Cardiff Academy of Aviation

[2close]

I received some unsubstantiated info yesterday (from that part of the world)that this organisation has just folded.

Despite firing off e-mails for more info nothing seems to be coming back.

Can anyone shed any light on this, please? Fact or Rumour Control run amok again?

Cheers,

2close

[gone_fishing]

I too would be highly interested to hear some news on this. I've rung them, and there's no answering machine message.

[AlphaMale]

Looks like a potential school for my CPL/MEP/IR might now have a line through it :(

They seemed fairly busy when I was there last (probably local pilots as opposed to students waiting for training mind you).

[bshort]

Does anyone know what is happening at the Academy.

I have a trial flight booked for the 4th Jan with them, a christmas present from last year which has been cancelled quite a few times because of weather problems.

Looks like it won't happen now. I have phoned a couple of times everyday for the past week but there is no answer.

Would be nice to know if they have gone t*t's up.

Regards

[snips]

I popped in there a few weeks ago. It all looked desperate. Punters turning up for trials lesson only to find the planes had no fuel or were broke, instructors not being paid so they had gone. I believe the MD/Manager works for the company next door to the flying school.

Its a pity, a great location, loads of potential.

[Parson]

If this is true, it's a shame that there is no longer a viable flying club at Cardiff as it's a great location to learn and fly from.

There has been a history of clubs going bust there and I'm not surprised if CAA are going the same way. I think that CWL management would rather not have any light aircraft getting in the way of their "busy" commercial ops.

Having said that, I've popped into CAA a couple of times since it's formation and I've never felt so unwelcome - if they're on the way down, I've no sympathy. And why anyone would go anywhere near them for commercial training beggars belief.

[barry flyer]

been to club and there is now a notice on the door that the academy has ceased trading ! looks terminal this time!:uhoh:

[pipertommy]

Heard students from Cardiff are using Cambrian in Swansea for PPL training, looks like a really good set up.

Only posting this as a help to students wondering which way to turn.
Good luck all:)

[2close]

Yes, it seems to have gone tits up and this is very bad news for GA as a C-152 can no longer park 'south side' and has to visit the North Side terminal and apparently part with £ 65.00 (on top of landing fee for the privilege of having some disinterested oik come across to your aircraft and point at an empty spot of tarmac for you to negotiate said spamcan in amongst the 10,000+ square metres of empty tarmac. :rolleyes:

And FFS don't go in at night because then disinterested oik will have to charge you double because it is so much more difficult to park a plane in an empty football field at night than by day!!

Apologies for sarcasm but this is a pi55 take!! It is so busy at CWL they don't need GA money, obviously!!! :rolleyes:

[barry flyer]

there is a note on the door that the club is ' no longer trading' looks like the end !:{

[cheeseman]

Presumably the bar/restaurant has fallen victim too? Pity if so - the very last vantage point to see absolutely anything at Cardiff.

[barry flyer]

good news the bar/restaurant is going well and open to all and will continue even though the club has gone:ok:

[MRPV3333333333]

I have purchased a 1 hour trial flight with this company and was wondering if anyone knew how I could contact them as I have paid for it but everytime I try contacting them I get no response.

[gopearce]

This is has really :mad: me off! I was on the phone to them early December and they assured me I could get a flight in January. No mention of trouble, going under etc! Why are these companys allowed to take money when they know they cant deliver? I know times are tough but its tough for everyone! I have e-mailed them with no reply. The phones have been switched off! Has anyone got their money back? Do you think I can? This was a gift for my 30th and a suprise for me on returning from Afghanistan. Thank you CAA!!!:D

[Mariner9]

If you paid by credit card you could get the money back from your card company

[gopearce]

Nope, paid for by Debit card! Will wait and see if I get a response from them. Thanks for the info though.

[2close]

Gopearce,

According to Companies House the company is still trading, so you may want to make moves now before it is placed into administration.

I wouldn't hold out any hope of getting a reply from any contact with the company via their offices though.

HTH

2close

[gopearce]

Hi 2close, what do you recommend I do if you say not to go through the company itself? I have never dealt with this problem before. I defo would like my 170 quid back!

Thanks for you help guys. I hope I aint hijacking this thread!

Gaz

[Welshflying]

To be honest it was not very well run and not really very friendly flying school I started my ppl there then decided to go else where . They had a few good instructors who they let go, im sure there are a lot of people who have lost money that is on account, they have been having problems for a while and recently asked its members to pay there fees early, the planes were always tec. Im sure a new school will start as Cardiff is a great place to learn how to fly

[rsutt1]

Dear 2Close,

I have just read your post with the Cardiff Academy of Aviation thread on PPRune and must admit that I am a little annoyed as being to referred to as an 'Uninterested Oik.'

You write the post as if you have never been to visit us on the northside of Cardiff as yet, yet you think you know enough about me and my colleagues to refer to us as 'oiks' which according to the Oxford Dictionary makes us out to be unpleasent and crude.

We are just as disappointed as all of you that the flying club has folded, I am good friends with many of the pupils, instructors and staff and to see them out of work and forced to continue flying elsewhere is upsetting to me.

In relation to the north side parking, well that is the decision of Cardiff Airport and not of ourselves. We are a handling agent and it just so happens that our minimum handling rate is £65. That is not something I drew up but a standard rate for our company nationwide. If a person wants to fly into Cardiff we make a point of advising them of the costs involved and if they still wish to visit us then I can assure you that a C152 will get the same service as a GLF5 or BBJ. I can assure that I/we are very interested in our customers and will continue to offer them the best possible service we can whatever aircraft thay arrive in.

Thank you


Ryan

[scott_cardiff]

2close

Just as well I never started my PPL training at Cardiff! I did go down there just before they went bust and almost handed over my membership fee!!

Oh well, looks as if it's Bristol :)

Scott

[rsutt1]

yes, handling is compulsary at cardiff

[pipertommy]

Well said Ryan!!! Always provide and great service mate.

Ps
Swansea offers a good service to people wishing to achieve a PPL.

Good Luck.

[rsutt1]

Nathaniel,

Overheads are massive for the White Building, talking at least 25k a year.
.

Ryan

[rsutt1]

Well that includes the upstairs but that has been leased out direct to the ppl who were running it when the club were there.

However... I reckon you'd still be looking at 20k plus though. especially with rates etc. as far as i am aware (this is not confirmed) the acadmy were paying in excess of 30k per year including the restaurant space. I'm not sure if that was with or without rates.

Given the current 'economic climate' I reckon deals could be done with the airport authority or maybe just take over a small section of the building.

I think if it was intended to be run as a members run / non-profit organisation then a break even is possible with the right ppl on board and enough interested members. That is based on leasing a small area of the building.

Ryan

[2close]

Hi Ryan,

It would be easy for me to respond to your PM via PM but I'll do so in the open as I'm not too big to apologise if I feel I may have offended and I do so unreservedly for my use of the word 'oik' although I really did not mean it in it's literal context.

I have always been very complimentary of the services received at Cardiff and I'm also not suggesting that you personally or your colleagues at Cardiff aren't interested in your job - it was a generalisation based on personal experiences (but not at Cardiff I should add, although waiting southside for nearly 2 hours for fuel, during which time only one other aircraft landed, which was 20% more expensive than anywhere else locally didn't exactly endear me to the service - funnily enough the aircraft didn't fly 20% faster!!).

I also appreciate that the guy on the ground has no control over fees, however, I will qualify my statement regarding handling fees for GA as being a total rip-off as there appears little if any justification for them. There are stacks of aerodromes all over the UK where the tower gives a simple instruction "Park on Line 4, Space B" and we can manage that by ourselves quite easily. On the flip side, every time I have been 'handled' in the UK I have been directed towards a space big enough to park a battleship in which did not require marshalling.

Draw a comparison with the USA where the marshaller will direct you into a tight space, chock the aircraft, tie it down, arrange your fuel, give you a lift to the FBO, arrange a hotel and taxi or even take you there himself, generally all for the pricely sum of $ 0.00. That is a service worth paying for and they charge you nothing whereas in the UK we get charged the earth and don't get anything remotely resembling the same service.

Recently, in Corfu, the Handling Agent picked us up at the aircraft and took us to the terminal, arranged the hotel, taxi and fuel for the following morning then met us the following day and accompanied us all the way through the booking out and FPL filing (including a visit to the tower to discuss the best route with ATC) and took us back to the aircraft again - the service was first class and cost about £ 40 for the landing, overnight parking and exceptional handling service. The landing fee alone in most UK aerodromes would have been more than that.

The point I am making is that in the UK we get virtually nothing for our money and I resent that. Where a decent value-for-money service is provided I have no problem with paying for it but I do not feel this is the current status quo with handling fees for GA.

Please tell me I'm wrong - what do we get at Cardiff for our £ 65.00?

How much will you charge me for handling at Cardiff if I have to divert there at 10 o'clock at night owing to bad weather or an unexpected problem?

[pencisely]

Nathanial, you are young and very keen and I hate to dampen such enthusiasm. Believe me that over the years the flying operation has been run as both a business and a members owned club. Both models have their merits -

As a business the management can make executive decisions without recourse to the members but there is never enough profit to give an investor a return.

As a members club the politics and committee paralysis eventually come to the fore and kill the organisation.

The running costs of such an operation are very high and the big variables of weather and unforeseen costs, usually aircraft maintenance, make it very difficult to do anything other than firefight.

It is very unlikely that the airport would entertain another operation but even if they would my advice as someone who has been involved in the past would be to keep well away. You really will be letting yourself in for a grim experience.

The only viable model in my opinion is for one of the more established national flying operations to set up a branch in Cardiff but I guess in the current economy this is highly unlikely.

Remember the old adage that "the way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a very large one" - sadly there are many who once showed your enthusiasm who can testify to the wisdom in this.:=

[civil aviation]

Nat may be the next Branson but many have tried and failed to make it pay. To add to the above,
GA generally and FTO's especially are a nightmare here for numerous reasons
Larger airports (notice how they're nearly all 'International') are allowed to price in a way which makes GA use prohibitively expensive. Even if you can tolerate that, the building rent, fuel cost etc will screw you again.
Any operator (Commercial or 'Club') faces, also, the problem of obtaining adequate utilisation of aircraft and other overheads. Apart from weather, FTO demand is usually either minimal (e.g.weekdays in Winter) or excessive (e.g. calm and sunny weekend in Summer). All that makes it difficult to provide continuity of employment for engineers, instructors etc. The net result is that the student pays a fortune for what is often an unsatisfactory experience but, even then, the FTO isn't making any money !
The better GA and training environment in the USA is down partly to Government and partly to better business as well as, generally, better weather in Florida, California etc.
Landing charges are not allowed at any airports (most) which have had funding from taxes. Also, many GA businesses sell fuel so are keen to make you want to 'call-in'. FTO's achieve much higher utilisation because of weather and offering course or hour building packages to customers. Also, fuel is much cheaper ( currently about 40p litre) as, I assume, are parts and other aviation supplies. Hence, a much cheaper and better flying experience.
The Florida airport with which I am familar has good runways (but has no scheduled or charter services), tower, modern buildings and 24 hour self-service fuel (see Ormond Beach Aviation - Home Page - Welcome! (http://www.flyoba.com)).
Ormond Beach is by no means unique and the USA has many similar airports which are streets ahead of the alternatives in the UK.

[rsutt1]

2close,

We do understand that our fuel rate is on the higher side locally but this again is not set by myself. Our bowser is leased from AirBP who don't want to operate it themselves, fair enough I think. 40000 litres of Jet-A1 or 40 litres of Avgas.... I think I know where the money is....

As a result the bowser had previously been leased to an old flying club who folded and then ourselves. And if we didnt operate it what stable company would?

I know you may have to wait for fuel at times and I apologize for that but unfortunately our primary business is handling. If you do have to wait then we usually have passengers or crew with us. The process does not start or end when the aircraft arrives or departs and on weekends there is only one of us on duty.

There is no argument about the UK being expensive for GA, i completely agree and if it was a reasonable rate i'd probably have done a PPL myself at some point.

With your point of marshalling i agree that us pointing you to a massive space is OTT but it is a requirement of most airport authorities including Cardiff.

And for a 2200 diversion into Cardiff, I know the point you are trying make and yes it is alot when you consider the OOH charges etc but those OOH charges are the same for every a/c type, that way it is fair.

Ryan

[korrol]

Although the flying academy - or whatever it was called, has closed there is still a pleasant bar/restaurant called "The Flying Club" on the site which is open all day every day. The licensee there tells me that over the years there have been no fewer than 22 flying clubs which have been started - and gone bust - at Cardiff Airport.

[Michael Birbeck]

In a moment of nostalgia I did a search for Cardfiff Wales Flying Club where I had many a good time flying a motley collection of Traumahawks and PA28's and garnering a rating or two in the mid 90's (and flying with some really nice people) only to find out that I am half a decade out and the club went bust in 2004 only to be replaced by a flying academy that has just recently gone bust.:(

What is up with this airport?

It seemed to be an ideal place for ab initio through to ATPL training, giving the student the experience of flying at an international airport (Class D airspace) with ILS, NDB and the unrestricted non TMA constrained flying over some really stunning country out to the north and west (I remember mixing it with people getting Airbus type ratings etc. and being pleasantly surprised that with a friendly and efficient air traffic control set up that it all seemed to work, no matter what you were flying).

Rumour has it that the international part of the airport (north side) is also feeling the down turn.

What a waste! Surely there must be mileage in looking to build a training organisation on the South Side? :ugh:

[pipertommy]

Hi,

I learned with CWFC and really did enjoy the experience, it is sadly missed.

If you want to get back into a PA38 they are all down Swansea with a large amount of Cardiff students.

Pop in and recapture the excitement:}

If you want to enjoy general aviation in South Wales Swansea is the place for you.

[Parson]

MB,

Your are spot on, Cardiff/South East Wales is crying out for a GA base, notwithstanding the current downturn. It was a real shame to watch CWFC go down the tubes as there were some very good people there and one very good career instructor left aviation altogether. Poor management the root cause, though I don't think the authorities on the north side were totally behind GA flying.

As for the recent outfit, popped in there twice a couple of years back and couldn't get back out quick enough - very unfriendly and rude. Not surprised they went to the wall.

I believe Swansea is good, but if you live in Cardiff or anywhere north or east of it, Swansea is just too far - hour plus to get there which ain't the best preparation for a lesson if you've dashed down there after work. May be OK for some, but wouldn't have worked for me.

Lets hope when things pick up that GA training will return to SE Wales for there is the catchment to support it.

P

[Michael Birbeck]

@Pipertommy

It would be great to fly the PA38 again. I will make an X country to Swansea later this summer (based in Essex these days). Is it my fading memory or wasn't the runway there shaped a little like a banana? Whatever the case, it seemed a friendly field and club. :).


@Parsom

I agree it is a great shame. I do remember that when I was training at Cardiff that I started with a company called Wings, which promptly went bust when I joined, so I graduated to CWF. Was trained by a really nice guy called Dave Sarver. I believe he went on to BA to fly Embraers. If one wanted to do some IR practice is there an ILS at Swansea?

Best to all

MB

[pipertommy]

Yes Rwy 22 does have a slight hump/dip behond the TDZ but nothing to major.

You should come in to Swansea a real hub of activity on Saturday and Sundays.

[AlphaMale]

I believe Swansea is good, but if you live in Cardiff or anywhere north or east of it, Swansea is just too far

I am at Swansea and I can't praise them enough, I am 1hrs drive from Cambrian and 1hr / 1hr10mins from B-F-C/Aeros respectively. Swansea has the cost benefit and is no doubt quieter so not much time is wasted waiting around at the holding point for other planes on finals to land.

I'm happy with the choice I made and can't fault the friendly instructors or the clubs fleet.

I would agree that a 0-fATPL FTO would be perfect at CWL though, I'd certainly consider it being only 15/20 mins away.