New Starter - Bristol Aviation??

[Burger81]

Hello to all,

I have been curiosuly looking through lots of different threads to cement my decision on 1) whether to continue in my pursuit of realising my ambition to train to become a pilot at personal expense, 2) who to train with and 3) what route to take.
I recently failed Phase 4 (Fixed 737 Sim assessment) in the CTC Wings Cadet selection. I have however been offered a place on their iCP self financed route. This 1 of a number of offers i have given onto a self financed program where I have been through a testing and interview process.

One of my serious considerations at the minute is Bristol Aviation, who state they can get me to frozen ATPL in just over a year with the majority of training carried out in Port Alfred, South Africa. I haven't heard too much about Bristol Aviation, what I have heard though has been pretty positive.

Has ayone out there done their training with Bristol Aviation and if so, whats your views?

Has anyone else, got any solid information about the training and flying Bristol offer?

Finally, any other advice and information to help me make a sensible head strong decision would be greatly appreciated :bored:

[Aerospace101]

Advice: dont spend a penny on flight training until atleast 2010. Although get the ground school out the way if you want to do something towards your training.

[ali1986]

why not spend a little time in a 737 sim, say with virtual aviation of something who may be able to help you get throught the 737 sim check if you decide to try again with ctc.

Flight Simulator Training - Simulator Assessment Preparation - Virtual Aviation (http://www.virtualaviation.co.uk/training/assessment.html)

[Ronnie1982]

Hello Burger

I’m in a similar situation. I decided not to apply to CTC, (at least their cadet scheme) as there seem to be literally 100s of cadets in the pipeline ahead and CTC can’t place them all; I didn’t fancy spending 75 grand and finding myself at the bottom of their pile. Therefore, I decided to go self funded. I’ve been looking at all the ‘full-time’ courses as well as modular, and have decided that modular is not for me.

That leaves OAA, CTC (their iCP), FTE, Bristol Aviation and Cabair on my list.

I discounted the last one as the reputation is not as good as the others. However, I can’t really find much to differentiate CTC, Bristol, FTE and Oxford; lots of personal bias (comments like ‘I trained there therefore it must be best’). I have found some negative about Oxford in terms of what they promise, and some about CTC in terms of lack of resources; easy to overlook if you are on a sponsored scheme leading to a job, but no so if you are paying your own way. However, my overall impression is that all do a good enough job and the differences are minor and subjective.

Bristol is very attractive financially if you compare it with the others on a like-for-like basis. However, like you I could find out less about them than the others. Therefore, I contacted them direct ([email protected], 01275 467576). This is what I discovered in talking with Bruce, searching on PPRuNe, and talking to ex-students:

·They have been around for decades trading as Bristol Flying Centre, and have an A1 reputation as an IR centre.
·The FTO was bought last year by an Irish plc and re-branded as Bristol Aviation, but is basically still the same.
·Bristol Aviation also took over Sigmar Aviation Training who are a small Irish FTO, and they deliver their Jet Pilot Programme for Sigmar Aviation Training.
·Bristol Aviation also took over Sigmar Aviation who are a flight crew recruitment agency.
·The Professional Pilot Programme is new, but essentially it is the same training as the existing Jet Pilot Programme.
·Bruce can put you in touch with past students of both Bristol Flying Centre and the Jet Pilot Programme, who give very good testimonials; both also come out very positively if you do a PPRuNe search; the training is rated A1, and Port Alfred and Bristol are rated very highly as places to train. There was one critisism about Sigmar Aviation Training and promises they have made to people about placement with CityJet. However, in fairness they all pre-date Bristol Aviation.
·The whole shebang is run by a guy who used to run Oxford and was the founder of CTC, so he has a very good track record.

The approach I took was that every FTO will tell you they are great, but I wanted hard evidence to support that. Bruce seems a pretty straight guy; no hard sell, he was very willing to provide past student contacts, and he invited me down to Bristol to have a look. I must say I’m pretty convinced now; seems at least as good as the other big FTOs, and comes with a 10 grand plus cost saving.

See you in South Africa!

[scott_cardiff]

Hi Burger

I am in a similar situation as you. I am 19 and currently in Retail Management full time after leaving school last year. Have wanted to be a commercial pilot all my life and will do whatever it takes to get myself the role of FO. Had a few flying lessons here and there at Cardiff when time and money allows but nothing serious.

I have now made the decision that it is time to make the move, leave full time work so I won't get bogged down with it and start the ball rolling to get my dream!!

However, currently I am debating on whether to start my training now or wait until the industry picks up. I have researched the big 4 FTO's, OAT; Cabair; FTE and CTC and have booked myself onto a seminar at EPTA Bournemouth this coming Saturday.

Only over the past few weeks have I become aware of Bristol Aviation and I must say it seems very appealing based on what I have read on here and seen on their website. As you have done 'Ronnie1982', I am going to contact the school directly and possibly arrange a visit to see just how it is there. Even better, it is only just across the bridge from me as I am living in Cardiff, so not a great commute :)

I think the best option to us wannabees at present is to get the ATPL ground school done and dusted and then commence flight training when we are sure the industry is on a rise....

Scott

[Burger81]

Aerospace101,

Thanks for the advise. I am willing to take on board all advice given on here, but please can you tell me what you base your advise on.

Thanks

[Burger81]

Ronnie1982,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I have already spoken in some detail with Bruce Bembridge and have actually met him personally. He certainly does come across as a decent guy with no hard sell and definitely very helpful. I also agree that the website and other information i have got, albeit not a huge amount about Bristol Aviation has all been pretty good and with the much cheaper cost is looking like my best option. Obviously, with the industry as it is right now, the last thing i want is to fork out that huge amount of money, only end up on the pile of negative, bitter wannabes that come on here for their daily moan! Timing is the key here. Aerospace101 has advised that 2010 is the magic number, where he gets this from I am not sure, but the way i see it is, if i start my training earlyish next year, its gonna be into 2010 before i am even close to start finding employment, so that would work out right..... I hope :bored:

[Prophead]

Guys, get your PPL first and then do your hour building over the next couple of years. I dont think you could start your ATPL studies until you have your PPL anyway.

Just concentrate on becoming a pilot first and think about being an airline pilot later on when the industry picks up. You will get much more benefit from your hour building if you take your time, fly a few different aircraft and make some decent trips into Europe, rather than just getting it all out the way in a few weeks in one aircraft. This will only make you a better pilot.

The hour building is IMHO one of the most important aspects of flight training and is where you learn to be 'in command'. It is also the part which is most overlooked by people as just being an obsticle to get out the way as quickly and cheaply as possible.

What is the point of having a fresh fATPL with 250 hours if there are no jobs and lots of experienced pilots looking for work. If you have your PPL some decent hours (Dont just stop when you get to 100) the exams out of the way and some money saved then when the industry does pick up your ready to go. A CPL/IR will not take too long and your not going to miss out on anything. You will however have saved money by not having to keep current and be fresh for your sim sessions when you start getting interviews.

Get a PPL, Get a cheap share, get on with the exams and most importantly enjoy the flying. :ok:

[scott_cardiff]

Prophead

Thanks for the advice. I was unsure of whether to do my PPL independantly before enrolling on ATPL studies or not.

I suppose as you said, if the industry is unstable at the moment then do the PPL and enjoy the 'real' flying in the mean time whilst hours building.

I'm not to sure if you can start your ATPL ground studies without a PPL or not, I will look into it.

Looks as if I'll be making a visit to Cardiff soon :ok:

Scott

[fabiensf]

does anyone know whether port alfred is a safe place to live in?

[Dick_Dasterdly]

safe as a nuns knickers!

[Burger81]

Prophead.

Would you advise against doing the integrated training and if the industry still quiet by the time i'm finished, then doing additional hour building with a local flying club, or possibly para jumps etc? I have seen quite a few people on here advising that route! That way, the minute the industry even looks like picking up, i'm there banging on airline doors!!

[bkehoe]

I felt safer in Port Alfred than in some parts of Ireland even ;) It's a lovely place and a fantastic training location, and the training from 43 is top notch.

[Burger81]

bkehoe,

Always good to know its gonna be safe. How long ago did you do your training there? Was it through Bristol Aviaition? Have you got a job yet or still training?

[Prophead]

:ok:I would say (and this is only my opinion) that if you have the cash and no work/family commitments then integrated is an option, however you will still be maintaining your ratings until you find work. This isnt just about keeping legal its about being current and fresh to pass a sim check.

However as i said before the hour building is an important part of the training and some integrated schools tend to treat it as an obstacle to be overcome as cheaply and quickly as possible. This can mean doing the hours in one type of aircraft from one location which to be honest, would get pretty boring and defeats the object of the hour building portion of the training.

The thing i find hard to understand is peoples impatience to get this done. I would have thought that people who want to work as a pilot would have a love of flying. The hour building is the time where you can really enjoy the flying. Shares can be picked up cheaply and the club atmosphere is a big change from the average FTO.

One aspect that is very overlooked is the networking opportunities. Lots of airline/freight/bizjet pilots and management can be found around many of the flying clubs. Many people have been given opportunities due to connections and friendships made at the flying club. You will also hear about many other channels that may be open to you. The commercial flying world does not revolve around Pprune.

My advice would be to fly a few different types, get a tailwheel conversion, get yourself down into Europe (If you get a share you will get used to going over to France for lunch) maybe do some aerobatics. Whatever you do dont stick to one type of flying. The hour building is about turning you into an experienced pilot. Imaging passing your driving test and only driving round the same village for days on end.

If the airlines were recruiting like mad then you might want to get your IR/MCC etc done now but at this time i would advise against it. In the same time and less money than it would take to do an integrated course you could have a CPL IMC ME Maybe even an IR and be logging instrument & twin time on flights into Europe. This is the kind of thing that looks good on the CV. This could all be done whilst working and earning.

Whatever you decide, enjoy it:ok:

[Burger81]

Prophead,

Realistically and at what rate (hours per week) do you think i could go from zero to CPL/IR going down the modular route? The way i see it, is if it takes over 12 months full time training to get the frozen ATPL, then it would take considerably longer trying to fit in self study along with getting the PPL and then hour building along with a full time job and other distractions. Going down the integrated route, it is 100% focus on the training and study. If at the end of this, there is still a struggle to find employment, then this is when i should surely be looking at the flying club option to keep current and hours building?

I am just trying to look at all my otions, so please do not htink i am being a know it all, beacuase i am far from it :rolleyes: I appreciate all the advice given on here :ok:

Thanks

[Prophead]

As i said, everyones circumstances are different. My previos post was just an example of what is possible. It is possible to do modular quicker than integrated and people have. If i were in your position though i would just get the PPL then get a share and just fly as much as possible whilst doing the ATPL's. By the time you have this you will know how the industry is looking. If its picking up then go straight into the IR.

When it does pick up it is not going to happen overnight. There will be lots of experienced pilots from failed airlines before you in the queue. When these start getting picked up in large numbers you know its time to get the IR.

As to how many hours per week, its as many as you can afford. the 100 hours is just a minimum. Any over this is a bonus and will add to your TT. If you get an ME then even better. Just make every hour count by trying to improve your flying each time and setting goals. Try not to pick up bad habits etc.

[fibod]

I fundamentally disagree with you Prophead. I have a lot of experience of training both Integrated Course students and Modular students. You are right in saying that the 100 odd hours building a modular student must complete between the PPL and starting the approved training is important. However, it is extremely rare that DIY, unstructured hours building is of any great benefit to the modular student. Time and time again, student pilots present for their CPL or IR at an approved school and are hopelessly unprepared. This is nothing necessarily to do with their aptitude, rather a result of poor training.

PPL courses are of a very variable standard; those completed in just a few weeks seem to be particularly poor, probably because the skills and procedures learnt are not committed to long-term memory and are forgotten as quickly as they are acquired. Typically, at that point, the student pilot has about 50 hours including about 10 PIC. As the license skill tests on the later approved training will add 5hrs PIC at most, the next 100hrs before one can commence a CPL course have to contain no less than 85hrs PIC. So much of the hours building tends to be unsupervised and unstructured, resulting in inadequately prepared entrants to CPL or IR courses.

In contrast the equivalent phase of an integrated course is structured and supervised and, particularly since the reduction of the SPIC and PIC requirements on an integrated course from 50 and 100 hrs to 20 and 70 hrs respectively, it is much more relevant to the training that will follow.

Yes of course it can be damned good fun charging around the World exercising the privileges of your newly acquired PPL. However, if your objective is to become a professional pilot then get yourself on a professional course, and leave the jollies to the amateurs.

This is not an integrated vs modular rant; you can achieve just the same result on a structured modular course as an integrated course. What it is, is advice to avoid DIY training.

I am no longer an employee of any FTO; I'm semi-retired, working freelance as an examiner, and therefore my advice comes without bias.

So called 'cheaper' modular training can all too often turn out to be much more expensive, because the student has squandered the first 150 hours and then finds them self needed retraining in an hideously expensive environment just as the budget starts to get tight.

Get the foundations right and the more expensive 'advanced' training will go smoothly. Get it wrong and you'll regret it all the way to the bank (oh, I forgot, they don't make loans any more).

And Burger, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, but beware advice on PPRuNe. Some of it is excellent, some based on wide experience, but others have either personal agendas, or limited experience and are trying to justify their own training and career choices without real knowledge of the subject.

Look up sciolist in the dictionary.

Coo, that was a bit of a rant; sorry and Prophead, I'm not having a go at you; I just disagree with your advice, based on considerable experience.

[Eurotraveller]

Without engaging in a debate as to whether now is the right time to train etc etc in response to the original question about BFC/Bristol Aviation; the problem I found when researching this last year is that a person can only give his or her opinion about the schools they have used, and unless their training experience has been particularly fragmented this limits their ability to give an objective opinion.

Keep what I've mentioned above in mind, but I will say that I've just done my IR/CPL with Bristol Aviation and I honestly can't recommend them enough - excellent instructors, aircraft servisability is very good and all the staff genuinely want to get you through first time with the minimum expense, but without compromising training quality which is fantastic. I would recommend giving them a call and arranging a visit if and when you decide to follow the modular training route. The only downside is that BRS is a pain in the arse to get to, but that's not the school's fault. Nice atmosphere too, plus they have a CAA test centre on site which (although not essential) is certainly handy.

Seriously, I was well impressed with them.

[Burger81]

Eurotraveller,

Thank you very much for your post. That is the kind of info i am looking for, although i do take on board everything that people write and appreciate and acknowledge their opinions.

Regards

Mike

[Prophead]

fibod,

If the airlines were recruiting then i would agree with you. A structured hour building program over a few weeks done especially to prepare the student for the CPL would be a good thing. However there may be no recruitment for 3-4 years if some predictions are right. IMHO it would be much better right now to just enjoy the flying and get logging hours.

As for the standard of flying, this is surely what the hour building is about. You are building experience and becoming an aircraft 'Commander'. You say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised hour building where you have your hand held and are told how to fly. I was assuming that someone who is heading towards a career as a commercial pilot would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to acheive a high standard of airmanship in all their flying.

You have a lot of experience of training both Integrated Course students and Modular students so i am not disagreeing with you that what you say is how many students fly, but i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others.

[fibod]

Do you know Prophead; you might have a point. And perhaps it could be extended to other professions. For example, rather than the bore of going though structured vocational training to become, for example, a doctor, perhaps one could do a medical first aid course (anywhere in the world as long as they subscribe to international first aid standards) and then build experience by treating people who need help? Perhaps one could get together with a couple of mates and open a medical drop-in centre. Maybe do a few more hours work by travelling to a 3rd world country to patch up poor people; it wouldn’t really matter too much if you were not completely familiar with the more advance procedures because the first aid course will give you the basics and it would be more fun to do it in an unstructured way.

Of course, some people might question whether this DIY form of vocational training will result in the same standards as doing a traditional vocational course at a medical school, but surely, this is what vocational training is all about? The student doctor is building experience and becoming a medical practitioner; practicing working unsupervised. People might say the DIY method is inferior to structured and supervised medical training where you have your hand held and are told how to examine, diagnose and treat patients. However, it would be fair to assume that someone who is heading towards a career as a doctor would be mature and intelligent enough to know that they should be aspiring to achieve a high standard of medicine in all their practice.

:rolleyes:

[Prophead]

But that would not be a recognised way of training to be a doctor so is a bit of a waste of the time you spent typing all that out.

Building hours 'DIY' as you put it is a perfectly acceptable way of gaining the hours required to start the CPL course. You seem to be making a rather broad assumption that people are unable to build hours themselves without their flying skills degrading. That they need the help of an instructor to guide them through. There are hundreds of people out there who have done it this way and probably had a great time doing so.

You also keep referring to 'DIY Training'. The hour building is not training. It is about gaining valuble experience as an aircraft 'commander'. This is about making your own decisions not having it all mapped out for you. Whether you are flying the family to france for lunch or doing aeros it all builds experience.

I do not wish to get into an argument with you. We are obviously coming from completely different angles on this. My advice was based on the assumption that there will be no recruitment in the near future, so why do an intensive course? And why stop at 100 hours? What then, dont fly for months on end? Flying regularly and keeping your flying to a high standard is the key.

As i said in a previous post, this is all just my opinion.

[scott_cardiff]

Prophead

I have been reading every post you have posted on this thread with great interest. I totally agree with you in everything you say, that why spend over the odds and do an intense course over a short period of time with the chances of getting a job anytime soon are minimal.

Having taken your advice onboard, which at the moment seems the most realistic, I plan to complete my PPL at Cardiff and join a syndicate of an a/c which is available to me to complete my hours building. Then, if and when the industry is on the up, I plan to go to Bristol GS to complete ATPL studies and onto Bristol Aviation for CPL/IR.

This way I feel that I would not be exposing myself to any huge risks as I would with integrated, and as you have said, train to become a 'good' pilot in command unsupervised and enjoy the real flying.

Thanks for the great advice and keep it coming :ok:

Regards

Scott:)

[Burger81]

Prophead, Fibod,

Thank you very much for both your opinions. I can see it from both points of view. I just want to get out there and get started. I know that doing it part time whilst still working would be worse for me as I have a daughter and would be easily distracted from the ground studies for exams. If doing it through a school full time, that same distraction would not be there during the most of the time and I know any time then spent with her would be quality and not worrying that i should be studying etc

I am just worried at this time about future employment.
If i start the course, aiming for completion with my frozen ATPL around June 2010, what are my options, should there still be a lack of airline jobs??

[scott_cardiff]

And sorry guys, I don't want to seem biased to Prophead's advice, I just feel that for myself personally and the state of the industry, this route seems to be the most realisitc :)

Mike, check your PM! :ok:

[fibod]

Hello Guys

The modular route is completely valid. However, all to often wannabees set off down this route, do a PPL (sometimes of dubious quality) and then without guidance go off at a tangent. It is not that they lack ability, or intelligence, it is that they lack the experience to know what is good and what is bad practice, and unwittingly develop poor habits that can be difficult and expensive to irradiate when they get involved in formal training later on.

Prophead, I'm sorry, my comments in my last post were 'tongue in cheek'; I'll try and be a bit less ironical as sarcasm too often gets lost or misinterpreted on a forum like this. You are right in saying that, other than the PPL, the 150 hours required before commencing a modular CPL course are not training. However, those who do not do any training with the hours at their disposal are severely disadvantaged compared to those who do.

As for the value of this time in developing command skills, for those who plan to or by default end up operating professionally in a single-pilot GA role the experience of coping in at the deep-end without help may be of benefit. It is arguable whether it is of more benefit than supervised training (much of which has to be done as PIC as well to log the required PIC time).

You are right in that we are unlikely to agree on this one; my opinion, for what it is worth, is based on training and examining probably literally hundreds of student pilots who have gone down this route and then struggle when they are required to come up to speed for the CPL or IR, whichever they choose to do first. I am not alone in this; I'd say the majority of instructors working in commercial FTOs teaching modular students would agree that the majority of students arrive poorly prepared as a result of their 'experience'.

In your post yesterday you said "i am giving advice to someone who has yet to start hour building so they can avoid making the same mistakes as others."

So am I. I'm not suggesting avoiding the modular route, what I am suggesting is that if anyone does go down that route, avoid the mistake made by the majority by inadvertently squandering their hours building.

But I've banged on about this enough; anyone would think I'm an old man by the way I keep repeating myself. Oh, I am :sad:

[Prophead]

Hi

I did see the funny side of your post:)

Well people will make their own mind up how they do it. We do however both agree that the hour building is important and should not be squandered whichever way you choose.

Happy flying.:ok:

[Parson]

Scott Cardiff - you'll find the commuting Cardiff - Bristol Airport - Cardiff very tiring everyday, once you get into the flying so I'd budget for staying there during the week.

And definitely base yourself close to BGS for the groundschool brush-up as you'll be working all hours.

Both good schools.

[CharlieLima]

That was a cool discussion prophead and fibod. I would be delighted to rent a plane and head off to France with the family some day or on days off but i think for serious practice id have to go with fibod, and enjoy the fruits later.

Back to the more original post, I have a very keen interest in Bristol aswell, bit of intuition, and a heck of a lot of research, although havnt rang them yet.

Could any one answer me this though, bristol ground school and bristol aviation, two completley different things right?

I rang bristol.gs today and they said they where not affiliated with anyone, does that mean with bristol aviation's integrated course that you dont do ground school with bristol groundschool? (that would be a shame really)

I know i should just ask them myself but its late here and well I'm typin away so thought I might aswell ask.

[Parson]

CL, they are seperate schools. Bristol Flying Centre offered modular flying training only, but have been taken over and are now Bristol Aviation.

From their website, Bristol Aviation offer an integrated course using BGS for the groundschool - they may use others, I don't know.

You guys really ought to polish up your research skills.

[CharlieLima]

Just talked to a guy called Bruce at Bristol Aviation in there, very helpful chap, actually he sais the course is not integrated but modular and they are currently trying to get approval from the CAA to make an integrated one although there would not be very much difference in the actual course itself apart from some of the things would have to be done in the UK. Cheedar is used for the ground school alright but I dont know if they bought them or not, forgot to ask.

Anyway they seem very nice and look very professional, its definatley in my top five for sure, weening them down slowly but surley.

[Big Dawg]

Ronnie - I think this is a really useful thread. I too am on the verge of taking the plunge into F/T 0 to ATPL training and am looking for both value in my training and a reputable, 'customer facing' organisation. The comments on here are really helping to support the other research I have completed and I think my first option has to be Bristol Aviation's Professional Pilot Programme. It is extremely competitively priced, is an established training course and the team down there couldn't be more helpful. I'll let you know how I get on but have signed up to start with them early Feb.

Maybe I'll see you in South Africa