F-18 down in San Diego

[nippysweetie]

Pictures coming in of what is reported to be an F-18 which came down among houses in San Diego

[nippysweetie]

Several houses badly damaged, not far from airport, but no casualties at moment and apparently there is someone stuck in a tree nearby who may be the pilot

[con-pilot]

Last report is pilot has been recovered alive, no civilian injuries on the ground.

[WPH]

Story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7772344.stm)

[finfly1]

F/A-18 fighter jet crashes into residential area of San Diego | World News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24772908-401,00.html)

[fyrefli]

Richard Bacon on Five Live has just reported that it narrowly avoided landing on a high school (and that the pilot landed under his parachute in the high school grounds).

I am *not* making this up! :D

[Beatriz Fontana]

BBC News at 2200 have just shown the pictures. :mad:!

[206Fan]

Yea i just seen the aerial footage on the news there.. Good job by the pilot for avoiding the school!

[modelman]

Just saw the report on this on ITN.they didn't disappoint::rolleyes:

I heard the words 'plummet' and 'pilot desperately fighting to avoid a school',and:'locals have expected something like this with all the low flying'

Superb journo sh1te.

MM

[ukpilotinca]

Two confirmed fatalities at this moment.

San Diego Union Tribune (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081208-1356-bn08planed3.html)

[Jimmy Macintosh]

It is a little irresponsible journalism. The low flying comment doesn't count, the pilot was trying to get into Mirimar, which he nearly did, then when he couldn't make it he went for an empty canyon. Plane nosed over into the houses soon after ejection.

[GreenKnight121]

Link to local story:
F/A-18 crashes into San Diego neighborhood | L.A. Now | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/12/firefighter-say.html)

Link to Google view of area, with crash site and pilot landing spot marked:
Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=117631292961056724014.00045d8f30834c2686762&t=h&ll=32.862574,-117.18524&spn=0.049313,0.076561&z=14)

[DelaneyT]

...Good job by the pilot for avoiding the school!

________________

" You smile reading newspaper stories about a pilot in a disabled plane that maneuvered to miss a schoolyard before he hit the ground.

That's crap.

In an emergency situation, a pilot thinks only about one thing -- survival. You battle to survive right down to the ground; you think about nothing else. Your concentration is riveted on what to try next. You don't say anything on the radio, and you aren't even aware a schoolyard exists.

That's exactly how it is. "


[-- 'General Chuck Yeager' USAF]


{quoted from his autobiography "Yeager" ; 1985 Bantam Books, page 119}

[Roger Sofarover]

News now reporting three dead.

[0497]

From the LA Times, some selected highlights to be dissected:
Military jet crashes in San Diego neighborhood - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jetcrash9-2008dec09,0,58796,full.story)


By Tony Perry and Richard Marosi
6:33 PM PST, December 8, 2008

Reporting from San Diego -- It was meant to be a routine training mission: a young Marine pilot sharpening his skills flying an F/A-18D Hornet from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln off the San Diego coast.

But as the plane had lifted off the carrier deck, the pilot quickly knew he was in trouble, possibly with a malfunction in one of the plane's engines. He radioed the air controller at Miramar, who ordered the emergency landing attempt.


As the plane crossed over land at Torrey Pines en route to Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, more problems struck, possibly "flame-out" of a second engine. The plane lost altitude and began to wobble.

Residents of the University City neighborhood west of Miramar, accustomed to the sight of warplanes overhead, looked up and knew something was terribly wrong.

......

"It was mushing through the air," Kreischer said. "It was chugging along with what seemed like one engine. Then I heard a roar of engine and all of a sudden, whoop, dead silence.

.....

Marine officials said the pilot was part of a training squadron and that he was trying to aim the plane at a deserted canyon [see google map] to avoid slamming into homes or Interstate 805.

....

Military bomb specialists were combing the area for the second ejection seat, which has an explosive charge. Though the plane normally has a crew of two, only a pilot was aboard for the training mission. The plane was not carrying bombs, the Marines said.

....

[South Bound]

But as the plane had lifted off the carrier deck, the pilot quickly knew he was in trouble, possibly with a malfunction in one of the plane's engines. He radioed the air controller at Miramar, who ordered the emergency landing attempt.

Quite unhelpful reporting, however accurate/inaccurate. Makes me wonder why anyone would fly over a built up area with such a significant issue, when could have ejected safely out at sea. Not saying that is the case, just how this para reads.

Wish pilot and victims' families well.

[modelman]

AIDU wrote

Perhaps you need to retract your statement as it has been reported that two people have been killed in this incident. "Officials say the pilot ejected and landed on a high school baseball field". So not really a time to be having ago at the Journalists.


When would you suggest would be a more suitable time?
News of loss of life ( very sad development) changes nothing as far as the original reporting is concerned.
MM

[modelman]

Just received a PM from AIDU accusing me ( a lowly PPL) of delusions of being like ChucK Yeager ( I wish...) and this apparently disqualifies me from commenting on the mil forum,so goodbye,I am at this moment crawling back under my PPL stone.

MM

[Ewan Whosearmy]

DelaneyT

Yeager might not have thought about anyone else but himself when the **** hit the fan, but there are plenty of documented cases of military pilots who have a) done exactly the opposite - considered the consequences of their a/c crashing into a populated area - and lived and b) done exactly the opposite and sadly died.

While this tendency for the media to say, 'Oh! He stayed with the jet a little longer to make sure he missed the orphanage' is irritating, selfless acts like these do actually happen on occasion.

[GRYHZE]

The husband/father of the ground victims (two children, wife and mother-in-law) made an in-person statement to the media today. He ended the remarks asking that everyone pray for the pilot through this tough period. Despite the complete wipe-out of his family, he asked everyone to think about the pilot.

[Logistics Loader]

Condolences to the families involved in this tragedy...

But could this be a case where the pilot made his decision to leave the jet thinking it was not going to cause damage/casualties..and Newton's law kicked in...??

IIRC a Hunter developed problems many years ago, pilot pointed jet out to sea,... used Martin Baker (?) to good efffect and as he was thinking about his Caterpillar tie, the jet did a gentle 180 and went into Tintagel village...

only casualty, some bloke cleaning windows was knocked from ladder as jet went between 2 houses...

[barnstormer1968]

I have just looked up some photos of the 1979 Hunter crash, the pictures are stunning. What on earth are the chances of any aircraft going right between two houses so very close together, and causing virtually no damage!.

I only feel happy to comment, as there was no loss of life. In cases where there was any fatality, I don't even like to look at any pics at all.


Best thought's and wishes to the man in the San Diego crash on his tragic loss, and added applause for his concern and thoughts over the aircraft's pilot at such a traumatic time.

[forget]

Crash of Vulcan XM610 over County Durham (http://www.neam.co.uk/wingate.html)

As the coastline slipped under the Vulcan's nose Alcock took one last look around then he too pulled his seat pan firing handle.

With no one now on board XM610 enters a downward spiral, instead of crashing into the sea XM610 impacts between the main village and the school at Wingate completely destroying itself and causing a large crater. Luckily no one was hurt on the ground, but if it had crashed 100 yards either side a heavy loss of life would have taken place.

[GreenKnight121]

Once you pull the handle, Murphy is PIC.

[Wangja]

There were 4 casulaties on the ground in San Diego. A grandmother, mother and two children. The grandmother had just arrived from Korea to help the mother with the new-born babe.

The mother was a close friend of my wife. The devestated father, who was at work at the time, was shown on Korean TV news last night and specifically stated he considered the pilot blameless.

[cornish-stormrider]

I have seen the photo's of that hunter in tintagel, I worked with a man who was on the crash and smash team out of Abingdon? IIRC at the time.

Best piece of parking I ever saw.

[And Then]

" You smile reading newspaper stories about a pilot in a disabled plane that maneuvered to miss a schoolyard before he hit the ground.

That's crap.

What about The Great Santini?

[TripleBravo]

Sorry to disagree with Chuck Yeager.

Some time ago, I went into serious trouble with a small plane with the subsequent decision to land ASAP before I fall out of the sky. Fortunately, a runway was within reach. So I landed without permission (couldn't care less), 7700 and cars on the (big enough) runway with a civil aircraft on a military restricted area - and happy to be alive and in one peace back on mother earth.

But I still had time to think about my descent path and avoided to overfly some residential area - just in case I wouldn't make it.

True story. Yes, you can.

[brickhistory]

Hmm, glide ratio of a GA vs. an engineless Hornet?

Odds of surviving each?

Dense housing built next to and onto the approach to Miramar?

Right...

[DX Wombat]

Modelman don't take any notice of AIDU, he just likes stirring things. He has no grounds to criticise the fact that you have only a PPL* as, to quote his own words elsewhere, he doesn't have even that. :E

Do be serious. Why would I want to pass myself off as a Pilot? It's obvious where I work and I make no secret about it. AIDU.
* There is nothing "ONLY" about a PPL
On a more pleasant note, what a wonderfully generous, sympathetic person the gentleman who has lost his entire family appears to be. What a dreadful time he must be suffering too.

[Al R]

Cornish said: I have seen the photo's of that hunter in tintagel, I worked with a man who was on the crash and smash team out of Abingdon? IIRC at the time. Best piece of parking I ever saw.

Some things never change it seems. An interesting tale..

Tintagel Plane Crash Story (http://www.tintagelweb.co.uk/Tintagel%20Plane%20Crash.htm)

http://www.tintagelweb.co.uk/images/Plane%20Crash%20Photos/aero.gif

[modelman]

Thanks for the support,I did also receive a PM of support and advice to add AIDU to my ignore list (never used that facility before).

I too was struck by the comments from the victims' father/husband for his concern for the pilot's wellbeing.
My original post was borne out of my absolute contempt for poor/shoddy/lazy/inaccurate and sensationalist reportage (on any subject-not just aviation).

Time to move on and wish the pilot a speedy recovery and the victims relatives strength to rebuild their lives.

MM

[TripleBravo]

Brickhistory,

please re-read. I said I disagree with Chuck Yeager's quotation that it would be impossible to think about others when you have to manage an emergency. I didn't say it's always possible to avoid Newton's law. :=

[DelaneyT]

Yeager might not have thought about anyone else but himself when the sh_t hit the fan, but there are plenty of documented cases of military pilots who have... done exactly the opposite... selfless acts like these do actually happen on occasion. (-- Ewan Whosearmy)

_______


So you agree (..selfless acts "on occasion") -- that there's some truth to Yeager's viewpoint ?

Does your view (plenty of selfless pilots) or Yeager's view (mostly survival-motivated pilots) predominate in the real world of such military piloting emergencies ?

Care to cite the specifics of one or two of these 'documented cases', similar to this F-18 crash circumstance, where the pilot deliberately maneuvered away from a school/hospital/etc. seconds before impact/ejection ?

[Brian Abraham]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/F3.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/F1.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/F2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/F4.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/F-1.jpg
So near and yet so far, and unfortunate not to have fallen in open ground.

[Machaca]

Pilot declined closer alternate:

Military jet had chance to land before fatal crash
By MICHAEL R. BLOOD and ELLIOT SPAGAT
Associated Press Writers
Mar 3, 4:31 PM EST

SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The pilot of a crippled military jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood and killed four people was offered a chance shortly before impact to land at a base with an approach over open water rather than head inland, recordings released Tuesday indicate.

Recordings of conversations between federal air controllers and the pilot of the F/A-18D reveal that the pilot at least twice was offered a chance to put down the plane at the Naval Air Station North Island in Coronado. The base sits at the tip of a peninsula with a flight path over water.

Instead, the Federal Aviation Administration tapes disclose that the pilot decided to fly the jet, which had lost one engine and was showing signs of trouble with the second, to the inland Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, which is about 10 miles north of Coronado.

That route took him over the University City neighborhood, where the Dec. 8 crash incinerated two homes and damaged three others.

Officials in Washington, D.C., said Tuesday that 13 Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors in connection with the crash. Service officials told members of Congress that four Marine Corps officers have been relieved of duty for directing the Hornet to fly over the residential area. Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at Coronado.

It's difficult to determine the pilot's precise location from the tapes, but he reported his position as 20 miles south of Coronado, flying at 13,000 feet with 20 to 30 minutes of fuel remaining, less than a minute before he was asked by controllers if he wanted to land at Coronado, according to the recordings.

When air controllers told him a runway was available at Coronado, the pilot said, "I'm actually going to try to take it to Miramar if possible."

According to the tapes, air controllers gave the pilot instructions that would allow for a landing at Coronado or Miramar. At one point he was given a heading to follow but indicated he was having trouble with the jet.

"I'm trying, sir, but single engine," the pilot said.

The pilot said he wanted to land at Miramar and told controllers to have emergency crews ready on the ground.

The pilot told the air controllers at one point he was within sight of Miramar, but about two minutes later, according to the tapes, an unidentified pilot reported seeing smoke on the ground near Miramar.

The pilot ejected safely.

Four members of a Korean family were killed in their home - Young Mi Yoon, 36; her daughters Grace, 15 months, and Rachel, 2 months; and her mother Suk Im Kim, 60. Kim was visiting from South Korea to help her daughter move across town and adjust to the arrival of her second child.

Military officials say the jet suffered a rare double engine failure, and Marine generals initially defended the choice to send the Hornet to Miramar.

The disclosures in the tapes raise the possibility that the crash might have been averted. Since the crash, a lingering question has been why the pilot didn't attempt a landing at Coronado over open water.

Military officials have said that after the first engine faltered, Miramar was a straight shot and that going to North Island would have required more engine thrust.

But the tapes indicate that the ailing jet apparently was closer to Coronado when the pilot reported a possible problem with the second engine.

Miramar is ringed by freeways and bordered on its western end by residential areas that include a high school.

A Marine Corps spokesman, Maj. Manuel Delarosa, in December declined to disclose the plane's location when the engine trouble began or whether the aircraft was capable of reaching Coronado, citing the ongoing investigation.

In private briefings with members of Congress, military officials have reportedly said there were factors that made landing at North Island unfeasible, but those issues have not been disclosed publicly.

Miramar dates to 1917, when the site was used to train troops headed to World War I. As late as the 1950s, it was still miles beyond San Diego's urban fringe, but homes have since been built right up to the edge of the base, where the Navy established its "Top Gun" fighter training school in 1969.

[DelaneyT]

.... Also:

"... though mechanics had identified a fuel-transfer glitch in {the mishap} jet sometime ago, the Marine Corps flew 146 more sorties with it before the Dec. 8 crash.

The Marine Corps now requires aircraft to be grounded when they have a fuel-transfer problem...

Meanwhile, the Federal Aviation Administration made the recordings public in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by The San Diego Union-Tribune and other media organizations. It twice delayed the release because of pressure from the Marine Corps, which asked for additional time to complete its investigation into the crash.

The FAA recordings show {the mishap pilot} understood his predicament shortly after leaving the flight deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln around 11:30 a.m...

{the mishap pilot} manually turned off his first engine because of the fuel-transfer trouble.

...He tried unsuccessfully to establish contact with the aircraft carrier...

An FAA air traffic controller at Miramar offered to direct {the mishap F-18}... toward Runway 36 at North Island. That approach would have kept the aircraft over water until it touched down.

Visibility was good under mostly cloudy skies at the time, weather records show.

I'm actually going to try to make it to Miramar if possible, {the mishap pilot} replied as he flew at an altitude of about 13,000 feet nearly 20 miles south of North Island.

Two minutes later, the controller directed {the mishap pilot} on a path that would let him fly by North Island on his way toward Miramar.

The recordings don't reveal whether {the mishap pilot} acted on his own in bypassing North Island or if he was acting under orders from his commanders.

But he told the controller, I'm coordinating with people on the ground to figure out what we're doing..."

_________

Safety procedures not followed before fatal jet crash, Marines say (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/03/4bn03crash-procedures-not-followed/?zIndex=61394)

[DelaneyT]

...more:

" (CNN) -- Deferred maintenance, faulty decisions by controllers and the pilot of a fighter jet contributed to an aircraft's fatal crash into a San Diego, California, neighborhood in December, the Marine Corps announced Tuesday...

The commander of the fighter squadron involved in the crash, its top maintenance officer and two others have been relieved of duty as a result of the crash investigation. The pilot has been grounded pending a further review..."

Nine other Marines have received other disciplinary action..."



____________

Marines sack 4 over deadly California plane crash - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/03/plane.crash/)

[Vox Populi]

Pressonitis?

[airborne_artist]

Or a sad example of how having two engines just gets you to the scene of the crash a bit sooner?

[West Coast]

Or an example of how hundreds, likely thousands of other times having two engines has saved the day. Pilots of SE tactical jets have pressed on in situations they likely shouldn't have as well. This isn't a single engine vs two engine issue.

[GreenKnight121]

More an issue of a student pilot (transitioning to type) relying on the advice of those more qualified in the aircraft than he... and getting bad advice.

[BEagle]

Perhaps the pilot was led into a false sense of security by the 'committee' advising him over the radio?

My experience as a duty bod in the tower was that, at the slightest hint of a student emergency, every man and his dog would try to get to the tower to add their 'advice'. So we adopted the principle that the duty authoriser would be the only person allowed in and the duty aircrew officer would bar the door to everyone else - station commander included (although he knew that).

A review of the emergency procedures, then 'land as soon as possible' was all that should have been needed. But this sounds like a complex emergency rather than just a single engine failure, so advice from the ground seems reasonable to me. From an expert, though, not from a committee.

[DelaneyT]

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2009/03/04/090304map_crash_t450.jpg?613272c032846e7268e57ee632edc6288ef b17ce[url]

[BHBA]

" (CNN) -- Deferred maintenance, faulty decisions by controllers and the pilot of a fighter jet contributed to an aircraft's fatal crash into a San Diego, California, neighborhood in December, the Marine Corps announced Tuesday...

The commander of the fighter squadron involved in the crash, its top maintenance officer and two others have been relieved of duty as a result of the crash investigation. The pilot has been grounded pending a further review..."

Nine other Marines have received other disciplinary action..."

The Marine Corps has always fought for its existence since its start. Maybe this is another tragic example why doing more with less will come around full circle. And the head Marine brass wonders why we have a higher accident rate...

[DelaneyT]

Pilot's statement points to confusion (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/25/1n25jet011211-pilots-statement-points-confusion/)





The pilot's statement, released as part of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing's investigation, shows a young aviator overwhelmed by the cascade of problems he faced after taking off from the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln...

It also shows he received an array of conflicting advice from those on the ship and on the ground, who seemed to be confused about {an} increasingly dire situation. Authorities first told him to return to the aircraft carrier, then directed him to North Island, then decided that he should land at Miramar.

Yesterday's report provided the first public airing of {the pilot's} version of events and gave more details about the orders he received... investigators blamed {the mishap F-18 pilot} for not questioning misguided directives more forcefully. The pilot had asked authorities several times to confirm their orders.

He “demonstrated an unacceptable lack of assertiveness even given his lack of experience,” the document concluded. “By neglecting to emphasize his (fuel problems) and failing to question base's decision to send him to Miramar, (he) allowed himself to be put into an untenable position.” ...



:rolleyes:

[glad rag]

The pilot had asked authorities several times to confirm their orders.

He “demonstrated an unacceptable lack of assertiveness even given his lack of experience,” the document concluded. “By neglecting to emphasize his (fuel problems) and failing to question base's decision to send him to Miramar, (he) allowed himself to be put into an untenable position.” ...

BS!!:=

[FOG]

The Safety Investigation Report has been out for a while. The SIR is For Official Use Only and is not for public release nor subject to FOIA requests.

A redacted version of the JAG/Command investigation has been released with the Commanding General's endorsement.

I do not believe that administrative (permanent grounding, resignation, etc.) actions are publicly disclosed.

S/F, FOG