FAA To Mandate In-Flight Cloud Deck Measuring Equipment for EMS Helicopters

[SASless]

The FAA Helicopter EMS Safety Initiative Working Group is proposing all US based EMS helicopters be required to install pilot operated in-flight cloud deck measuring devices. The Working Group which is under the gun to come up with new and innovative ideas to reduce the number and severity of EMS weather related crashes believes this latest technology can be very useful in achieving that goal.

The FAA reports some progress in the ultimate goal of reducing all helicopter accidents by 90% and notes Year 2008 accident statistics will aid in future progress towards that goal.

http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/5112l.jpg

[Shawn Coyle]

Right.
Like the single pilot is going to use this while he flies at night in an unstabilized Jet Ranger....
And how is the pilot going to be able to know there is cloud anyway???

[mfriskel]

I really hope you are kidding!

[dnheli]

Hope you're kidding too!

But here are some serious ideas for the EMS industry:
-Two pilots all the time
-part 135 all the time
-IFR equipped machines
-IFR current crews
-IFR infrastructure and procedures
-NVGs
-EVS
-EGPWS
-more (basic-cig/vis) automated wx reporting devices, say, on all cell towers
-sanctions against those who pressure pilots or shop for a provider willing to take risks others won't
-anonymous safety reporting system with teeth so pilots or others can report abuses/anti-safety pressures

Expensive, sure; put some operators out of business, sure; but what is the cost of lost life? what is the cost of adverse public reaction that leads to over regulation? This industry sector needs to regulate itself NOW, before the gov't puts it out of business without their input.

There are no doubt fine EMS operations out there-their leaders need to take charge and lead their sector to a better future.

[hostile]

How it works in real life? What if system is broke? More info needed.

dnheli's list is good and already in use in most European countries added with twin engined Class II ( Class I, but this operations it is very hard to use all the time) capability helicopters. That works.

:ok:

[Rotorbee]

Ok, that thing is stored in your shirt pocket. Do I have to hover and look straigt down to get a good reading?
What about a rock in the cloud. Is that measured as cloud?

[rick1128]

dnheli,

Overall the list is good. However, there is more involved. First there have been accidents where there were 2 pilots. However, 2 pilot crews do reduce workload. Many of the accidents have been on the 135 legs. Many of the operators already do this as the medical personnel do not work for them. So legally they are passengers. As for IFR ships and crews, many operators already do this and add flight time into the contract to keep their crews IFR current. However, it is the hospital administrators that go with the lowest bidder that may not do this.

As for IFR infrastructure, while some of the ships used are IFR equipped, they are not certified for IFR. Also while there may be sufficient IFR infrastructure on the east coast, other parts of the country is a different matter. Especially in the mountains. The whole purpose of using a helicopter is to get the victim to the hospital within the golden hour. Now, hospital to hospital transfers should be operated at a higher standard due to the fact the patient must be stable and the speed is not as critical.

NVG's are a special issue. All the operators I have talked to want them. However, the FAA and the DOD are the hold up's there. The FAA doesn't seem to be able to get training programs approved. And the DOD makes it real difficult to get approval to purchase the proper units and make all sorts of ridiculous rules the operator has to follow.

EVS is now starting to become mature enough to be a standard. It has some excellent qualities that would enhance EMS safety. One of the primary points would be the ability to see wires, due to their heat difference.

EGPWS could actually be a negative here. Depending on what system is used. Under current FAA regulations, the size of all EMS helicopters used would only require a system using a warning horn and lights. In a helicopter that would be more of a distraction than a help. The better system would be a system using some sort of moving map where the pilot could not only see the high terrain, but also any escape routes.

One system not discussed would be the addition of TCAS. At least one accident was a mid air. Plus, you add in ENG and Police/fire helicopters, you could have a real circus out there.

As for the AWOS on cell phone towers, who is going to pay for them? The operator, who's contract is year to year? The hospital(s)? The government?

One thing that would help would be better training of those who select and operate the landing sites. I have seen EMS helicopters directed into fields that had so many wires, it looked like a telephone pole convention. Or they put their headlights on high beam into the pilot's face, thinking they are helping him.

[Deskrider]

I think we really need to take a step back and look at the experience/skill level of our pilots(I do realize that some of these accidents have occurred with high time pilots) and I fully know the training minimums that are required. I have also seen a lot of Commercial & ATP guy's coming in with only a very small fraction of night and IFR time in their books (Several high time pilots to be included). However, it seems that several of these accidents have occurred in common IFR situations. So I believe even with some of the bells and whistles mentioned above, we also need to go back to the basics. Sure we can all excel in the simulator where there is no patient in the back or management "pressuring" us once a year, but when we are put in soup or other similar situation our reaction and performance should be at a "expert" rather than a minimum competency level. Sure, a lot of bad decisions were made along the way in many of these accidents (That's another discussion) but these were only contributing factors, at the end of the day it was "Pilot Error" Training, Training, Training. I know there is a bottom line in this business and you can keep throwing these stop gap fixes at the problem to help disguise the real problem...The under skilled, under trained pilot who shouldn't be flying this mission to begin with. There's a reason the U.S. Marine Corps only picks the best, most experienced pilots to fly the Harrier!

[Shawn Coyle]

Deskrider:
There are some who would not agree that only the best Marine pilots get to fly the Harrier. I thought they were flying the V-22...

[SASless]

Shawn,

V-22 or Harrier....both seem like a great waste of talent to me if only the best get picked to fly them and combat operations is the goal of Marine Aviator.

Surely that being the case....F-18's, CH-53's, CH-46's, UH-1's, and Cobra's would be the better choice. Even the ol' C-130 gets more combat time than do the Osprey and Harrier fleets.

[B Sousa]

But here are some serious ideas for the EMS industry:
-Two pilots all the time
-part 135 all the time
-IFR equipped machines
-IFR current crews
-IFR infrastructure and procedures
-NVGs
-EVS
-EGPWS
-more (basic-cig/vis) automated wx reporting devices, say, on all cell towers
-sanctions against those who pressure pilots or shop for a provider willing to take risks others won't
-anonymous safety reporting system with teeth so pilots or others can report abuses/anti-safety pressures

Expensive, sure; put some operators out of business, sure; but what is the cost of lost life? what is the cost of adverse public reaction that leads to over regulation? This industry sector needs to regulate itself NOW, before the gov't puts it out of business without their input.



Since its a Brit forum, I will just say Poppycock... Single Pilot night, single engine works if the Pilot does his job correctly. That is to say many things but to keep it simple, the ability to say no to bad weather and the ability to fly the aircraft.........
You can put toys and more pilots in the aircraft till the cows come home and for sure they are just going to break more expensive toys.:ugh:

[Canuck Guy]

Single Pilot night, single engine works if the Pilot does his job correctly.


But since they obviously aren't doing the job correctly and are killing people at a horrific rate, the current model has to change.

A friend was recently at an American conference for the EMS industry, was a huge eye opener for him. One seminar he sat in on was packed with flight doctors and nurses. The main topic discussed, what to do when your pilot flys the helicopter into IIMC conditions.

Think about this for a second. If you go IIMC, you have about 45 seconds left to live. We all know it. But if poor pilot decision making is so pandemic among American HEMS Ops that they need to put on a bull**** seminar to calm down the medics... I honestly don't know what to say to that.

Fly safe out there guys and gals. Your job isn't worth dying for.:sad:

[XV666]

SASless, I think you've managed a nice little fishing trip, and caught plenty :D

Since its a Brit forum

Brit forum, eh? Keep taking the grumpy pills, they're certainly working :hmm:

;) :cool: :ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

There's no problem going IMC if you're prepared for it, have the equipment for it, are trained for it, and practiced in it.
Obviously, best to avoid it, but if you have no choice, you should know what to do, and how to do it.
I believe that the single best thing we can do is a simple AFCS with altitude hold and heading hold that is used on every flight.

[Deskrider]

It's not just about saying no to bad weather it's flying good in bad weather should the devil present herself. The way I see the trend going, soon no one will take a flight if there is the CHANCE of weather! we all signed on for this mission. In some places more than others weather plays a big factor you either learn the trade or move along. BTW the only real fix on that list is H-TAWS and two pilots,(IFR Birds a given) if you can't handle it with that, get out while you can. One more thing, NVG's are like a bullet proof vest's, they just make you run into that building full of bad guy's faster only to get shot in the face! Careful what you ask Santa for!

-Two pilots all the time
-part 135 all the time
-IFR equipped machines
-IFR current crews
-IFR infrastructure and procedures
-NVGs
-EVS
-EGPWS
Please tell me how to pay for all that!

[slgrossman]

One more thing, NVG's are like a bullet proof vest's, they just make you run into that building full of bad guy's faster only to get shot in the face! Careful what you ask Santa for!

Deskrider,

With a quote like that I really have to ask if you have any actual experience flying with NVG? While there does exist the minuscule risk of misusing the goggles as you describe, the far greater risk is that pilots will simply be able to see the world around them better at night. Heaven forbid!

-Stan-

[Canuck Guy]

the far greater risk is that pilots will simply be able to see the world around them better at night. Heaven forbid!


Giving certain pilots cause to push weather limits at night. Single pilot EMS with NVG?

No thanks, I'll take the bus. :=

[SASless]

There are those that have flown in the dark.....then there's those that have flown at night. Seems some that have never flown with NVG's have done both.

Once you fly with NVG's.....the thought of flying in the dark will scare the bejeeus out of you. Having 20/40 vision with a limited field of view beats hell out of being blind.

Yes...there is an element of risk that one might find yourself in cloud but generally you can see the cloud first. Fog might catch you....but then it will catch you without the NVG's as well.

The safety improvement with NVG's far surpasses any new risks they might present. The very same weather analysis needed for NVG flight is the same for any other flight.

Has there been an accident involving an EMS aircraft while the pilot was using NVG's? I have not heard of one.....has anyone else?

[Shawn Coyle]

SASless:
Very early on, there was an EMS incident involving NVG. I don't know the exact details, but it appeared to be pressing weather - the NVGs didn't pick up the deteriorating vis and the pilot flew into the ground (but all survived). As I said memory is the first thing to er, ah, um - what were we talking about?

[hostile]

If I remembered right somebody told me that 95% NVG accidents is happened in hover or operations near ground. After landing drifting and hit blades to trees or other obstacles, because of limited vision.

Hostile.

[SASless]

That ain't gonna work....not a minute Shawn....you still owe me that bottle!

Now was it old Scot's whisky or a fine Italian wine???

[Devil 49]

"In-flight cloud deck measuring equipment" I hope that's a joke. If it's not, I'm in big trouble when these 'safety improvement rules' come down on me.

I'll repeat: singles and twins; IFR and VFR equipment; IFR and VFR flights; IMC and VMC have all come to grief in the latest spate of night fatals in the US. Yep, weather is a HUGE risk factor, but it doesn't change the basic issues: We're flying stupid because we usually don't schedule our night shifts scientifically. That promotes the situations to take bad decisions and minimizes your ability to deal with them- the pistol is locked and loaded;
We're flying blind- 20/200 to 20/400, nights unaided, can't see and avoid the weather- the muzzles going into the mouth...

The single night US EMS NVG accident I know of is rumored to have been declined for weather by the line pilot, taken by a management-type who removed the goggles to crash, and SURVIVED the crash in mountainous terrain. That's it, as far as I know, for US NVG EMS accidents. In itself, that event's a left-handed endorsement of the technology benefits, the pilot DID survive. NVGs are simply the best equipment- that is, real world- answer to the problem. It's criminal to allow pilots into the cockpit mentally impaired by poor rest- the equivalent of three drinks, typically- but no operator has addressed it, and many pilots ignore it.

Rant mode off.