Working for the AAIB

[Deeday]

Hi everybody,

I'm fairly new here (not even sure this is the right forum for this thread) and I was wondering: does anybody in here work as an AAIB inspector, or know someone who does? and how is it like? I see on their website that they only have 55 staff (and are not even recruiting right now) so it must be quite tough to be taken on board.

I'm asking because I personally regard that as the ultimate profession in aerospace engineering and sometimes fantasise about being part of that organisation, one day. I'm not short of univeristy qualifications (on my way to becoming Chartered Engineer) and currently work in flight simulation. I'm also a student pilot, although the NPPL is all I can legally aspire to. What I lack is "extensive professional aviation engineering experience". Anybody knows how extensive it has to be?

I'm sure many will agree that the work of the AAIB is invaluable. I also wonder about the human side of it. I suppose it's not easy to explain to somebody that their son got killed most likely because of his incompetence as a pilot, or worse, and do so without being judgemental.

Any advice or accounts of personal experiences will be much appreciated. Thanks!

Deeday

[IO540]

There are a few around here who appear suitably connected but they tend to be cagey because the AAIB would not approve of information on investigations leaking out.

[possel]

I've never worked for the AAIB but I applied once! I also knew a couple of people who worked there.

Extensive experience means just that, I think you will find. I would guess that degree plus ten years hands-on is roughly what they are aiming at. I did 16 years in the RAF as an engineer officer and had experience of accident investigation - that seemed to be the sort of thing that put me in the frame, but without success.

I think you will find that the jobs they do advertise (on Capita RAS) are heavily oversubscribed and so they are less likely to take someone who has little experience (like any other job).

[Mark 1]

They have two basic types of accident inspectors IIRC; engineering and operational.
The operations inspectors are generally required to have or have had an ATPL, often retired senior airline captains. The engineering inspectors usually come from an aircraft engineering background.

I applied a few years ago when there were over 500 applications for 3 vacancies, so getting shortlisted seemed quite an achievement.

Starting salaries were around £50-60K then.

[IO540]

One advert I saw said you need to have a valid ATPL, and that they will pay you to keep it valid.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've never worked for AAIB, but have worked alongside them on a large number of occasions (and been written about by them once) and I hope that they won't mind me saying a few things about my perception of the working environment. (I hope not anyhow, since I'm quite certain that they know who I am!)

AAIB is a small but quite well resourced organisation based on the edge of Farnborough airfield. They are part of the Department for Transport, and independent of the CAA. Their role is to investigate accidents and to make recommendations which should prevent future accidents.

The majority of AAIB's staff are termed "Inspectors of Air Accidents" - with a loose hierarchy within that headed by the "Chief Inspector of Air Accidents" who reports to a cabinet minister - giving him the necessary clout and authority.

The Inspectors are in two branches: ops (operations = Pilots), and engineering. There seem to be about twice as many Engineers as Pilots although in general most of the Engineers fly at-least at PPL level, and most of the Pilots seem to have a pretty damned good grasp of Engineering.

The Ops Inspectors are generally ex-airlines, and usually maintain currency on some appropriate large type via an airline-AAIB arrangement.

The Engineering Inspectors come from a wide variety of professional backgrounds, although from what I've seen the standard "new boy" is probably CEng + 5-20 years post qualification experience. There is a tendency to prefer, I think, aeronautical engineers with a fair bit of experience with complex aircraft systems - although that could be design/operations/civil/military. I believe that the branch pays for a certain amount of flying for the Engineers, to keep them current.

I've no doubt that the branch's senior management have a continuous strategy on the profile of the branch's engineers and pilots - so, for example, if they currently lack somebody with experience of helicopter systems, or EFIS analysis - then the next recruiting round will give some preference to people with that knowledge. This does mean that, not knowing what thinking is going on at the top, there'll be a degree of luck about any application.

On the other hand, it's clear that there's a profile preferred at AAIB - good breadth of knowledge, excellent interpersonal and reporting skills are almost certainly top of the list.

There are also a few other specialists there - in particular engineers who do ADR analysis, and technicians who look after the in-house facilities.

Another thing I notice is that very rarely have I ever met anybody who *used to* work for AAIB, unless they left at retirement age. It does seem to be a job which people enjoy very much, despite the obviously rather unhappy subject matter. Historically, their job adverts also do offer very competitive salaries - at-least for the Engineers (around the £50-£60k mark as Mark1 said). I've certainly found that AAIB inspectors who I've worked with have always been extremely able and pleasant professionals who I've never failed to learn from and enjoyed working with.

Various of the branch also fairly regularly give public talks, particularly to RAeS branches, on the work of the branch - it might be worth attending one of those.

G

[Mariner9]

There are a few UK based consultancy companies that investigate accidents and incidents on behalf of insurance companies or lawyers (where litigation is involved). Typically, their investigation is at least as thorough as that of the AAIB.

Might be worth googling for them and see if any trainee investigator positions are available.

M9 (Works in the same job but in the Oil/Marine sector though we do get involved in Jet A-1 research :oh:)

[Dan Dare]

I once worked with one of the "young" ops inspectors, who must have been in his late 30s when AAIB took him. His CV included a (presumably engineering) degree, flying instructor, nats ATCO, single pilot IFR, orange passenger jets etc. Quite how the rest of us are supposed to get a look in I don't know :ouch:

[Deeday]

Thank you all for your replies, very interesting.
500 applicants for 3 vacancies? That's tough indeed. I'm considering it as a career goal in the long term, anyway. I know that one day I will have a few chances to be at least short-listed, if the opportunity arises, but right now I've only got four years of professional experience (and I also enjoy my current job, fortunately).

Good point, M9, about private consultancy firms. I've googled RTI Forensics, for example. Securing a job there would probably pave the way for a post in the AAIB, although I suppose that the 'ethos' of such companies is quite different from the AAIB's one (I'd say that they are compensation-driven instead of knowledge- and safety-, and when the big money is involved, I start getting uncomfortable).

Deeday

[IO540]

I've googled RTI Forensics, for example. Securing a job there would probably pave the way for a post in the AAIB, although I suppose that the 'ethos' of such companies is quite different from the AAIB's one (I'd say that they are compensation-driven instead of knowledge- and safety-, and when the big money is involved, I start getting uncomfortable).I doubt the comparison is quite as straightforward.

As someone already posted here some days ago, the AAIB has to liase with lawyers and insurers for the families of the dead, etc, and the final report comes out only when nobody objects to it. So there must be all kinds of commercial pressures. Which is not to say they modify any of the facts under pressure - no forensic service should do that - but a lot of speculative stuff is bound to get modified or deleted. And a lot of accident reports - especially in GA; no CVR or FDR - are largely speculative..... pick any 10 AAIB reports on all-fatal GA crashes and at least half of them will not reveal the definite cause. They just cannot tell.

The AAIB went through a phase, a few years ago, of picking up the use of foreign licenses and making less than complimentary comments on them. This was totally uncalled for. It seems to have stopped but either somebody in there had an axe to grind (plenty of those about among the ex airline aviation elite, who tend to have certain views on the business jet community etc) or they came under pressure from the authorities (the CAA or the DfT) to make a political point or two.

[BackPacker]

Never having been involved with the AAIB or its Dutch equivalent (fortunately; knock on wood) my guess would be that the most valuable person to the AAIB would be a project manager with expertise in investigations (maybe ex-police), a reasonable grasp of aviation (but not necessarily extended experience in one branch while neglecting the other branches) but most of all the expertise of working in a highly politicized environment, where lots of stakeholders will want the report to sway a certain way.

As far as specific aviation expertise is concerned (ops or engineering), well, you can always hire these experts as and when required. Although it helps if the AAIB has reasonably experienced people within their own ranks to backstop the outside experts, and call bullsh*t when they see it.

But above all, you need to be fiercely independent. No axes to grind, no favors to return. In that respect a background in aviation may actually be a hindrance.

One other problem I see with the AAIB sourcing people from the aviation community, now that I think about it, is that a lot of jobs within aviation are task-oriented. For a mechanic, as soon as the plane leave the hangar and the paperwork is done, the job is finished. For a pilot, as soon as the shutdown checklist is completed, the job is finished. Not a lot of people in aviation who have long-term (months) projects, and it's even rarer to take your work home. AAIB investigations sometimes take a year or longer and may become very emotional at times. They also involve lots of paperwork that all needs to be read, analyzed, summarized, digested, valued and incorporated into a final report. And an AAIB employee might be involved in half a dozen, maybe more, of these investigations simultaneously. It's a completely different mindset.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are a few UK based consultancy companies that investigate accidents and incidents on behalf of insurance companies or lawyers (where litigation is involved). Typically, their investigation is at least as thorough as that of the AAIB.

Might be worth googling for them and see if any trainee investigator positions are available.



In my experience, such consultancy based investigations are usually a lot more directed towards specific questions than AAIB's work, and mostly vacancies are only for people with considerable relevant industry experience. A court or insurance company is primarily interested in liaility, rather than prevention or deep understanding of the underlying factors. That said, I have a lot of time for the phorensic reporting approach, which is remarkably close to modern academic writing and I enjoy being asked to write in it when I do this sort of work occasionally (if not the half-filing cabinet of evidence that a typical case can easily accumulate!).

G

[Cusco]

Dan Dare wrote

I once worked with one of the "young" ops inspectors, who must have been in his late 30s when AAIB took him. His CV included a (presumably engineering) degree, flying instructor, nats ATCO, single pilot IFR, orange passenger jets etc. Quite how the rest of us are supposed to get a look in I don't know

These chaps are at the pinnacle of their profession:

It's not therefore surprising that they have shed loads of experience before being appointed:

After all you wouldn't expect your heart transplant to be carried out by a rookie two years out of medical school, would you?

The way 'to get a look in' is to emulate the career paths of some of the present incumbents, see when AAIB are recruiting and see if they're taking suitably experienced trainees.

Cusco

[possel]

No, backpacker:

"my guess would be that the most valuable person to the AAIB would be a project manager with expertise in investigations (maybe ex-police), a reasonable grasp of aviation (but not necessarily extended experience in one branch while neglecting the other branches) ..."

The AAIB does not want a "reasonable grasp of aviation", it wants experts!

[BackPacker]

The AAIB does not want a "reasonable grasp of aviation", it wants experts!

That's what I said. But they also require some people with a skill set that's not commonly found in aviation, where the vast majority of jobs are task-oriented.

[minty88]

Im in a simualr situation however have not got nowhere near your experinance yet. I have made contact with the AAIB and have secured myself a 6 week summer placement with them. Surley somthing like this will help you also get your foot in the door. All i did was send them my CV and a coverning letter i understand that your already in a job you like but if this is your dream then give it try!