RT question

[liam548]

Years of airband listening will hopefully help me in this exam tomorrow. I didn't realise until starting the book that the spacing had changed to 8.33khz though from 25khz, when did this happen?

Can someone carify the following...

I always thought frequencies were spoken to 2 decimal places e.g

123.750 Leeds Bradford approach would be wun two tree dayseemal seven fife

Book 7 of the air pilots manual states that in fact all 6 digits are pronounced unless the last 2 digets are zero in which case you pronounce the first 4. 119.000 wun wun niner dayseemal zero for example.


Now I took this on board and went to do the questions in the confuser.

Question 29- The correct transmission and pronunciation of the RTF frequency 125.875MHz would be:

A) 125.875 spoken as "WUN HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIFE DAYSEEMAL AIT SEVEN FIFE"

B) 125.875 spoken as "WUN TOO FIFE DAYSEEMAL AIT SEVEN FIFE"

C) 125.87 spoken as "WUN HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIFE DAYSEEMAL AIT SEVEN"

D) 125.87 spoken as "WUN TOO FIFE DAYSEEMAL AIT SEVEN"

So before reading the book I would have answered D.

I have read the book so I put B. According to the confuser this is wrong and the answer is D.

Am I missing something? What will the real exam expect to have as the correct answer?

Liam

[Fright Level]

didn't realise the spacing had changed to 8.33khz though from 25khz, when did this happen?

Several years ago but it was limited to ATC frequencies above FL200 so that only the airlines had to spend money to update their radios. Most GA stuff is still 25khz channel spacing though the Garmin 430/530 has an option in the menu to switch to 8.33khz.

CAP413 1.4.4 matches your answer B but I have rarely heard this followed in practise. Answer D is the normal response but technically it's the wrong answer. Perhaps you should contact the publishers?

[batninth]

Liam,

I did my RT last week - I followed your method as per answer (D) and was not marked down at all for it.

Frankly, don't worry - they don't expect you to be perfect, they do expect you to be safe.

Hope it goes well

[liam548]

Liam,

I did my RT last week - I followed your method as per answer (D) and was not marked down at all for it.

Frankly, don't worry - they don't expect you to be perfect, they do expect you to be safe.

Hope it goes well


thanks for that. So the real exam goes for the real world method of D rather than the full frequency as per B? Or are you referring to the practical RT exam comms test as I am doing the written paper tomorrow.

Liam

[BackPacker]

How old is your confuser?

(Serious question: I think they stopped printing and updating the confuser some years ago and this might simply not have been incorporated anymore.)

Or are you referring to the practical RT exam comms test

In the R/T practical, just as in real life, you just read back whatever the examiner/ATC throws at you. Be it three, four, five or six numbers, with or without a "decimal".

[liam548]

mine is eighth edition and i got it a few months ago

looks like number 9 out

PPL Confuser - New Edition 9 @ Flightstore Pilot Supplies (http://www.flightstore.co.uk/prod/PPLCON/)

[Whirlygig]

Answer B is correct and it wouldn't be the first time The Confuser has some duff answers!

Cheers

Whirls

[Whopity]

8.33 KHz spacing was introduced over 5 years ago. Initially the new frequencies were spoken as Channels but this proved to be too difficult and Eurocontrol changed the method of reading frequencies about 3 years ago. All frequencies must use 6 digits unless the last two digits are both zero. That is what you are required to do on the radio and in the test.

The practical tests however do not include any frequencies that do not end in two zeros so you will not have the opportunity to display you knowledge! The written exams do! The confuser is based on old exam papers.

The real answer is always in CAP413

[IO540]

The correct answer is the one which the exam paper expects!! It doesn't have to be right.

As for e.g. 123.75 or 123.750, I think all ATCOs speak it as 123.75.

Similarly, 123.8 is spoken as 123.8 but I say it as 123.80.

The difference appears on say 120.225 which some speak as 120.22 and others as 120.225. On a real radio this is unambiguous when you come to actually set it.

125.875 looks like an 8.33 frequency but again it is unambiguous on a real 8.33 radio if you just tell somebody to set 125.87. The difference on an 8.33 radio is that it actually displays all six digits so 120.225 and 125.875 will both show in full, whereas a non-8.33 radio will show the former as 120.22 and one obviously cannot select the latter.

[Whirlygig]

I think all ATCOs speak it as 123.75.
Not the ones I speak to! They would add the "zero" on the end; as, indeed, do I (otherwise I might get told off!).

Cheers

Whirls

[flybymike]

123.750 is Leeds Approach (where I am based)

Controllers invariably use all six digits, and I invariably reply with just the first five...;)

[Fright Level]

As mentioned, CAP413 is the definitive document. NATS are very particular about RT discipline and have recently added the requirement to say the word "degrees" after a heading instruction except if it ends in a 5 (eg "turn left heading 270 degrees"). They also require the word "altitude" in climb/descent instructions, eg "descend altitude five thousand feet".

CAP413 1.4.4 clearly says All six figures shall be used when identifying frequencies irrespective of whether they are 25 kHz or 8.33 kHz spaced. Exceptionally, when the final two digits of the frequency are both zero, only the first four digits need be given.

The CAA sent all commercial pilots a booklet earlier in the year entitled
CAP 413 Supplement: A Quick Reference Guide to UK Phraseology for Commercial Air Transport Pilots (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2772)
and I understand there is a plan to eventually issue similar for private pilots.

If you are starting out, then there is only one method to learn. Plenty of accidents have been attributed to poor RT discipline. If the book is wrong, it needs correcting, not for you to start your flying with incorrect habits "because it said so".

[Romeo India Xray]

Yes, your confuser is out of date. CAP 413 the publication to use. Only other thing I have to say is ... Good luck for the exam!

RIX

[liam548]

Yes, your confuser is out of date. CAP 413 the publication to use. Only other thing I have to say is ... Good luck for the exam!

RIX

my confuser is only 4 months old and they are still selling it in most places, only found one site that says it is edition 9.

Anyway did the RT theory today and got... 100%!!!

Calendar News were there too filming a woman in her 80s doing a passenger aeorbatics ride, think it will be on tonights news. (ITV yorkshire)

;)


Number 4 exam is going to be NAV, looks a tough one. :)

Liam

[liam548]

VIDEO: Nora, 87, takes to skies with 4,000ft aerobatic flight - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/VIDEO-Nora-87-takes-to.4768353.jp)

[Jumbo Driver]

... 125.875 looks like an 8.33 frequency but again it is unambiguous on a real 8.33 radio if you just tell somebody to set 125.87.

IO540, 125.875 is NOT an 8.33 frequency, it is at 25kHz spacing - and transmits on 125.875 MHz.

125.880 is the 8.33 frequency that transmits on 125.875 MHz.


JD
:)

[bookworm]

my confuser is only 4 months old and they are still selling it in most places, only found one site that says it is edition 9.

It is, nevertheless, out of date if it is giving answer D. The correct answer up to 1 May 2006 was D. The correct answer after that date is B.

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/yellow/EG_Circ_2006_Y_038_en.pdf

[liam548]

Another question which has nothing to do with being out of date but I think is just wrong in the confuser is:-

The commander of aircraft G-BGGA wishing to obtain a "true bearing" from a VDF station to be plotted directly on a chart should use the following RT protocol:

a) _________ QDR, QDR, G-BGGA requests QDR, G-BGGA

b) _________ true bearing, true bearing, G-BGGA requests true bearing, G-BGGA

c) _________ QTE,QTE, G-GBBA requests QTE, G-BGGA

d) _________ QDM, QDM, G-BGGA requests DM, G-BGGA

book says B is correct, I say it is C and probably always has been.

Liam

[Jumbo Driver]

I would suggest that answer (b) is correct - and always has been. That's what I was taught nearly 40 years ago ...

That answer also agrees with CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF), Chapter 6 Page 11, viz:
QTE - True bearing of the aircraft from the station (i.e. ...... True bearing, True bearing ..... Approach G-ABCD request True bearing (or QTE) G-ABCD).


JD
:)

[Flik Roll]

People say the 'decimal'?

:eek:

[liam548]

I would suggest that answer (b) is correct - and always has been. That's what I was taught nearly 40 years ago ...

That answer also agrees with CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF), Chapter 6 Page 11, viz:



JD
:)

stand corrected then :)

[Fright Level]

Not only is the confuser out of date but the ministry still insist on completely irrelevant stuff in the syllabus. In 20 years of flying I have never asked for, nor ever heard anyone getting bearings to/from a station.

It's clearly a hangover from pre radar/nav aid days (although I see a couple of UK airports still have published VDF approaches). During my studies we had to learn Decca & Loran. When I asked the CAA they said it was because there were still some helicopters with it installed so everyone had to learn it!

It's a shame they don't update this stuff more regularly and bring the learning process up to date. I'm sure a new student is more keen to learn a GPS and the function of ANR headsets than some jolly hockeysticks handlebar moustached techniques for getting the Lanc down when the weather socks in and all that's left on the altimeter is the makers name :}