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View Full Version : A couple of FPL questions


ASCOT Ops Retd
23rd Nov 2008, 17:21
In no particular order:

1. Does anybody know how much an operator is charged for filing a FPL. I mean by Eurocontrol etc, as opposed to per/FPL on different planning software.

2. Are operators obliged to follow airways? For example, in my area radar days we occasionally had jets come out of MAN, heading east, where they would turn right 'cross country' through the big triangular gap in the airways and join controlled airspace somewhere south of G1. We were also kept fairly busy with all sorts of a/c criss-crossing this chunk of airspace - hence the need for ATC - but why don't, say LBA departures just cross this gap and save fuel? (I'll add that I was doing area radar around 1991, before Europe seized control).

3. Does submission of a FPL mean I have to use Eurocontrol's airways structure? Obviously if I do use airways I have to go the right way at the right height, but can I (perhaps stupidly) opt out and ask for a radar service from one radar unit to another?

eg. If I want to go Oxford to Bournemouth there are no airways. The pilot of a trip asked me to file a FPL, not least to makes sure he was 'in the system' on a dark and windy night, on the edge of everyone's opening hours. I filed DCT SAM, only to have Eurocontrol amend this to DCT CPT DCT. What have they achieved, apart from increasing my burn?

plans123
26th Nov 2008, 02:34
Want to give me a ring in work tomorrow night mate (weds 26th)??

I think I can help you and give you some pointers.

ASCOT Ops Retd
26th Nov 2008, 08:58
Hi buddy - didn't know you were back. I'm not well disposed to speak tonight - can we do it another time or by e-mail? I could do with speaking to you at some point anyway - am trying to convince my new lot that Jetplan is a good investment, but still have lots of Qs about peripheral stuff.

ASCOT Ops Retd
26th Nov 2008, 11:43
Next question to the open forum:

What do Jetplan/Jetplanner users do for MAN/ACK etc messages from Eurocontrol, esp. if they don't have AFTN or SITA?

Lauderdale
26th Nov 2008, 13:00
What type of operation do you run Ascot? (tails/nr of sectors/type etc)

Feel free to pvt msg me.

ASCOT Ops Retd
26th Nov 2008, 16:19
Lauderdale - please see PMs

plans123
26th Nov 2008, 22:15
If you use JetPlanner, you will have an account for JetPlan.com that will provide Ack's etc.

This will also allow you transmit via ARINC/SITA/AFTN/Fax/Email. But as ever with Jepp products, nothing is free.

Best you give me a ring mate, or better still.... come up and see me sometime... (but not in that sort of sense)

ASCOT Ops Retd
27th Nov 2008, 07:16
PM me with yr number will you mate? Could pop see you Mon/Tue next week if you're around, but needs to be soon as, tragically, I need to hand my ID back soon! [insert sarcastic crying symbol]...

Andyops
27th Nov 2008, 08:11
Ascot - Have sent you a PM

ASCOT Ops Retd
27th Nov 2008, 11:41
Right back at ya Andy - in yr PMs. Didn't realise you were 45! :eek:

plans123
27th Nov 2008, 17:13
Mon/Tues next week will be tip top for me mate, check yr PM for numbers. I'll even make the brews. :eek:

As for Andy being 45, he looks a lot older than he is!!! :}

ASCOT Ops Retd
27th Nov 2008, 17:51
Cool - I'll call you sometime Monday and see what suits. It'll be quite quaint seeing all you air force types again, in your smart little uniforms :}

plans123
28th Nov 2008, 07:20
bugger off!!!

WindSwept
8th Dec 2008, 10:40
I can hazard a guess at a few answers.

1. Certinally in terms of ad-hoc flights we file flight plans all the time for pilots through are AFTN and this costs them nothing. Although i suppose they are paying us for our air traffic control service. However these ad-hoc flights are not being billed by us anyway.

2. Operators are not obliged to follow airways by any legal boundry that im aware of. Obviously the operators would prefer their pilots to stay in nice safe CAS rather than dropping out into bandit country so to speak to know a few minutes off the flight time.

3. If your filing IFR on your flight plan your tied to using the correct routings. The systems are automatic most of the time. If you file IFR on a route you WANT to take but Eurocontrol say that route isn't a recognised routing from ABC-XYZ then they will give you the correct routing and like it or lump it. If everyone did everything they want it would be manic so its regulated. If they don't like the routing they will just give you the one they do like. This applies to your Oxford to Bournemouth flight.

Your other options are to file Y/Z on the plan and go IFR to VFR of vice versa but this is dangerous, if you are on route and meet some weather and say eek i wana stay IFR in these lovely airways they will most of the time chuck you out at your intended VFR point. So if i were you id leave this one alone.

You can always file IFR and change en-route so get your airways clearance go up fly it for however long you want then say i wana drop out of CAS and take up a radar service from Farnborough or whatever...

We 'organise' IFR cross-country hops for flights all the time. Alot of our flights want to reposition from us to east mids or like with the Crossair's they like to go off to the west through military to Ireland. They arn't very easy to organise the first time but once the units have seen the same flight doing the same thing an unwritten procedure falls into place. So if your doing a regular hop from Oxford to Bournemouth, phone the relevant units en-route and see if you can get them to co-ordinate a route for you, more time involved but once you've done it it becomes sort of standard.

plans123
8th Dec 2008, 16:07
Mmmmm - I'm not too sure about one or two of your answers there windswept...

Firstly, some operators need CAS to ensure that their ac are correctly insured...

Secondly, there are gaps now in the LARS, so would it be ideal to plan on unit to unit? Last thing you need is flying in an area of reduced radar coverage from below/side because you're operating on the limits of someones radar cover and something happens. see answer above.

Thirdly, You're comment about Euro-Control. personally, I take pride in making sure ALL my routes CFMU compliant, rather than just chuck any old rubbish into the system and make it someone else's problem...... PPPPPP (and not very professional either). Last thing you need to be doing is peeing off Brussels/Paris just because you're too bone idle to correctly route plan. I've seen it before, a short notice trip, chuck something into the system , hoping they'll give you an ACK and you get a REJ. Who's got egg on their face now?

ASCOT Ops Retd
9th Dec 2008, 07:28
Tks Windswept & plans,

Interesting answers to all my questions, and it does still seem you have a choice between stringent Eurocontrol or hit and miss cross-country.

btw plans, on a completely different subject, you've got Jetplanner Dispatch set-up on 'basic' mode, so you won't get ACKs and MANs (because you have AFTN). It can do it though.

plans123
9th Dec 2008, 10:17
Cheers mate, I'll have a look when I'm back in next week and get that sorted!!! :ok:

ASCOT Ops Retd
9th Dec 2008, 15:08
To be honest, I'm not sure you need it, as you've got AFTN as a primary and SITA as a back-up. It would save you having to walk the 1.44 ft to the AFTN printer though...:rolleyes:

p.s. it's Jeppy too, so it probably costs more...

plans123
9th Dec 2008, 17:17
Andyops will be after you for that one!! prepare for his PM! :eek::}:ok:

Andyops
10th Dec 2008, 13:26
No comment from me !! :ok:

plans123
10th Dec 2008, 15:12
Now there's something new! ;)