Is this really news?

[taxydual]

RAF was misled over Prince William's flights - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/3405683/RAF-was-misled-over-Prince-Williams-flights.html)

[D O Guerrero]

Well if nothing else, it confirms what a lot of people already thought. Which is that most public bodies cannot admit it when they've got it wrong.

[Pontius Navigator]

Remind me, who was head of RAF Media Comms? Who had the idea of the Spirit of Air type airshows? Who?

[Brewster Buffalo]

Well the article does raise an interesting point at the end when he flew to Hexham to attend a wedding.

After landing he left the aircraft without telling the crew where he was going and no-one on board even bothered to ask!

[JessTheDog]

It's news to me, as a former RAF officer and a taxpayer.

The heir and spare are behaving as complete c0cks. They need to be reamed out by their bosses, and ideally by the Duke of Edinburgh. They are supposed to be officers, even if only for PR purposes. If this had been any other officer below air rank they would be court-martialled.

I trust that, if their standards do not improve, there will be plenty of snitches out there ready to phone the Mail or the News of the Screws. :ok:

[knowitall]

"I trust that, if their standards do not improve, there will be plenty of snitches out there ready to phone the Mail or the News of the Screws."

i sincerely hope that their fellow serving forces personnel are the one group they could count on not to "snitch" to the media

and anyone found doing so should be ostracised as the sh*t they truely are

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Brewster

If you read the full article, the 'rule at the time' was that the RAF was not *allowed* to enquire into matters of his private life.

It therefore had nothing to do with being 'bothered', and everything to do with the agreed protocol that was in place.

[Zoom]

Despite that, I find it hard to believe that the auth or a member of the crew didn't ask, 'Excuse me, sir, but why exactly are you planning to land at XXXX?' Protocol or not, it can't be too difficult for a more senior officer to get a specific answer out of a more junior one.

[chippy63]

Quite. And how does the system handle a crew member saying, " IOW? My stop, I'm off, take over Clarence. And my bruvver comin' wiv me"
And when was Harry picked up? Was that tasked?
Incidentally, I remember his Dad having a crosswind mishap landing a B Ae 146 on a scottish airfield a few years ago. The RAF pilot picked up the flak for that as I recall.

[Rigga]

Ewan Whosearmy:

"Brewster

If you read the full article, the 'rule at the time' was that the RAF was not *allowed* to enquire into matters of his private life.

It therefore had nothing to do with being 'bothered', and everything to do with the agreed protocol that was in place."


Thats interesting!
Where do you start to believe what is written in "the gutter papers" and what is not the truth?

I think there is still some 'flannelling' going on.

Can't trust those PR types y'know, or some crew who want to make a bit on the side.

Yes - I think it will run some more - ODI beware!

[Compressorstall]

Although the Flying Supervisor's Course doesn't specifically mention asking an Heir to the Throne what he intends to do with an aircraft, it does seem like common sense. During my time on a Sqn we would have been hung for something like that, so it's possible that they were taken advantage of, but there may be some a**e covering.

It's a good job Kate Middleton doesn't have a long runway in her back garden, other wise who knows what he would have got up to with his trips in the Typhoon...

Also the down-market tabloids missed the chance to have the 'Prince Hovers his Chopper over Kate's little landing strip'...

I will now stop posting as I have enjoyed too much mulled wine this afternoon.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Rigga

The quote was taken directly from an internal RAF document - one of those sent back and forth during the RAF's internal investigation.

It is therefore not a question of believing the "gutter press"; it is a question of whether you believe the Officer who is actually being quoted.

So, do you?

[goofer]

A Clarence House spokesman said: "Prince William accepts that the sorties were naïve and accepts his share of the responsibility for what happened."

Hmmm. What does accepting his "share" of the responsibility actually amount to for Flying Officer Wales, I wonder. A letter of apology to those embarrassed by his "naivety"...? A cheque to SSAFA for an amount equivalent to his part in the misuse of the sortie...?

Neither should be beyond his means - and might reassure us that he possesses the qualities both as an officer and a prince to justify the sort of blind respect that caused this mess in the first place.

[Arty Fufkin]

I don't know what dissapoints me more; the ar*e covering and sniveling appologies from the RAF's heirachy, or the pinko - republican tendecies of some on this forum.

NO CRIME WAS COMMITTED, NO MONEY WAS WASTED!! JEEZ!! (sorry for shouting)

The RAF were supplying the guy with training hours. I imagine that landing in Kate Middletons back garden has as much training value as landing in any other field, and it was free. As for getting a lift to a wedding or stag do, the same underlying principle applies. His training hours there, crew training back. The aircraft would get flown regardless and the cost would be the same regardless.

When I did my CFS course (before Sept 11 and before people forgot that there was scope for fun in the services) On several occasions I took an aircraft away for the weekend to save me the 4 hr drive to see my girlfriend. It was my course hours and didn't cost the airforce a penny extra so what was / is the issue?

Sounds to me like a big dollop of jealousy. Lighten up comrades, up the revolution!!!

[rogerk]

"Your wife just phoned she can't get in the house as you have the keys in your pocket"
"Bugger"
"Anyone going in to the LFA in the next half hour who could do a quick hover and drop off a set of keys ??"
OC Flight "Give 'em here I'm just signing out"
:ok::ok::ok:

[Vie sans frontieres]

The world's moved on since you did your CFS course Arty. Haven't you noticed, UK plc is a bit short of cash at the moment and a bit short of helicopters in the sandpits. It doesn't look good for the privileged few to be seen to be taking the pi$$.

[Arty Fufkin]

Believe me Vie, I have cottoned on to the lack of cash issue.

My point is that it didn't cost any more cash. The forces are frequently guilty of gross misspending, but this is an incident which does not fall into that bracket as far as I can see. Hours is hours mate, the helicopter doesn't care where its going and will burn fuel and hours at the same rate regardless of whose land it is touching down on.

Your point about lack of cabs in the desert would be valid if the airforce had reduced the number of helicopters in theatre so that PW could be trained. It did not.

Your last point is the most valid and deals with perception. True, to those who do not understand any of the above points, the perception is not a good one. This give us two options:

1) Let all we do be driven by the percetions of the guardian reading masses.

2) Close ranks, support our own, and give a big "mind your own f**king business " to the hacks journos and other politicaly driven provocateurs who can find nothing else to complain about.

I go for option 2.

Option 1 has resulted in phenominal wasteage of monies, PC driven courts martial trashing good mens careers, and probably is ultimately responsible for me having to wear blues!!!


Arty out.

[FJ2ME]

In answer to the original poster, no there is no news value in this whatsoever. What difference does it make if HRH conducted 2 hours of GH ar$ing around near Odiham, or in Kate Middleton's back yard? Answer-none at all.

I have it on fairly good authority that her 'garden' (quite a large paddock i believe), is often used by our rotary fraternity, as its one of a large number of agreed HLS used for practice. I seem to recall from my friend that Ms Middleton was not even there at the time....

This is no different to any number of other coincidental events that people manage to weave in to training hours, and long should it continue. What of the instructors on those flights? I suppose they got absolutely no benefit from the training either? Tosh.

I say again. if you have so many airframe hours allocated to achieve a training objective, it matters not one jot where you decide to point the damn aircraft. I'm pretty sure Ms Middleton didn't charge HRH a landing fee so it may be that the sortie was cheaper than if they had conducted it elsewhere!!

And this has nothing to do with shortage of aircraft in theatre, or have we forgotten that training is priority 2 after ops...? I wonder how long ops can continue without a steady stream of training being conducted, both for new guys and for standardisation of experienced crews? Well, those who are interested will soon be able to find out as that's exactly where we're headed on all fleets....

[Jackonicko]

Arty,

Leaving aside the specifics of the Prince's flights for the moment, I would take issue with your contention that "hours is hours". Of course there must be scope for flexibility, fun, and perks, for those who have worked hard and earned them. But as a guiding principle, it should be the responsibility of all those who task, authorise, and fly any sortie to get maximum training value from every sortie, in order to ensure best value for money for the taxpayer.

In your own example, if you were going to do it more than once, you'd need to demonstrate that a transit from RAF Wallingford to RAF Skegness for the weekend to see your girlfriend would not cost more than (and would provide equal or better training value) to a more formally structured and planned sortie.

[NRU74]

What is an 'elbow' brief as mentioned in the Telegraph report ? Is it something connected to 'nudge nudge' ?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Arty, you are correct. What a silly fuss about nothing. It saddens me that we seem to be in the minority in still seeing nothing wrong in what Prince William did during his Chinook attachment.

The flights were authorized and all provided real training benefit for the crews, including William. If they hadn’t landed in Kate’s field they would have landed in some other field. So what’s the real problem? Perception, envy, sh*t stirring by the media.

The sorties would all have taken place anyway to somewhere and of similar duration, so no taxpayers’ money was wasted. But by now most of the media and general public are convinced it was.

A craven RAF hierarchy and the inept MoD PR organisation panicked. They allowed the media to develop the story and blow it up into a major kerfuffle which is still alive and has now caused significant damage to the reputations of the RAF, the Royal Family and to a number of individual officers, all of whom deserve better.

An avoidable PR disaster. I learned early in my service career never to run in a tight spot. It encourages panic and attracts the attention of predators.

[Arty Fufkin]

Clockwork,

Cheers.

Jackinoko,

30mins low level with a coulple of tgts, 20 mins GH and an instument recovery seemed pretty structured to me at the time. Plus the training benefit of operating to a different airfield once in a while.

Better training, happy employee enjoying being part of the mob, oh, and a well serviced (now) Mrs Fufkin as well!! All at no extra cost. Brilliant.:ok:

True, life has changed in recent years, but if anything we should be encouraging people to enjoy themselves when not being shot at, rather than waiting to pooh pooh their activities just incase it "looks" as though they are having fun.

Ranger anyone??

[I'm Off!]

I blame Torpy who thinks that the use of these training sorties for Fg Off Wales' personal benefit was outrageous and a gross error of judgement of his supervising officers, but thinks getting himself qualified on the C130 and Typhoon is a good use of taxpayers money.

Oh for the days when a senior officer would have told the press where to go and to mind their own business.

[D O Guerrero]

Arty, I think you might be confusing "pinko republicans", for whom I have no time, with people who care about the image of the Royal Family and the armed services. I think what irritates those of us that don't blindly fawn to them, in the hope of an equerry-ship one day, is that the events in question made the RAF, the MoD and the institution of monarchy all look rather stupid at a time when it would be better not to.

[Jackonicko]

Arty,

Exactly as I suspected. Servicing the eventually-to-be-Mrs-Fufkin was a by-product of a useful training sortie, properly authorised, capable of being justified on a reasonable and logical basis, and a sortie which your Staish would have felt happy standing behind. And, without wishing to labour the point, a sortie which you had 'earned' by completing OCU and being properly qualified to undertake yourself, solo, and after having properly earned your wings by following the prescribed courses of training. Unlike the Prince's jaunt to the Isle of Wight.

[airborne_artist]

Many years ago a baby pilot was temporarily medically downgraded after breaking some bones on leave. He needed to find a holding post until the next course started at CU. It so happened that the father of the baby officer was Captain of a ship that was about to leave for a very cold place beyond the windy place with sheep, and would have a) space and b) the opportunity to offload the snotty just in time to return to CU.

The grown-ups decided it looked like nepotism, despite the training advantages and the opportunity to gain an ocean passage watchkeeper's ticket, and the snotty was sent to a fast training boat at Portland where he had a great time and learned just as much. Not much if any money was saved overall as the snotty legally claimed lots of allowances for hotac every time the boat came alongside away from Portland as it had no officers' cabins.

So, if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck. To my mind the training sortie to IOW looked like a duck, and the authoriser ought to have looked a second time to see if it really was a duck, and how much grief would be caused by not auth'ing the flight/shooting said duck.

If PW and his advisors had any gumption they'd have taken it on the chin and hired a minibus instead.

[goofer]

Not to discount any of the above - especially the stuff about the need for hard-earned fun - we're in danger of missing the point.

PW's attachment to the services is intended to serve many purposes, not least reminding taxpayers of traditional links between crown and forces and the fine upstanding qualities of both.

This incident has produced the opposite effect. Mission not accomplished. Blaming under-informed MoD PR panickers and "gutter press" (I read all this in the gutter Telegraph by the way) merely sows the seeds for future embarrassments.

It's not too late to reassure the public that the prince isn't in it for the jollies and the RAF aren't there to make excuses for behaviour that's bound to look cavalier at best.

It may be unfair - but putting this right requires more than a grudging admission of partial responsibility. You never know, it may be the most valuable lesson PW learns in his entire service career.

[rogerk]

I learned early in my service career never to run in a tight spot.
It encourages panic and attracts the attention of predators.:ok::ok:
Here Here !!
Out of interest as we about the same age which squadron did you drive "mice" with ??

[Clockwork Mouse]

1 R Irish Air Platoon; founder member of 660 at Topcliffe; took over Salamanca (Fort Chambley), Soest from the Canadians; ended with 661 at Detmold.
You?

[Talk Reaction]

Hmmm, what a lot of noise over nothing.....

Bloggs needs a QHI cx before an OOA, only available QHI is going to an equally important cse/lve.... hang on, do the check with a suitable landaway, Bloggs ticked, QHI possibly in sensible location, Bloggs does some trg on way back to base with extra pilot/nav. No harm done, in fact good use of assets (people) and hours.

Ok, maybe not ideal but there's no story there. Replace Bloggs with PW. If the drop off fits sensibly with trg same case so why the noise??? And for goodness sake dont even mention the Middleton back garden because most of the trg fields in LFA 1/9 are SOMEONES private land!!!!

Yes niave (sp?) but not for any reason other than the way the press have been allowed to interpret it, and the way it's being fuelled here (no doubt by all the people who threatened to throw in there wings when PW got his). Grow up, this is definatley not news,

[cazatou]

Arty

Looks like your next "landaway" will be Chalgrove to save money.

[rogerk]

651 Sqn Verden - 1969/1972
Visited Detmold many times !!
Oh for those times over again.
:):)

[Clockwork Mouse]

Got my wings in October 1969. 208 Course I think (the last Hiller one).