The Fallen

[Tappers Dad]

BBC 2 15 Nov 2008 at 21:05

A powerful and poignant film in which families and friends of those who have died fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq talk openly about their loved ones and their grief. Epic in scale and spanning seven years of war, this landmark three-hour film gives a rare insight into the personal impact and legacy of this loss.

Alongside intimate testimonies from families who have lost loved ones, The Fallen names every single serviceman and woman who has died while serving with the British Armed Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001.

[nigegilb]

TD, just seen you on BBC 10PM News on a momentous day in Afghanistan. BBC Poll suggesting 2/3rds of British people wanting troops out.

Just wanted to say well done for providing the alternative view to the British Govt/MoD.

Anyone who thinks troop withdrawals from Iraq next spring will result in a slackening pace on ops must now realise that once again UK Govt will roll over like a puppy when President Obama pick up the phone to No10 and asks for more troops in Afg.

Britain's Vietnam? How else can you describe it?

[Been There...]

Like this Nige? :( BBC NEWS | UK | Extra UK troops 'for Afghanistan' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7728478.stm)

[Chugalug2]

TD, I too saw your piece on BBC1. I endorse Nigel's comments entirely. Well done as ever, Sir! :D
This war, like most, reminds us of the adage that they are very easy to get into but are very difficult to get out of. This one even started with the hope, not that it might be over by Christmas, but that not a shot might be fired. We all know different now. If the sons and daughters of our political leaders were serving in Afg, there might be less chance of the puppy performing as required!
Thanks for the heads up re BBC2 152105 which I will make sure to watch, TD.

[nigegilb]

Been There, I only just read an account of CDS on Andrew Marr show when he came close to demanding a rest for British troops due to come home from Iraq and for them not to be sent as reinforcements to Afg.

Guess he must have given his Defence Minister a real good listening to after the show.......

Good to see Dannatt getting in on the act, a man who has consistently and without fail, continued to fight for his men.

Ministers must not resort to 'cheap options' on defence, says British Army chief

Ministers must not take "cheap options" when it comes to equipping the Armed Forces to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the head of the British Army warns today.



by Con Coughlin
Last Updated: 11:15PM GMT 13 Nov 2008

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00628/news-graphics-2006-_628044a.jpg Gen Sir Richard Dannatt warns ministers must not take "cheap options" when it comes to equipping the Armed Forces in Iraq and Afghanistan


In an exclusive interview with The Daily Telegraph, General Sir Richard Dannatt says the Government has an "absolute responsibility" to provide the best training and equipment for the British men and women serving on the front line.
"If you are committing young people to battle they have to be given the best, and when circumstances change they have to be given the best again," he said.
His comments came as the Ministry of Defence announced the death of two Royal Marines in southern Afghanistan, taking the British death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan to 300.
Gen Dannatt, who will retire from the Army next year, has been outspoken on defence issues since taking up his post in 2006.
In 2006, he warned that the Army could 'break' if British soldiers were kept too long in Iraq.
And in a leaked report last year, Gen Dannatt warned that years of Government under-funding and overstretch had left troops feeling "devalued, angry and suffering from Iraq fatigue."
With Britain now preparing to withdraw its 4,000 troops from Iraq next year, pressure is mounting - from sources including Barack Obama, the US president-elect -- for more British forces to be sent to Afghanistan.
But Gen Dannatt said that no more British troops should go to Afghanistan, insisting that the Army only has the manpower and resources to fight one foreign war at a time.
"The reason the Army has been under such pressure for the past three years is that we are committed to fighting two wars when we are only structured to fight one," said Gen. Dannatt. "If we were to move troops from Iraq to Afghanistan we would simply replicate the problems."
He said that many improvements had been made in equipping front line troops during the past two years, but serious consideration needed to be given as to whether it was sufficient that only 5 per cent of the government's budget was devoted to defence spending.
"Is the amount the government spends on defence the right proportion?" he asked. "There are no cheap options on defence."

[microlight AV8R]

Heart breaking

Wanted to give up within the first hour, kept watching out of respect to all those named. R.I.P.

If I ever meet Tony Bliar, I will simply ask how on earth he sleeps at night?

To those on ops, stay safe and thankyou.

[Farfrompuken]

Utterly heart-wrenching.

The final 20 seconds were possibly the most powerful.

Lost for any further words.

[Grabbers]

The Fallen was one of the most memorable pieces of TV I've seen. Compelling, honest, yet not cloyingly sentimental. Bravo BBC on this one.
:D:D:D:D

[taxydual]

To quote Nostrinian

Nobody forces us to join, to serve.

Can anyone really argue with that?

To Serve.

There cannot be a more fitting epitaph than those two words.

Proud of The Fallen. You bet I am.

[Chugalug2]

Just finished watching The Fallen, thanks to BBCi at: BBC iPlayer - The Fallen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fpx8g/The_Fallen/)

Long and haunting certainly, but it left me with an uncomfortable feeling also of voyeurism. Is the strained relationship between Bob Chapman's partner and his sister any of my business? Should a teenage girl who admits to finding it difficult talking of her loss to others but much easier talking to her brother at his graveside, then be filmed and recorded doing so? Chappie summed it up for me when she said that many in the media viewed talking to her as just "a job". Crafted though this programme was I felt that it too was "a job", lacking the simple empathy of Ross Kemp's Afghanistan for example. Am I alone in seeing a lot of exploitation of these bereft anguished Mums (and Dads, Sisters, Brothers, Daughters, Sons)? No doubt it will win awards at the Media Navel Contemplating End-of-Season do's. My awards would go for the families, whose courage, tenacity and shear daily coping with their grief is the real remembrance to The Fallen.

[theotherhalf]

I don't think there was exploitation at all. If you don't want to be treated as a job - don't talk to the press. If the families felt they were exploited they did not have to take part. For the most part it was just families lost without their loved ones, having the chance to say how they felt. No-one needed to say anything they did not want to - I know, I took part.
However, I do feel that it put into perspective - for me at least - that I wasn't the only one consumed by loneliness and loss and made me realise that my feelings were not unique even though the man I lost was.
This was a remarkable opportunity not only for us to examine how we felt in a totally different way but also for others to share for a just a moment, what it is like to face such tragedy.
The children involved in this have lost so much and yet their ability to be matter of fact and stoic is an example to us all in how to remember and mourn with dignity and grace.
No, I don't think it was exploitation at all, there will always be a fine line that should not be crossed and in this case I don't think it was.

[chappie]

it's taken till now for me to find a way of saying the right words without offending anyone, and for me to have recovered from what last night brought. like i said in the film, i am not niave enough to ever think that i or Bob are anything more than what is in the diary that day for a journalist, and the platitudes expressed at times are heartfelt, even honest, maybe meant when said, but forgotten about 20 mins up the road. that aside it has been a necessary part of keeping the continuation of failings from the MoD in the public eye, and assist me in helping do all i can to ensure that no one else goes through the hell i have had to endure. my brother, the wonderful man that he was, has gone, but i will always continue for as long as i am able to make sure that those that need to see the impact of their decisions do, and those that still serve have the protection they deserve.
the film had aimed to show the impact of what a life lost in the way they are lost means, and that from being part of the news the fallen are nothing more than a news infil, a statistic, or relegated to an announcement page 13 column 5, 10 lines if you are lucky.
i have mixed feelings about the film and up until 21.05 i was not going to watch it, but found myself sat alone in the kitchen crying like a good un, at times managing to finish the sentences of the other bereaved relatives. in one way it was a help to know that you are not alone in your fear to look in the mirror as you see your brothers eyes staring back at you, or smile your way through yet another kindly intentioned, you look so alike don't you, when inside you are crying. however, there were elements of our lives and how they were portrayed that did not do anything positive either for the individuals concerned and the memory of loved ones lost. in my case alone, a situation that i am forced into and have had to accept, despite tentative inquisitive efforts to see if there could be change failed, was used to demonstrate a point that was not central to the reasons why i agreed to do the film and what i thought was the ethos behind it. that is where the line is crossed and a little intrusive, also i am confident in saying that there was alot more to the coversations had, yet the magic of the editing suite seems to have omitted maybe some of the more pertinent points. we are all on a journey and many of us in different places on that journey, but one thing is for sure, we will never forget, and i for one will always be indebted to those in the armed forces, both past and present. thank you for your sacrifice and thank you for the wonderful work that you do.
finally, tonight, or in the morning, make sure that you give that hug, make it extra tight, or say those words you wanted to say, because never say never..........most importantly live your life to the fullest, laugh the hardest, be thankful for every extra day. i know i am a lucky girl, i had my brother for 38 yrs and it's those memories that i have and cherish. there is no point looking at what i no longer have, but being bloody thankful for what i had when i had the chance....

keep the faith one and all, and take care of you and yours!

[theotherhalf]

I am in the fortunate position of knowing I gave the man I loved the time and attention he needed, wanted and deserved. He returned it 100%. We shared a life that was fulfilled in the way we lived it. I cannot imagine how it must be for those who did not spend that time or have regrets about how it was left when their loved ones departed but I hope they look back and remember the good times. I think this film tried to portray how grief and loss touches every family, very often in similar ways. It is not judgemental and again, whenever you are dealing with a media organisation, never say what you don't want aired. I don't think by next week, many people will be able to remember what was said and I doubt whether this is a film is one which people will watch time and time again because of its emotive content, but I do think it was cathartic for many and maybe will allow healing. Something we all need to do. How you handle grief is up to the individual but I do think that we all need time to stop, and let the wound close. The scar will never go away, nor cease to itch but our lost men and women deserve to have their peace too. They can only get that through us.
To use this commentNo doubt it will win awards at the Media Navel Contemplating End-of-Season do's. is a little churlish and uncalled for and I am not happy that someone can make such a comment when they have not experienced what far to many of us have.

[Al R]

I agree with Chuggers.

Applying exploitative, commercially driven sentiment that is specifically intended to harrow, will result in a counterproductive backlash. Just because some luvvie at the BBC has picked up the Corporate Reponsibility vibe from Tessa Jowell waving that fat cheque and realised that they can enhance their place on the greasy pole, should not mean that it should be leapt at, lemming like. We remember in our own ways, and where is the place in that process that demands we can only do that if we have an camera crew there to record it? Nothing goes out of fashion quicker than fashion and I wish we would rise above this, for 2 reasons. Firstly, long term effectiveness and secondly, good taste.

I am all for good programming which reminds us of the past, and causes us to be respectful. But to show family weeping at new graves is mawkish and I suspect, gets through the editor's meetings because there is a contemporary, political undertone to it. If we want people to learn about those who died in our name, please.. isn't that what history classes at school are for? Why aren't there more moves to enhance exposure on the National Curriculum? Possibly, because its not as glam? ****, sorry - I forgot - schoolkids are to busy being taught by moppish liberals these days about sex and drugs. :ugh:

By taking the issue of 11/11 off the moral mantle it previously held and giving it a short sighted and inneffective HELLO! makeover, we are exposing it to the rigours of commercialism. In 'x' months/years, the public will want to move on. Then what? This whole issue (and by that, I include issues such as Help for heroes) has been handled in a cackhanded manner. We need to take lessons from the Chinese in this - this should be a 100 year project, not a short term sprint. It should be like building a house.. we should still be sucking through our teeth and considering the footings are in sufficiently good order to last a century or more, and not topping out because we're on deadline and a someone is shouting in our earpieces to hurry up.

I don't mean to offend anyone involved, I really don't. I respect totally, your sense of loss, the dignity you show and I can only hazard a guess at how much you must be grieving still.

[theotherhalf]

Whether you meant to offend or not, I suspect that you have. This film was in the making for a very long time. Time enough for people to reflect whether they wanted to be involved or not, time enough to withdraw and certainly nothing personal was used if the family did not wish it to be. I find it difficult to see why so many wish to discredit the film (after watching all of it)? when all you needed to do was switch off. If it offends you - which it seems to do - then why not switch off and keep your own councel, a freedom that these brave men and women and their families have ensured that you have the right to do - just as those who took part had the right to do. Nobody made us make it and nobody made you watch it. Back to freedom of choice I think. Even the making of this film is part of history, good or bad, thats up to the individual but in the end people made their own choices as to take part - or not. To say what they wanted -or not and finally to watch it -or not.
By taking part it made me consider my own position and it has enabled me to move forward, and maybe that act alone allows me finally lay my man to rest.

[Al R]

Other half,

My position was a general one, and not related specifically to this prog. As I said, I was looking at the issue from a more general perspective. This approach towards handling the issue of bereavement and many veterans issues in general is short sighted and will be counter productive.

I am glad that you were helped by it - I dread to think about the tens of thousands of widows and orphans who have had to make do in the past. I am sorry if you are offended - it was (and is not) my intention to have done that and I wish you well moving on and as you continue to heal.

I apologise for being cack handed and insensitive with the tone of my post.

Al

[Chugalug2]

The Other Half; it was not my wish, nor I suspect Al R's, to offend you or anyone else who appeared in this programme or for that matter who chose not to. My critical comments were levelled entirely at those who produced, directed and edited it, and certainly not at those who, like yourself, were its subjects (for despite its title it was those who were left to grieve rather than the Fallen themselves that principally fulfilled that role it seems to me). The testimony that you and others gave was moving and heartfelt, and could not fail to compel. I hope that you believe me when I say that those voices and faces will remain in my mind longer than any detailed analysis of the programme construct itself. If you find my comments regarding the latter "churlish and uncalled for" then I must accept your censure. I note that both you and Chappie say that taking part in it was cathartic in itself, that is something that only those who did so can know, but if that be the case then it was surely worth it for that alone. All I can say is that for my part I am glad that the programme was made, I am glad that I watched it and certainly did not feel the need to switch it off. It just seemed to me to be gratuitously intrusive at times, even exploitative as I have already said. You say robustly that it wasn't, and that as one who took part. You also say that I have "not experienced what far to many of us have". I admit that I have not lost a partner as you have, and can only guess at the loneliness and anguish that it causes. I sympathise, I try to empathise, but as you say I have not experienced it and cannot know. What I do know of is the loss of a parent at a very early age (a father in my case), and totally agree with your comment that:
The children involved in this have lost so much and yet their ability to be matter of fact and stoic is an example to us all in how to remember and mourn with dignity and grace
As for the programme itself, can we just agree to disagree?

[KeepItTidy]

I stayed up will 4 am this morning watching it thanks to Chugs link.

Very powerfull and moving stuff. A nice tribute and very fitting not so long after remembrance day.

:D

[theotherhalf]

There is no need to apologise as you did not offend me. It takes a lot these days to make me that upset. I have lost most of my family now, but my children are fit and healthy and for that I am eternally grateful. I have protected them from so much over the last few years but have had to turn to close and wonderful friends to support me. I miss my mum and dad and wish they were here now but I have to replicate their role for my own children.
Time goes by and if I have realised one thing, it is we learn very little about an awful lot. Sad really but that is human nature. We do things because they seem right at the time - sometimes we cringe later, sometimes breath a sigh of relief but I doubt whether we actually really learn. History shows that, which is why this film is of the moment, and probably the only people who will benefit are those who took part - who knows. Some will say who cares. Well I do and I imagine so will others, but the film was made for a variety of reasons and will be viewed in a variety of ways, yours included as you have the right to do.
Thank you

[Al R]

History shows that, which is why this film is of the moment, and probably the only people who will benefit are those who took part - who knows.

The ones who count. :cool:

When I left my duties as an analyst for a major international defence based aerospace conglomerate, I went into the media. I went from compo coffee to latte in the blink of an eye. I saw at first hand how it hijacks even the most worthy of agenda for its own ends, and when something else comes along, it discards it without thinking. We see how baby P fills the headlines because the media can rant about it in ways it thinks the reader/viewer can assimilate. But it wasn't until last week that the UK g'ment only finally ratified the last Convention on the UN Charter of Children's Rights. I don't know what was more shameful, the fact it took us so long or the fact that it went unreported by a media which already had one eye on the breaking, more 'juicy' Harringay story and didn't want to detract from its focus.

http://www.crae.org.uk/pdfs/Final_CRC_concluding_obs_08.pdf

Rather amusingly, and this related to my particular field, we once had a household name who wrote a column for us. The editor and the publisher both assumed that the other had told the aforesaid household name that his contract wasn't going to be renegotiated and for a few months, as the months wound down, all was blissfully quiet. Until in the final month, when household name read his faxed ghost written column. He rang up and said "Right, umm yes.. ahhh, thats fine. But I don't understand the bit at the end which says I'm now taking a break for the foreseeable future..".

So, although I do understand where you're coming from, and its you and your family that is important, I hope the media is held to account in how it handles the issue of veterans affairs and in remembering those who have died. I hope that editorially, we have someone making sure its not packaged like some docusoap. Its getting that right, which ultimately, is key in winning over the public. I am not anti remembering, I am against any faux aspects of it and your husband (I assume?) is lucky that his children have such a tip top mum to keep things going.

Al.

[Tappers Dad]

The news is very simply that! Something which is new. This was not a news story, all those who had lost loved one's in Iraq and Afghanistan were approached by the film makers. It was explained this film would record ALL those lost in the two wars and not just those "interesting" ones.
I watched the whole 3 hrs and found it normalized my grief. What I and Ben's family are feeling is the same as the others are. Anyone who is familar with the works of Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and her five stages of grief will understand this.(denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance).
The model is perhaps a way of explaining how and why 'time heals', or how 'life goes on'. And as with anything when we know more about what is happening, then dealing with it is usually made a little easier.
This model has no time limit on it, and you may recall some of the families mentioning being in denial or feeling angry and in the one case a mother counting off the years knowing she would be nearer to her own death.

What it showed was these guy's weren't just statistics, they were dad's brother's husband's, partners and above all individuals. Thats what I feel the public will get from it, the story behind the story.

[Al R]

I am loathe to debate it, because I feel that offering my contra perspective will seem like an arguement. I think its 'just' that the public plays its part in understanding the sacrifice that all families have played of those who die in all public service. I think its right because it is if nothing else, a historical record, it helps and it teaches us not to keep making the same old mistakes. So we are of the same accord with that.

I do think that it may be handled better and more effectively. This is too important to be treated as a one off commissioning piece - there does need to be some kind of macroperspective that keeps it in check and in keeping. There are committees up the ying yang right now, coordinating how the media message for the 2012 Games is going to be obtained and maintained. Same as the EU and the House of Windsor, and for that matter, Nike and General Motors (but commercially). In much the same way, so too should the memory of those who fall be cherished with an oversight, and not treated as a one off tick in the box by a meeja careerist, however lovingly and well crafted this particular programme was put together.

[chappie]

Take it from someone who has the to look in the mirror and see those eyes look back at me that what we must take from the film is the magnitude of the loss endured, but what we must celebrate is what we had and for those fortunate to return, have. I inadvertantly watched, for the first time ever, the X factor video and as sickly sentimental it is, it brings home a point, we must concentrate on those alive and left behind and need of our help. after all, apart from allowing those of us left behind to express our grief i thought that the impact of the armed forces, their sacrifice in todays climate, was to be portrayed. even still, as heart wrenching and mixed up it feels to watch the troops come home, be glad and there in end the thread. this film is about many people and how they lost, not just the story of a few, that struck a chord, and in some cases for the wrong reasons. we were affected in different ways by watching the film, as we are affected in different ways by what we lost, be it relative or colleague, nonetheless and hard as it seems it;s time to let them be. let them rest in the peace which they earnt. we, as a forum, will never forget and that for one is good for me.

keep the faith.

[airsound]

As someone who missed the broadcast, and then couldn't get onto a good enough link to download the whole iPlayer version, I was pleased to find that it's going to be broadcast again on BBC 1 on Wed (tomorrow) at 0150. I've set up to record it this time.

Sorry about the late notice.

airsound