A question for you NVFR pilots

I have done a fair bit of NVFR, almost all of which has been in the USA. Over there, you just get in and go and its treated identically to a standard VFR flight.

I was recently caught out when filing a VFR flight plan when attempting to fly back from the channel isles. I completed the flight plan as a standard VFR flight. After submitting the flight plan, i promptly received a phone call telling me to re-submit it as an IFR flight plan with a special request for an SVFR departure.

I found this very confusing, not having done much NVFR flying in the UK, and it raised a whole load of questions for me... I am hoping that someone out there might be able to shed some light on the matter...

1) As a non-IR pilot, am I even allowed to file an IFR flight plan?

2) Do I always need to file an IFR flight plan when departing from airfields in the UK (towered and non-towered)

3) What are the implications of filing an IFR flight plan in terms of control of the flight. I.e. after leaving the airfileld's controlled airspace, do I resume my own navigation (i.e. after formally receiving the RT "resume own navigation" from the tower), or am I required to be talking to someone as per an IFR flight (i.e. is some-one vectoring me to my destination)

4) Do I need to file the flight plan with all my flight levels, turning points, reporting points etc?

5) Are there on-line examples of IFR flight plans for NVFR flights?

6) Are the answers to all the above questions the same for flights into and around Europe?

Its probably inexperience with NVFR flying this side of the pond, but I would rather ask the questions now than be ill-prepared for a flight.

Thanks!!

All Night flying has to be IFR in the UK.

Anyone can file an IFR flight plan.

You don't have have an IR or IMCR to fly IFR in VMC

You don't HAVE to file a FP on any flight within the UK, though MAY file one for any flight, from any airfield.

Answers to te other questions will be along in amoment - I've already said too much.

;)

Just to add that this IFR-at-night-without-an-IR thing is totally unique to the UK. In the rest of Europe, NVFR is just that. It requires the NVFR rating, VMC conditions and, depending on the country, a flight plan might be required.

International night flight to/from the UK is a flight plan nightmare as it requires a change from IFR to VFR rules as you cross the border.

Oh, and the Netherlands bans NVFR altogether. At night, you can only file and fly IFR, which requires an IFR-capable plane and an IR.

You don't have have an IR or IMCR to fly IFR in VMC

Quite true if you hold a UK Licence but if its a UK JAA Licence then its not true:
ANO Schedule 8 Section 2 says:Section 2 – JAR–FCL Licences
(2) The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1. and JAR-FCL 1.175 says:
JAR–FCL 1.175 Circumstances in which
an IR(A) is required
(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall
not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a
pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating
(IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.

There is however a get out clause:
(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, This allows you to file IFR so from the Chanel Isles to the UK submit your flight plan IFR and insert in Item 18 Remarks, must remain in sight of the surface. That tells ATC you cannot fly in IMC. You must of course have a night qualification.

The broad answer to your question has been given, but for the record answers on each point. All answers apply only to flight within the UK(and CI) -


1) As a non-IR pilot, am I even allowed to file an IFR flight plan?

Yes you are, but you wouldn't do anything different day or night (i.e. if you wouldn't file one during the day for VFR then no need at night)


2) Do I always need to file an IFR flight plan when departing from airfields in the UK (towered and non-towered)
You generally are only required to file a flight plan if crossing an international FIR.


3) What are the implications of filing an IFR flight plan in terms of control of the flight. I.e. after leaving the airfield's controlled airspace, do I resume my own navigation (i.e. after formally receiving the RT "resume own navigation" from the tower), or am I required to be talking to someone as per an IFR flight (i.e. is some-one vectoring me to my destination)

If your flight plan is clearly OCAS (as it must be without an IR, except for the SVFR part in and out of any control zones) or you put a clue in the remarks (like must remain in sight of surface) it will feel just like a VFR flight (no SIDs/STARs, direct to RNAV points, vectors, etc.) From a pilot perspective the 'night as IFR UK style' type flying has minimal significant operational differences from VFR (quadrantials mandatory above TA vs recommended, and no access to Class D control areas - as compared to zones).

4) Do I need to file the flight plan with all my flight levels, turning points, reporting points etc?

File it like a VFR plan except tick I,Z,Y vs V, give a clue in the remarks and an altitude vs VFR.


5) Are there on-line examples of IFR flight plans for NVFR flights?

Don't know

6) Are the answers to all the above questions the same for flights into and around Europe?

Absolutely not. Everywhere else that says night flight must be conducted under IFR mean under real IFR (i.e. with an IFR clearance, an IR rating, flying with distinctly different procedures than VFR). Different countries also have specific night VFR rules which may have training requirements, sign off requirements, or higher visibility requirements.

It's never simple!!!

"or you put a clue in the remarks (like must remain in sight of surface)"

never seen that written on any FPL in nearly 20 years. Also, irrespective of any info regarding what ratings a pilot may or may not hold, our instruction is not to accept a VFR FPL for submission for a flight within the UK once official 'night' is reached (except SVFR).

Had this scenario just the other night - helicopter, EGLL to Ashford in Kent at 8pm. Its dark, so a request to book out SVFR was refused, and the pilot was asked to file a FPL (SVFR+IFR or IFR all the way). Heard nothing more until I went upstairs only to see the helicopter lift off with a SVFR clearance 'to leave the Control Zone'.

So, from a flight planning POV, its as confusing as it is for the pilots. And as for pilots declaring to us that they have Military Night Ratings, NV etc etc.....

Out of curiosity, If one is going at night from Southampton to Jersey and files IFR N175 F100 DCT KATHY DCT ORTAC DCT what tells you not to climb the flight into the Southampton control area?

IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues.

"IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues."

agreed. I've often wondered as to how/why flights like the one I commented on above actually get the go-ahead when the Rules state that VFR at night is not allowed. Who gives the OK, and whose ars* would get kicked if anything happened to the flight after it had left 'the Control Zone' ? (At least it won't be mine - I hope!)

Personally, I'd like an explanation as to why the advice/info that I/we have dispensed to the operator is 'overridden' - where's a Thames/SVFR Controller when you need one??

agreed. I've often wondered as to how/why flights like the one I commented on above actually get the go-ahead when the Rules state that VFR at night is not allowed. Who gives the OK, and whose ars* would get kicked if anything happened to the flight after it had left 'the Control Zone' ? The flight that you mentioned gets the go ahead because the rules say it's OK. You may agree or disagree with the rules - but the rules is the rules. The reason it's OK is because the rules say the aircraft can't fly VFR, and it's not flying VFR - by definition, it's flying under SVFR.

And after it leaves the zone I presume it would fly IFR whilst in class G airspace. What do you have in mind going wrong with that?

pelagic, I don't know what your background is but at this level flight rules are fairly straightforward. It sounds like there should be plenty of people you could call on to run through the way it works.

"by definition, it's flying under SVFR"

erm, I thought I'd said that.

Our instructions state that, when leaving LL at night, you can fly SVFR within the Zone. If you intend to fly beyond the Zone boundary, then its IFR at night. And from a flight planning perspective - ie when a pilot at LL calls the FBU to book out SVFR to a destination beyound the Zone boundary - for us, that means requesting the filing of an IFR flightplan for the portion of the journey outside the Zone.

I think thats 'fairly straightforward'

I think thats 'fairly straightforward'Fairly straightforward, maybe, but more importantly is it correct?

Its dark, so a request to book out SVFR was refused, and the pilot was asked to file a FPL (SVFR+IFR or IFR all the way).when a pilot at LL calls the FBU to book out SVFR to a destination beyound the Zone boundary - for us, that means requesting the filing of an IFR flightplan for the portion of the journey outside the Zone.The issue is perhaps why you believe the filing of a flight plan to be necessary at all for the portion of the journey outside the zone? And for the portion of the flight involving departure to the zone boundary, normal practice would require only an Abbreviated Flight Plan by telephone in accordance with AIP ENR 1.10. Appreciate LL might just have different rules, but it's difficult to see what 'its dark' has to do with those. In any event, the AIP EGLL 2.22 entry appears to suggests otherwise:

Pilots who wish to leave Heathrow on a Special VFR clearance should pass brief details of their flight to the Flight Briefing Unit, either in
person or by telephone 020-8750 2615, and not to ATC by RTF.

"IMHO the whole night IFR thing in the UK is bonkers, it seems designed to make everyone's life complicated and not to address any real safety issues."
No its a very simple way to to make people fly at a safe altitude and use a quadrantal level to reduce the likelihood of hitting the ground or another aircraft.

Unfortunately if you file IFR, ATC have no way of knowing that you are not qualified to fly in IMC, hence the suggestion of a Remark to advise them.

If you fly from a military airfield at night they may clear you VFR because they don't necessarily understand the ANO!

pelagic, what you appear to be saying is that the UK law says a pilot cannot fly VFR at night and so it is wrong that an aircraft departs the LL zone under a SVFR clearance. Have understood your point?

If so, what I am saying is that SVFR is not VFR - so the pilot is following the rule by not flying VFR at night. In the LL zone the rules say that an aircraft can request a SFR clearance - this is not the same as a VFR clearance - which means that it can fly without complying with all of the IFR. Still all OK because the rules permit it.

No its a very simple way to to make people fly at a safe altitude and use a quadrantal level to reduce the likelihood of hitting the ground or another aircraft.
Except for the fact that in the UK, for a PPL (who is VFR only, except allowed to fly 'IFR' at night) there is almost no operational difference from VFR. IFR in this case (more than 3km viz, clear of clouds and in sight of surface) doesn't have a minimum altitude requirement and doesn't require flight at quadrantals below the TA (I.e. where our intrepid PPL will in all likelihood fly and where all collisions happen - except for a few cases of IFR/IFR collision when under positive control), doesn't require following published routes (and in general trying will put you into a control area).

The only logic can be a perception that PPLs at night in a control area (as compared to a zone) are dangerous - and that contention is absurd.

The differences in national airspace rules will not be standardised when EASA part-FCL hits the streets, so it will be interesting to see how much Colognic Irritation from the €urocrats affects the PPL with Night Rating (no longer to be 'night qualification....').

Another reason why my Class 2 IR proposal submitted to part-FCL's FCL.008 group now includes the words:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Privileges:

1.0 To fly IMC/IFR in EC airspace where so permitted under national law.

1.1 To navigate the aircraft by sole reference to instruments under circumstances which require mandatory compliance with defined routes.

1.2 To fly instrument approach procedures for which pilots have logbook endorsements to instrument approach minima +200ft for precision approach and +250ft for non-precision approach.

The 'where so permitted under national law' is an important choice of words as it is identical to the agreement for medical declarations for their ridiculous sub-ICAO one-size-fits-no-one LPL proposals.

If so, what I am saying is that SVFR is not VFR - so the pilot is following the rule by not flying VFR at night. In the LL zone the rules say that an aircraft can request a SFR clearance - this is not the same as a VFR clearance - which means that it can fly without complying with all of the IFR. Still all OK because the rules permit i

The whole thing is absurd. To file IFR means to fly to instrument flight rules. To have no reasonable instrument training means you cannot fly to instrument flight rules.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

The night rating should be included in the IMCR as there are too many hazards to a totally non trained PPL flying in what is effectively IMC or flying to set levels required by IFR could infact put the aircraft in IMC.

There are some really silly regulations in aviation and this is one roll on an obtainable IR for PPLs and the safety such a rating could bring.

IMO it should be PPL then IMCR including night or having night as an addon to the IMCR not PPL then night then IMCR.

Pace

I have always thought that night flying should require an instrument qualification, because if done on a properly dark night it is flying in IMC in all but name, and requires full instrument skills.

But this all comes from ICAO, AFAIK. Rationally, IMHO, one would not allow night flight without an IR of some sort.

The whole thing is absurd. To file IFR means to fly to instrument flight rules. To have no reasonable instrument training means you cannot fly to instrument flight rules.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

While I respect the opinions that night flight should be conducted by Instrument Qualified pilots, the rules in general allow PPLs to have night ratings and to fly without instrument training. Countries like Ireland that disagree and impose a requirement to operate IFR at night are being more conservative than ICAO, but at least internally consistent. It is only the UK that takes the absurd/bonkers/... position that you must be IFR and then defines IFR and PPL privileges (in this context) in a way that makes IFR=VFR so removing any safety value of the requirement to operate IFR.

I was delighted to find this thread as I was suffering the same confusions as rmdr2 and hoped to get a confident reply from someone. I am a PPL of 7 years and have IMC and recently the night rating. Fortunately I think that is the correct order to acquire the qualifications but unfortunately I am now more confused about how to file a FP than I was before.

I am trying to plan a treat at the end of Jan 09 and want to spend the day in France and then fly back to Jersey at night. Assuming that the conditions are VFR but, of course it will be at night, can anyone give me a clear answer on what I should put on the FP? Please, I don't need and patronising or derogatory comments such as "rules are rules" from Spitoon - we all have to learn at some time.

wrinklybird

To join in the debate, the issue with your proposal is the French sector. The CIs sector has already been dealt with in the above.

I believe it is still the case that France permits night VFR without an IR, but with a night rating. However in certain areas there are defined corridors in which you must conduct the flight at night which are set out on the SIA charts and described in the Complément aux cartes aéronautiques.

Obviously you are not permitted to enter the airways including those that are not class A without an IR.

Well, to be honest, with those kinds of flightplans, which move from VFR to IFR, but where VFR and IFR means different things across a FIR boundary (particularly NVFR which is IFR in the UK), I would just phone up my favourite flight briefing center and tell them what I want. As long as there's something in the system, accepted by the system you should generally be alright. Or, you have someone else to blame it on.

You'll probably find that if you ask this specific question (a NVFR flight in the French FIR, becoming an IFR flight in the UK FIR, but OCAS) to five different people, you'll get six different answers. Even if those people are professionals who do this on a daily basis.

Can you even legally get to Jersey at night without an IR? AFAIK Jersey sits in class A airspace for which you get an SVFR clearance. But can you get that at night?

Can you even legally get to Jersey at night without an IR? AFAIK Jersey sits in class A airspace for which you get an SVFR clearance. But can you get that at night?You can still get SVFR in a Zone (just like you would with the IMC)

To the question.

Prepare a flight-plan just the same as you would for a day VFR flight

then,

1 - Replace the 'V' in flight rules with a 'Z' (this says you will VFR then IFR)
2 - In the route section just after the way-point for FIR boundary point add 'IFR'.

You now have a flight plan you can fly (VFR) in France and the French and Jersey controllers are happy because you have specified you will fly IFR from the Jersey zone boundary.

Backpacker

That aspect is well covered.

Just enter Z in box 8 and indicate in box 15 where the rules will change. (You can do it the other way around if needs be).

You can thus simply depart VFR and when you get back to Blighty change to IFR.

I have always felt that the UK night rating is a nonsense and putting the cart before the horse.

.. .. .. and what evidence do you have for all these accidents to night VFR pilots? Plenty do night ratings without an IMC or IR and there are very few problems.

We do seem to have become a society obsessed with creating rules to prevent people doing certain things rather than assessing whether the EVIDENCE suggests we require those rules in the first place. :)

Pace - I appreciate you are back on your hobby horse, much as am I, but I do think you have to demonstrate why certain things may not be a good idea. Rather like the IMC rating even if there have been a couple of accidents involving pilots with the rating that does not represent a case in itself that the evidence is the rating is unsafe. Things that have worked fine for the last forty odd years are probably just fine - if it airt broke, why you want to fix it??

wrinklybird

I would file a Z flight plan (i.e. start VFR, then IFR) and specify the changeover point as the FIR boundary, possibly putting SVFR in the remarks section too.

Someone will be along in a second to shoot me down in flames.....

CAP 694 requires "I" to be entered where the flight will be conducted under SVFR with the point of change and flight rules indicated in box 15.

As far as I was aware France does not "recognise" IFR in VMC - in other words to be IFR in France regardless of the met. conditions the Commander must hold an IR. Consequently presumably a flight at night by a pilot without an IR can only be SVFR as can a flight within the CICZ so also presumably a flight departing after dark in France for the CIs would need to file "I" for the whole sector, indicating in box 15 that the flight will be conducted under SVFR.

Fuji, don't want to be controversial here, but genuinely interested - I think your last post is wrong. 'I' stands for 'IFR' under ICAO rules and this is clearly not the case here if departing France at night. While I don't know about any obscure French rules, in my understanding this would simply be a VFR flight conducted at night. Nothing to do with SVFR. IMHO it's a 'Z' flight plan (both our earlier posts crossed each other).

I know Fuji and 172 know this stuff so with

As far as I was aware France does not "recognise" IFR in VMC - in other words to be IFR in France regardless of the met. conditions the Commander must hold an IR

we may have wires crossed, but this statement is true everywhere in the world except - AFAIK - the UK where IFR in VMC is possible on a plain PPL.

The other "problem" with filing an IFR flight plan is that, strictly speaking, it is supposed to be sent to Eurocontrol (IFPS), and IFPS will spit it out if the route is not a valid airway route - for any of 10,000 different reasons.

It so happens that IFPS tends (nowadays) to not challenge IFR flight plans which lie entirely outside CAS, but it will still chuck them out for all sorts of reasons... like you are going to / from an airport which has no instrument approaches (in some countries).

So if I was going VFR (basically, a plain PPL) I would avoid filing IFR flight plans.

172

Yes, I agree, and of course CAP 694 only applies to the UK.

I have never filed night IFR out of France other than as IFR traffic but I recall some one on here a while back saying their night VFR flight plan out of France was rejected on the basis they could not file night VFR. Hence the conundrum.

Either the French will accept V in Box 8, with boxed 15 noted to indicate SVFR is required, or it is I in box 8 with the same note in box 15 on the basis that I will prevent the plan being rejected - the point of course being that box 8 in itself does not cater for SVFR.

IO540

.. .. .. and yes, I also agree, I in box 8 might cause you a few other problems as well, although in the case of L2K at least you would make the FIR before the airway unless you had something very hot :).

Well I am still not sure of the correct answer but it is an intriguing question so I 'phoned my mate in the Tower in Lille. After a few 'phone calls I am not certain he knew the answer. He was kind enough to say he had never been asked before! Anyway the view appeared to be box 8 should record "I" and box 15 SVFR. From his point of view no problem with a SVFR departure subject as always to traffic and met conditions being better than SVFR minima.

I am still not sure it is the right answer (someone will be along to correct me no doubt) but I suppose it doesnt really matter, if it should be V and you file I with the note in box 15 they will soon change it!

I will have a read of the French AIP when I have a moment.

Someone must have tried it out of L2K recently?

You need to file it like this -

-(FPL-GBLAG-ZG
-1BE36/L-S/S
-LFPN1000
-N0170F100 DCT LUSIT IFR DCT
-EGJJ0110
-RMK/IFPS RTE AMDT ACPT DOF/090113
-E/0619 P/1
)

Results
NO ERRORS


----------
A night VFR flightplan from France to the UK (inc. CI) will be rejected because the French know that VFR isn't allowed in the UK - nothing to do with France.

A PPL without an IR (or with only an IMC) can not legally file and fly IFR outside the UK.

Hmmm, Fuji, this sort of makes sense, as you are conducting the flight under VFR - it's only the UK regs bit that possibly throw a spanner in the works.

IO, out of interest, do you happen to know if VFR FPLs filed via Homebriefing go to Eurocontrol?

Lots of crossed posts here today ;)

So, basically, we are back to the Z FPL, with a change to IFR at the FIR boundary, correct?

So, basically, we are back to the Z FPL, with a change to IFR at the FIR boundary, correct?

That would indeed be correct for a night flight from the French mainland to the UK mainland.

What I still don't quite understand if this is also applicable for a night flight to Jersey, and whether this is legal for someone with just an NQ or IMC, but not an IR.

Or, in other words, does a NSVFR (Night Special VFR) clearance exist in the UK? Because if you can't fly SVFR at night within UK airspace (just as you cannot fly VFR at night within UK airspace) you've got to fly IFR. But this is class A airspace where you're not allowed to fly IFR unless you hold an IR.

Where do you get the 'No Night SVFR in the UK' from??

This is what happens with every PPL night flight into a class D airport.

Equally, I am sure SVFR is available at night in the Heathrow Zone - which you can fly in with a PPL under SVFR (which probably should be thought of a special IFR).

Well I also asked Home Briefing and they advised "V" was the correct filing - as you suggested 172, or Z if crossing the FIR for onward IFR. I explained what Lille had told me to which they said ah yes, France may have their own rules!

On balance the more I think about it Z makes sense with a note of the point of change.

But this is class A airspace where you're not allowed to fly IFR unless you hold an IR.

I think you may be confusing a ATCZ with an airway.

There is no night VFR in the UK.

However you can fly IFR in class G without an IR or IMCr if you meet the met conditions. Filing IFR says nothing about the met conditions, only that you will comply with instrument flight RULES.

You cant fly in class D or class A control zones under IFR (regardless of the met conditions) unless you have an IR or IMCr.

Since you cant fly at night in the UK under VFR for a "vanilla" PPL to operate in class D or a class A CZ the remaining option is to file SVFR. That is how night training works out of say Bournemouth the majority of the time.

You are correct, you cant fly in an airway without an IR in the UK whether it is day or night.

In France you cant file IFR unless you have an IR. However in France you can fly at night under SVFR without an IR.

Fuji, my original suggestion was actually a Z FPL, but got swayed by your reasoning ;)

Both make sense in as far as the flight flies under VFR. Now legally, this doesn't work in the UK at night. Now, if we file Z, with a named FIR boundary crossing point as mm_flynn has done in his example, we keep, I think, everyone happy: the French, as we have filed VFR in their airspace and the Brits, as now, at the FIR boundary, tataaaaa, we have converted to an IFR flight. As far as I can see this, the SVFR bit only comes into play a we want to go into CAS (in the OP's posters query, the CI).

Slightly off the legalities of planning, but since the Channel Islands keeps popping up in this thread please be sure you can cope with actual night flight over the channel. Even between the islands you need to be practically capable of flying on instruments.

Please, I don't need and patronising or derogatory comments such as "rules are rules" from Spitoon - we all have to learn at some time.Hey, wrinkly, I can do patronising and derogatory and heaven knows I do sometimes - but that wasn't my aim this time.

The point I was trying to make was that we each may have views about whether VFR at night is a good thing, or SVFR or IFR without an IR...and so on, but the rules we have in the legislation in the UK permits some things and proscribes others. The situation that was under discussion was possible and legitimate simply because the current legislation deems it so. Whether the outcome is good, bad or irrelevant is anther thing. My own view, FWIW, is that having rules that enable visual flight at night is good. That those rules are subject to criteria determined by pilot qualification, visibility, class of airspace, aircraft equipment and, sometimes, the disposition of the controller, is far too complex and causes great confusion.

I suggest that when outbound from airfields in the CI Zone after dark, you file an IFR plan, and then in the remarks put "Request SVFR in CI Zone". This has done the trick in the past.

IO, out of interest, do you happen to know if VFR FPLs filed via Homebriefing go to Eurocontrol?No, IFPS (Eurocontrol) refuse to process V flight plans.

Try this with their validation website (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/j_cia_public/cia_public/pages/ifpuv-structured.jsf). It chucks them out.

As to what Homebriefing.com actually do with these, well that is a good question :) I have tried to find out, and on the rare occassions that I got a meaningful reply, it was one of

- we send them to the departure aerodrome

- we send them to departure, destination

- we send them to departure, destination, and every area FIS in which you have specified a waypoint

and maybe one or two others :)

The first one appears useless but is probably the correct procedure! The problem is what if the departure ARO is unmanned.... Actually Homebriefing have lost several of my VFR flight plans, but I have not tested it much (for VFR) in recent years.

The way VFR FPs are meant to be addressed is as per the last one, I think, (and that is what the pilot should be doing if he is using AFPEX, although I would delete the words in which you have specified a waypoint) but normally the responsibility for addressing is on the departure ARO.

I never quite understood who is supposed to be doing what in the case of a departure from some farm strip.

Interesting. I've used them around Europe (and, IRC once or twice in Africa) and the FPL always was where it was supposed to be. That, btw, includes non-towered fields where, upon calling up the regional App or Rdr/Info frequency they have - so far - never been surprised by my call :ok:


PS: I now most likely have awakened Mr. Murphy....

They once told me they have the old FP addressing manual as a computer database, and for every ICAO code (dep, dest) they have the addresses of where to send the FP to. This was apparently what went wrong on the ones they lost for me, but they apparently fixed it afterwards.

However, my recent experience is pretty limited because since early 06 nearly all my foreign flights have been IFR and thus filed via IFPS. I have not filed more than several VFR FPs in total since then, and TBH I don't really miss the perpetual uncertainty of long VFR trips :)

I cannot really help with the main thrust of this thread since I very rarely fly at night (for obvious single engine risk management reasons).

Just one comment to add on the advice above: In France, night VFR is only permitted along certain predefined routes, which appear in the AIP and in the "Guide VFR". Unfortunately my copy is in the car at the moment, so I can't check whether there is a suitable night route back to the UK. Other than that, certain other restrictions apply--the AIP (https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/frameset_encoursMSE_fr.htm) refers.

That's the theory anyway. In practise you are likely to be allowed to route as convenient, but speak to the local tower or better yet, phone the FIS controller along your route before you depart.

Other than that, a word of caution FWIW. Crossing a "non-glideable" expanse of water at night, single engine, single or no FADEC, in mid-winter puts your chances of survival at zero, should there be a mishap. I'm not very keen on flying over water at night, and I simply do not do it with passengers. Perhaps a first light departure might be a possibility instead?

In France, night VFR is only permitted along certain predefined routes, which appear in the AIP and in the "Guide VFR".

That's not what the AIP says.

ENR 1.2.3 f) Routes, minimum level
Except for take-off or landing operations and associated maneuvers, a
night VFR flight shall be carried out:
- on published routes,
- if there is no route, at a minimum height of 450 m (1500 feet) above
the highest obstacle in a 8 km radius around the estimated aircraft
position. This height is 600 m (2000 ft) for areas where the relief altitu-
de is more than 1500 m (5000 ft),

but combined with this:

ENR 1.2.3 b) For a cross-country flight
- keep visual reference to the ground or water,
- ceiling equal or more than 450 m (1500 feet) above the planned
cruising level,
- visibility equal or more than 8 km between departure, destination
and possible alternate aerodromes.

you probably need a minimum cloud ceiling of at least 3500 ft.

I never quite understood who is supposed to be doing what in the case of a departure from some farm strip.


In this case you can send it to the parent unit (EGLL for south england).

Bookworm,

you are right, of course. Thanks for the correction.

Well, I'm right according to the AIP. What one can do in practice is often different, and I've never flown night VFR in France either on or off designated routes.

"In this case you can send it to the parent unit (EGLL for south england)."

for now - but not for much longer. About 17 days left, and counting..

No more parent unit?
How it will be in 17 days?

All tasks/responsibilities currently handled and provided by Heathrow FBU are planned to be transferred to CACC Swanwick on 01Feb. There should be a Notam issued shortly to confirm this. Afpex will then be your replacement means of transmitting your flight plan.

In-house politics are finished; the Central Union representation capitulated; the empire builders now have to prove that their system will meet your needs. Why there is so much secrecy over this, fcuk only knows. You people all need to know what's going on, so that you can charge up your laptop batteries, get mobile phones with lots of credit and good network coverage, and read up on everything to do with filing FPLs and doing all the messaging work yourselves. :ok:

Time for the Heathrow FBU to move on to pastures anew - lets see where the wind takes us.

and, FWIW, its been a pleasure serving you all over the years.

I won't say 'goodbye', ... just TTFN.

get mobile phones with lots of credit and good network coverage, and read up on everything to do with filing FPLs and doing all the messaging work yourselvesOne needs a little more than "lots of credit" because AFPEX forces a 5MB java application download at every startup.

If NATS fixes that, it would be pretty good. In the meantime, we use Homebriefing (http://www.homebriefing.com) for flight plan filing while on the move.

I think it's fair to say that every modern-minded GA pilot has been asking for online flight plan filing for as long as I or anybody I know can remember, so if it took some difficult politics inside NATS to bring this about then perhaps that was a good thing. AFPEX does work, pretty well. It could be better, of course.

One needs a little more than "lots of credit" because AFPEX forces a 5MB java application download at every startup.

Just a question, what's wrong with simply (voice) phoning up some airport and filing your flight plan over the telephone? That's what I do about 50% of the time and it works fine for me, including across borders (filed a flight plan once from Austria to Germany by phoning Marseille ATS, as well as flight plans entirely in French airspace phoned in via Girona. Never a problem.)

The two filing systems I have experience with, France and Spain's, work out the routing by themselves and seem to work well. Presumably some marginal cases might need adding an address manually (which of course can be done) but I haven't come across it yet.

So my two questions:

1) Is it possible in the UK to phone any random ATS unit and file a flight plan?

2) Doesn't the AFPEX application sort out the FPL AFTN routing automatically, regardless of whether the origin, destination or alternate airfields are in the AFTN or not?

LH2

I think the reason you are apparently so much more able to get around the more distant European quirks is because you can speak more than English. The more south one goes, the more this makes a difference. I have lost count of how many "international" :ugh: airports I have phoned up, and totally failed to get through to anybody who could (or wanted to) help.

:)

1) Is it possible in the UK to phone any random ATS unit and file a flight plan?I don't think so.

In practice your tower of departure will take a written FP and I don't see this ever changing - not least because so many pilots operate totally outside any system and expect to do weather+FP via the tower office.

By phone, they usually don't like doing it except for the locals and then only if not busy.

2) Doesn't the AFPEX application sort out the FPL AFTN routing automatically, regardless of whether the origin, destination or alternate airfields are in the AFTN or not?For IFR, yes, it just goes to the two IFPS addresses.

For VFR, it offers some assistance but you need to use your head a bit.

But you cannot get access unless you are UK resident. It's a long process which takes several months. I think they check if you knew Kim Philby :)

BTW, AFPEX was created primarily for airfields, and today that is what they use. For years, they used to fax the flight plans (handed to them at the tower) to Heathrow, whose staff were reportedly stuffing c. 3000 flight plans per month, nearly all VFR, into the AFTN. That facility is being closed. It is utterly amazing how long it lasted, in today's technological age. Unions!

IMHO, the best system out there is Homebriefing (http://www.homebriefing.com). It works. :D

HB is excellent. You get SMS/email notifications of FP acceptance/rejection which is most useful in the real scenario: the pilot is heading to depart and doesn't have a PC in front of him.

OTOH, AFPEX gives you an instant (few secs) acc/rej for IFR FPs. HB can take a few mins, which is fine.

I think one should get both of these. They both have their value.

If AFPEX got rid of the 5MB java download (which would cost me £50 on Vodafone PAYG) and implemented an email forwarding of any messages popping into the AFPEX message box, it would be the dog's b******s. One can pick up text emails on any half decent mobile phone, Blackberry, etc. It would cost them precisely nothing.

While it's not as handy as SMS, the AFPEx helpdesk is happy to check for slots and delay/change FPLs by phone.

Indeed, and actually my experience of the Afpex telephone service is a lot better than my experience of the HB telephone service.

Sometimes HB have just one man there and if he is on the phone, you get a long wait. I remember blowing a £100 PAYG credit in 2007, trying to get through to them, listening to their switchboard music. It was a pretty vital scenario but it is only when the sh*t hits the fan that one will need to phone these services in the first place. This is unusual but....

Mind you, that is with a very tiny sample size :)

When I have free internet on my own laptop then I use Afpex, and when I am on GPRS/3G I use HB at Euro 4/flight plan.

I suggested Afpex should implement copying of messages to email (a preconfigured email address) because it would cost them zilch, whereas sending them via SMS (as HB do) would be complicated because they would need to set up a payments system (which NATS will never do because IMHO Afpex was driven wholly by the FBU staffing cost savings, not by any desire to deliver GA pilot services).

BTW, somebody did develop a hack for the Afpex java download, by editing the header on the locally stored java application file so it doesn't download every time, but this will still fail if Afpex change the application date/time stamp, and you will get the £50 bill to find out ;)

If on 3G, unless you are on an inclusive data contract, it would be cheaper to run Afpex by accessing your home PC over PC/Anywhere or Terminal Services :)

IO,

speak more than English. The more south one goes, the more this makes a difference.

Now that you mention it, I suppose it makes sense. Never thought about it before :bored:

Funnily enough, it works both ways--an English-speaking pilot turns out to be very valuable down South :}

Thanks for the other info re. flight plans & AFPEX. I am more or less aware how AFPEX works and I could technically apply for a login, but I just don't seem to have a need. When you say several months, do you mean literally?

LH,

It takes about a week or so to get your account on AFPEx.

IO540,

From Fax to internet was the priority. Email and SMS are next on the agenda. As Take That said, 'have a little patience'.

It takes about a week or so to get your account on AFPEx.

Glad to hear it has been reduced from "months" which the early subscribers waited for (myself included).

It would be great to have email/sms notifications. Well done heinke, whoever you are ;) Will you also fix the java download? It does mean you will need to freeze the development state of the client application, but that should be easy because it is just a dumb terminal.

ll flight in the UK at night has to be conducted under IFR for pretty obviouse reasons really. Now just because you dont have an instrument rating does not mean you arent able to fly IFR. Of course your not afforded the same priviliges as an instrument rated pilot but if you have a night rating and are current, then you can fly ifr outside of controlled airspace or even svfr inside class d atz to name an example. The misconception is that only instrument rated pilots can fly or file IFR and that is far from the truth. To fly to minima or fly in class A airspace or airways which of course are class A in the UK, then indeed a current IR is needed. Another misconception is that IMC rated pilots can fly to procedure chart minima. Again this is not the case and in the UK and IMC is no substitute for an IR. All an IMC does is reduce the minima required for VFR flight down to 1800m which is required for take off and landing. Any chart minima is of course well below this.

debiassi,

thank you for replying, but I think you will find that everything you say about flying "IFR" in the UK is well known and has already been covered on this thread, and everything you say about IMC has been the subject of long and typically acrimonious discussions here in the past.