5 (AC) Sqn.

[rock_dove]

Hi folks, just a query regarding the make-up of 5 (AC) Sqn. I have gathered so far that the Squadron contains a mix of RAF, Army and I think there is even a couple of RN personnel, but I am unsure as to the roles carried out by some of the different capbadges involved, in particular by the Int Corps element of the Squadron. I assume that they will certainly be involved in the 'ground' element of the detachment, but I would be interested to find out if any of the Mission Crew seats onboard the AC are/can be filled by Int Corps personnel, or is this role fulfilled solely by RAF Int or Wsop bods?

[juliet]

Hi Rock,

This is an honest question from me. Why do you want to know?

Im sure there is an open source answer, probably on the RAF website.

Just interested to know why people want to find out this sort of stuff.

[Pontius Navigator]

With a crew of two pilots and two imagery analysists it would appear likely that there will me many more ground support personnel.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0186CC2A_1143_EC82_2EF2BFFFF37857DA.pdf
It is 5 Mb.

[ORAC]

AW&ST: RAF's New Astor Spy Aircraft Is Ready for Combat (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw101308p1.xml)

.........Each Sentinel aircrew consists of a pilot and copilot on the flight deck and in the mission compartment, a mission coordinator (including retrained RAF navigators and bombardiers and Navy veterans of the AESA-radar-equipped Sea King) and two image analysts (many of them warrant officers and senior NCOs from the Army intelligence corps or RAF imagery analysts). Two more workstations can be added, although for the first operational deployment British planners say they anticipate flying with the basic crew only and concentrating on perfecting baseline tasks.

Due to the aircraft's long endurance but small crew, "Our operators will be required to perform at the top of their game for 12 hr.," Kemsley says. "While there is room for two more [crewmen], we won't routinely carry more than we need."

Part of the answer to manning will be a tactical display for the pilot and copilot that allows them far greater situational awareness through watching the Link 16 picture. Their job will be understanding the air space and threats to the aircraft. They will control all the defensive aids, which include chaff, flares and towed decoys. The flight deck crew can put target tracks onto Link 16 and, as automation lessens the pilots' workload, they may be assigned other mission roles such as off-board communications with strike aircraft pursuing moving ground targets.

Aircrew training constitutes one of the squadron's primary short-term pre-deployment problems.

"I have crewmen that have never worked in an Istar environment," Kemsley says. "Some of the soldiers have never flown while doing their job. There's a rule that when you step into an airplane, you leave half of your brain behind and when you sit down at the console, you lose the other half. Getting to the point where they are operationally viable is my biggest challenge because the system will have to mature around them."

So far, the squadron has about 140 airmen. That includes photo interpreters without ground moving target indicator (GMTI) or synthetic aperture radar experience. It also has approximately 140 soldiers, and to date fewer than 10 seamen with experience operating GMTI radar on helicopters......

[rock_dove]

Thank you for the feedback guys, it is just a general musing I have at the moment as I am joining the Int Corps in January and was interested to find out the role that the Corps has within the Squadron. Juliet, the information given on the RAF website's (certainly the one's I have seen) give no specific information regarding the capbadge/trade of the 2 Imagery Analysts mentioned in the crew breakdown. Though I am sure that buried away somewhere else in jumble of the Interweb there was more accurate detail, I just thought I would try and get the information from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

[Biggus]

I thought the sentinel had serious weight issues - or is that an urban myth?

Anyway, if it does have weight issues, then I can't see the two extra workstations, as quouted in ORACs post, ever being fitted or used!

"....Two more workstations can be added, although for the first operational deployment British planners say they anticipate flying with the basic crew only and concentrating on perfecting baseline tasks.

Due to the aircraft's long endurance but small crew, "Our operators will be required to perform at the top of their game for 12 hr.," Kemsley says. "While there is room for two more [crewmen], we won't routinely carry more than we need."....."

[edp0dc]

As someone with experience of 5sqn, please don't join the corps with 5 as your goal, there are many far better jobs for us green slime. Get a decent OPINT tour under your belt first.

[orgASMic]

please don't join the corps with 5 as your goal

Especially as, at the moment, SENTINEL will be withdrawn from service once we are out of AFG in 2015 under SDSR.

[Mach Two]

It's SUPPOSED to be withdrawn after AFG, but there are hopes that it may have plenty of other uses thereafter. With so many other sensors gone, there may be an argument to hang on to it a while longer.

[orgASMic]

Yes, our PR machine has made lots of noise about who did what on Op ELLAMY, but what will CAS give up to keep the capability? Arguements are just hot air without cash behind them.

[Just This Once...]

The answer lies within the revised RAF Management Plan.

[Mach Two]

Very true, ASM. And, of course, the next SDR may be sooner that expected. Running out of things to give away, rather. Options are being examined, but I guess we shouldn't be too hopeful.

[Wander00]

I've been retired a while but "RAF", "Management" and "Plan" did not usually fit in the same sentence - have things changed?

[Just This Once...]

No, pretty much as you remember it.

[Mach Two]

Ah, yes. The RAFMP. Must get a new copy. The last one was so funny, I almost pi**ed myself laughing.

Anyway. How can we even have a management plan when the basis for all our planning look like this (from the Government's response to the SDSR):

While we acknowledge that the Defence Planning Assumptions in the SDSR serve as a planning tool rather than a set of fixed operational plans or a prediction of precise operations that will be undertaken, we are concerned that as currently applied they suggest that UK Armed Forces will be continually operating at the maximum level envisaged by the Assumptions. This has serious implications. The Government should ensure that sufficient contingency is retained to deal with the unexpected. It is not sufficient to wait for the end of combat operations in Afghanistan at the end of 2014.

It says "Keep the capabilities we may need", but it means "We know you're right, but we can't afford your answer to the question".

[APG63]

It's interesting to compare MPs down the years and see how each revision simply reflects what's actually happening rather than the MP driving what we do.

MACH TWO, agree your last paragraph, but that's what all such documents say!!!

[Lynxman]

Don't forget the other element of 5(AC) Sqn, the Shadows. nothing in SDSR about getting rid of them post Afghan.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Lynxman,

5 don't fly Shadow any more. From the RAF website:

14 Squadron was disbanded on the 1st of June 2011. It was agreed that 14 Squadron’s numberplate should be passed to a new unit in the Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) role. The unit has been operating as part of 5 Squadron at RAF Waddington. The new 14 Squadron, operates the Beechcraft Shadow R1 aircraft.

Duncs:ok:

[Melchett01]

I've been retired a while but "RAF", "Management" and "Plan" did not usually fit in the same sentence - have things changed?

Nope - it's still soft, strong and thoroughly absorbant. Or alternatively, it remains the greatest work of fiction since vows of fidelity were added to the French wedding ceremony.

Take your pick, there are plenty more like those, but they are all a pretty good description of the RAF (Mis)-Management Policy. (For it to be a plan, there would have to be a bit of achievable, coherent, long term thinking behind it. But a series of constant knee-jerk reactions every time someone in the press / Army whinges strikes me as being more of a policy.)

[Tricorn]

Slight thread drift - During a civilian managers course some years ago I remember us all being given a project to look at our own company's mangement plan and assess it. Back at work on the intranet I looked up the RAF Management Plan and it stated 'To be issued'. Made me laugh anyway!!