Gays in the RAF

[GaiPilot]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. I am a Gay 21 Yr old male on the verge of joining the RAF as a Pilot. I am due to start IOT soon. I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am Gay to my new work colleagues. If I make it to the front line as a single seat Pilot, which is my hope, what sort of attitude do you think I could expect from a very male orientated proffession? Is there still a very much homophobic attitude or will I be accepted for who I am. I am very much looking forward to the training, maybe not so much the initial 30 odd weeks at IOT, but once I start flying it will be my dream come true.

Thank you for your time.

[ShyTorque]

I think you should just keep quiet and get on with the job.

[x213a]

Why do you identify yourself by your sexuality? Identify yourself for who you are ffs, not by who you like to pump.

I dare say that scandal will surround you in your forthcoming career. If you feel the need to openly declare your sexuality or identify yourself by such then I dare say the armed forces are not for you. You will only perceive issues where none exist and create disharmony, ending in a tabloid centre spread starring yourself and how you was hounded out of a job you loved etc etc.

Be yourself and people will accept you for what you are. They may think you are a good egg or may think you are a total chiseller. That will be down to your personality though, not your sexuality.

[GaiPilot]

If you feel the need to openly declare your sexuality or identify yourself by such then I dare say the armed forces are not for you

Well it's funny that you should write that because my initial interest in the RAF came form the recruitment team that was at the Gay Pride Parade. Now they obviously wanted to identify us so why should I hide it? What is going to happen when I turn up with my partner for a social function in the Officers Mess? Is the Station Commanders wife going to feint when I introduce him as my life partner?

[Jackonicko]

Until very recently, being gay was a bar to service in HM's Armed Forces, and they remain an extremely conservative organisation, many of whose members have old fashioned, conservative values and views.

This is why the Forces are where you find dedication and loyalty to queen and country, and where you find cameraderie and esprit de corps that don't exist elsewhere.

These old fashioned, conservative values are what underpin fighting spirit and combat effectiveness, and it would be tragic if Political Correctness ran rampant in the military.

But the flipside is that you also find profoundly illiberal attitudes, including some homophobia. Many people within and without the forces (myself included) would view it as a retrograde step that homosexuality is now 'permitted' within the services. Others would find it very hard to understand your 'preferences'.

My advice would be to listen carefully to the advice you have been given.

If you really can't 'convert' to lady-lurv, then maybe you should keep shtum about your abomination! :E

Good luck with IOT.

[GaiPilot]

Many people within and without the forces (myself included) would view it as a retrograde step that homosexuality is now 'permitted' within the services.

If the selectors at OASC have seen fit to give me the chance to be a fast jet pilot in the RAF why should my sexuality bar me from doing that?

and it would be tragic if Political Correctness ran rampant in the military.

I didn't realise that being Gay was me being politically correct. Not all have these old fashioned and outdated values you talk about. Maybe Servicemen like yourself are the ones who can't or won't change. If I ever meet you on a front line fast jet squadron then does that mean you will ignore me even if I am capable of doing the job asked of me?

[scarecrow450]

Just don't turn into the RAF'S Graham Norton as an ex work member did. I did'nt broadcast how many ladies I'd been with, he thought we needed to know all about his sex life. We did'nt !!!
Keep it stum and don't brag/broadcast it.:*

[mutleyfour]

This has to be a wind up?

[Wholigan]

Whether it's a wind up or not, I don't think it'll be here for me to read tomorrow!

[x213a]

Bugger!

I bit:}

Wah!

I think 'Vegetarians in the Royal Navy' is a subject of more worthy debate. The number of times I was delayed in the scran queue by veggies waiting for their customised ommlettes to be created outraged me! Then there were the wrens who would decide they were veggie all of a sudden (mess fad) so a disproportionate amount of the cook's efforts went into stuffed peppers and alpen ommlettes and not my Sunday roasts:=

[Hugh S]

I'm afraid you won't be able to join the RAF.

You see - I'm the only gay in the Air Force!

Seriously, although the previous advice may seem to be fairly right wing, it is both accurate and sensible. Although many in the RAF couldn't really give a toss whether you are gay or straight (as long as don't chat them up), there are still a reasonable number who would find the situation difficult to deal with, despite compulsory diversity and equality training.

Aircrew tend to be judged on ability, not sex or sexuality. If you are a nice bloke, reasonably good at your job, and don't make it overly obvious that you are gay, most guys on the squadron will accept you for who you are. The RAF (in theory at least) will come down heavily on anyone who tries to make life difficult for you.

[AllTrimDoubt]

You might be more suited to the backseat, but then...

...Not sure if I'd want you in the boot given your persuasions...

Nah, go push a cart for Easymob!

[NutLoose]

I hope you do well and get on and get your dream flying Job, but I would not ram your sexuality down peoples throats....... pun NOT intended..

Seriously, as with all things in life, a few people as you have seen get on their high horse when something like this is brought up. You also may as with all things in life run up against the odd bigot in th RAF, so get yourself through all of your training etc first and go from there...

Myself, I couldnt give a damn what anyones sexual orientation is, I have several friends that are Gay, but they do not make a point of broadcasting it to the world..... maybe till you are sorted that might be the way forward, unfortunately as we see in this equal world, not all things are.....

After all not everyone walks into a room like Lord FlasHeart off Blackadder and announce to the world they wish to shag the pants off every woman present....

[Jackonicko]

Gai pilot,

Calm down, feller.

"If the selectors at OASC have seen fit to give me the chance to be a fast jet pilot in the RAF why should my sexuality bar me from doing that?"

I didn't say it should, or would, only that some of your colleagues would still believe that it should. If you want a career where homosexuality is completely accepted, the military probably isn't it, just yet, and that it's still an area where you perhaps wouldn't be well advised to broadcast the fact, nor to expect that 'introducing your life partner' to the Staish would be a grand idea.

"I didn't realise that being Gay was me being politically correct."

It isn't, and that's not what I said. Conservative values generally (not insofar as they relate to homosexuals) are an integral (and I believe essential) part of military effectiveness and fighting spirit, and you'll need to understand and accept them, even if you don't share all of them.

"Not all have these old fashioned and outdated values you talk about."

Nor did I say that they did. Only that many do.

"Maybe Servicemen like yourself are the ones who can't or won't change. If I ever meet you on a front line fast jet squadron then does that mean you will ignore me even if I am capable of doing the job asked of me?"

I'm not a serviceman - hence the within and without. You may run across me if you make the cut, and I'll be happy to meet you, and will treat you with courtesy and respect. That respect will reduce if you are militant or pushy about your sexuality. Just as I grudgingly accept your right to combine a career in the military with what I view as being a sexual perversion, you'd be well advised to grudgingly accept that there are people whose acceptance of gays in the military is ........ grudging!

You'll find that most of your future comrades in arms won't give a toss, and those who do will have the politeness and courtesy not to ram their 'intolerance' down your throat, and you'd be well advised to be equally circumspect.

In the light of your posts, I'd suggest that you may have bigger obstacles in your path than your homosexuality. You need to accept that the needs of the service will outweigh your own, and that rights you'd take for granted in civilian life won't be yours in the Forces. Learn not to take yourself too seriously, and learn to laugh at yourself, and quietly (to yourself) at those who may have hang ups with who you are.

[x213a]

If this is indeed not a wind up then i'd say you are wholly unsuited to a life in the forces. Already on this thread you have claimed 'issues' and jumped to conclusions (your reply to Jackonicko). I think you have a chip on your shoulder. The forces do not need the likes of you.

[mephisto88]

Mate, you've gotta be winding people up, but if you are legit, I think you should let all your fellow students and instructors know that you bat for the other team, so that you can be accorded all due consideration and respect.
I'm not sure how comfortable all the other more normal students will be in the communal showers or other aspects that require them to be in close quarters with you, but be prepared for the occasional and not very pc comment.
Failing that, come dunnunder, I hear the Australian military these days gives everyone a fair go, they'd no doubt welcome you with open arms so to speak, so you could always consider having a crack at that. No pun intended.

Oh yeah - good luck

[MarkD]

I suspect being gay is a bigger issue for the Military Forum of PPRuNe than it is for the RAF, judging by previous threads pertaining to this subject matter.

[Roadster280]

Gai Pilot -

As has been referred to, there has been a thread or two in the past couple of years about this. I have to say, (somewhat to my shame), I was one of those that made some very disparaging remarks in the debate. I've been out of the mob a lot longer now, and so am a little less institutionalised.

The change in Military Law that permitted the engagement of homosexuals took place less than 10 years ago. Thus you will find some who you serve with (under, given their seniority), who will have maintained the attitude they were indoctrinated with on joining. Gays were not just illegal, they were the very dirt on the boots of those who serve. When "Pink Wednesday" arrived, we were just told (and I quote) "This is an order. Salute, turn to the right and march out".

Given your age, I should imagine you have no comprehension of the enormity of this issue at the time. I'd even venture to suggest that you have known you are gay for less than the time that this practice is now allowed, and in the context of a military career, it's only been since NAAFI break.

I say this because my advice to you is along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell". If you want to be a career homosexual, the Armed Forces are probably not for you. If you want to be a career pilot, then the RAF is a good choice. Don't let one issue confuse the other though.

Best of luck, and thank you for your intended service.

[Load Toad]

I'm not RAF - just a normal civvy but just for the sake of supplying an opinion...

Why do some people think that anyone else wants to know or has interest in what or who they like to have sexual relations with? People that don't care about others sexuality have the right to remain ignorant.

I can't recall ever having someone say 'I'd like to work in your laboratory - by the way I like straight sex but occasionally some light to medium BDSM doesn't go amiss - I'm open to a little mutual DIY and I don't mind some web cam action - I've got GCSE's in chemistry and maths'.

There's a difference between an employer being equal opportunities and actually wanting to bleedin' well have it discussed.

This may come as a shock - but not everyone is interested in what a unique and beautiful little snowflake you are.

[XV666]

I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am Gay to my new work colleagues.

No

All the reasons have already been given: if this isn't a wind up, why not accept the advice :rolleyes:

[hoofie]

This has to be a wind-up surely ??

I would hope that anyone wanting to join the RAF as a pilot [and been selected as such according to the original poster] is so determined to do so that ANY obstacle, including a homophobic environment, will not get in their way - I know there are a number of posters here who have been in that situation in the past but got on with it.

If the bloke who started this would take the time to read pprune [both now and many times in the past], it would be clear to him that your personal job and task performance is what counts, not what gender you prefer in bed.

I'm just a civvie but still have a nagging regret that I didn't pursue at career in the RAF when the chance was there. And as a humble civilian, I think the original poster has his priorities way out of whack and honestly doesn't sound like the type of person who deserves or should receive the privilege of flying anything for his country. And no doubt when he is chopped, he will blame it all on 'homophobia' rather than admit he just wasn't good enough.

[TheInquisitor]

GP,

One of the never-changing aspects of the military is this: If there is something about you that sets you apart from everybody else, you will have the piss taken out of you for it. This is an essential part of military life - banter between mates, and is one of the ways we bond as a military unit. Accept it for what it is, and give as good as you get, and you will earm respect. Don't take offence or see it as an insult. In fact, NOT receiving banter is a BAD sign!

Judging by the tone of your posts so far, the future does not bode well for you. Your choice of PPRuNe handle, for one, speaks volumes. Remember, you will be joining to serve the Service; the Service is not there to serve you. Being gay is (quite rightly in my opinion, despite the fact that I am mildly homophobic) no barrier to you joining - but if you present yourself as a 'gay pilot', rather than a pilot who just happens to be gay, you will encounter difficulty. If you are joining to push your personal agenda on the service, or to 'mix things up', you will not last very long. This is not about 'homophobia', it is about people putting their personal proclivities before their Service. Any percieved minority group who bleat on about their minority status would encounter difficulty in the same way.

Earn respect by giving 100% effort, and building professional competence. If you are a likeable chap, and get on with most people, you will be accepted regardless. If you take every available opportunity to remind people of your sexuality, and try to push your views on others, you will not. Your 'minority' status does not entitle you to automatic respect or opportunity. In addition, you need to be sensitive to others in the Service who may not accept you. The Service has been around a long time, you have not. If you start demanding that people accept you, you will not last very long. I would suggest that 'Introducing your life partner to the Stn Cdr at a mess function' would be seen as provocative, so don't do it. Just take it on the chin, as we all have to, and get on with it, and you will earn peoples' respect.

If you are as keen and dedicated as you claim, you will be an asset to the Service. I wish you the best of luck. Just don't mince, wear make-up, or drink shandy in the mess.....:E

[juliet]

Hi all,

Im a Muslim extremist terrorist with paid up membership of the Nazi Party. Im not gay, well it depends on what you call gay, will I fit in on a squadron?

Jeez Gai, there are just some things you should keep to yourself. The reality is that some people will view you in the same light as the above while some will completely accept you. I imagine most will just try to ignore it. The less of an issue you make of it the better, ie dont try to force people to accept you as a gay, they will or they wont, just remember that its not your right to be accepted as gay on a personal level.

[FFP]

GaiPilot,

Firstly, good luck with IOT and Pilot Training. With ambitions to be a single seat pilot, it's a pity the Jag force isn't around still.............:E (Take that back. Cheap shot. Not cheap enough for me to delete it though...)

Don't make a deal out of it and few others will. Don't let it be your defining characteristic though. Your "sexual perversion" is little different to the conservative value members who suck on oranges with black bin bags over their heads whilst wearing high heels.

I'm sure they didn't announce that at IOT.......

Let professionalism and ability be what people know you for, as it is with hetrosexuals.

P.S Jacko, you may find the RAF more liberal than you think. Those you describe usually sit in the corner of the mess, stinking of wee waiting for 55 to come. Times are a changing.....

[allan909]

It strikes me that the original poster is throwing out a challenge and making an issue out his sexuality already. The signs are definitely there that he will continue to do that when, and if, he makes it through the system.

All it will do will bring grief on his head - either intentional or unintentional.

Keep your urgings to yourself. Eventually people will suss your situation out but by that time they will have, hopefully, reached the conclusion that you're not a bad bloke and what you do is your own affair.

However.....if you really, really want to push it into peoples faces then I sincerely hope that your IOT flt cdr will start writing up your "chop" sheet from day one after the initial interview where you declare your sexuality and challenge him/her to accept you warts and all. That's what I would have done when I was there.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Nice to see some of the forum bigots waving their own d1cks around on here. Please, including you Jacko, go and write a letter to The Daily Mail and be outraged elsewhere. You are most certainly not required.
OP - just be good at your job and you'll be accepted. Just be yourself and don't feel you 'have to make a statement' or anything - we just want professional people - who can spell professional correctly :}

[Wensleydale]

I am old enough to remember the unwritten Mess rules of tabboo subjects for discussion: Politics; Religion; The Ladies. Perhaps it is time to add "sexuality" to that list and start fining bottles of port outside dining in nights again. Once we get back to discussing just aeroplanes and the best ways of war then we perhaps may rediscover the ethos that used to be the family of the RAF.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Mr Gaipilot

Congrats on being selected for what is arguably the coolest job in the world. However, pin your ears back and switch to receive (ooh err:})

The fact that you have introduced yourself on a public forum just before you start IOT as the "only gay in the village" is not wise. Trust me, people in the RAF may have views either way about your persuasion BUT provided you pitch up to work are reliable, trustworthy and someone they would want to go to war with, they will not give the slightest sh!t about your sexuality.

YOU are making the issue out of it here and the differing replies are testament to the mixed feeling for this subject. I think you are displaying a worrying lack of maturity (considering your chosed profession- note 1 'f') making an issue out of your sexuality this publically before you go to IOT.

You are right to aspire to be a single seat fast jet mate, you shouldn't be here if you don't however, this is a long slog and there are many pitfalls along the way. Please don't make your sexuality some kind of issue as you go through training, people will alienate you very quickly and you will sit there thinking, "they all hate me 'cos I am gay", WRONG!! They will be thinking " we hate him 'cos he is a bell end"

IOT/EFT/BFJT/AFT/OCU all takes a long time, moral courage and resilience and the RAF is a small place these days, if you piss someone off on day 1, guess what they could end up being you QFI at Valley and you may just find SAP 4 unpassable!!!:ok:

Treat people as you would wish to be treated, respect other people's sensitivies to your chosen path, as you do with others. Bottom line be a good bloke, don't introduce yourself as "the gay one" and people will not give two hoots. If you have visions of being the first or some trailblazer then you are far too late, there are competent gay men/women in all fleets (some more than others:}) so stop grandstanding and get on with polishing your boots and learning how to make hospital corners on your bed......

Good luck, sadly I am not convinced we have heard the last of you

[D O Guerrero]

Christ.... this post makes for depressing reading. Its worse than a Daily Mail editorial.
GP, I think you've probably experienced a flavour of the kind of moronic comments and attitude you can expect to find in the RAF.
It seems to me that a person's ability to do their job in the forces is what matters, not your sexuality. Yes, people will have a problem with it and when your back is turned will make comments about you and your "perversion", to quote JN. To your face they will be pleasant and poilte and feign tolerance about your partner. Strange though that they will be the ones making the big deal about it, not you. Why the hell should you hide who you are just to please the idiotic bigotry that is clearly alive and well in the RAF?
A lot of people will say "I haven't got a problem with gays, I just don't want it shoved down my throat". Yes, highly original and hilarious. But, what they really mean is "I have got a problem with gays, they scare me and I want to sound a bit more liberal than I really am". Any sentence that begins with "I haven't got a problem with....", "some of my best friends...." or "with all due respect..." usually mean precisely the opposite.
Many men have a total fear of homosexuals; they believe, as evidenced here, that you will be eyeing them up in the shower or cruising the mess accommodation by night. They also have an irrational belief that all gay men want to have sex with them. They think that it is ok for them to talk about tits and fanny and be one of the lads in the bar, but that it is not acceptable for you to do the same because you have a perversion. I would think you can probably live with all that and deal with it. But it will not be easy. The RAF is about 30 or 40 years behind the rest of society when it comes to social attitudes and in some respects it still (along with the other services, to a lesser extent in my experience) serves as a haven for the socially inadequate, where they can maintain their "old-fashioned", or as I would call it, offensive, attitudes and beliefs. The same people still refer to "WRAF's" and believe that women should do only the typing or stay at home to kick out offspring for them.
You will find some people who are genuinely unbothered, but not many. At the same time, it is no better in civvy street. The difference in the RAF is that officially, discrimination against gay people is not permitted. Whilst a flavour of homophobia prevails, it is not officially tolerated.
So its a mixed bag really and will depend entirely on who you end up working with. If you can put up with the sniggering, then you should be fine. If it really bothers you and you see yourself becoming a champion of gay rights, I'd give it a miss and preserve your sanity. You have every right to serve your country regardless of your sexuality and I wouldn't pay a single bit of attention to the cretins on here (I potentially include myself in this description...).
I think its a real shame that a young person who has asked a serious question, very politely, about what he clearly has worked very hard to achieve, is shot down in flames like this. The majority of people here should be ashamed of themselves.

[luoto]

But why should someone be forced to change their views? Whatever they are?

Now I can understand their BEHAVIOUR being forcilbly changed, as there are people who think it is alright to kill a certain ethnic group, to discriminate against a certain section of society or to steal things. Their behaviour can be reprehensible and should be prohibited at times.

[D O Guerrero]

Behaviour is what we're talking about. People are entitled to think what they like. Translating it into actions or words is an entirely different matter...
I just thought - imagine if the poster's name was girlpilot, and she asked what it would be like in the RAF as a pilot and whether she would experience any discrimination. She would be being slathered with "looking forward to seeing you on the squadron" etc etc in the style of some 1950's Terry Thomas farce... Would people be lambasting her for a feminist rant and telling her best she keep her woman-like opinions to herself and not give any hint that she thinks like this, how dare she use the forces as a platform for making her disgusted perverted bra-burning opinions public... blah blah blah? I think not.

[taxydual]

Gays in the RAF.

In this day and age, I suppose, it's enevitable.

I've only 2 thoughts on the matter,

1, Don't ask, don't tell

2. Pray to God that it's not made compulsory!

[The Helpful Stacker]

If this isn't wind-up then I can only echo what has been said by some others already. Don't ask, don't tell.

Your sexuality has no bearing on your ability to do the job unless you want to make it an issue.

[A2QFI]

When/if you pass all your training and courses and finish up with the award of your wings what will you be more proud of - being a qualified pilot or being gay?

My take on this, for what it is worth, is that rather than joining the Forum as "Proud Potential Pilot" you have chosen a name related to your sexual orientation, and this might sugest that this is more important to you than your potential career as aircrew.

[Monty77]

I just hope you're not ginger as well.:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

I joined the mob in 69 (!!), and thought myself on a continuum from rebellious (mildly) through to broad-minded.

I am well surprised to see such a topic on Prune! I mean, DOES IT MATTER?

My attitude to gays (in general) altered when I joined civvy airlines and got to know one or two as PEOPLE rather than labels. I've done all the ribald comments etc etc.

If it really isn't a wind-up (which I think it is - and a good one too), it should be.

'T'ain't nobody's business but yours' - I would keep it that way if you don't want a world of grief. However 'nice' people are, we all have self-control that is soluble in alcohol, and there's plenty of that.

Dare I say 'Keep your head down' - (oh dear, sorry . . .)

[Green Flash]

Gay, Straight, Politician(:}), Girl Guides, whatever - Terry Taliban doesn't care which side you bat for. Don't ask, don't tell, do your job, stay alive.

[oldpinger]

All I can say is thank #### I moved to Australia. Strangely enough, pretty well no one gives a rats and everyone just gets on with the job.

As some have said above- gay, straight who cares? it's whether you can do the job is what counts.

:ugh:

[FrogPrince]

Your sexuality is of little or no consequence to a career in the RAF, or the wider world, unless you yourself make it so...

My missus is an ex-teacher and she taught me the importance of the phrase 'image is reality'. By what measures do you want your friends and colleagues to form their opinion of you ? Will your sexuality come top in how you define yourself (gay, then officer, then pilot etc.) ? If so, then others will pick up the same prominent features, but from their own perspective, whether that is tolerant or not.

This does not mean hiding what you are, btw. The most heinous crime I could commit as a reservist would be to say 'I can't do that, I'm only TA' because I would be defining myself by my difference to my Regular compadres, rather than emphasising the strengths and skills that I have.

Make sense ?

FP

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Keep your private life private. You'll be judged on ability, merit and there'll be no problem. If you try to set yourself apart as different in any significant way from your colleagues (and I'm not just talking sexuality here), then there will be friction. The RAF aircrew community is a very cohesive, loyal, family. Become part of it - do not fight to remain visibly different from that community.

I suspect that's not what you want to hear but I think it's pretty honest advice.

[SALAD DODGER]

I think you will find that the RAF is quite accepting, and most of the younger generation will not find your sexuality an issue.

I know three gay pilots in the RAF, and one in the Navy. All are open with their sexuality, lead a normal life and let the Flying do the talking. As long as you are happy to be one of the lads and enjoy some banter, and do your job well then its really no problem. The current generation of Pilots and aircrew will be supportive of you provided you don't use your sexuality as an excuse or a barrier to being a team player.

You will get biggots and idiots in any walk of life, and you have already heard their outdated ramblings. I guarantee that if you show that you are a superb Officer and Pilot, no one will stand in your way, and you can have a fantastic life in the RAF.

Be yourself, and if the RAF is not for you you can always fly Navy!

[thunderbird7]

"I can't recall ever having someone say 'I'd like to work in your laboratory - by the way I like straight sex but occasionally some light to medium BDSM doesn't go amiss - I'm open to a little mutual DIY and I don't mind some web cam action - I've got GCSE's in chemistry and maths'."



Very good! And spot on! Just don't camp it up like a BA steward and you'll be fine.

[barnstormer1968]

What troubled me from the early posts, was mention of going on a gay pride march.
This could (note, didn't say will) suggest an image of being proud to be gay, or needing to tell others you are gay.
Often in life, folks whom are proud to be something (which others would just get on with) may have a chip on their shoulder.

During my training with the British army:
I was severely punched in the face during an NBC lesson. This was because I had done something stupid.

Repeatedly marched over a puddle of oil (in my best parade uniform) until I slipped over into it. This was because I was very good at doing drill, and had been showing off, thus I needed bringing down to earth.

I was once in an office, where I was ordered to turn round, and was promptly told to "**** off short ass", followed by a harsh kick to my backside. This was to remind me I had not saluted as I entered the office.

These are only a few examples of service life (PS ignore all here who have never served, as the military is a different world, not just alternative career path).
Now, NONE OF THE ABOVE BOTHERED ME AT ALL, and were all part of military life. If however any such things ever happen to you, and you wonder if if was because you are gay (even if that's why it happened) then military life is not for you.

Throughout my career I was often called "short-ass" or "Paki" (I am dark skinned), And none of this bothered me, as they were only names. If truth be told, the folks who said these things to me, would happily stand shoulder to shoulder in tough times

So although I realise the RAF has a much easier life than the army, if this is not a wind up, then please think long and hard as to whether you are up to the job.

[Clockwork Mouse]

If you really are serious, take good note of the different tones of the posts you have attracted and learn from them. They show a cross section of the views, stereotypes and prejudices you will face if you join up.

The official line is now that it doesn’t matter any more what your sexual proclivity is. However, how you exercise that proclivity must not detract from the operational effectiveness of the unit you are one team member of. Armed Services exist to deliver state sponsored violence to the state’s enemies as decisively and efficiently as possible. It is sometimes forgotten, even by those serving, that all servicemen and women, whatever their trade, may one day be required to fight and so must ultimately be willing to kill or be killed, however unlikely that eventuality may seem. This implies that those you may go into combat with must trust you with their lives, and you must trust them with yours. If you are perceived as a weak link or unreliable, you will not be trusted and so you will degrade the effectiveness of your unit until you are removed from it.

Everyone’s first impressions are dictated by the mental stereotypes they hold. John Prescott perceives anyone living in the countryside as an upper-class Tory twit. Junior ranks perceive Air Officers as only interested in their pension and knighthood. Most people perceive journalists as blood-sucking leeches. Fortunately those prejudices seldom survive actual contact with the object in question (journalists excepted).

It will be the same with you. Your success or failure as a member of the RAF team will depend on how you are perceived by the other team members after you have joined. So how you perceive yourself is very important. If you see yourself as a pilot you will be in with a chance. If you see yourself as a gay pilot you will have less chance, but if you just see yourself as gay, forget it.

If you really want to join up, and especially to become a successful service pilot, put your sexuality firmly on the need to know shelf. Whatever you decide, good luck.

[Lurking123]

There should be no difference. I worked with a number of openly gay/bisexual people in the RAF; I also remember the occasional sex change that brought some hilarity (Benson late 90s). Your only problem will be if you try to use your sexuality as a tool to gain advantage. I remember when we first took on female pilots where there was a very small minority that decided to either play the sympathy or victimisation card. This was a real pity as the majority of the girls could easily hold their own.

So, back to gays. They have been around the armed forces for a while (way before the rules changed in 1999) and most people just didn't have an issue. As for those who advise you to keep things quiet, I must ask why? Just behave like an officer.

[RODF3]

I am due to start IOT soon. I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am Gay to my new work colleagues

Would you expect a heterosexual to march into the bar and announce it. No. So why should you? Get on with the job and you will be accepted for what you can do, not who you like to do!

[SkyCamMK]

Gay or straight being selected for IOT is light years away from being operational - I am expecting you will not make it but hope you do andthat you learn a lot along the way....

[Fareastdriver]

Frog Prince

Read the instructions available to how to post pictures on PPrune so that everybody's text isn't spread to next door.

[The Adjutant]

Gay pilot.

OK, gay I can understand but a PILOT? my goodness how wierd is that.

[8-15fromOdium]

Would you expect a heterosexual to march into the bar and announce it.


No ... but you would expect a pilot to.

[brakedwell]

Having wound everybody up methinks GP has fast jetted off on a gay pride march :{:{

[Sentry Agitator]

I cannot believe that you didn't ask at the AFCO or at any stage of the recruitment process before you got this far down the line. It would have been far more discreet than 'outing' yourself in a public domain. You have been accepted you say and are now just a little concerned about what you are getting yourself in to and what others may think? Flabbergasted!

Obviously, it shouldn't matter in this day and age but with some you meet it will. The replies on here are testament to that. I honestly find it difficult to deal with homosexuals in general and not just at work. That is my issue to come to terms with and those that I do know are thankfully very discreet. You will just have to get on with it if being a blue suit Pilot is really what you want to be. Just do your best, pull your weight, don't look at using your sexuality as an excuse for why you are doing well/badly throughout training and keep your private life private.

However, now that you have announced on here that you are starting IOT soon then everyone on the next intake or two will be wondering which future pilot has the tag GP on PPRuNe. No doubt there will also be sweepstakes on the go as well.

As for luck......I think you will need lots of it

SA

[airborne_artist]

http://kromeblog.kromeboy.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dont-feed-troll.jpg

[Wader2]

now that you have announced on here that you are starting IOT soon then everyone on the next intake or two will be wondering which future pilot

from brighton, aged 21,

has the tag GP on PPRuNe. No doubt there will also be sweepstakes on the go as well.

And what I hope is a final point - there is no privacy in the Mess and you will be in the Mess for perhaps the next 4 years.

[airborne_artist]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.Gents - and ladies, this thread is a wind-up :ugh:

[Re-Heat]

While younger people won't care, older people rarely grow out of their original beliefs. Of course, it is an employer's duty to treat everyone fairly, but there is no necessity for an employer to know.

As for your colleagues, what bearing does it have upon them. Little to none really - when you socialise with people and go to the pub / club with them, you rarely hear anyone announcing "by the way - I'm heterosexual" in civilian / military life. Why should it be different if you are gay?

There are of course those of both sides who wear their sexuality as a badge - different girl every Friday / different chap every Friday - if that is you, and the way you want to behave when off duty, so be it - you will be judged for the tart that you are, not for your sexuality.

However, if you are are more normal character and associate with people who are balanced, most of them won't care if you are out or not. Basically, if you want to be defined as "gay", then by all means announce it. But expect people to be prejudiced - it is reality that many are.

If on the other hand, you want to be judged as a team player, great chap, great pilot, then work hard to define yourself as that. If people afterward meet your partner, they won't define you as gay, but the team player, great chap, and great pilot you always were - if they behave otherwise, they weren't worth knowing.

[x213a]

Will he get issued brown wings? :}

[alwayzinit]

GP if you can take banter and I mean no holes barred (no pun intended) banter then go ahead.

In my experience in the Crewroom, Mess or any pub/bar that you as bunch may be frequenting, any foible, character trait, physical difference, foot size , ear size anything will get the SH1t ripped out of it.

It's not personal it's banter. :E

Now if you are one who reacts badly to banter.....................................

Nuff said and Good Luck

[Airborne Aircrew]

there is no privacy in the MessThat's because they all sleep together already... Probably a selling point for Gai and why the RAF were recruiting pilots at a gay pride march... :}

Funny, 3 pages of responses to one of the most obvious trolls in recent history... Thought you hoccifer types were supposed to be smart... But you keep bashing on even after you've had it pointed out to you... :ugh:

[Re-Heat]

He might be a troll, but is does not mean there are not others who are wondering the very same, who have nowhere else to ask the question.

[Pontius Navigator]

As he said to the confessor many decades ago, "give us a kiss and I'll tell you."

He lost his clearance, the other guy didn't, but I have no diea about the other guy.

[GaiPilot]

Gentlemen I can assure you this is not a wind up. I am deadly serious about my career in the RAF. There appears to be very many prejudices still left in the RAF amongst front line aircrew and I do wonder how many of you actually are Aircrew. Perhaps the Military Aircrew section should be retitled to something a little more appropriate. Just one last thing though, I can take the advice about keeping schtumm about my sexuality and it will be easy to hide, but please please tell me how on earth I can hide my ginger hair?:eek: You see we poofters do have a sense of humour. It sounds like I am going to need one.

Thank you for the PM's I received though.

[Airborne Aircrew]

but is does not mean there are not others who are wondering the very same, who have nowhere else to ask the question.Re-Heat:

Don't worry, you'll fit right in... But be aware that the lads know that the soap on the shower floor is a trap... :uhoh:

[Melchett01]

As someone recently back from the sandpit, heres' my tuppence worth:

As long as you get on with the job, have a sense of humour and I feel as though I can trust you when we're on ops, then quite frankly it doesn't matter one iota. And a big hint: the being able to trust you on ops is the most important point!

And that's the view that the vast majority of RAF professionals will take. Only you can make this an issue. On the plus side, it's just less competition for the ladies for the rest of us :ok:

[flash8]

May I say that being overly self-conscious is one the reasons you are asking the question - other people will be as self conscious as you are - you have a hang up about it? So will others - its thats simple.

The ex-Mil guys I fly with generally are an excellent bunch - with fantastic attitudes - and if anything - are more tolerant than the average guy (or gal).

Good luck!

[x213a]

I think it was a wind-up chaps. (I bit also).

Nevertheless- I think the best advice for any prospective members of the armed forces who are partial to mincing is...

Be yourself. You will be judged on ability, personality and the ability to laugh at oneself. BANTER holds the forces together. Banter, as said before, homes in on whatever sets yopu apart. If you actively identify yourself according to sexuality then the AF do not need or want you. You will only blame any criticism on your abilities on your advertised sexuality and thence discrimination..

To any gay people out there (I think this thread was a windup but)...Dont identify yourself by your sexuality. Prove yourself through aptitude and personality. If you manage that then even if you were accused of being a baby killer the lads will still look to defend you if possible.

Sexuality is not an identity in the armed forces. It never has been and hopefully never will. Being good at your job and integrating forms your identity. You may be a prick, you may be not. It wont be primarily down to your sexuality though.

[BigGrecian]

The fact you've even started a thread about this and your choice of handle implies you have issues.

Just go and get on with your job!

There are plenty of other people who are gay in the Air Force and they just do their job and no one cares. Stop bringing it up and do your job.

If someone asks let them know your gay and there need not be any other further discussion.

Whatever you do, don't use it for preferential treatment - that'll get you no where.

[Monty77]

Gaypilot's identity is revealed:

Sunday Times (this coming Sunday, 2009)

Ginger Gay Bloke tells all:

"They were brutal. I had to share a room AND WEAR MATCHING OUTFITS with the other guys, who were quite sweet, especially the one from a shagfest called Sleaford."

GGB, in an exclusive to the Daily Pinko Commie Faggot went on to say,"I can't believe their brutality. They made me leave my pet love hamster at the Main Gate with a big nasty man called a SWO. Well, what's all that about? The gingers were put in a separate herding area and uniformed men threw stuff at them, egged on by posh people on horses.

This would not happen in Islington.

You're doing this because I'm ginger, not gay, isn't it?

Too right, you gwar ******.

Better get used to it, it's worse than any playground you've come from, but if you're a good bloke, batty boy or not, you will, er, see the world at least. And that's a promise. (world=afghanistan). Watch out for ladies who explode.

[cornish-stormrider]

BEADWINDOW BEADWINDOW BEADWINDOW

NO DUFF (MAYBE)

Rumour Control report dtg 1711,2025,08 ish.

This thread was started by the Black Omega Mob to weed out undesireables. Visits are about to be carried out with interesting interrogation methods. You will confess your sins.

If (and it is a big if) this thread is pukka my opinion is along the lines of keep it a low profile, anyone with unusual personality traits etc gets stomped on. I hold similar views to AA, in that there is no need to announce it.

As to the rest of 'em, who cares what a buch of bigots who don't know you yet think....

I much prefer to meet someone or argue with them online before I make a snap judgement.

[x213a]

I'll see that beadwindow-04 and raise a zip-lip!

[Dan Winterland]

Zip lip!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/undefeated_auction/smab19_leather_mask_eye_cover_mouth_zip_3.jpg

[andrewmcharlton]

Ginger hair, I think you might want to go pink rather than be a gin-ger !

You have to draw the line somewhere.

[Ogre]

Slight tangent, I used to work with a bloke who was ex-REME, and we used to swap stories and moans all the time. I started greeting him in the morning as "Grunt" and he would reply "Crab". One morning he called me "Fairy" as he'd found out that aircraft avionics techs were always refered to as Fairies, and promptly got a talking to by the boss! We both had to explain to the boss that no, it wasn't homophobic, discriminatory etc.
It's just banter and I am proud to have been a fairy, even if I have to explain it to people.

[BEagle]

After 'Pink Wednesday', it was no longer the case that homosexuality was considered unacceptable in the Armed Forces. Harrassment or discrimination against people for their sexual orientation would not be tolerated.

However, you cannot reasonably expect people to change their attitudes overnight. Many of us will never consider homosexuality to be in any way 'normal', so if you openly flaunt your sexuality don't be surprised if you quickly become very unpopular.

[fade to grey]

Good luck gai pilot,
I hope you make it !Simple answer is don't be overt and don't be covert - don't hide it but don't flout it.

I have no issue working with gays, I do however have issue with the term 'homophobia' - a phobia is an irrational fear which does not apply as a description of someone's sexuality.

[parabellum]

"However, you cannot reasonably expect people to change their attitudes overnight. Many of us will never consider homosexuality to be in any way 'normal', so if you openly flaunt your sexuality don't be surprised if you quickly become very unpopular."

When I joined up we were told, in the first week, very forcefully, that just in case we didn't already know or hadn't previously shared military accommodation and facilities before, that anyone caught in a homosexual act, of any sort, would get a very swift DCM followed by six months in Colchester and a dishonourable discharge, (no pun intended). That ruling remained throughout my time in the service and the reasoning remains with me today.
Highly probable that GaiPilot is a wind up, possibly already front seat of something very fast, but if not then I get the impression he has come on here to announce himself rather than to genuinely seek advice, in which case he is already setting off on the wrong foot as yes, he is flaunting his sexuality, who needs that?

[Point0Five]

Shesh, that's a bit harsh!

After all, I thought the entire British public school system was founded on buggery... it's a national institution :ok:

[Point0Five]

Oh, and for what it's worth: a complete non-issue in the ADF.

Be straight. Be gay. Just don't be a knob. :)

[teeteringhead]

entire British public school system was founded on buggery .... aren't you thinking of the RN?

Rum, bum and baccy and all that? But I s'pose rum and baccy are non-PC now, so that only leaves ........:eek:

teeters (Grammar school oik! :ok:)

Edited to conform with the BEaglemeister's prejudices! (see next post)

[BEagle]

Grammar school oik, surely?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

There appears to be very many prejudices still left in the RAF amongst front line aircrew and I do wonder how many of you actually are Aircrew. Perhaps the Military Aircrew section should be retitled to something a little more appropriate.

Attitude...very important for all pilots and a "must know" to survive, particularly if you wish to be a military pilot. My gut feeling is that you are not suitable to be a commisioned officer because you place your sexuality before your aspirational desire to fly as a Military Pilot.
The majority of posters on this thread are serving or retired aircrew and you would be foolish in the extreme to dismiss their advice or be upset by the banter. Matters not to me, I'm long since gone from that world, but for your sake Gai (if you exist) grow up!:=

[Airborne Aircrew]

http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/defensecuts.jpg

[Training Risky]

Crikey there are some real hand-wringing liberals on this thread, trying so hard to show how modern and 'inclusive' they are and bemoaning the 'bigotry' in the RAF... GET OVER YOURSELVES!

The British military is one of the most monitored, equality and diversity-educated, constantly assessed organisations in the public sector. There is no hiding place for bigotry, sexism,racism, ageism..whatever ism you feel offended by this week. In fact, the most oppressed and overlooked demographic is the WASP middle-class males - who is always represented in the 'Harrassment' pamphlets and DVDs as the oppressor? White males!

The RAF as a organisation has always accepted people on the basis of their ability, I mean come on, how much effort do we go to in order to provide sabbaticals, maternity leave, flexi-time, free travel warrants for minority events (Gay Pride as an example - so where was my ticket to Miss World???) So touting yourself as GaiPilot implies that you demand special treatment based on your sexuality and you are looking to be defined as such.

Have a word.:=

[Firestorm]

if you think that your homosexuality is so important go and work for stonewall or some such organisation: if you think that being a pilot is more important then just get on with it.

[Vox Populi]

Crikey there are some real hand-wringing liberals on this thread, trying so hard to show how modern and 'inclusive' they are and bemoaning the 'bigotry' in the RAF... GET OVER YOURSELVES!


I'm amused that you read this thread and felt it to be populated by liberals...

[Training Risky]

I did say 'some' liberals... like the poster responsible for this little nugget:

Why the hell should you hide who you are just to please the idiotic bigotry that is clearly alive and well in the RAF?...The RAF is about 30 or 40 years behind the rest of society when it comes to social attitudes and in some respects it still (along with the other services, to a lesser extent in my experience) serves as a haven for the socially inadequate, where they can maintain their "old-fashioned", or as I would call it, offensive, attitudes and beliefs.

Just because a large part of British society has gone to the dogs (anarchy, drugs, emo kids, X-Factor etc) doesn't mean the RAF should follow.

(And someone please shoot the idiot who first said "This is the 21st Century you know!!!" As if some arbitrary milestone on the Gregorian calendar implies that a certain organisation/method/society should change...:ugh:)

[Taxi2parking]

..as always, if ever we find ourselves facing a difficult moral question in our lives; Bill Hicks has the answer.....YouTube - Bill Hicks- Gays in the Military (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6_b-72H3E)

[endplay]

Should this thread not be a "Stickey?"

IGMC

[tonker]

YouTube - I'm Alan Partridge - Bangkok Ladyboys (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNzLBTCEDI)

:O

[MarkD]

While there has been a lot of talk above about "flaunting" and its general undesirability, perhaps someone would like to address one of the specific questions GP asked:
What is going to happen when I turn up with my partner for a social function in the Officers Mess?Does this count as flaunting?

[TheInquisitor]

You are also protected by law

There is no law that will protect you from being a knobber. And whether you are deemed to be a knobber or not is firmly in the court of public (ie your colleagues') opinion. As has already been said, get on with the job, be 'one of the lads' and nobody will care about your sexuality. Make a fuss, or start quoting any of the above at anybody, and it will become a problem.

While there has been a lot of talk above about "flaunting" and its general undesirability, perhaps someone would like to address one of the specific questions GP asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaiPilot
What is going to happen when I turn up with my partner for a social function in the Officers Mess?

Does this count as flaunting?

Already addressed. Don't do it. Or, at least, show some sensitivity to those who may be uncomfortable with it. Making a bee-line straight for the Staish and loudly introducing him as your 'life partner', ensuring that all around you can hear and see, is simply attention seeking and WOULD count as 'flaunting', IMHO. Discretely introducing your partner, when it is your turn to do so, in the normal fashion any of us would, shouldn't present any issues.

Maybe he could join the wives club.......bitching at coffee mornings, mess flowers, etc...:E

[Trojan1981]

Why does this thread continue??? Who cares? Join and find out what it's like you t:mad:er!

[Pontius Navigator]

Yeah Trojan, good name is happens :), this thread's become a right real PITA.

[8-15fromOdium]

Mark D wrote: While there has been a lot of talk above about "flaunting" and its general undesirability, perhaps someone would like to address one of the specific questions GP asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaiPilot
What is going to happen when I turn up with my partner for a social function in the Officers Mess?

Does this count as flaunting?


This already happens, it is not an issue.

[Clockwork Mouse]

WHAT'S WITH THE OLDIE BASHING?

As well as the inevitable gay bashing, there has been a bit of oldie bashing on this thread. For instance, Nostrinian's: "GP, youve probably sussed out by now alot of these guys are actually old and their service days long gone".

In the last 15 to 20 years the Armed Services have changed their rules and standards to accommodate the views of a civil society which is becoming increasingly liberal and which these days has very little concept of what armed service actually involves. These rules vary from legal jurisdiction, health and safety to personal moral standards. I believe that many of the changes were inevitable, some even necessary, but some have created serious personnel problems and arguably weakened the Services operational effectiveness. For example, the Human Rights Act. Captured pirates cannot be sent back to whatever authorities can be found in Somalia, in case they are subject to harsh treatment. That would contravene the British Human Rights Act, for Heaven’s sake.

Older, more senior serving personnel are probably more aware of the changes than the younger, and in many cases are disturbed and disheartened by their effects, so may not embrace the new rules with much enthusiasm. But do not characterise the old and bold dismissively as sitting in the corner of the mess smelling of wee and waiting for retirement. They have seen harsh service, loyally done their duty and spilled their blood for their countrymen when called upon to do so.

[parabellum]

Very well said Clockwork. I had been crafting something far less erudite, suffice to say, old and now out of the service perhaps, but we still have a very fair idea of how the 'system' today works.

[Flap62]

Well it's been a while since anyone added to the 74 posts that say -

People are more interested in your ability than sexuality blah, don't flaunt it blah, I knows lots and it isn't a problem blah.

Can anyone post more of the above or shall I just go and cut and paste before posting a meaningless reply that says exactly what 74 other posts say?

[Firestorm]

One of the nice things about the rules in the old days was that homosexuals couldn't make an issue out of their sexuality, but just had to get on with the job of being an officer in their service. I don't doubt that I served with a few, and I know of some who were most definitely homosexual, but they couldn't make a thing of it: they were judged on their ability in the role, and whether they were any fun on a run ashore.

Mr Gaipilot: have you got the message yet?

[PPRuNeUser0139]

‘Ere, this thread..

What's wrong with it?

I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. It’s dead, that's what's wrong with it!

No, no, it’s uh,...it’s resting.

Look, matey, I know a dead thread when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

No no it’s not dead, it’s, it’s restin'!

All right then, if it’s restin', I'll wake it up! (shouting at the screen) 'Ello, Mister GaiPilot! I've got a lovely pink flying suit for you if you show...
(hits the cage) There, he moved!

No, he didn't, that was you hitting the screen!

I never!!

Yes, you did!

I never, never did anything...

(yelling and hitting the screen repeatedly) 'ELLO Mister GaiPilot!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(takes screen off stand and thumps it against the desk. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.) Now that's what I call a dead thread.

No, no.....No, it’s stunned!

STUNNED?!?

Yeah! You stunned it, just as it was wakin' up! Gay pilot threads stun easily, major.

Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That thread is definitely deceased, and when I first looked at it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged flaunt.

Well, it’s...it’s, ah...probably pining for the fjords.

PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did it fall flat on its back the moment I got it on the screen?

The GaiPilot prefers keepin' on its back! Remarkable creature, id'nit, squire? Lovely plumage!

Look, I took the liberty of examining that thread when I first called it up, and I discovered the only reason that it was still there was that it had been NAILED there.

(pause)

Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that thread down, it would have been off and shot up into the long, delirious, burning blue with a VOOM!

"VOOM"?!? Mate, this thread wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! It’s bleedin' demised!

No no! It’s pining!

This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! (oo-er, missus!) Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the screen it’d be pushing up the daisies! It's kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibule!! THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!

Well, I s’pose I'd better delete it, then.

[diginagain]

Nice one, Centurion.

[Airborne Aircrew]

3 bladed:

Sounds to me like your a bit of a philatelist.:=

[Wader2]

WHAT'S WITH THE OLDIE BASHING?

Older, more senior serving personnel are probably more aware of the changes than the younger, and in many cases are disturbed and disheartened by their effects, so may not embrace the new rules with much enthusiasm.

You mentioned health and safety amongst others. I may suggest that the even older serving personnel may see the benefits of some of these changes where the less old do not.

We have had an increasingly robust health and safety regime for more than 20 years but it is the younger elements that are invincible and inclined to take risks. Older heads can see these risks and decide when the risk is acceptable - on operations or saving life perhaps - and when they are not, during training or exercises for instance.

Moving to the female issue, a retired policeman opined that a policewoman on the beat removed two policemen on the ground. Without the policewoman you may have had two policemen. With a policewoman she was more likely to be injured and the policeman was more inclined to render assistance to her than to act independently.

To the OP, the older hands have seen the effect, or rather lack of effect, and can accept change. It is the younger, Sun reader, where gay-bashing and homophobia exist where it can still be an issue.

As long as you pull your weight then no probs. If you try and play a minority card then you will lose all respect.

[LowObservable]

Look out, Major.... There's a
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Edwards2005/Highlights/Mig15From1oClock_1.jpg
on your six!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Oooo; you bitch!

[South Bound]

Interesting thread (ignoring all the tosh). I know someone that went to Gay Pride and realised that the lifestyle they wanted was not compatible with the Service. They left. To go the other way is interesting. I don't see why we should not recruit from all parts of society, just interesting that recruiting at what is a fairly flamboyant and in-your-face event might give people the wrong impression that every base will have a gay club.

In my experience (3 gay chums, 2 of which I would be happy to go to war with, one turned into a bit of a joke of his own making), those who get on with their jobs and are good at them are respected as such. Screaming queens tend to get frowned upon.

I don't see introducing your partner as provocation, depends how it is done. Do it the same way as everyone else is introducing wives/girlfriends (don't rush to the front) and if Mrs Staish takes offence then she is not worth knowing.

IMO.

[Re-Heat]

to ask if I should openly say that I am a stamp collector to my new work colleagues?
Is this a euphemism for some perversion that has yet to become generally recognised...:E

Unquestionably straight myself, but do know many of other persuasions. Those who are friends of mine are normal people: they do not stand out or wear their sexuality as a badge. The same goes for friends of mine who are straight as well.

In fact, those friends of mine who are not straight do more for the values of commitment, fidelity and partnership than a large number of straight people that I know. Consequently, aside from the religious point, I cannot for the life of me see any objection to gay marriage or civil partnership whatsoever.

Moving back to military life: those of you who think the military outdated in attitude to gays really have neither experienced life in some other businesses nor travelled widely enough outside the UK...

[D O Guerrero]

Nicely put South Bound.

[Pontius Navigator]

The MiG-15 entered VVS service in early 1949, with the USSR announcing its existence to the West with 45 MiG-15s overflying Moscow during the May Day parade of that year. It was assigned the NATO codename of "Fagot", meaning a "bundle of wood for burning" -- not "Faggot", an insulting comment on its sexual orientation and a common misspelling of the codename







.




.

[cockney steve]

Actually, P.N. according to my Concise OED, either spelling is acceptable and also applies to a dish of chopped, baked Liver. (peas 'n faggots)

reverting to the thread, when i was young, I was taught "discretion is the better part of valour"....entirely apposite.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Sounds to me like your a bit of a philatelist.

Sounds to me like there's a bit too much licking involved...


Harumph!



Rustles the Times and retires back to corner.

[im from uranus]

Slight thread drift, Gemma Atkinson has just got engaged to Marcus Bent!:}
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/05/article-0-022CCFD100000578-498_468x610.jpg
Nice Uniform!:ok:

[albatross]

" im from uranus "
What an unfortunate choice of a "Nom du Plume" as pertains to this thread.:E

[im from uranus]

Ermmmm. Yeah, see what you mean.:eek:

It didn't even cross my mind!!

[Wensleydale]

I was a stamp collector once, but my Boss gave me an exchange of Frank Views.

:{

[diginagain]

Me too, but I had to give it up when I got posted.

[Il Duce]

Excuuuuuuuuse me! Gaipilot, aren't you being a bit presumptious in assuming that the Station Commander will be a bloke and have a wife. Haven't you considered the possibility that your Station Commander might be a woman? She may, like you, be gay; possibly straight or even completely celibate in any direction and not give a tinker's cuss if you are straight, listing to port or spiral. What if your Station Commander is a bloke, gay and takes an instant dislike to you because he is deeply jealous of your life partner?
Behave like a %uckwit and people will treat you with the contempt you deserve - being a gay %uckwit won't make much difference.

[tonker]

I wish the "Jaguar the mighty cat,discuss" thread would start again, i,m bored of this.

Gay or straight nobody likes a show off.

[Whaaa newark]

I don't understand.

How can anyone be gay now-a-days. Not when there is JPA, the new imprest system, no descent dets and to top it all off you've got the credit crunch.

NO I am definitely not gay, in fact it would be safe to say I am definitely on a bit of a downer!

[Wensleydale]

I think that I am a lesbian trapped inside a man's body. I saw a video once and there was nothing that those girls were doing that I wouldn't have done.......:bored:

[Airborne Aircrew]

I saw a video once and there was nothing that those girls were doing that I wouldn't have done.......

You cook and clean??? That's woman's work!!! :}

[airborne_artist]

While we are on the subject of sex, has the RAF decided that relations between officers and ORs are in fact normal? I recall a very severe CO RNEFTS at Leeming telling us that under no circumstances were we to "step out" with WAAF ORs.

Didn't stop Midshipman ****** from enjoying the simultaneous and highly intimate attention of two WAAF stewards at about 0500 after a course leaving bash :E

[Airborne Aircrew]

While we are on the subject of sex, has the RAF decided that relations between officers and ORs are in fact normal?They always have been "normal". The problem with them is that they are extremely inconvenient in so far as the "other half" that is the OR get's to see what a bunch of choppers some of their leaders are when they've had a shandy or two when they have to be allowed into the OM for a mess function. :rolleyes:

I had a mate that a few here probably know that was stationed at Odiham with me. He met a very nice young lady who, unfortunately, was an officer nurse in Aldershot. In the end there was no choice but to throw one of the two perfectly good careers out of the window because of this little inconvenience. Sue chose to pitch her career... Sucked really...:(

Andy, if your about and reading this, PM me...:ok:

[Wader2]

There was a WRAF fg off who brought a J/T to the Summer Ball. He was very proper, DJ and all. Later she said she did not realise that it was infra dig as no one had mentioned it at Cranditz.

It was the mess staff that complained and as a result a whole new lesson was added at IOT.:}

[airborne_artist]

In the Dark Blue it was quite acceptable, and if an officer wanted to take a Jenny Wren to a Wardroom function, she had to go to see the OC WRNS beforehand to be told how to behave and not to tell all her muckers how their leaders behaved during/after the meal. Which of course they all followed to the letter ;)

[Army Mover]

The PO Wren Reg who worked for me was married to an officer submariner; she never had any problems from the Navy attending formal functions or sorting out his admin for him when he was away; the Navy seemed to have a more mature understanding of these things than the Army.

[Wensleydale]

I was told of the story about a JO who was engaged to an airwoman... All very discrete and above board. That is until he wrote to the PMC asking for permission to bring his fiancee as his guest to the Summer Ball. Unfortunately, the airwoman worked directly for the PMC, and the said Wg Cdr refused permission.

This upset the JO, so with fiancee permission, he drove into town and hired two lady "escorts" for the night who, with great pleasure, he introduced to the PMC and his party during the evening - casually mentioning the lady's occupations and that he had brought them along for company as he had been denied his true lady for the evening. I do not know the outcome, but I imagine a fun "next day" was had by all.

[Airborne Aircrew]

WD:

See, that's quality that is... :D:D:D

[TMJ]

Slight tangent, I used to work with a bloke who was ex-REME, and we used to swap stories and moans all the time. I started greeting him in the morning as "Grunt" and he would reply "Crab". One morning he called me "Fairy" as he'd found out that aircraft avionics techs were always refered to as Fairies, and promptly got a talking to by the boss! We both had to explain to the boss that no, it wasn't homophobic, discriminatory etc.
It's just banter and I am proud to have been a fairy, even if I have to explain it to people.


Good job you weren't a lecky, or said boss may have called the RSPCA...

[Pontius Navigator]

WD,

At Waddo there was a member of aircrew some 40 years ago, and who is still on the go, who married a telephonist. The system was so obstructive that even after she left the RAF she never set foot in the Mess.

[parabellum]

I think GaiPilot should take his 'partner for life' with him into the RAF, after all, why would he want to leave his friends behind?:E

[LowObservable]

I knew that Round the Horne was missing a scriptwriter...

[exscribbler]

"Ooh, hello! I'm Julian and this is my friend Sandy!" :ok:

[TheInquisitor]

At Waddo there was a member of aircrew some 40 years ago, and who is still on the go, who married a telephonist

...did they get engaged first?.....:E

Hat, coat, taxi....

[Toxteth O'Grady]

No but I bet she had a few hang-ups....:eek:

Boom-boom.

:cool:

TOG

[diginagain]

Did they exchange rings?

[The Oberon]

Did she use his dictaphone, or just her finger like anyone else ?

[FJJP]

I recently left after 37 years driving various airframes around the skies. My philosophy [and that of most of my friends and aquaintences] was simple - I don't care about your religion, colour, sexuality or politics - just don't shove it in my face and demand that I accept it. If you told me that you were gay I would probably avoid you like the plague - not because of the sexual aspect, but because you obviously have a big issue with it if you want to talk about it. And thereafter it would colour my perception of everything you say or do. That's just the way it is. Tough. And I venture to suggest that a sizeable chunk of those serving feel the same way. I am sure I served alongside some that were homosexual - they just didn't announce it.

Shoving it in your face would include introducing your partner to the Station Commander and his wife. Since he has attained that rank and position, he has been in for some years - long before the acceptance of homosexuality was foist upon the Forces - and he may well feel embarrased. Not the thing to do to your Commanding Officer. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

The only sensible way to deal with this is to keep your mouth shut and get on with life. You will be accepted as the person you appear to be.

If you want to go on a gay crusade, don't join the Forces.

[Roguedent]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. On topic with this thread, I am a 21 Yr old Hermaphrodite on the verge of joining the RAF as a Pilot. I am due to start IOT soon. I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am an Hermaphrodite to my new work colleagues. If I make it to the front line as a single seat Hermaphrodite Pilot, which is my hope, what sort of attitude do you think I could expect from a very male orientated profession? Is there still a very much an anti Hermaphrodite attitude or will I be accepted for who I am. I am very much looking forward to the training, maybe not so much the initial 30 odd weeks at IOT, but once I start flying it will be my dream come true.:eek:

[GaiPilot]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. On topic with this thread, I am a 21 Yr old Hermaphrodite on the verge of joining the RAF as a Pilot. I am due to start IOT soon. I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am an Hermaphrodite to my new work colleagues. If I make it to the front line as a single seat Hermaphrodite Pilot, which is my hope, what sort of attitude do you think I could expect from a very male orientated profession? Is there still a very much an anti Hermaphrodite attitude or will I be accepted for who I am. I am very much looking forward to the training, maybe not so much the initial 30 odd weeks at IOT, but once I start flying it will be my dream come true.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

You are just the type of person amongst many others on this forum I am hoping not to meet once I get to a Sqaudron.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. On topic with this thread, I am a 21 Yr old Hermaphrodite on the verge of joining the RAF as a Pilot. I am due to start IOT soon. I would like to take some of your time to ask if I should openly say that I am an Hermaphrodite to my new work colleagues. If I make it to the front line as a single seat Hermaphrodite Pilot, which is my hope, what sort of attitude do you think I could expect from a very male orientated profession? Is there still a very much an anti Hermaphrodite attitude or will I be accepted for who I am. I am very much looking forward to the training, maybe not so much the initial 30 odd weeks at IOT, but once I start flying it will be my dream come true.

If we tell you to go f*** yourself, can we watch?:}

[TheInquisitor]

You are just the type of person amongst many others on this forum I am hoping not to meet once I get to a Sqaudron.

...then I think you're going to be sorely disappointed, me old - you're not going to get the choice. The onus is on you to fit in with the organisation; if you can't do that you ain't gonna last long. Gay or straight, that kind of attitude smacks of arrogance in the extreme and will have you out the door in no time.

The boys and girls need to be able to trust you with their lives - if they feel your agenda lies anywhere other than 100% dedication to the job, even to the detriment of self, then that trust will not develop.

I predict you will not even last beyond the first 'black Friday' on IOT.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gai, life is like that. Away from Brighton some people even read the Sun. The law may say one thing, some people may agree with the law, some people may not. One thing legislation cannot do (yet) is change the brain.

In uniform, or at work, or in the mess, the law may reign. In peoples' minds what they think is up to them.

Nothing to do with this issue but someone I used to work with, I would make him a coffee and smile but at the same time think cn*t. Another was too selfish to be a b!tch but in her case there was no legislation that said I had to smile at her - fat is no illegal yet.

Get the idea?

[brakedwell]

You are just the type of person amongst many others on this forum I am hoping not to meet once I get to a Sqaudron.

No chance of that mate, you'll be the only member of the Sqaudron, unless you improve your spelling skills.

[pshakey]

Brakedwell,

Sorry dude but those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

At least learn to spell Squadron before criticizing somebody else's speellung! :ok:

[brakedwell]

Brakedwell,

Sorry dude but those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

At least learn to spell Squadron before criticizing somebody else's speellung!

pshakey

A Squadron has pilots. I say again - our friend won't meet any on a Sqaudron . Got it? :ugh::ugh:

[JessTheDog]

In answer to the first post:

From my experience, no-one cares about sexual orientation. I remember when the bar on "homosexuals" was lifted, and the outrage bus never left the depot - limited to a few splutterings into the Telegraph from the long-retired, I suspect. There may be a knee-jerk to the RAF and MoD going overboard on PC-ness, with people at Pride marches etc. There is no reason at all why gay personnel should not be able to take partners to the Mess or to be open about their private life. There is a caveat: making an extensive issue of any subject of deeply-held personal belief - from gay rights to politics and religion - will quickly turn anyone into the Mess bore. There are probably exceptions to this - flying, drinking and unit sports - but these can be boring as well.

[ZH875]

You are just the type of person amongst many others on this forum I am hoping not to meet once I get to a Sqaudron.

I would be more than happy to work alongside the vast majority of military Ppruners, as they are NORMAL people. (whether or not they would want to work with me is a different matter)

NORMAL does not mean not gay, it simply means that they have a job to do and will do that job to the best of their ability, and will muck in as a team to get that job done. When the job is done, banter will prevail, both bad and evil.

However, GAI bloke, best you make friends with Patsy Palm and her five sisters, because with your attitude, they are all the friends you will have.

Grow up, forget about being gay, hetero or a bicycle, just be a person who gives all and you would get on a lot better.

[Whenurhappy]

I often pass a few hours in the office surfing PPrune - it occasionally makes me chuckle, even spill my coffee - but the level of predjudice and hate that has been spat out in this thread takes the biscuit, cup and saucer. An honest enquiry was made by a young person who is not only keen to serve in HM Forces but has been selected for one of the best jobs in the world (rivalling being OC Base Support Wing). We should be encouraging this young man and not launching crude invective at him because of the way he is - or wishes to be.

For those who are no longer serving, just accept that the RAF has changed. Inter alia, we are dropping bombs and fighting wars at a level of intensity not seen since WWII. Gone are the days of happy hours, 98,000 strong RAF, the 'Mally' on some tax-free German Base, global route trainers, RAF Gan, and a whole host of predjudices.

Give this guy - and the Service you claim to know and love - a break.


WP

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I am sure there are websites with that sort of material on, but then again I am sure you are well aware of them and have them stored in your favourites. Idiot.

Sense of humour bypass went all right then I see....:rolleyes:

[Training Risky]

the level of predjudice and hate that has been spat out in this thread

Dry your eyes. Don't forget, this is an anonymous internet forum. It's what goes on in the real RAF which is important...and you can be assured that there is NO hiding place for predjudices as Equality and Diversity training and monitoring have done away with that.

An honest enquiry was made by a young person who is not only keen to serve in HM Forces

So why does he feel the need to label himself from the outset as Homosexual and seek to be defined as such...Is your username 'StraightPilot/Blunty/etc'?

He is obviously preparing for his trip on the Discrimination bus, next stop: employment tribunal, compensation and tabloid headlines.

[Wader2]

A professional response from a former IOT instructor was a simple shrug of the shoulders. Nothing out of the ordinary introducing partner to Mrs Staish either.

Full stop

[Ten West]

That's assuming that GaiPilot actually exists, and is not (as some, myself included, have ventured to suggest) merely a wind-up to provoke some activity on a quiet day. :hmm:

I've found this thread very entertaining personally. Although I didn't get the "Fagot" reference.
I took the red star on the MiG to mean "Bandit" :O

[Wader2]

10W, clearly too young and hansome :)

The entry in [1.0] The Mikoyan MiG-15 (http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig15_1.html) sources still seem more reluctant to use the NATO codename for the MiG-15 than they are with other Soviet aircraft.

[scottyhs]

Gai a homosexual lad recently graduated from IOT, Overall a fairly decent chap who im sure will do his job well. However, The fact that at the end of term 1 he decided to "ram it down everyones throats" so to speak (excuse the expression) got people thinking a little differently about him. By acting the only gay in CHOM bar and being generally more camp than a scouts tent on nights out he found his circle of friends to soon rapidly reduce in size.

Take from the above what you will...

[3 bladed beast]

''You are just the type of person amongst many others on this forum I am hoping not to meet once I get to a Sqaudron.''

Surely that shoud be IF you get to a Squadron!!!!!!!!!!!?

[Bertie Thruster]

best you make friends with Patsy Palm and her five sisters, because with your attitude, they are all the friends you will have.

...wouldn't that be Peter Palm, in this instance......and his five brothers......

[sisemen]

A professional response from a former IOT instructor was a simple shrug of the shoulders

As another former IOT instructor I would have to say that if Gai (GAI = DCIs and if that's not a clue as to the fact that this is a wind up then call me Bender) fronted up to me with his "in your face" attitude, then I would be preparing his chop report right from that point. However, if he proved that he could fit in without being a gay militant then I would be prepared to ameliorate my position.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Half the posts in this thread should end in http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/fishing.gif... and the other half in :ugh:...

Get a grip ladies... You know who you are... :rolleyes:

[ZH875]

...wouldn't that be Peter Palm, in this instance......and his five brothers......


I wouldn't know........


Thanks GAIpilot for you PM, next time just delete it before sending it, as my inbox is not subject to PC fluffiness.:eek:

[Luke Darkstar]

GaiPilot,

you received a lot of useful answers and hints here. And I would like to add one more.
I am civil pilot and worked together with quite a lot of homosexual pilots. You would be surprised how many there are. And they are all doing fine, without any exception.

But ALL of them have/had one thing in common: None made a big deal about it - at least not in the beginning. Of course later everyone knew about it and people sometimes ask "well, how is your partner doing" or something like this.

Well, you will agree - somehow you realize if your workmate is homosexual or not, most of the time. You can say by the way he talks, he behaves and so on, at least most of the time. You might not have to tell them. Just act professionally and stick to your job. For confirmation: I am absolutely liberal and openminded.

In your place I would be careful in the beginning. Don't push it. Just do one step after the other and finish your training first. You will then see how people are dealing with certain topics, how things are going there. And later on people surely will get used to a male-mate who is just showing up with a "husband" instead of a wife. As long as you are gentle with it and not provocative. Maybe the commander's wife as well as your future mates will find it rather interesting once they have the chance to make a self-chosen approach to you.
And sure soon you will know who you can trust and when you better have to keep your mouth shut. You will have mates with whom you can talk in an open way.

But for the moment: make sure for yourself if you are mentally fit for a surrounding like this. The RAF surely is not only a bunch of well-trained tough men in uniforms - you will need a certain spirit to cope with them and their assignment. Last but not least when RAF members here in this thread talk about some "banter" you surely will have to bear. Well, have fun...
Then, if you can surely say "yes", just concentrate on your training in the beginning. Later things will solve on their own, I am sure.

And I am sorry for my rather bad English, it is not my mother tongue.

[The Masked Geek]

What's a Gay? :confused:

[Twon]

I and a few of my family serve in the RAF. One of them recently "outed" himself as he thought he needed to let us all know but he was worried about our reaction. Most of us responded with "we already knew; you can dance and have fashion sense!" He was quite relieved that the response was just "banter".

I also work with a young lady who is in a civil partnership. Other than finding out through her arrival interview, she doesn't discuss her partner or sexuality any more or less than her heterosexual colleagues.

The point is, let people find out through getting to know you rather than announcing it, particularly out of the blue or in new company. Many wont care either way unless you have already tried to make it an issue. In that case, as a previous poster mentioned, it becomes about your personality rather than sexuality.

[Tim McLelland]

Some interesting stuff here and as a card-carrying homo, I'll throw-in my two penneth...

I agree entirely that there is no need for anyone to proverbially shove their sexual preferences down everyone's throats (*insert cheap jokes as appropriate*). Ultimately it's nobody else's business what one's sexual preference might be. But at the same time, it's quite offensive to keep pushing this notion that a gay man or woman should somehow be obliged to introduce his sexuality slowly to others, or avoid mentioning it, so that the heterosexuals can tolerate it. Why on earth should anybody - gay or straight - be expected to tailor his behaviour to suit the expectations and preconceptions of other people? It's quite absurd.

Okay, I'm not saying that every gay member of the armed forces should be wearing pink and carrying a rainbow flag, but they should be entitled to simply behave like everyone else. This means that if they want to introduce their partner to others then they should be able to do that without having to consider what reaction it might cause. It's the age-old issue of equality. Naturally, no straight man would pause for even a second to worry about whether he should mention his partner, or if he saw some girl on TV he fancied, or any other matter which underlined his heterosexuality. So by comparison, no gay person should be expected to act any differently. This isn't to suggest that they should be parading their sexuality somehow, but at the same time this is a long way from this slightly offensive notion that they should have to stop and consider all their thoughts, comments and actions before proceeding. Why should they? I don't expect any heterosexual man to moderate his actions or comments, so it seems only reasonable that the reverse should also apply.

It's probably very difficult for most heterosexual men and women to understand that from a homo's viewpoint, it's depressing to have to spend one's life continually evaluating situations so that one can establish whether one's sexuality is going to be an issue. Okay, some of us just don't do that and we leave it to other people to either like us or hate us, but lots of gay people just aren't that open about their lives. And why? Because they think they wll stand out from the crowd. This is the fundamental problem for gay people in the armed forces. It's not actually about sexuality at all - it's about fitting-in.

As long as the old gay jokes and banter continue - no matter how harmless and good-natured it may be, then people (not all, bust most) will be reluctant to be completely open about their lives. It's very sad, because it discourages countless very able men and women from joining the forces. It's certainly true that most people don't even see the gay/straight thing as an issue any more, but there is still an established attitude and social order that reveals itself through jokes and comments, which discourages gay men and women from regarding their sexuality as a non-issue. But things are changing very gradually, and I'm sure that with sufficient time, even the endless gay jokes will no longer even seem funny, and we will inevitably reach a stage where everybody wonders what on Earth all the fuss was about!

Sadly, fear it will be later rather than sooner. Just when I think that everybody is finally "over it" I walked into a bar only last week to actually hear someone mutter "backs against the wall lads" ... I thought that line had disappeared with the last 1970's sitcom but it seems not! In some ways it is quite funny though because you could bet that (based on even the most pessimistic statistics) at least a couple of the "lads" in question would also have been homos even though they choose not to say so. The irony is often quite comical, especially the hilarious notion that every straight man is somehow sexually attractive to any gay man. I never quite worked-out where that bizarre notion came from! I find such matters quite amusing but spare a thought for others (especially younger gay people who might be thinking of joining the forces) who might not have the same outlook. They are no better or no worse than anybody else. Whatever they get up to in the privacy of their bedrooms is nobody else's business and let's be frank about this - some of the goings-on in straight people's bedrooms are probably much more colourful! :)

[PingDit]

^^^^^^^^
What he said.
:D

[sisemen]

Tim while I agree with much of what you have posted I think that the issue at heart here is the notion of the original poster putting out a deliberate challenge.

He's actually wanting to provoke the kind of reaction that underlines all the irrational phobias on the subject. And it's that kind of attitude which will get him and others of a similar ilk (ie provactive activists not homosexuals) an extremely bad name.

He's already saying to the world that he's not going to fit in and the rest of the world will have to dance to his tune. That's fine and dandy but go and do it somewhere where attitudes like that can be tolerated (and coped with) more easily.

As I said in an earlier post - as an ex IOT flt cdr if he had fronted me on day one with that kind of attitude I would be writing him up for the chop.

Still think that the whole thing is a wind-up

[Jackonicko]

Tim,

You're absolutely and completely right on one thing, old chum.

And that is that it's absolutely not about sexuality and that it is all about 'fitting in'. And just as you'd need to keep radical political opinions to yourself in the forces, or your deeply held belief in scientology, so too you may need to hide your gay light under a bit of a bushel.

The forces are inherently conservative (with a small c) and rely very heavily on an unusually high degree of cameraderie and cohesiveness. The successful soldier, sailor or airman should therefore be cautious about 'pushing' any unusual or contentious side of their personality or beliefs (even though this 'side' might be unexceptionable in civil life), and should introduce it to his colleagues carefully, or should avoid mentioning it, so that he can be sure that his colleagues can tolerate it. It's not about sexuality, but because the forces represent a unique environment (where you may be placing your life in the hands of your colleagues and vice versa) it is fair to expect the individual to "tailor his behaviour to suit the expectations and preconceptions of other people."

As Siseman says, there's no place in the forces for someone whose attitude is that he is: "not going to fit in and the rest of the world will have to dance to his tune."

That's fine and dandy for journos and civvies like us, but not in the forces.

A quiet, straightforward, non pushy gay man who wants to fit in and serve will be an asset to a squadron, as would a quiet scientologist or a former member of the Socialist Worker's Party. It's all about fitting in and serving Queen, Country, Service and Unit, and not one's own narrow self interest.

Enjoyed your Vulcan tome, by the way.

[Tim McLelland]

I would agree that although "banner waving" might be a useful tactic for us poofs in the right place at the right time, there's probably little point in adopting this kind of attitude within the armed forces, as it inevitably creates even more polarisations of attitude. It is indeed a case of fitting-in, and there is no reason why a gay man (or woman) should not be regarded as just the same as any other serving member of the forces - because they are the same of course. My only concern is when some people suggest (as they have on this thread) that a gay man should be obliged to "introduce" his sexuality as if it's some sort of dark secret which can only be revealed gently, to the right people. Clearly, this kind of attitude only serves to foster the notion that being gay is either somehow wrong or even unusual, and I think it's fundamentally important that every effort is made to avoid falling into this trap.

As long as this kind of attitude is maintained (either intentionally or otherwise) there will always be problems surrounding the gay issue. The whole problem is never going to go away until we reach a stage where being gay or straight isn't even worthy of comment. I'm sure the armed forces will get to that stage eventually, and then we can forget about all this nonsense and move-on to more important matters! But suggesting that anyone should have to adjust his actions or behaviour in order for others to "tolerate" it, is quite absurd. Likewise, the I'm here and I'm queer - get used to it attitude is just as bad, as it also simply serves to suggest that being gay is somehow unusual. Either way, it's a bad idea.

Ultimately, I think the armed forces will simply adjust to the whole gay issue over time. It's inevitable that more and more openly gay people will gradually trickle into the services, and as this happens, straight people will change their perceptions until the whole issue is just too mundane to even think about. I suspect it will take quite a long time but it will happen.

Glad you liked the Vulcan book Jacko. Lightning book is slowly following-on!:)

[BEagle]

Tolerance is one thing, acceptance quite another......

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the two are synonymous.

[sikeano]

So Gai pilot, are you still keen to join the RAF
After reading Nine pages, I am hooked into this to find out the end result
I may have to give Eastenders a miss tonight just to get the latest from this forum :cool:

[Tim McLelland]

Tolerance is one thing, acceptance quite another

I agree Beagle, the two things are certainly not the same. Striving for tolerance is both pointless and vaguely insulting. It's not as if I (or any of my queer comrades) regard ourselves as being candidates for tolerance, as that simply goes back to what said previously about fostering the notion that being gay is somehow wrong, or even unusual, which it cleary isn't - it's just a fact of life, rather like the colour of one's eyes. Acceptance is the key, and I'm sure that it will take a very long time for everyone (especially in the forces) to finally accept and understand that there are some facts of life that simply need to be accepted. Then we can finally move on. But we're getting there slowly and it's a gradual but inevitable process. In all fairness I think the armed forces have now done everything they can to wipe-out any overt homophobia and bigotry, so we're only left with the task of persuading the remaining die-hards that we're just normal people, the same as everybody else, but with a preference for people of the same sex, just like they have a preference for people of the opposite sex. That's all there is to it, and all the other "baggage" is purely in the minds of fools, religous bigots and (some) media!

[goudie]

but with a preference for people of the same sex, just like they have a preference for people of the opposite sex. That's all there is to it,

Tim, the 'that's all there is to it' is an over simplification. Some people, rightly or wrongly find some homosexual practices repugnant. I'm not judging just stating a fact.
These are the people who, whilst tolerating homosexuality, will never accept it. Their choice.

[MaxReheat]

Tolerance is one thing, acceptance quite another......

and before you know it, what was tolerated has to be accepted (often enforced by law). It is an insidious process.

[Pontius Navigator]

it's just like they have a preference for . . . That's all there is to it, and all the other "baggage" is purely in the minds of fools, religous bigots and (some) media!

I have chopped a bit out for a reason.

We were on a conference, had a meal, few beers etc, and our 'leader' (but not to the toilet) was ready to head for the pole dancing club. Two of us decided that we would take the taxi with him and then push on back to the hotel.

He might have been p!ssed off at being abandoned but he would have had a free taxi ride.

Baggage? Maybe. Fools or bigots? No. We simply did not want to do what he was doing nor hear about it afterwards.

Anyway it was closed. :ok: Chapel you know.

[RETDPI]

Pontious:
Agreed.
I think I have witnessed a great deal more social embarrassment over the years from OTT strident "hetero" posturing and pandering in company, than ever from the other persuasion.
Also, almost always, a case of "empty vessels....." when it came down to actual success rates.

[A2QFI]

Tim said, as part of a long and well written post:-

"Okay, I'm not saying that every gay member of the armed forces should be wearing pink and carrying a rainbow flag, but they should be entitled to simply behave like everyone else."

That is the problem - they can't behave like everyone else because they aren't like everyone else!

[Tim McLelland]

Some interesting comments there:-

Goudie - I agree that some people will never accept homosexuality. But thankfully, it's a simple fact of life that sooner or later they'll all be dead. In many respects, homophobia is a generational matter which will ultimately disappear. But I quite agree that you can't force anybody to accept anything. It's more a case of creating a proverbially level playing field where gay people are no longer the victims of prejudice, so that even the most bigoted of people might finally recognise gay people for what they are - people. As I said previously, I think the armed forces have done all they can do in this respect now, so it's simply a case of leaving things as they are, until attitudes and perceptions change - which they inevitably will (they already have of course).

Max - I think perhaps you're misinterpreting the definition of acceptance? As I've said, it's impossible to force anybody to accept anything. However, when necessary, of course it's important that some things are forcibly tolerated, although as I've also said, the term "tolerate" is slightly inappropriate for the reasons I mentioned. I presume you wouldn't say that we "tolerate" black people would you?

Pontious - I think I'd be agreeing with you! I don't think I would have wanted to accompany anyone to a pole dancing club either, or hear about it afterwards! But this does prompt me to mention that the connection is continually made between homosexuality and sexual practise. I really, honestly, don't get this. Being gay has only one meaning - a sexual preference for a person of the same gender. Everything else, including every prejudice, dark mental image or media-fed belief, is purely in one's mind. It's quite absurd to embark upon any view of supposed sexual activities based on the person's sexual preference. What makes someone think that a straight person's activities are any less bizarre or repugnant? What makes someone think that the gay person you're looking at doesn't prefer a cup of tea to swinging from the chandaliers? It's nonsensical. As ever, homosexuality has "baggage" attached to the term which shouldn't be there. The media and religion have encouraged it to stick.

A2QFI - What a completely absurd thing to say. How on Earth is a gay person not the same as a straight person? Does he have an extra limb or something?!The comical aspect of that comment is that I can safely guarantee that you've probably met, talked-to and socialised with more gay people than you'll ever realise. Presumably, on the basis of your comment, you should have been able to spot the fact that they were/are gay though? Of course you didn't have a clue, nor should you have. That's the point!:)

[cockney steve]

Tim, I have to take issue with you.

I am hetero-male. I have shared living with Homosexuals of both genders and also had a close (non-sexual! ) relationship with a Transsexual.....so I think I'm qualified to chip in.

Biologically, the male and female of a species are designed to couple, pass seed and reproduce....THAT IS WHAT THE ULTIMATE REASON IS, FOR PHYSICAL EXISTENCE ON THIS MORTAL COIL.

Same-sex coupling is abnormal-common, yes, normal, no.

I have taken no offence when a male has got a bit "too friendly"...."sorry mate , I bat for the other side" is all that's needed....no offence taken by either party.

I lived with a partner for over 15 years, we had 3 kids....the odd person is still taken-aback to find we never divorced BECAUSE WE NEVER MARRIED.

Our circumstances were not an issue,even friends who were privy to the fact initially treated the news with scepticism.

DISCRETION is the key, We never "pushed" our (lack of ) marital status and were accepted as a married couple.

Overtly gay "in your face" acquaintances who have "trusted2 me enough to "confide" their leanings, have been met with a hugely dramatic "WELL, I'd never have guessed!....well, actually , if you were any butcher, you'd be wearing a striped apron/ any more camp you'd be wearing a skirt" usually gets it across.

It's COMMON, NOT NORMAL....DON'T make it an issue and I won't.

and, yes, Queers/lesbians/blacks/cockneys /jocks etc. are all a target for a joke.

[Tim McLelland]

I'm compelled to point-out that unless you're graced with access to some higher authority than the rest of us, I think you'll find that nobody (including the Church) has a clue as to why we're all here on this bizarre little planet. However I'd like to think (or at least hope) that our ultimate purpose is something rather more significant than simply reproducing! How pointless and depressing would that be if it were true?!

[off centre]

How pointless and depressing would that be if it were true?!

We do do irony well, don't we?

[A2QFI]

Tim - I was not suggesting or implying a physical difference between gays and others - I was suggesting that it is in the mind. If there is no difference, why do gays have perfectly reasonable and justified laws in place to protect t?em from verbal abuse and discrimination of any kind. No ofence is committed if I am called a 4 eyed Hetero SFAIK. If you really think we are all the same we shall have to agree to differ!

[Tim McLelland]

Because it's a perceived difference, not a real one. Bit like racism.:)

[parabellum]

"Bit like racism"

And on that note, Tim, your entire argument, well presented though it may be, falls apart. There is absolutely no connection between homosexuality/homophobia and racism, not even a little thread.

[The Masked Geek]

Biologically, the male and female of a species are designed to couple, pass seed and reproduce....THAT IS WHAT THE ULTIMATE REASON IS, FOR PHYSICAL EXISTENCE ON THIS MORTAL COIL.

Same-sex coupling is abnormal-common, yes, normal, no.

To take this to the extreme to make a point:

Some people are attracted to the opposite sex - normal.

Some people are attracted to something else - be it animals, children, inanimate objects (one woman famously married the Berlin wall and got off on rubbing herself against it), the same sex, etc. - not the norm.

Now, before you go on to rant about peadophiles being sick and repulsive, it was not long ago that homosexuals were thought of as the same and, whilst I don't see opinion on peadophiles changing any time soon (and I'm not in favour of it changing) you can surely see that some sexual preferences are away from the norm and, therefore, deemed abnormal.

Afterall, a peadophile could live their life on the right side of the law and commit no abuse against children. Should their views be accepted as normal? Should they be accepted as just people or should we still maintain a "healthy" distrust of them?

As for the armed forces, most of us older members joined in a time where it was preached that to be homosexual was wrong and have lived through most of our careers supporting this view. It will take a little more than a cry for acceptance to change these views.

Personally, I tolerate homosexuals and have been on the receiving end of the attentions of a rather persistant one who also insisted on running around the bar singing "Heeey, I'm a queer" at the top of his voice. I almost got to the point of decking the fecker but decided to introduce him to my wife instead. He finally got the message.

[Tim McLelland]

it was preached that to be homosexual was wrong

Exactly - preached... as if by preaching something it means it's right when of course it was/is simply poisonous nonsense. Some people are attracted to the opposite sex - normal. Likewise, some people are attracted to the same sex - normal. How commonplace does something have to be before it becomes normal? Just because society suffers from fashion trends, it's a bit much to be expected to be classed as "abnormal" depending on what beliefs and attitudes happen to be in vogue at any given time!

The old argument about people having a fetish for children, animals and many other bizarre subjects is an old and rather specious one. Obviously, there have always been some (but not many) people with their own bizarre fetishes but we're not talking about that. We're talking about homosexuality which, even by the most pessimistic of statistics, applies to at least ten percent of the population. It's probably fair to say that it applies to many more but while there's social pressure to reinforce the notion that homosexuality is uncommon (and therefore abnormal), you'd be surprised at the numbers of people who claim to be heterosexual and who are patently not - at least not exclusively. You probably wouldn't believe me I guess, but if you ever spent some time talking to people such as health workers who encounter all kinds of people and circumstances, you'd know that the world is full of people who fit neatly into the gay or bisexual category - but either avoid saying so, or try to convince themselves that they don't. But I digress - the point is that you really can't say that a human condition which applies to so many people - and has always done - is somehow abnormal. It's a contradition in terms. Trying to connect homosexuality to beastaility or paedophilia is just cheap and rather old. Even the newspapers have dropped that kind of rubbish!

I understand what you're saying and I'm sure that you think that by claiming to "tolerate" homosexuality, you're being very reasonable and liberal. But I (and many others like me) don't want you or anyone else to "tolerate" us. We'd just like you to accept that just like some people are straight, some are gay and leave it at that! I don't have any need to "tolerate" straight people so I really can't see why there's any need for anyone to do the opposite. Surely we can just accept that we are who we are and we're born how we are, and get on with our lives? I've heard lots of stories about people who (like yourself) claim to have endured the advances of a gay man but so what? I presume you've also endured the advances of a few girls too? So what's the difference? I would imagine that you're more than able to politely decline?! The implication is that gay men are all predatory wierdos and no straight man can feel comfortable in their presence. Of course it's nonsense - it's no different to being in the presence of a woman, unless you seriously believe that it's somehow okay for the odd girl to fancy you, but not so much as one gay man?

your entire argument, well presented though it may be, falls apart. There is absolutely no connection between homosexuality/homophobia and racism, not even a little thread.

Well I'm inclined to point-out that simply making this statement doesn't necessarily mean it's true! Of course there's a connection, in fact it's exactly the same. I'm no more able to change my sexual preference than a black guy can change the colour of his skin. It's not a lifestyle choice that one picks out of a magazine. You presumably wouldn't have any issues with the concept of working with, or being freinds with a black, Chinese, disabled or any other categorised person you might care to think of, so why on Earth do you suppose there should be some sort of exception for gay people?

It's quite funny that some (okay not all) people have some truly odd preconceptions and beliefs about the whole gay issue and I'm convinced it has has absolutely nothing to do with one's honest beliefs and attitudes. Ultimately it's down to upbringing, social conditioning, and - in quite a few cases - personal sexual issues which tend to contaminate one's views of others. It's encouraging to note that there are very many (particularly younger) straight men who have absolutely no issues with gay people at all. They're happy to work with gay people, be good friends with them, share showers if necessary (eek!), share beds even (and no I don't mean for sex), and so on, and be completely open about themselves, their lives, even their sex lives, without any need for worries about whether the person they're with might be gay or not. Any why? Because they've grown-up without all the old "baggage" being imposed upon them and they're secure with their own sexuality - and so they don't have any issues with anybody else's. That's how it should be. The armed forces have (finally - and with more than a little encouragement from their British and European political masters) done a great deal to stop all the situations where prejudice and social "bullying" placed gay people in very difficult situations. Now all that is left to do is to wait until the whole issue finally drifts away - which it inevitably will do in time. I accept that us poofs will always be the victims of cheap jokes and banter but that's fine - it's no different to being picked-on for being ginger or being a fat b*stard! I just hope or wish that the remaining "diehards" would try to understand that we're not wierd, not predatory rapists, and not even uncommon. It's a pity that some people can't carry "gaydar" detectors in their pockets - I think they'd be quite astonished if they even had a clue just how many gay people they do interact with, and don't even know it!:)

[Twon]

Tim,

You make some valid points but the discussion has digressed. The original post wanted to debate the method of introducing themselves/partner/sexuality to others on joining. and how they might be perceived. Many have offered their advice, which is to tread softly, not carefully, when "announcing" their sexuality.

This advice is not the same a saying you should conceal anything or modify your behaviour but is simply a matter of manners and protocol. I would not dream of introducing my wife to the CO's wife by saying 'I'd like to introduce my big-norked wife; can you tell I'm hetero yet?'. Likewise, I wouldn't expect anyone to announce they are gay but follow protocol and just introduce their boyfriend or life partner for what they are: ' Mrs Staish, I'd like to introduce you to Steve, my partner' would suffice. She will also follow protocol and respond with something like 'nice to meet you Steve', thus life goes on as normal without any conflict/disagreement/pink beret burning from CHOM roof.

Most have taken offence or bitten at the implication that there will automatically be any resistance and/or homophobic attitude. The answer is, don't make an issue of it; no announcements (or would it be pronouncments?) and no fuss, just be yourself. If anyone asks about girlfriends or a wife, then obviously it will need to be answered but nearly all on here seem to be saying "DO NOT ANNOUNCE YOUR SEXUALITY THE MOMENT YOU ARRIVE AT CRANWELL"; it is not officer-like behaviour.

[Wader2]

Digressing, anyone remember the grannie grabbing competitions? Do they still go on?

[Tim McLelland]

I agree with your comments Twon. Likewise, I think you do get the impression that some people would still prefer some sort of stipulation that new arrivals at Cranwell should somehow avoid announcing their sexual preferences unless questioned on the subject. That's all well and good, providing the person in question isn't going to feel obliged to hide his partner away (if he has one) until everybody else graciously decides that it's appropriate! I'm tempted to cringe at the very mention of terms like "Officer-like behaviour" when I consider what this sometimes translates into. Some of the more entrenched homophobes would probably collapse with shock!:p

[brickhistory]

I'm tempted to cringe at the very mention of terms like "Officer-like behaviour" when I consider what this sometimes translates into.

Again, remind everyone of your military experience and qualification to judge what it is or is not to be an officer?

But you feel free to remark on "Officer-like behaviour."

Noted.

[sikeano]

All the Gai Pilot (Allegdley) wanted was to join the RAF, to serve our great nation. 10 Pages of discussion, we still dont know if this person wants to serve in the forces
:E

[Tim McLelland]

I'm sure your note has been noted Brick. I trust you'll take note of that:D

[Shack37]

The thread originator has not posted since Nov.23rd. Having succeeded in kicking off this debate but failing to make it as heated as he had perhaps hoped, has he now retired to observe? Or does he continue to post under another name?

:E

s37

[Airborne Aircrew]

Being gay has only one meaning - a sexual preference for a person of the same gender. Everything else, including every prejudice, dark mental image or media-fed belief, is purely in one's mind.Not true I'm afraid and, apart from those who chose to use their religion as a battering ram to provide their moral compass rather than their brain, it's clear there are two "sorts" of gay. There's the sort of gay I served with in the early 80's on II Squadron who was a good soldier, tough, stolid and somewhat reserved who I would chose to have fight alongside me at any time who, unfortunately, died of AIDS a few years later that was caught through unprotected homosexual activity, (RIP Tash). He was, (in forces terms), the acceptable gay.

Then there's the flamboyant, (often known as "screaming" gay), with the penchant for redecorating, who likes to touch those he talks to and invade their space while seemingly oblivious to the discomfort he causes, who delights in being subtly outrageous and, again, making those around him uncomfortable and who makes it clear to everyone that his sexuality is nothing but that he, absolutely, mustn't be made to feel different or discriminated against. He's the unacceptable gay because he uses his sexuality as a weapon to keep those around him under a level of control.

If GaiPilot were not a troll, (which I still maintain he is), he would undoubtedly fall into the latter category simply because he is already preparing himself. Tim, you sound like the former category and good on you, but you need to accept that within your "society", just like in hetero "society" that people are different and while you are clearly predisposed to show favour to "your own" and dis-favour to "us" the hetero "society" does the same but is less likely to discriminate between the various factions of what is, after all, a relatively small group, (it's easier to paint a small group with the same brush than it is to do so a larger group).

[Tim McLelland]

I quite agree that the kind of behaviour you describe certainly isn't appropriate in the armed forces. Naturally, any sort of inappropriate behaviour, be it gay-related or otherwise shouldn't be tolerated. But as I'm sure you're aware, I'm not defending that kind of attitude. The "we're here and we're queer" rants might be appropriate for demonstrating on the streets, but it's not the kind of thing anyone should expect within a professional fighting force. As I've said repeatedly, the whole gay issue really shouldn't be that much of a big deal - and the responsibility for keeping the matter in some sort of proportion lays with everyone - including us homos!

[Airborne Aircrew]

As I've said repeatedly, the whole gay issue really shouldn't be that much of a big deal

Absolutely. Therefore one must question the motivation of GaiPilot's choice of nom-de-plume and his choice of subject and, I believe, that is why he has received the negative response he has from many. He's clearly the one holding up his sexuality for all to see and, metaphorically, wearing his rainbow.

[BEagle]

OK, some practical advice to Gai...

Prance about flaunting your orientation overtly, and you WILL end up behind the hangar being kicked in the nuts. Count on it. And no-one will ever know who did it.

STFU and get on with IOT, no-one will know or care whether you're normal, homosexual......or whatever.

Deal with it. Or go elsewhere.

Tough, I agree. But that's the way it is.

[An Teallach]

Never mind Gaipilot, things could be worse:

Fudge Packers Given Marching Orders (http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/Fudge-maker-closes-loss-69-jobs-recession-hits-sales/article-543021-detail/article.html)

IGMC :\

[ShyTorque]

STFU and get on with IOT, no-one will know or care whether you're normal, homosexual......or whatever.


All this time to agree with my comment at post #2 :D

[XL319]

I remember a 11sqn dining in night when a fellow colleague announced to his sqn that he was "out" :D He was told 'politely' by the Stn Co that he behaviour was not "officer like behaviour". :}

[Point0Five]

I just hope that all the "old and bolds" are typing this nonsense from their retirement homes, because the notion of bashing somebody behind the hangar for being a fudge packer is just a tad out-dated :rolleyes:

[minigundiplomat]

Shouldn't gays be forced to join the RN. Its more traditional and have you seen the RAF working dress? It clashes with everything!

[An Teallach]

I just hope that all the "old and bolds" are typing this nonsense from their retirement homes, because the notion of bashing somebody behind the hangar for being a fudge packer is just a tad out-dated

Agreed, (who was advocating violence?) but then surely being gay shouldn't imply a complete sense of humour bypass?

[Tim McLelland]

I assume he was referring to Beagle's dark comments about supposedly being kicked "in the nuts" (sic) in the dark recesses of a hangar. I didn't think the comment was even worthy of a reply as it's just the kind of attutude that used to prevail in the 1960's. Next thing he'll be shrugging his shoulders when they start tattooing pink triangles on our gay arms! Needless to say (but go on, I'll say in anyway!) if somebody tried that kind of stunt these days, they would be found out and they'd be out of the services with an assault charge before their feet touched the ground.

I guess it just depends how you look at these things. Having a sense of humour is fine, and from my point-of-view all the nasty comments, sarcasm, cheap jokes and all the rest, don't bother me in the least. Some I find funny, some I find a bit sad, but of course some people might take offense. It's all very well to throw-around terms like "fudge packer" but I wonder if people who use terms like this ever bother to think about what they're saying? The term bears no relation to one's sexuality, it merely hints at a rather graphic image of a particular sexual practise that some gay men might indulge in, although others doubtless do not. Point is, the same sexual act is practised by just as many straight people, as any research or suitably-free conversation will reveal. That's fine; I don't care who does what in the privacy of their bedrooms, but it serves to illustrate how us homos have to constantly endure the Benny Hill-esque jokes, even though they're outdated, vaguely offensive and often entirely inappropriate. Should we claim to be even slightly offended, we get told to "lighten up" and get a sense of humour!

I don't want to sound like a victim not least because I'm not - the more insults I hear, the more I laugh at the idiots who issue them. But in a wider sense, it would be nice if some of the more entrenched homophobes could stop to consider how other people must feel sometimes. They wouldn't like the prospect of living their entire lives with this kind of stigma, and yet we're supposed to shut-up and (if you'll pardon the phrase) "take it like a man"... It's not nice, it's outdated, it's vaguely offensive and, most importantly, it's entirely unnecessary. Think what you like about homosexuality but we are who we are, we don't choose our sexuality no more than anyone chooses the colour of their skin. I entirely agree that the forces are not the place for someone who proposes to make an issue about his sexuality, but at the same time the forces are also not the place to allow this kind of "don't ask and don't tell" rubbish to persist. If that's the kind of attitude that some people expect, then we have a perfect right to expect the straight people to shut-up about their sexuality too. Far better to just grow-up and find another subject to get upset about, methinks.

[bluepilot]

YouTube - Military fairy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_iH1GhM2j8)

inappropriate enough? :E:E

[Tim McLelland]

Old (very old!) but still very funny! The scary thing is that some Youtube users probably think that sketch has just been filmed!

[CirrusF]

To continue the humourous vein, many here will know that 3 para mortar platoon have endlessly been the butt of gay jokes after on of their members was caught sidelining as a rent-boy in the 80s. In best traditions of army humour, the platoon has never lived it down, even to this day. The innuendo even made it into the Bellylarf last year - in a report of a fierce confrontation with the Taliban, some no doubt ex-army staffer at the paper added the line to the bottom of the report:


A member of the mortars' platoon said: "The Taliban took us from the rear and we gave them a good spanking,"


Full article is here:
Paratroopers launch biggest battle in Afghanistan for two years - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2085114/Paratroopers-launch-biggest-battle-in-Afghanistan-for-two-years.html)

[formertonkaplum]

Personally, I can't believe its legal in our country let alone our military.


Not Natural or Normal!

[Tim McLelland]

Bless him, he's doubtless waiting for the responses...:rolleyes:

[L1A2 discharged]

Just don't ask why electricians - and now they are combined the fairy trades, are called DFs.



*fairy in this instance is to be likened to tinkerbell, as they wore white dustcoats and appeared to make faults disappear with the wave of a wand.

[al446]

Maybe it would be nice if some of the more entrenched homophobes could stop to consider how other people must feel sometimes. Unfortunately most phobes of any sort do not take ANY time to consider ANYTHING, they have entrenched views which they don't even think through and consider it their right to spout them. They are called boors. This applies equally to the homophobe as to the racist, a vile species I challenge when I encounter them. I don't think I will ever change them but those looking on may decide that the racist I am challenging cannot put together a cogent case for their views.
Before the flaming happens, my wife agrees.:)

[Visionary]

Mint Sir???

[Tim McLelland]

But then, sometimes it's quite funny to let people like that spew-out their hatred. It's not like it matters. I feel sorry for people who might sometimes feel either intimidated or devalued somehow by nasty remarks or cheap jokes, but sooner or later us poofs inevitably realise that hatred is generated by fear, or as a means of hiding personal issues. It's far better to just let the abuse wash off one's shoulders and laugh loud and long - I find that it annoys these people even more which is kinda gratifying.

It's traditionally been very easy for bigots to hide behind the kind of attitudes and humour that service life encourages but those days are slowly disappearing. People have scoffed at the way in which the forces have made efforts to stamp-out homophobia but believe me, it doesn't seem like such a trivial matter, nor a waste of taxpayer's money, if you happen to sit on the gay side of the fence. They've done a great deal to drag the forces into adopting the fair-minded attitudes that our wider society have now adopted and that's got to be a good thing. The people that think otherwise are entitled to maintain their view but, ultimately, it doesn't matter what they might think. Thankfully, we've moved on and if they choose to remain in the dark ages, then so be it.

[RileyDove]

Tim - the colour of your skin is decided by the genetics of your parents - I don't think someone's sexuality is decided in the same way.

[Kohima]

An interesting read indeed. I'm starting IOT in Jan, might see you there eh?

[Biggus]

In my opinion it is very simple......

Most people in the RAF have an approach to sexuality that is the same as to almost any other subject - we generally don't care what you get up to, but don't want it forced upon us/rammed down our throat (I didn't pick that phrase on purpose - but in the same vein am not going to avoid using it in case I might offend somebody!).

The best similar example would be religion. There are some very religious individuals in the RAF, and that doesn't cause any issues whatsoever. However, if an individual were to try and force his religion on others, try to convert them, or mention it in every second sentence, then they will rapidly find themselves running out of friends. If someone, of whatever persuasion, wishes to make their sexuality an issue, continual subject for debate/discussion, they will rapidly find they no longer have an audience!

[dessert_flyer]

i find it unbelivable that there are still so many bigots in the military, and a lot of whom are supposed to be in positions of responsiblity. I have not only found this on this forum but also in my day to day life within the military. It ranges from racism, homephobia to religion. Surely all this should of been left in days past, we now know better and should do better. Just let people live and let live, and until it impinges on there roles and responsibilities withing the military then it shouldnt be of any interest to anybody else.

[BEagle]

I assume he was referring to Beagle's dark comments about supposedly being kicked "in the nuts" (sic) in the dark recesses of a hangar.

Perhaps I should make it abundantly clear that I neither condone nor support 'queer bashing' (as it was once termed) in any way, shape or form. The point I was making was that if you pi$$ people off too much with your behaviour, you will soon learn the error of your ways. Rough justice, but there it is.

And An T - good to see your dark sense of humour is still alive and well!

[Tim McLelland]

Blimey - well first-off Beagle, I know you weren't advocating anything of that sort. But likewise, I think it would be a bit unfair to suggest that any sort of behaviour would still result in that sort of response. As I said, if it did, the people involved would be out of the forces before their feet touched the ground. I'm sure you'd accept that the RAF isn't a haven for thugs. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the term "rough justice"... the implication is that beating-up someone is somehow justified?

Formatonkaplum - I think we'd best simply ignore him as he has nothing to say other than to issue stupid slogans which are presumably intended to be offensive but simply sound rather funny. The last time I heard the "Arsed Injected Death Sentence" line was just before I left schoul in the late 1970's - brilliant so see a moron like him still using it three decades later!

Riley - maybe you need to get yourself some books or have a chat with a geneticist? One's sexuality is established as being a genetic predisposition - that's been known for many years now so, contrary to your comments, it is precisely like being born black. You don't seriously imagine that anyone would choose to be gay and have to listen to rubbish like this, do you?

[brickhistory]

Before directing anyone to ignore anyone, shouldn't you have the standing to do so?

Admittedly, you are a resident expert on the first part of the thread, but not so much on the "in the RAF" modifier.

Yet you see fit to lecture on proper behavior.

As I'm not in either category, I am puzzled as to why that is.

[Two's in]

Most homophobes are driven by a deep seated fear that they too may have the Gayness within, the louder the protests...well Shakespeare said it better.

As for racism and homophobes, the main connection is fear and ignorance. People who use terms like Darkie, Pakki, Nigger and Spic are generally the owners of room temperature IQ's. To extend that ignorance to Fags and Queers is very easy for them. The dangerous bigots are the very few with brain cells, and they still only have the ability to rabble rouse and inspire the village idiots amongst them (may even be a couple on here).

Airborne Aircrew applied a very good principle to Gays in the Military which gels with my own experiences; get on with your job and your life and you will be accepted for what you are, start acting like some Liberace type parody of Homosexuals and you are headed for trouble.

I feel that Tim McL's ireffutable logic may be troubling for some...

[stellair]

C'mon people.........Gai Pilot......21.......from Brighton.....!

I can't believe people are falling for this ****!

Mr. Gai pilot, When your IOT start date arrives get on the train wearing a tight leather suit, high heels and a pink feather boa then everyone at Grantham station or on that first nervous bus ride to Cranwell and then outside college hall can make up their own minds if it's an issue for them. I wonder what Lord Trenchard would think at the sight of you and your 'partner' strolling hand in hand around his parade square...:E

[Tim McLelland]

Stellair makes a good point! As has been mentioned before, the origins of this thread seem to have been a bit supsect, but no matter - it's still interesting to discuss the wider issues. Have to say, it would indeed be fascinating to know what Trenchard would have made of it all. Still, you can't be certain. Look at Monty...

Just have to add (in case anyone hasn't had the misfortune to encounter this lunatic before) that Brickhistory seems to have some sort of obession with me. Whenever I join a thread, he has to compulsively post a message telling everyone that I'm not a serving member of the armed forces and therefore (according to his logic) I'm not entitled to have a view. He doesn't seem to be bright enough to realise that nobody (apart from him) gives a toss who is in the military and who isn't, and that he's starting to sound a little like a stalker. Hope he hasn't got a room full of my photographs. Wierdo:p

[brickhistory]

No, Tim, no stalker.

Just someone who finds it offensive for one who has never, ever served to feel the need, perhaps even the compulsion, to lecture others who do or have on how they should behave. Add in your insults to or regarding serving officers, and I'm amazed at the hutzpah displayed by you.

Although in the interests of full disclosure (no pun intended) perhaps other will find your 'how to' guide on homosexuality an odd addition to your aviation bibliography.

Discuss aviation or photography and I read your posts with interest. Go into areas of which you know not, and, well, zzzzz...

Those replying in this thread, on both sides of the issue, who are in/have been in offer useful insight into the subject. They are the ones who have to implement/live with/enforce/reject any such policy as directed by their superiors and/or government. You do not. It's easy to carp, not so much to be a part of the situation.

[UpShutter]

Post #219 - The last time I heard the "Arsed Injected Death Sentence" line was just before I left schoul in the late 1970's

Highly unlikely, as the disease "AIDS", the acronym of which the line you mention refers to wasn't identified until 1981. :hmm:

[minigundiplomat]

I had a former boss who was openly gay. Made no difference to his performance as an operator or as boss.

He was ok at both. However he was always well turned out and immaculately groomed.

[An Teallach]

Cheers, Beags but note to self:Think twice before resurrecting old threads with throwaway quips, and threads started by such an obvious troll as Gaipilot at that. I never dreamed it'd kick off another 2 pages of tripe. However, we seem to have smoked out one more dribbling, wide-eyed loon of a self-loathing closet queen.

[goudie]

There was a guy who was openly gay in the company I worked for, who held a middle managemant position. He too was very good at his job and commanded respect from all who knew him. Whenever there was a company 'do', with partners invited, he would turn up with a stunningly attractive female, hired from an escort agency. 'When in Rome'!

[Shack37]

The thread originator has not posted since Nov.23rd. Having succeeded in kicking off this debate but failing to make it as heated as he had perhaps hoped, has he now retired to observe? Or does he continue to post under another name?

http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

s37

AND STILL IT GOES ON!
I suppose it must be important to somebody?

[RileyDove]

Tim- Rather than me getting some books and reading about it.Maybe you should consider looking at both sides of the evidence . There is plenty which suggests that there isn't a gay gene and the fact that someone back in the early 1990's stated that there was doesn't set it in stone. Try search under
'gay gene?' and you might find that the evidence is hugely contradictory.