AW139 proposed for UK Police Air Support Units

[chopper2004]

Any thoughts on AgustaWestland's proposal?

Police Aviation - AgustaWestland looks to UK Police Market for AW139 sales | Shephard Group (http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/651/police-aviation-agustawestland-looks-to-uk-police-market-for-aw139-sales/)

Only issue(s) I can potentially see are the costs and availability of LZs in tight spots. Admittedly, the Japanese police and Chinese police ASUs do have some 139 as well as the Sultan of Oman's police but they operate in bigger areas.

The only force(s) in UK I could see potentially having it are Dyfedd Powys (their AW109E covers a very large area and mountainous) and Strathclyde or Cardiff , where for the latter two forces I guess the 139 could complement the 135 for SWAT and SAR/EMS purposes?

[Hilife]

Being about 3 times the price of an EC135 should kill this idea.

[helimutt]

I thought the same thing. It sounds like a pipe dream to me. Prohibitive cost would rule it out straight away, surely.

[misterbonkers]

SWAT in Wales?!?

[Gypsy_Air]

SWAT in Wales?!?

Oh yes. They're vicious, those sheep...:E

[Ian Corrigible]

'Specially that Harold. He's that most dangerous of creatures, a clever sheep...

:E

I/C

[HeliEng]

I don't think a wheeled undercarriage is the way forward for Police Op's...

[heliski22]

Apart from the minor detail of the dual controls..........

While they are removable, you can't actually take them out because Agusta hasn't yet designed, much less produced the plugs to be fitted when they are out!!!!

Unless, of course, they also want to make police ops two flight crew........

[Helinut]

Hell, if you can afford to pay for and run an AW139, the salary for a second pilot is peanuts. I am not sure, but I suspect that under JAR/EASA rules a second pilot will be mandatory. Basically the UK CAA follow EASA/JAA for state aircraft.

What ought to happen is that a police force or Consortium decides what it wants do with its Air Support. That requirement then enables you to define what sort of aircraft to buy.

In reality, I have yet to see it done that way at all.

An AW139 would give you all sorts of extra capability: whether the police need that is another question.

For a place like D-P, if they had the extra money and the need, the best thing to do could well be to have 2 helicopters based in different parts of their patch, because of its size.

But there are all sorts of other ways to spend more money - you could start by extending operating hours with your existing aircraft, which would be an option for most ASUs.

At the moment though, most ASUs are struggling to maintain their existing budget, never mind get a major increase.

It feels like bad timing to me. A bit like the marketing of the EH101 with its 30+ pax capacity to the offshore market. It became available just at the time that the number of people working on an offshore platform reduced markedly. I am open to correction, but I believe it nver sold any into that market.

[Camp Freddie]

sounds great, more potential jobs, I know someone who can fly one of those !

[timex]

Ah Wastelands in the poo again then...what crap can we fob off on the Govt now then?

[ShyTorque]

I am not sure, but I suspect that under JAR/EASA rules a second pilot will be mandatory.

My understanding of recent rule changes under EASA make two pilots necessary only where the aircraft doesn't meet certain IFR requirements.

Only a few years back police pilots such as Bertie Thruster and I were flying an unstabilised "floppy stick" helicopter single pilot by night, to an unlit base landing site, which was interesting at times, despite both of us being previously trained to fly military unstabilised SE helicopters IFR/IMC. There were some changes requiring at least a SAS not too long ago for police aircraft. IMHO it's a good thing that some of these things are now being introduced.

[The Nr Fairy]

Well, there seems to be a requirement to allow armed police to get to sheep quite quickly:

Trigger-happy Welsh cops taser sheep ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/06/ovine_tasering_shocker/)

[JimL]

Pending EASA rules:

The requirements for two pilots in the EASA Operational Rules are (apparently) substantially the same as the JAR rule (contained in JAR-OPS 3.940(b)(2) and (3)) - i.e a configuration of more than 19 pax or, for IFR, a configuration of more than 9 pax.

A pilot flying SPIFR requires additional training elements and there are minimum qualifications. The helicopter would have to be certificated for flight in IMC and meet the additional requirements for SPIFR.

There is no requirements for two pilots other than that stated above or when required by certification - i.e. there is no requirement related to mass.

Jim

[Helinut]

Perhaps N Wales police should train their police dogs to herd sheep ?

[Flying Bull]

Hi heliski22,

the world is living from changes ;-)
I´m by now used to fly police missions with two pilots - and if you´re flying SWAT-missions, I think its also necessary cause I would like my Co to land in case I catch a bullet, which would not necessary kill me straight away - but would, when I stop flying the bird - or vice versa, I would land the bird when I am the sheduled Co on that mission and my pilot catches a bullet.
Different to GB, in Germany the policepilots are also police officers, so its our job to fight crime and terrorism - which means, that there might arouse the situation, where a hit is not only slightly possible....
We use the EC155 for SWAT-missions, but wouldn´t mind to have a 139 available, which has more payload, hence more possibilities to fit armour and more survivability in case of an engine hit.
It all pays off, if you have successful missions so.

Greetings Flying Bull

[Coconutty]

Never flown in one, but do I remember hearing that other Police Units have previously rejected the aircraft, ( amongst other reasons ) because of the restricted headroom in the rear cabin when compared to the EC135 or MD902 ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Flying Bull]

Hi Coconutty,

which one haven´t you flown?
The EC155 or the AW139?
Don´t mind the headroom in the EC155 - the guys are sitting in the comfy seats until short prior disembarking.
Our 100 kg + SWAT guys haven´t complained yet :ok:

Greeting Flying Bull

YouTube - SEK Einsatz in Paderborn am NRW Tag (26.8.2007) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyG-24x6_jo)

[Droopy]

Coconutty, are you confusing the 139 with the 109?

[Non-PC Plod]

Having some experience of police aviation and of the AW139, I would say that the 139 is a nice aircraft, but massive overkill for 99.5% of UK police aviation missions.
Most of the time, the aircraft is an observation, and command, control and communications platform. Unless things have markedly changed in the last year, the vast majority of UK police forces as a general rule do not do "SWAT". You simply dont need an aircraft that can carry 14/17 people.

Drawbacks -1. size (it wont fit in hangars or on helipads designed for a squirrel or an EC135, and wont be able to get into quite such tight spots for HEMS etc that you could get a 135 in)
2. Cost to buy 3. Cost to run 4. Training Cost.
There is just no way any police unit that cannot afford overtime when an observer or pilot is off sick, and quibbles about travel expenses to attend national training forums is ever going to contemplate taking on the expense of this machine.
It would be great if I am wrong - might get some freelancing in!!:)

[Bravo73]

Adrian Geal of Product Marketing at Agusta Westland said the company saw an opportunity for a larger helicopter to enter the inventory of the UK Police Forces, not necessarily replacing the smaller twin-engined EC-135s, 145s and MD900s currently in service but perhaps instead as a specialised, national fleet of Police or general emergency services aircraft, working alongside.

Geal said: “In the future there may be a requirement for an aircraft that can carry a reasonably-sized anti-terrorism team for example. We don’t see these aircraft replacing the EC145s but operating alongside them.
(My emphasis)

[Coconutty]

Oops -

Aah yes - thanks Droopy - mixing up the 109 ( only one of these in UK Police use ) and the 139 :\ - it was the 109 I recall someone mentioning had the limited headroom....

FB - Sadly - both ! - always amenable to invites though ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Non-PC Plod]

Bravo,

Guess I didnt read the source document very carefully. I'll get my coat now!:}

[Helinut]

You could just leave waging war to the military of course............

That's what they did in the Iranian Embassy siege and it seemed to work pretty well in the circumstances. And I understand that the boys who do that work already have their own helicopters.

A "general emergency services aircraft" is another thing, and might well be a good idea. However, as has been discussed here before, the emergency services are directed from different government departments with different budgets. Very little chance of them working together. Just look at the recent trouble over the few remaining "joint" HEMS-police heles.

Would it be possible to combine a civi SAR role with this super ER aircraft? If there truly was a need for a larger hele for some emergency purpose, wouldn't the SAR heles get used for that anyway?

Sounds like a solution looking for a market to me.

[Clever Richard]

Please see current posts on the 'SAR-H to go' thread for possible availability of some 139s that do not appear suitable for the SAR role. I'm sure if an enterprising Chief Constable was to make an offer......

[anonythemouse]

Would the Adrian Geal geezer from Product Marketing at Augusta Westland be the ex AAC Capt geezer?

[N Arslow]

Would it be a better platform in NI perhaps?