Pension Question

[Miffed]

Good evening all. I am in a bit of a pickle at the moment. I have been accused of fraud. I have been accused of embezzling funds from my company that I own outside of my primary RAF job. My Solicitor reckons I will go to prison and will be kicked out of the RAF. Now my question is; I have completed 26 years as a Commissioned Officer so if I go to Prison will I still have rights to my Gratuity and Pension? I did earn them after all.
Anybody else been in this position?

[spheroid]

I suppose that in its broadest sense, Fraud is the deliberate act of deceiving somebody with the aim of harming or damaging them....



If you are guilty of fraud, Do you think you deserve your pension?

[Pontius Navigator]

Miffed, I presume you have an able solicitor who is a good judge of character, after all you chose him.

Still to the nub of your question.

The MTO at RAF Wittering, many moons ago, was convicted of embezzlement. he had been claiming disturbance allowance on postings but never actually moved from his own home.

He was cashiered but to everyone's surprise got his pension and gratuity. I suppose, but I don't know, that they got back what he had claimed from that gratuity.

In your case I suspect you may be awarded a pension but equally you may have to petition the AFB.

[Biggus]

If you trawl through all the military admin docs, JSPs, etc, there is one on court martial punishments. I believe, and this is just working from memory, that a court martial can't take away your pension rights (presumably on the basis you earned them before you became a "bad boy").

However, as I said, that is from memory, I suggest you check the documentation before you allow yourself a warm fuzzy feeling!

[Lurking123]

I can't see how they can stop your pension. They may well hit you with something similar to the 8%ish deduction applied if you PVR and faff around with resettlement commutation values, but it is your money. Of course, this could be disadvantageous as the courts may decide that your pension is fair game for recovery of any money that they decide you may have embezzled.

[spheroid]

I once knew a Warrant Officer who committed an offence.... He wasn't captured until he had left the mob....however, he was brought back....charged....guilty.....busted to Leading..... pension dropped from WO down to Leader

[Pontius Navigator]

rephrasing Spheroids message, you can expect to have a very hot spotlight shone on you.

[spheroid]

What alarms me most is this...........


I have completed 26 years as a Commissioned Officer


will I still have rights to my Gratuity and Pension? I did earn them after all


No you didn't. You didn't earn your pension at all. Do you not understand what the "commission" is....? Have you ever read your commission.... Where in your commission does it state that as a commissioned Officer you have the privilege to thieve, steal and put your sticky mits into someone else’s pocket?

No, I'm sorry but you have forfeited your rights to a pension.

[Lyneham Lad]

...my company that I own outside of my primary RAF job.

I was not aware that a serving Officer could own/run a civilian business. Or have things changed since my time? Also, would not a serving Officer sentenced to jail be cashiered and therefore lose pension rights?

[Miffed]

The important bit in my opening post was about the fact that the company has nothing to do with the RAF. The many years that I have served in the RAF include many overseas detachments to both Herrick and Telic, so yes I do believe I deserve the money.

put your sticky mits into someone else’s pocket?

Strictly speaking it is my pocket that I have been accused of putting my mits in. It is my company after all. Can I also draw your attention to this article.

Concern over Army expenses fraud - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20081123/tuk-concern-over-army-expenses-fraud-6323e80.html)

You see everybody is at it.;)

[EdSett100]

Many years ago, while perusing QRs about pension regs, I came across an interesting regulation about pension forfeiture. I seem to recall that only an act of treason will lead to forfeiture of a pension.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Remember the GAI pilot thread..............................:rolleyes:

[EdSett100]

Yes, I was struck by the simplicity of it.

(edited to point out that I was replying to Nostrinian)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Don't you just hate when your attempt at subtlety just sails over the some folks heads :p

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Excuse me being rude and grumpy but have a look at this

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/351266-gays-raf.html

I suspect this Pension/Question thread is simply another wind up but I am happy to be proved wrong :ok:

[NUFC1892]

I attended an excellent briefing yesterday from the Forces Pension Society, I am sure they will be able to give you some good advice. Have a look on www.forpen.co.uk (http://www.forpen.co.uk) or you can email them at [email protected]. It may cost you £23.00 to join but it may be the best £23.00 you have ever spent; other Ppruners may also be interested in having a look at the website.

Note:

Other Pension Advisers are available:O

[serf]

Ask your brief how long you will get, quickly apply for a career break, go away on your 'career break' and rejoin!

[Pontius Navigator]

Go on, tell us what they said you did. You know you want to.

When is the event?

[Wader2]

EdSett is more or less right in that treason is the most likely reason for loss of pension.

QR 3140 refers.

However QR 3140 (1) (b) also states;

Service personnel or former Service personnel are convicted of an offence committed in connection with their service as a member of the Armed Forces, including any of the offences listed below, and the Secretary of State for Defence considers that the offence to have been gravely injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the state.

The list of 6 items refers to enemy, war, geneva convention etc but the catch is that (1)(b) says that the offence can include these offences not that only these offences would apply.

The SoS might argue that bringing the RAF into disrupt would be gravely injurious etc. It would thus be up to you and your brief to argue that that the interpretation was wrong. You can be quite sure that this would absorb most of your gratuity if you won and added to your ealier legal bills if you lost.

Best you can do is bend over and smile.

[Pontius Navigator]

embezzlement is, more generically, an act of deceitfully secreting assets by one or more persons that have been entrusted with such assets. The person(s) entrusted with such assets may or may not have an ownership stake in such assets.

The case I cited was of claiming disturbance allowance when such allowance was inappropriate - no disturbance had taken place.

[strontium.dog74]

Interesting thread, hope it works out for you miffed. Got to love some of the self righteous comments though!

[Al R]

I wonder how the OP turned out. Anyway, could there be a change in pension entitlement? If it affects one sector, I assume it'll enter others as well. It's just a pity that any cause revolving around morality has to involve the shameless Keith Vaz.

BBC News - 'Cut police pensions' to punish misconduct, MPs say (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23120455)

I can't see plod standing for this, is it just tub thumping by those bastions of virtue - our wonderful MPs? Especially as the pension is being decimated and that it is a contributory one anyway.

[Ken Scott]

Loss of pension & gratuity could amount to a 'fine' of hundreds of thousands of pounds which would seem to me to be disproportionate to the original crime in most cases.

I do recall the case of a WO who was supposed to have put in some fraudulent travel claims for his resettlement who allegedly lost his pension.

[Red Line Entry]

As Miffed never posted again, perhaps he found himself in a location without internet access?:}

[Melchett01]

What - Marham?

Given the original date of this thread, a 3-5 stretch there would probably have grounds for appeal!

[Wander00]

So was "Miffed" flying a kite? He and his limited company are different entities. So it is possible for him to steal from "his" company. However, unless he has been defrauding HMRC and others along the way, I am surprised that the case is going as far as he suggests.

[The Old Fat One]

^^+1

Just stumbled over this thread...didn't see it at the time. I suggest OP was trolling (there was a lot of this sort of thing on the military forum a while back) as there are some gaping anomalies in his story. Unless the dude was running a proper full on company - which don't leave much change out of 60 hours a week - a slap on the wrist from HMRC is all you're getting from trousering a bit of petty cash.

I do recall the case of a WO who was supposed to have put in some fraudulent travel claims for his resettlement who allegedly lost his pension.

Scuttlebutt. Loss of pension is clearly laid out in the appropriate APs (and always has been). Something like that you do your time then get discharged, which is treated the same as a PVR (approx 10% reduction). You need to do something pretty damn serious to lose your pension completely. Nor is it within the remit of the RAF/MOD to make arbitrary decisions, as they would be turned over on appeal in an eyeblink. All military punishments are tested against the appropriate civvy "tariff".