brooklands Museum. Will that do, or does it need RAFizing first?

[AR1]

Essentially they are buses and trucks with wings. They tick no boxes for real men, only anoraked spotters. Cut them up and turn them into something more useful.:ok:

[VinRouge]

So, what are they going to do with officers numbering in excess of 200 that move to brize as part of CATARA?

Let me guess, no plan? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Blacksheep]

the Royal and Ancient Air Force The Royal and Antediluvian Air Force, surely? One remembers when the Vickers Knickers were introduced by Shiny Ten and only Squadron Leaders were allowed to fly them. Then a few years later we had that new fangled American machinery with its infernal Federal Stock Numbers and Appendix 42 to help us find alternatives...

AR1, you're a naughty boy. Put on this pointy hat and go stand in the corner.

[brakedwell]

The Royal and Antediluvian Air Force, surely? One remembers when the Vickers Knickers were introduced by Shiny Ten and only Squadron Leaders were allowed to fly them.

They were only wearing their Prickett Rings of Confidence while on the strength of Shiny Ten..

[BEagle]

Or 241 OCU, of course.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

A system which didn't end until the early 1980s. One highly respected VC10 QFI who had been a Sqn Ldr for years had to revert to Flt Lt until the next promotion list came out a few months later, whereupon he became a Specialist Aircrew Sqn Ldr.

That sort of mind-numbing administrivial stupidity which does such things to loyal officers of long service is now hopefully a thing of the past......:ugh:

[Gainesy]

You don't want to put one on the gate too early, otherwise there may well be the unedifying sight of it being Christmas Treed to keep the others going. Still, would save on MT runs to the Saints Scrapheap Challenge.

[The Helpful Stacker]

A taste of what could have been with a re-engine?

http://www.vc10.net/Memories/Images/File0012.jpg

[Rigger1]

CATARA - air transport and air-to-air refuelling operations up to and beyond 2030

2030, will it either FSTA or A400 be in service by then?

Seriously, does anybody really expect to see either an A400 or FSTA operational within the next 10 years?

[Old Fella]

Being a mere "colonial boy from down-under" I read the first post by Fed-Up with interest. In 23 years with the RAAF I was both a Ground Engineer and, for the last 12 years of my service, a Flight Engineer. I had the privelege of flying on the C130A-C130E and C130H, as well as the B707. What caught my eye with the post of Fed-Up was that having said correctly that the VC-10 and the C130 were classic designs they, combined with the professionalism of the aircrew who flew them etc etc. Nowhere in any post can I see anyone giving credit to those who maintain the aircraft. Let us not forget that without the efforts of the maintenance crews we would not have aircraft to fly.

[Chugalug2]

Blacksheep:

One remembers when the Vickers Knickers were introduced by Shiny Ten and only Squadron Leaders were allowed to fly them.

The reason not being the undoubted majesty of the VC10, per se, but one Freddy Laker whose BUA also operated the type. Faced with the constant depletion of trained captains, the DS solution was to ban him and his acolytes from 10's crewroom. That had little or no effect as business continued in the nearby Public Houses. Retention (as much as possible) was finally assured by the mass handing out of scrapers. There was a crumb of comfort for those of us further down the food chain, ie on Ks (well OK, a lot further down), as it was the habit of Corporals allocating accommodation at the Route Hotels to pose the question: "Are you a real Squadron Leader, Sir, or simply a VC-10 Captain?". The wrong answer produced the response: "Then you'll be down the end with the rest of the crew, Sir".

[The Helpful Stacker]

I must say I'm always pretty impressed by the shear noise of those howling Conways on take-off.

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/XR806_writeoff.jpg

Look at that beauty climb.

[philrigger]

;)

The Helpful Stacker

You dont fool me, that is the one that went down on its tail due to a refuelling error !

[The Helpful Stacker]

Surely not. Don't the TG1 master race carry out defuelling duties?;)

[brakedwell]

I don't think the Laker connection is correct. The RAF VC10 had just been introduced and as far as I remember nobody left the shiny new fleet for several years. Laker airways had only recently started with 2 Britannia 102's. I remember being told the reason for the rings of confidence was because old hairy Transport Command captains on large impersonal squadrons were not getting their fair share of promotions compared with the fighter jockeys. The MOD accountants agreed to establish a limited number of Acting Sqn Ldr posts which were to be shared around the transport squadrons. However the number conveniently covered the Comet and VC10 captains. A lot of senior Brit and Belfast Flt Lt captains were very cross about the way scrapers were allocated, blaming the AOC, who was ex Bomber Command, for favouring the ex V Force pilots who had been posted on to the VC10.

I remember an amusing incident in the Gan Blue Spitoon Crew Bar not long after the system was instigated. The CO of 99 sqn, who was on his swan song before leaving for Upavon, learned officially of his promotion on our arrival in Gan. As he didn't have a set of four ring epaulettes the Nav and I lent him our two pairs of two. Several beers later a VC 10 crew walked into the bar. The captain took one look at the improperly dressed Britannia captain and bollocked him for taking the piddle out of his ring of confidence. The following day the Group Captain positioned home on the westbound VC10, commanded by the very same (embarrassed) Acting Sqn Ldr.

[Chugalug2]

Not Laker Airways, brakedwell, but BUA where he presided earlier. The handouts of scrapers were, for whatever reason, confined in the main to VC10 (and Comets as you say) captains, and the explanation that I gave is as we on the MRT Squadrons understood it at the time, when VC10 (BUA) and Comet (Dan Air) recruitment by the civvies was strong. I'm gratified to learn that our outrage was shared by others on the Strat Fleets other than on VC10s and Comets. RAF mismanagement is an art that goes back over decades!

[brakedwell]

Before moving to Brize I was stationed at Bradenstoke cum Clack International from 1966 to 1970 and I can't remember any of my friends on 216 talking about leaving for Danair before the Prickett ring fiasco. The same with 10 Sqn. I'm sure the acting scraper was intended as a moral booster for Transport Command which was handled badly. I've just remembered another explanation at that time - It was to give VC10 captains more authority over stroppy Air Movements Officers.
Britannia Captains, mostly ex Hastings and Beverley, were well equipped to look after themselves!

[Chugalug2]

Brakedwell:

It was to give VC10 captains more authority over stroppy Air Movements Officers.


Hahahahahahahahaha...OK BW, I can't top that! It's a corker! As a once Hastings Captain myself I was often the most junior officer in the crew (as a Flying Officer) and the least well paid of all being single, with Master Aircrew who weren't. No problem with that, you were posted to the job and paid per your rank until the Brize card was played! :{
Oh, and I've just remembered we had quite a few ex 216 on the Comet Fleet when I was with Dan-Air (from 1973). Never on that Fleet myself though or I might have been required to call them "Sir"!

[taxydual]

Looks like the would-be Gate Guardians will be needed a bit longer



RAF Considers Alternatives to Belated A400M




The Ministry of Defence is now believed to be looking at alternatives to the A400M aircraft given the lengthy delays that the project faces. The programme, run by EADS has endured severe delays due to engine testing problems in the aircraft. The first deliveries were originally scheduled for late 2009, but the technical issues have pushed the delivery date back to 2011 according to some EADS officials. A leaked e-mail from the company however stated that the company could not confirm any delivery date or first flight for the airplanes. With the project in a state of limbo, MoD has begun looking at alternatives both in the short term and on a more permanent basis. It has been well documented by MoD officials that the RAF is examining the possibility of extending the life of the C-130Ks and leasing additional C-17s on a short term basis. But with the A400M’s future becoming more uncertain by the day, MoD has begun discussions with the AirTanker consortium about developing a new model of the A330 tanker as a permanent alternative to the A400M. The consortium is already contracted to provide refuelling tanker aircraft for the RAF. MoD officials have asked the consortium to explore the possibility of refining the A330 MRTT tankers for equipment transport duties. The RAF is scheduled to buy 14 of the aircraft as part of a £13bn PFI deal. At this point it is unclear whether the conversion is possible or how long the transformation will take and at what cost. It is obvious however that there are genuine concerns that the A400M project may join the ranks of other high profile defence projects in suffering huge delays and cost overruns. BBC News.

[brakedwell]

They could always use an A400M sans donks as a gate guard! :E

[Art Field]

'The RAF is sceduled to buy 14 of the aircraft'
No sir! The aircraft will belong to Air Tanker and only hired to the RAF. It is up to them to decide how the frames are configured.

[brakedwell]

What a way to run an air farce. :ugh::ugh:

[VinRouge]

They better hurry up. At this rate, 1 GBP will = 1 Zimbabwe dollar by Christmas!

[Roland Pulfrew]

We are now starting to see that the PFI was a complete farce and the equipment as bid will not and cannot meet emerging requirements. Now let me think, what is the expression? "Told, I, So, You". And 14 was never going to be enough to meet the AAR requirement, let alone the AAR AND AT requirement!!! But of course "we will always be able to charter AT", wont we?

Back on topic, I think Brize and Kinloss are the only two stations without a gate guardian. What a shame they chopped up the K2s. I always thought that a K2 on the (was it?) long stay car park to the east of the main entrance would have been an appropriate site for a gate guard at Brize. Or better still an "airborne" VC10 on a pole (as per the Offutt B52) over the main gate would have been even better!!

[nickxge]

Whilst serving as a GE we took about half the K fleet back to the USA on the buyback scheme to help purchase the J.
So at a small airfield somewhere in the state of Delaware,USA there may some rotting frames to buyback again. This would allow the "oggy" crews to once again go to that lovely pink hotel on the beach and play some more free golf with Gerry Hines. Ah! Such nostalgia!! Such rates!!!
Alternatively, just fit some K props and external tanks to one of the many tired J models and place it where that Comet stands, and what a waste of money and effort that was . A Comet, what an affront to Lyneham
Isn't irony great.
That reminds me must irony some work shirts!!
Happy days

[VinRouge]

I am now starting to get an idea about how the germans felt in the last days of Berlin in 1945...

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00099/CDSmarketBusinessGRA_99183t.jpg


It appears that Labour have done such a wonderful job over the past few months that Mcdonalds has a better credit rating than the UK on the Credit Default Swap Market...... BEAutifullll.... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Ah well, I suppose I can always go and flip burgers when the government cant pay me anymore. Last one in please turn out the lights.

[Zoom]

Not sure about your last comment, VinRouge. With today's announcement that spongers will have to work at last, the minimum wage will be increased significantly to make the work option more lucrative even than sitting back and watching the 'social' roll in, McDonalds and similar outfits won't be able to pay the increased wage bill and Bingo - takeaways, pubs and similar will cease to exist. And you won't be flipping burgers anywhere, not even at home 'cos you will have had to sell the BBQ to pay your next (increased) tax bill.

Thank God that Gordon Brown has just 'saved the world'! Tw:mad:at!!

[VinRouge]

http://www.z5net.com/robbie-gordon.jpg

Says it all really.

[K.Whyjelly]

Vin Rouge that is priceless lol. Dare I ask where you found it?

[VinRouge]

Sorry, should give credit where due....

Guy Fawkes' blog of parliamentary plots, rumours and conspiracy (http://www.order-order.com/)

Guido Fawkes

Pretty good site.

[pzu]

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n431/pzulba/robbie-gordon.jpg


"I SAVED THE WORLD"

GB - PM Questions, 10 Dec 2008


PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[philrigger]

;)
The Helpful Stacker

Although I've been through the gates of Brize Norton many times for onwards passage to exciting destinations not found in the travel agents I can't ever remember seeing a gate guardian there.

Am I right in thinking that Brize is the largest station without a gate guardian?

There was a York aircraft on show there for a couple of years in the 1970s. Then it was moved first to Shawbury in storage then on to the museum at Cosford.

[WE992]

Perhaps an AN124 or DC10 or even some old airliner from the bone yard would be a more appropriate gate guard as there are generally more clapped out civil airliners on charter to the MOD at Brize these days than RAF aircraft if you discount the 216 static display Sqn Tri-motors, that spend more time U/S than flying.

The way ahead is to ditch the strategic AT fleet and moved all passengers by charter like the worlds largest Air Force does.

[brakedwell]

The way ahead is to ditch the strategic AT fleet and moved all passengers by charter like the worlds largest Air Force does.

There won't be any charter airlines left in business after the Saviour of the World has bankrupted the country

[Truckkie]

The way ahead is to ditch the strategic AT fleet and moved all passengers by charter like the worlds largest Air Force does.


Well Done:D

Most charter aircraft don't have the right equipment to fly into our current holiday hotspots.

200+ pax on an unprotected civvy charter - I don't think so:mad:

[Lionel Lion]

Why not put a 10 on the frontgate and Brize and turn it into an up-market restaurant.........and albert on the back gate as a kebab shop on rtb from the Beedive

:O

[WE992]

Charter is the way ahead. I notice that all troops deploying to Iraq fly from the UK by charter and unlike the Ascot mob the charter aircraft are nearly always ontime. Starting next week half the passenger movements for the Afghan theatre are going to be mored by charter as the 216 trimotor static display Sqn can not cope.

Charter is the way ahead. Do away with the gloryfied bus drivers of the Ascot fleet.

[steamchicken]

Simple solution surely; kick the PFI with its special not-quite A330s in the arse and run, don't walk, down to EADS and get our slots in the queue for the full spec ones the Americans can't seem to get organised to actually buy, which actually have a cargo door.

[WeekendFlyer]

WE992,

nice idea until you actually have to fly a charter aircraft into a combat zone that has a credible SAM threat. We owe it to the military pax to fly them in aircraft that have half a chance of defeating/surviving such an attack.

The Ascot mob, as you so kindly put it, have been let down badly by our totally :mad: government forcing them to solder on with knackered aircraft and engineering/logistics support that has been cut to the bone :ugh:

I look forward to the day when the crews at BZN have some modern, capable aircraft to fly; I have worked with quite a few of them and they are very professional, hardworking people and they do an amzing job with the aircraft they have at the moment, IMHO.

And on a related matter, I have quite a soft spot for the Vickers funbus, lovely aircraft, but sadly getting too old to remain in service now.

Agree the FSTA PFI is a disaster, but the A330-200 tanker should be a good aircraft, provided EADS-CASA "militarise" it competently, but that is a debate for another day :}

[brakedwell]

WE 992
nice idea until you actually have to fly a charter aircraft into a combat zone that has a credible SAM threat. We owe it to the military pax to fly them in aircraft that have half a chance of defeating/surviving such an attack.

What about the crew, are they are dispensible?

[VinRouge]

depends on how much the aircraft costs. :ugh:

[Brain Potter]

WE992,

The TriStar is the only platform available that can satisfy the UK government's policy on DAS and the British Army's desire to be delivered directly into theatre. However, putting that particular issue aside,
"Ditching the Strategic AT fleet" as you so wisely advocate gets rid of a total of 3 airframes. All the other TriStars and VC10s are tankers. It is not good value to the taxpayer to refuse to utilize the AT capacity of these airframes and have them sat around waiting for the next time that AAR is required in numbers. The USAF also use their KC-10 force to perform airlift missions and the KC-45, or whatever ends up winning the KC-X competion, is required to add significantly to that capability.

I would guess that your comments are based on bad experiences of being moved by the military AT system. Curiously, the RAF AAR service seems to be held in much higher regard despite being provided the same aircraft and crews.

[Biggus]

Brain,

Nothing but respect for AT/AAR crews and groundcrew, but in terms of reputation of RAF AAR assets......

My experience is when they turn up they are very good/flexible, but, when I first got involved in AAR receiver training I quickly learnt that the phrase...."the tanker is airborne".... had to treated with the same caution as ...."the cheque is in the post"....and slightly ruder comments!

[Brain Potter]

I do not doubt that users of the RAF AAR service regularly fall victim to VC10 or TriStar unserviceabilities. Equally, the tanker force rarely sees all of it's expected trade arrive and often has to throw fuel away because of unserviceable receivers.

However, WE992's comments about the "Ascot mob" and "glorified bus drivers" seem to reflect a belief that the air and ground crews of the AT force are somehow intransigent in the execution of their tasking. AAR receivers that have been let-down appear to be much more philosophical about the difficulties of providing a service with a small fleet of forty-year-old aircraft and are less ready to cast aspersions on tanker crew's professionalism. My point to WE992 is that there is much less invective directed at the AAR force than at the Strat AT fleet and yet the service is provided by the very same aircraft and crews.

[Art Field]

I suspect that while the complainers about the AT service are in the main non aviators the AAR users are all of the flying world and understand the vagaries of aircraft. The AT customers deserve a better service than they are getting but the providers just do not have the recourses, an impossible situation. The history of a replacement policy is sad reading and possibly still subject to delay if changes to the fit of FSTA are likely.One thing you can be sure of is that the operators are doing their best to meet the tasking.

[Fed-Up]

Ref preserving examples of each of the VC10 and C130. Getting back to my thread starting point.

Should we save a VC10 C1, K3 or K4, there are merits of each model.
Similarly should we save a Hercules Mk1 or Mk3. Personally I think that a Mk1 should be saved, but I am sure that others will think otherwise.

[Fat Lad]

Brain,

You suggested: The TriStar is the only platform available that can satisfy the UK government's policy on DAS and the British Army's desire to be delivered directly into theatre.

Does a C17 with palletized seating (plus comfort pallet) not meet these criteria?

I will hasten to add that such an option is a shocking waste of the C17's cargo compartment!:hmm::hmm:

[Truckkie]

I would like to see a C130K Mk 1 SF airframe saved as a lasting memorial to the model and the crews that have flown and fought her.

Nice to see one at Brize with all the bits attached.

Alongside a VC10 - tanker variants would look better.

[NutLoose]

Re:- Preservation of C130 K and VC10 for Future Generations

The way of things in the UK, Captain Archer and his crew will no doubt be ferried out to the first Starship Enterprise in the "Latest" re-engined reincarnation of the VC10 whos new out of service date will have been put back to 2410...

Call me cynical.:rolleyes:

[AR1]

Well if you look at the Aircraft on the historical line-up at Dyess AFB, I'm sure we could somehow manipulate a Vc10 or C130 into position somewhere.

Although behind the secure entrance of any station, it begs the question why? (and thats the case with Dyess now - I had to fax my passport to the CIA or FBI, just to walk past the old airframes!
For sure stick it where it can be seen, and get a sense of what goes on, but if you cant see it , what's the point. Give it to a museum.

[Fareastdriver]

Charter is the way ahead. Do away with the gloryfied bus drivers of the Ascot fleet.

As an ex RAF, albeit rotary driver, now in the civilian world, I think that I speak for all ex-service and civilian trained pilots that if there is any chance of any bullets coming in my direction I exit stage left, pronto.

[OR.339]

Why preserve a Hercules, there are stacks of them all over the world!

Where as the VC10 is a much rarer beast. Plus, if money is short preserving a VC10 only will be easier on the taxpayer. There will be loads of Hercules preserved in the States. Common sense please!

And another thing! Preserve two VC10s, one in airworthy condition for as long as is possible, and one permanently under cover in a new national aerospace museum, along with examples (also under cover) of a Concorde, BAC 111, Trident, Victor, Vulcan etc. It is the large British aircraft that are generally left outside to be reduced to scrap by oxidation after a decade or so.

I was lucky enough to get a free ride in a VC10 as a space cadet back in the 80's. Great!!!

PS: Not much hope of preserving anything with the 'Brown Bounce' in office. Smacks of Empire and not sufficiently Scottish etc...