The Nervous Flyer Thread

[vendetta]

Hey guys :( ,

my apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but how safe is AA in these days of seeming financial crisis? :( I'll be flying with them in about two weeks and I'm already ****ting my pants. :( Yeah, I'm scared of flying.

I know, statistically flying is the safest mode of transportation etc, but the fact remains that there still are fatal incidents happening, and I always think that my flight's gonna be next. :( Especially since I read about the FAA maintenance issue earlier this year, and those crashes in 2001 and 1979 (which, according to what I read, was due to a maintenance mistake as well). I know those probably won't happen again the exact same way, and the airline learns from mistakes, but I'm frightened nonetheless.

I just want to make it safe to my destination. Any calming words would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[vendetta]

AA pilot: airline mentality often cost over safety - Airline - It's Safe! FAA (Finally!) - No, It Isn't! So...? (http://www.eturbonews.com/2109/aa-pilot-airline-mentality-often-cost-over-sa)

:(

[SNS3Guppy]

I've been flying professionally since I was a teenager. I skydive, and fly airplanes ranging from low level types of operations, very close to the ground and in the mountains, to high altitude large and small turbojets. I don't like heights. I never have.

Find something to take your mind off the idea that you're high above the ground. You probably have little fear of riding in a car. In a car, the bottom of the car is just beneath your feet. In an airplane, it's no different. The floor of the airplane isn't thousands of feet beneath you, but directly below your seat. You're not high up at all, but sitting in a seat, no different than in your home or in a car. Concentrate on that.

Take something to read. If I'm not sitting in the cockpit, I either read, or sleep when I travel. I don't enjoy sitting for any period of time without something to do, so I study, read, or sleep when I'm going from one place to another.

Turbulence can be upsetting, but if you've been on a boat on a river, then you understand turbulence. If you've been in a car on a rough dirt road, you understand turbulence. As an airplane moves through air, it may do so smoothly, or with a few bumps, these are no different than an uneven road or the swirls and turbulence found in a river or on the ocean. The airplane isn't going to fall or become uncontrollable, it's just a little bouncy. If you can tolerate it in a car, you can tolerate it in the airplane. No difference, really.

Some people find that eating in advance helps, some find that going without eating helps. Find out what works for you. If you can keep fresh air flowing over you by using the overhead vent, you may find this calming and some relief to any airsickness or uneasiness you might feel.

I find that sitting by a window helps most people. I much prefer to sit by a window. It's less convenient if you need to get up to go to the toilet, but I like to look out the window. I feel like I'm in a big tube with no sense of up or down if I sit near the aisle. Window seats help. Being able to look at a distant point and reduce the sensation of motion helps.

Personally, turbulence and bumps tend to rock me to sleep. Try it a little and you might find it works for you, too.

[Alex 009]

Hate to be a party pooper, but Jetstar is essentially the budget arm of QANTAS. I would have no hesitation on getting on a Qantas aircraft tomorrow, but due to savings at the moment my next few flights are on Jetstar. Anyway aircraft wings are designed to have wing flex in them. Check out a picture of a 777 on the ground, and then just after rotation.

Also this might help:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/wingflex-diagram-thumb-476x237.jpg

As for ways to help, try and keep your mind occupied elsewhere. Enjoy a film/book/magazine, and just try telling yourself that the aircraft is more than capable of handling the turbulence.

[Biggles225]

I'm pretty sure most major airlines will run a 'fear of flying' course, which are effective in the majority of cases. Give the airline a ring or google 'fear of flying course' or somesuch, that should get you there.
I know what its like to be with a nervous passenger, I've had the circulation in my hands cut off more than once when she saw the wings flexing! Getting bounced about a bit is uncomfortable, but aircraft are designed to cope with it. Seriously, you are far safer in an aircraft than you are crossing the road!
Incidentally I was told by my father many years ago that no-one is afraid of flying - they are afraid of crashing, not that that helps!

Good luck, I hope you'll soon find flying is the nicest way to travel.

[Alex 009]

I liked the car story, its just that in a car I can moderate my speed to try and avoid collisions.

Without stating the obvious, how many cars do you see on the road every day, and then how many aircraft do you see when you look up?

As for Qantas with the 767s (I love 757s, and wish they were down under), I just love feeling the power of a lightly loaded one on takeoff-the power you feel! And the 767 is still currently in production, so a good aircraft.

[Rainboe]

Your fear of wings snapping is as irrational as looking at cars on the roads and wondering how axles can take the weight and why wheels don't keep snapping off? When was the last time you recall aircraft wings snapping off? Accidents do happen, aeroplanes do occassionally crash for some reason, but put it into context with the number of flights taken a day. If your number is up, it's up. You might as well sit back and relax and not spend your life worrying about it- spoil your life all the time for worrying about the extremely remote possibility of a very rare accident?

There's enough deluded people out there spending their lives worrying about being watched all the time by a mythical man with a white beard up in the sky and terrified of being judged at that moment when they finally pop their clogs! What a waste of time! Relax, enjoy yourself, follow your conscience and forget about 'deities'- they don't exist, forget about the extremely remote possibility you will be involved in a crash, the wings aren't going to break, the aeroplane is your tool for going from A to B, look forward to your destination and enjoy the view, or just get absorbed in a good book. Travel with the best- in your case it is a good investment. There's enough real stuff out there to worry about- road accidents, cancer, health, money. Don't add ridiculous things you don't need to worry about!

[Biggles225]

Come on Rainboe thats a bit harsh to someone who is genuinely afraid. Irrational it may be but fear is like being 4 years old and terrified the bogeyman in the wardrobe is coming to get you, your Mum has told you 100 times there isnt one but you know it just might be there waiting for her to go away! :eek:

I'm with SNS3Guppy's solution, plus I always thought I was one of the few who didn't like heights at any price.

[TightSlot]

I've merged two threads expressing anxiety about flying into this one - If this thread becomes useful, I'll cross-refer in FAQ for newbies (the FAQ thread that newbies rarely read, that is :rolleyes:)

[Cunliffe]

yourfather
This thought may help.
Some years ago I was sitting next to an American couple on a European flight. The lady was very nervous clinging to her husband for dear life.
He said to her "You don't need to worry, this is like being in a stretch limo with a professional chauffeur upfront."
Transpired this was his first visit to Europe since flying Mustangs in WW2.

[nebpor]

Yourfather:

Many years ago, I too picked up an irrational fear of flying - having to fly every week with my job it didn't make life pleasant.

My solution?

Read ... read everything you can about flying - it's why I found this forum originally. Become a flight engineer in your head! I was already a very, very technical IT guy - now I can understand pretty much every system on the plane, how it works, and how little it matters if it stops working once you realise the redundancy.

Get on wikipedia - look up "wing", go watch the videos of Airbus testing the wings on the A380 to see how strong they are .... go watch the videos of engines being tested, go read up on how the engine actually works and why they are so reliable!

I don't claim to be completely over it, but my irrational fear was the engines would both stop .... I've got over that one at least. It was silly - I'm a petrolhead ... in the 200K miles I've ever driven an engine has never cut out on me, and that pile of crap gets inspected every 3-6 months and then it's just an oil change .... a plane engine gets virtually taken to bits on regular occassions, and the results all fed back into the design/maintenance so everyone gets to share the results!

Plus speak to the pilots if you get a chance - trust them, they are great folk and abject professionals ... plus they love answering our daft questions :E

I once commented about how our rate of accelleration had changed on take-off as we were going down the runway (the rate slowed, had never felt this before) after a journey out of Heathrow one day and the Captain seemed pleased I had even noticed! He then explained the score (can't remember exact reasoning) and take off has never bothered me again ... although it's the first 2 mins in flight that are the worst for me. As soon as the "bong" sounds for the Cabin Crew to do their job I know the Pilot is happy about the safety of his crew, hence I relax also at that point.

Hope that helps - you'll get there .... but only YOU can get you there!
Stephen

[beachfront71]

Another way to think of this is that there is an abundance of pilots who are say 55 or 60 years old... Many of them have been flying for 30 years and even longer if you include military service.

Imagine waking up every day and flying a plane for 6-8 hours... now it is a bit more complicated then that but you get the point... You wake up and go work at the bank, shop, etc... They go work in the cockpit.

Many have families, are college graduates, & extremley smart but for some reason choose to fly airplanes even though they might be able to get a job in another industry that would pay them more money... This is not because they like the dangerous job of being a pilot but just the opposite..The enjoy being a polot and understand how reliable planes really are.. They have been through the courses and understand just how hard it is to make a plane "fall" out of the sky...

If you think for 1 minute a pilot does not think flying is one of the safest forms of transportation you are just fooling yourself.

Now, regarding maintenance, etc.. Look at it this way... Pick the part of the world with the worst maintenance for commercial planes (africa maybe?) and then ask yourself how many times you hear about planes crashing, is it daily, weekly, monthly, yearly? Take thier standards and multiply that by 1,000's and you have most modern countries standards..

[OFSO]

As an ex-aerospace engineer who misses his work, I often listen on my local airport's approach and departure freqs on my scanner.

Now I won't mention the majority airline which uses that airport 'cos you'll all sneer, but the sheer professionalism of the crew flying those planes is overwhelming, and engenders pure unadulterated TRUST in them when I fly half-a-dozen times a year.

And of course, there's no comparison between these well-trained pilots, and the many incompetant idiots driving in front, behind and beside me when I take to any of the local highways in my car - every day.

Maybe concentrating on the realities of the situation will help ? It does for me - and I'n no stranger to panic attacks, either.

[boardingpass]

For nervous flyers out there, I fly domestic flights in Italy, where daily I see people praying and then the customary applause after successfully touching down still alive. I therefore feel quite experienced in dealing with nervous passengers. Some prefer to keep quiet and sweat privately, and others ask lots of questions. I've seen people crying out of fear, and even the odd full-blown panic attack. (I do feel so sorry for the passengers who just before take-off have to offload themselves because they can't go through with it out of fear, but it is a serious delay for all the other passengers).

I think you'll feel better if you take a moment once you've found your seat and sat down to mention to a passing crew member that you're a nervous flyer and ask a question like, "has any turbulence been forecast?" You'll be amazed how calming a gentle touch on the shoulder and smile from a cabin crew can be! (Yes, it's all part of the service).

Then, try and remember that planes have no problem flying through turbulence and that provided you're wearing your seatbelt, the worst that can happen is you spill your coffee or red wine on your white shirt. Yes, it can be unsettling and can make some people feel nauseous, but compare it to driving over cobblestones or speed humps - nothing to worry about.

The actual flight itself is safe. Yes, sometimes unfortunately accidents happen on take off or landing, but once you've successfully taken off and the captain has turned off the seatbelt signs, you've got nothing at all to worry about. You can really relax until it's time to land. Really. I've even been hit by lightning and the only concern I've had is whether I've got my bathers for the unscheduled night-stop.

So, that's the flight covered. For the take off, tell yourself that the drive to the airport was much more dangerous (which it was) and you managed that without any problems, so you should be able to get through this. Same for the landing, except divert your attention by remembering that your biggest fear should be not being reunited with your bags, or the taxi driver ripping you off.

Some say you can study the safety card, count the rows to the exits, etc, which as a safety professional, yes, I do encourage you to do, but in practice, if you're a nervous flyer, by dwelling on something that is so unlikely, you could probably make yourself even more nervous. And therefore, you might be better off just focussing on your travel destination and all the lovely things you're going to do when you arrive.

I think nervous passengers feel that way because it is a very unfamiliar environment and they do not feel in control of the situation. I like to therefore suggest a two-pronged approach.

1 - Trust. Trust the pilots who are extremely well trained and professional and between them will have years of experience. Trust the maintenance of the aircraft which has been designed and maintained by professionals and finally confirmed by a pilot before EVERY flight.

2 - It's all relative. Compare it to an everyday situation like being in a car. You're not in direct control of what the other cars are doing, yet you manage to face this real danger every day. If you're middle aged, you probably got your licence about 20+ years ago, and have never had any driver training since. Pilots and crew have constant training and regularly prepare for all kinds of unforeseen situations in simulators and other types of training. We also check everything from A to Z. How often do you check your tyre pressure or amount of oil/coolant/brake fluid before setting out each day? Re-read number 1. You'll be fine.

[vendetta]

....and yet there are still fatal accidents happening, see my first post. Good maintenance? Then why did this happen?

It revealed the probable cause to be attributable to damage to the left wing engine pylon that occurred during an earlier engine change at American Airlines's aircraft maintenance facility in Tulsa, Oklahoma on March 29 and 30, 1979. [1] Evidence came from the flange, a critical part of the pylon assembly. It was revealed to be damaged before the crash, and investigators looked at the plane's maintenance history and found it was serviced eight weeks before the crash. The pylon was damaged due to an ill-thought-out engine removal procedure. The original procedure called for removal of the engine prior to the removal of the engine pylon. To save time and costs, American Airlines, without the approval of McDonnell Douglas, had begun to use a faster procedure. They instructed their mechanics to remove the engine with the pylon all together as one unit.

Maybe in these hard economic times they want to "save time and costs" again. :confused:

[boardingpass]

Vendetta, if you're a nervous flyer, stop reading about airline crashes. :ugh: Leave that up to the professionals to learn from their mistakes. You've quoted 1979! AA and most airlines today do not save costs by cutting corners on safety. They cut routes, cut service, charge extra, cut bonuses, cut terms and conditions and lay off staff... but that's another thread altogether.

[Octopussy2]

This is just to say thanks to Boardingpass for taking the time to post - excellent post!

I'm an extremely nervous passenger (I've been known to burst into tears on take-off though I try not to do it in front of colleagues on work trips!!) but I need to keep it under control because I love seeing the world and I'm determined not to pass it on to my children. I'm not going to let an irrational fear stop me doing what I want to do.

Reading Pprune has helped enormously over the last few years, and I'm really grateful to the flight and cabin crew who take the time to post here and answer our daft questions!:ok:

[SNS3Guppy]

Airplanes are mechanical subjects, and machines break. This is a given. Airplanes are maintained in rigid accord with established practices, schedules, methods, and techniques. In times past, where methods have been found inadequate, new practices have taken their place. One can hardly look at an incident several decades in the past and use that for the basis of determining what goes on today.

As an aircraft mechanic and inspector, I strive very hard to achieve not only a high level of professionalism, but an exacting degree of adherence to published data, procedures, and practices. I use calibrated tools. I use only approved parts. I don't rush. I seek help where it's needed. I ask others to oversee my work and double check what I do. I have operated this way for many, many years.

As a pilot, I train not to fly the airplane under normal circumstances, but for emergencies. In a few days I'll return to the simulator for recurrent training. I won't be practicing normal approaches and landings. There won't be but a moment at any given time during each four hour session, when the airplane is operating properly. From the time I climb in and begin to start engines, we will have fires, failures, losses, etc. We'll seldom operate for more than a moment on all four engines; at least one, occasionally two will have failed. We'll have depressurizations, instrument failures, electrical losses, control failures, etc. Engines will stall, catch fire when they're started, runaway, overtemp, and flame-out. Equipment will break. We'll have one emergency after another during takeoff and landing. We'll encounter windshear. Hydraulics will fail. We'll have cargo fires. Every moment of that sim session, plus the two hour brief beforehand, and the two hour brief after, will be nothing but emergencies and working together as a crew to handle them.

Mechanical things break, and the airplane is a mechanical thing. We don't train to operate it when everything is functioning well; that much is a given. We train to handle and operate the airplane normally when things don't work; that is, when things break, we train so that we can operate the airplane as though that were routine. And, it is.

Over the course of my career I've had a number of engine failures. I've had several wings fracture. I've had landing gear fail, depressurization, loss of hydraulics. Partial and complete electrical failures. Several fires. One on board explosion. An individual in the right seat experience a heart attack. Compressor stalls, pump failures, autoflight or navigation failures. Loss of instruments. Severe icing. Brake failures. And so forth. These things happen. They do not happen routinely, but they do happen. The hallmark of a professional in the cockpit is that he or she trains in order to make the emergency into a routine, safe event. We also train and use experience to avoid situations becoming emergencies. We're not paid for the monkey skills of flying the airplane, but for judgement.

When something goes wrong, we have a procedure in place to address it. If I lose a hydraulic pump, for example, I already know in advance which checklist to use, and how to address the problem; it's already been thought out, reviewed, and practiced. Over and over. The airplane has multiple, redundant systems. If I lose one system, other systems take it's place, back up the same items, etc.

what do you do when there is a lot of turbulence (as a pilot)

what about weather up ahead, what kind of stuff do you know. can you see that in 30 mins you'll be in a bumpy patch

do you get nervous when flying through clouds.

what about water ingestion when flying through clouds.


I'll say up front that don't like flying in clouds. I never have. I've been doing this for a long time, and have even done weather modification flights in which we sought out thunderstorms to fly through...but I don't like flying when I can't see out. That goes back to the reasons I started flying, though. I began flying because I wanted to be above the earth, and be able to look down and see. (Bearing in mind that I don't like heights...a conundrum I still haven't resolved, decades later). Being in clouds somewhat negates that...as does flying the airplane. Much of what we do is instrument type flying, which involves a lot of reference to the instrument panel in order to make the airplane do what we want it to do.

With this in mind, when we fly, it really doesn't matter if we can see out or not. We could just as easily cover the windscreen with aeronautical charts and block out all the view, and the flight would progress no differently. Likewise, we can takeoff and immediately enter the cloud, and stay in the cloud all the way until landing without any adverse affects; the instruments don't know the difference. When we're flying by instruments, neither do we.

What do I do when there's a lot of turbulence? Two things. Slow down, and seek smoother air. But this really depends what I'm doing. If I'm flying passengers, my first thought is to safety, with a very close second thought to passenger comfort. A change in altitude, or altering flight path may produce a better ride. Airlines and corporate flights go to a lot of trouble to find the smoothest air...that's not always possible...it may be bumpy everywhere, but we really do try. Reports are being passed back and forth by radio between pilots and by air traffic control of turbulence and winds, and it's common to seek different altitudes or routes to produce the best ride for passengers.

When not flying passengers, I also slow down; we have turbulence penetration speeds for the protection of the airplane. Just like approaching a speed bump in a car, you want to slow down not just for comfort, but to go easy on the car. We do the same in the airplane. If we encounter turbulence, we ensure the airplane is within a prescribed speed range which allows for safe operation of the airplane. When we do this, we consider the maximum speeds as well as the minimum speeds; we want to minimize the stresses on the airplane, cargo, and passengers, but also have a healthy safey margin from stalling, too.

Other types of flying may involve frequent flight in turbulence. For many years I was involved in aerial firefighting, which required flight close to terrain and mountains in strong winds. This tends to produce severe turbulence, which was very frequent. I did that with passengers and without, depending on the aircraft and the mission...and in such cases often the mission dictated a low degree of comfort in order to get the job done. Safety was always the priority, but it could be a very rough ride. Those types of operations are very different to airline passenger flying, and you can rest assured that as a passenger, your flight crew will be working hard to find the smoothest air and make the safest flight humanly possible.

What about weather up ahead? What do we know? We know two things. We know what's forecast (and reported), based on our preflight planning. We also know what we can see on radar, along with current reports from other aircraft up ahead. Some radars include logic to predict turbulence to some degree, but radar doesn't actually see turbulence. It sees moisture, and reflects radar energy back from moisture in the atmosphere. If the moisture is being moved around in a way that an advanced radar system can determine might have turbulence, some systems can then display a best guess as to what lies ahead.

In lieu of that, we use our own judgment to look at weather on radar and determine how to go around it, over it, or where acceptable, through it. The general rule of thumb is that the heavier the precipitation (or the more the moisture), the more we avoid that particular area. That may involve a deviation around the weather, it may involve an altitude change to go over the weather, or it may involve picking our way through weather systems. Airline operations are VERY conservative when it comes to flying in weather.

This said, simply because there's moisture in the cloud, doesn't mean it's dangerous or even a rough ride. The type of weather makes all the difference, and that's a big part not only of training a pilot to be a pilot, but ongoing education and experience throughout one's career. So, when we look at the weather ahead, we're using judgment to address what we see as it appears on radar, and even as we see it out the cockpit window.

I normally fly with my radar ranged out about 100 miles or so. I keep it tilted down in cruise much of the time, and clouds or storms between the radar antenna and the ground show up in the distance. I watch them to determine if they disappear as I get closer. If they do, it means I'm well above them. If not, I scan them with the radar to determine the best course of action. Normally I won't see any weather on radar sooner than 150 miles out, and won't see a good picture of it until it's within about 80 miles. Planning is done continuously then, as we get closer to the weather, based on the picture we see. Weather is dynamic, it is constantly changing, and our plan to address it is also therefore constantly changing.

What about water ingestion, you ask? Water ingestion is seldom a problem. It's true that an ungodly amount of water could possibly cause an engine to flame out...but the truth is that it would take a LOT. When flying in rain, we turn on ignitors. If the engine flames-out, we wouldn't know it, because it relights immediately. A turbine engine is constantly alight inside, and by keeping ignition running in turbulence or heavy precipitation, the flame is prevented from going out.

A large turbofan engine is moving much of the air through the fan, not through the engine, and water won't really affect the fan. The gas generator portion of the engine, which is the "jet" portion of the engine, sees but a small portion of the airflow through the engine. Most airline engines today are called high-bypass turbofans, which means that most of the air passing through the engine actually bypasses the engine. You can think of the fan as a propeller; it's just spinning to move air. Water passing through it doesn't enter the engine where it can affect the flame or combustion process inside.

What little moisture does enter is modified as it passes through the engine...first passing through a compressor where the air temperature is increased dramatically, before it's handed over to the turbine section. Most of the airflow is there to cool the engine; very little of it is actually used for the combustion process. Moisture in the air can actually increase the thrust in some cases, as water expands 240 times when vaporized....but much of it just passes through and serves to aid the engine operation, if anything.

A bigger concern is freezing conditions, when ice forms at the fan inlet or on the turbine blades. To account for this, we use hot air from the engine, after it's been compressed inside, to heat the blades in some cases, and the inlet to the engine. This "nacelle anti-ice" serves to protect the engine and prevent damage or flame-outs. Whenever we turn it on or off, we also turn on the ignition, on the remote chance that any ice which has already formed might cause a flame-out as it breaks free or melts. In the airplane I fly, we even have lights which flash that tell us if our engine speed is inadvertantly too low to produce hot enough air for the nacelle anti-ice, and it's smart enough to know the proper engine speeds for a given altitude, and whether we are using the anti-ice or not.

[vendetta]

@ SNS3Guppy

Thanks for your long detailed reply, it's helped alot. My point wasn't about the maintenance procedures themselves, though. They weren't performed because maintenance didn't know better then - no, they were performed in order to save time and costs (or so it seems from the report). Since your posting to me sounded as though the incident happened because of "outdated" maintenance performance ("In times past, where methods have been found inadequate...") and thus being unlikely to happen again; I'd just like to point out that my point was about saving costs and time, and THAT is not an issue of the past.

THAT was my worry - that poor / rushed maintenance might happen again because of financial and timely pressure. And of course, that it might be the plane I am on. :oh: :confused: :suspect:

[13Alpha]

A few years back I went through a period when I became very nervous about flying. A few things which I found helpful in overcoming my fears:

- Fear of flying can be down to fear of not being in control. So find some ways you can control the situation. For me, I read that seats near the wings were the most stable part of the plane in turbulence, so I always asked for a seat in the middle.

- Being able to look outside at the horizon also helped me. So again, I tried to get a window seat whenever I could.

- Find out more about aviation. The more I learned, particularly about how over-engineered planes are, the better I felt.

- I noticed that I was more nervous on some flights than others and that this wasn't always down to the airline, or the weather, or turbulence, or whatever, but about something I was anxious about _on the ground_
For some people, fear of flying is just a manifestation of anxiety about something else entirely. Is there something else going on in your life which is making you anxious ?

- Keep track of which flights you were most anxious on. Are there any patterns ? I noticed I was more anxious on flights travelling away from home than on those going home. Again, your anxiety might be about what's going to happen to you at your destination, or the fact that you feel you're having to travel somewhere you don't want to.

Since 2005 I've taken, at the latest count, 268 flights on business and quite a few more for leisure and had very few anxious moments . So it is possible to conquer your fears.

Hope this helps - good luck :ok:

13Alpha

[fireblade2000uk]

I can remember many years ago flying from Madrid to LGW on a Dan Air Comet on Friday 13th. Over the Bay of Biscay I calmly (ish) walked up to the cabin door and just stood there. A stewardess asked me what was wrong and I said in a very calm voice "please ask the pilot to land the aeroplane. I want to get off." Whilst 95% of my brain was telling me not to be so stupid and to sit down, the 5% was so strong, so powerful that it took over the common sense. Fortunately she gently guided me to my seat and, sitting in the aisle beside me, spoke to me for the remainder of the flight. My fears seemed to vanish once she started speaking.
For 5 or 6 years after that I simply could not fly, panic attacks days before departure resulting in the cancellation of trips. I eventually attended one of the first BA fear of flying courses. I thought I knew a bit about the theory of flight having been in the Cadet Force at school and flown Chipmunks. The course was so enlightening, even down to explaining why it sounded like the nose wheel had a puncture on the takeoff run, the crew then moving the aircraft slightly left of centre (a bit like running on cats eyes when driving and then steering off them).
It was when we got on board an aircraft to complete the course, I suddenly realised that my fear was far more controlled than others. We were pushed back from the gate twice, having had to return to let people off! Having completed the course I started to fly as a passenger again, not just in big jets but helicopters and occasional smaller General Aviation aircraft. I never really enjoyed it but tried my best to cope. Then, one day whilst getting on a flight to the Lebanon, my fears returned. Having alerted the crew (and got on and off the aircraft about 3 times obviously whilst still at the gate) I eventually calmed myself enough using the techniques from the course to stay on board. After take-off the captain came back and spoke to me offering advice on relaxation etc. About an hour out of Beirut he invited me into the cockpit and I sat in the jump seat for the approach and landing. I have to stay I was enthralled, it was simply fantastic, and it had such a profound effect on me that I have flown without fear ever since.
I consider myself extremely fortunate that jumpseats were allowed to be used in the past. I knew that I would have to overcome my fear eventually, but what the crew did for me that day really did it for me and I can never thank them enough.
I did write to the airline and asked for my thnaks to be passed on but you never know if the message was delivered. I hope so.

[beachfront71]

You also have to remember that chances are all of us are going to have to board a flight multiple times during our life so with that in mind, if flying is truly a frightening episode do your self a favor and start coping with it now... not the days or weeks before you have to get on a plane.

It is just like any other event you may come across.. a job interview, running a marathon, remodeling your home, etc.. these are all sort of random acts but the point is you dont just wake up and do them, you prepare weeks, if not months, in advance before the big day comes around.

If flying makes you that anxious, approach it with a plan and just like someone who has trained hard for a marathon, you will feel confident and even excited for the task at hand when the day comes around.

[ladylily63]

I have been flying as a passenger for almost 40 years and wouldn't say I was fearful, just slightly apprehensive on boarding an aircraft.

I have encountered slight turbulence on most flights, however last May shortly after our departure from Malaga we had severe turbulence. Even the cabin crew looked scared which didn't reassure us much. The aircraft seemed to drop a considerable amount on a couple of occasions. It lasted about 15 mins which surprised me as I had always thought the pilot would do his best to get out of it if possible.

Would this have been caused by the mountains in the area? However I fly to Malaga frequently and have never experienced this before. Worse thing was there was no mention of it from the pilot after we had gone through it and stabilised, surely a reassuring announcement would be the done thing after such an event?

Now the silly questions:)

Is turbulence dangerous? and what is the worse case scenario

Do pilots ever get frightened by it?

Thank you and my apologies if my questions seem daft to you professionals!

[redsnail]

yourfather,

Correct, a 20 year old aircraft isn't necessarily less safe than a 2 month old one.

Re fatigue, our engineers use many techniques to detect it. For starters, many parts are "life'd" that is, they have a set time period they can be installed. After that, replace. There's boroscopes, x-rays and other non destructive methods to check the components.
Fatigue in components is relatively easy to catch, fatigue in people, a lot harder.

Turbine Engines rarely flame out. 2 reasons. Too much ice ingestion (it has to be A LOT) or lack of fuel. When there's a risk of icing or in clouds, we turn on the engine anti ice system and turn on the igniters. Unlike a car (piston engine), we (turbines) don't need the igniters (spark plugs) on all the time.

I strongly advise you to seek out Qantas' Fear of Flying course. It is well worth it. I used to assist on it every now and then.

ladylily,

Yeah, Malaga is known for it's turbulence and is caused by the mountains nearby. 15 min is a long time but if there's another aircraft above then they cannot climb.
Yes, a reassuring word from the flight deck would be useful, but if they're below 10,000' and trying to deal with Spanish ATC (controllers) as well as monitor what's going on, they just might have been a bit busy.

Turbulence dangerous? Only if you try and do something really silly in it. Hence flying in a thunderstorm is unwise. (Big cause of delays in summer)

I don't like it. I do my best to get out of it ASAP.

[ladylily63]

Thank you for your reply Redsnail, slightly reassuring but a bit disconcerting to hear that pilots don't like turbulence either:uhoh:

I understand what you mean about the pilots being busy but still think they could have done an announcement later on in the flight.

Best wishes

[redsnail]

ladylily,

Reason why we don't like it is because it spills our coffee. Must admit, I didn't worry about it so much when I flew freight. My pax think nothing of tapping us on the shoulders and asking when it will stop....

I can't answer why they didn't. Could be many reasons. I'm not going to speculate.

[ladylily63]

:D love your reply haha don't want any burns casualties on board

[Final 3 Greens]

As a FQTV (fly about 120 sectors per year), I reckon that many passengers are at least slightly nervous, this being an anecdotal conclusion from conversations with other passengers.

There are good reasons for this discomfort and I'd just like to say that its really nice to see people from the industry taking time to share knowledge and empathise with posters here.

[FWOF]

Well here's a topic I can certainly add value to.

Up to just over two years ago I was adamant I would never, ever fly again. I was convinced I would die, plumetting to the earth/sea to my death. I felt sure everyone felt the same, afterall, there are so many things that can go wrong on a plane, aren't there? My last flight prior to this ten year break was to Jamaica where I cried and sobbed all the way there and all the way back.

THEN I got offered a job in Belfast, which meant having the FLY. TWICE a week! So, I took it as I knew that I'd be flying with a colleague I love and trust. I'd never be able to fly alone.

The first flight I took (all of 35 mins) couldn't have been better. Smooth, perfect and more importantly, short. However, the moment we touched down my first thought was that I will never, EVER be able to get on a plane again! Well of course I did as I had to get home but on the day I landed I scoured the internet and found a site called Flying Without Fear. I ordered a book, a DVD and a set of CD's. When I got home I read the book cover to cover, twice. Watched the DVD and listened to the CD's which were superb. I used to be nervous of all the noises, things that were strange to me but clearly completely normal! I think I spent about £60, and it was worth it.

With regard to turbulence, I now look at it this way, and this is just as a PAX, as you've seen there are lots of superb answers from others above. So, my sensibility tells me that firstly the plane would never be flown into anything dangerous. I also understand that planes and wings are tested to levels that simply would never ever occur in the real world. Sure, it gives me a turn sometimes to look out the window and see the wings waggling away and bending all over the place, but if they didn't they'd snap off probably! Sometimes it's bumpy, sometimes bumpier than others, but it's just uncomfortable at best, and certainly not dangerous! Also the thing that gives me the greatest comfort is that the plane is flown by normal guys and girls for whom it's a day job. Same goes for cabin crew. They want to get home as much as we do!

Sadly, and I did this myself, when you're nervous you go looking for facts and figures. And you will find them, and lots of awful pictures and videos. What you won't hear on the news or find anywhere in the media is a screaming headline that says "TWENTY THOUSAND FLIGHTS WENT TODAY - ALL COMPLETELY NORMAL!". Of course, when accidents DO happen, and they do at times, it's newsworthy because it's so unusual! And I agree that you do have to consider it the same as getting in your car. I don't even think about, and yet hundreds of people every day are killed and injured in car accidents, or crossing the road.

So I'll close by saying that I'm still not cured so to speak, I'm not leaping up the steps two at a time! But I now take four flights a week, alone. I sit by the window, I listen to my iPod, I have a drink. I enjoy that the plane is either taking me to work or taking me home. If it's bumpy (very rarely, as we seem to get moved out of the way of it!), I just hold my drink so it doesn't spill! And when I get off at the end, I ALWAYS say thankyou to the cabin crew and any of the uniforms that are stood there.

Good luck!

[charlie76]

Thanks for this reply. You sound like me. I have a flight booked for next Thursday and from the minute its booked I am terrified. I m that bad that I almost wish that the flight will be cancelled.
I have just ordered some CDs and I have read the book which has helped a little.
I really hope that I can become a normal flyer like you.

[Sockendon1]

This is my first post...and as a very, VERY nervous flyer (I also cry before and during every take off! :O)...am compelled to write and say a huge 'Thank You' to the explanations given by all SLF and airline personnel in this thread..:ok:(whether you're up front and driving or pandering to my needs down in the main part of the tube )

As touched on here, I have been using this forum for a while to learn a bit more about what goes on in general, and I must say, have been helped immensley (sp?) by a number of the threads contained.

My main issue is also control, and in particular the lack of it I have over other SLF! You know the sort..for example - the ones who insist on using their phones until the VERY last second etc - at which point I'm trying to talk myself out of physically wrestling them to the ground and confiscating (and switching off ) the offending item! I've always been terrified that one mobile would cause the FD to cease operating completely and would result in the a/c plummeting 34,000ft - irrational I understand to those in 'the know' but a very real fear for me...

Recently I was helped by the FAQ's thread (some newbies do read them..:)) - covering this very topic and which after reading left me a little calmer and logical. In fact, 2 weeks ago on a flight from LAS to LGW I even managed not to have a major panic attack when the PAX behind me brought out his phone (switched on but in flight mode - I hope!! :E) to show me pictures of his baby! What do they say? One step at a time....

So, thank you again to you all for your professionalism and patience with PAX such as I. Your work is always greatly appreciated although I may be too scared to show it at the time. I certainly couldn't/wouldn't do you job - not for anything!

Fly safe..

S

[TightSlot]

Welcome to PPRuNe Sockendon1 - and thanks for your first post (and reading the FAQ's :))

[SNS3Guppy]

Is turbulence dangerous? and what is the worse case scenario

Do pilots ever get frightened by it?



Is turbulence dangerous...it can be. Many things can be dangerous. Driving to buy groceries on a snowy day, for example. That can be dangerous. What does one do when the roads are slick and it's dangerous to drive? One slows down. We do the same thing in an airplane. We have speeds at which we can pass safely through turbulence.

Some years ago I was involved in a retardant drop on a wildfire southeast of Albuquerque, New Mexico (USA). We were on the lee side of a mountain range with some strong winds. Mountains produce strong turbulence. The turbulence on this drop was severe to extreme; it was bad enough that our vision was blurred from the violence. Our run-in was at low level, and due to terrain, downwind. We would likely have elected to go sit it out until the winds died down, but a very fast moving wildfire was about to overtake a community, and the retardant was badly needed on scene.

In our sister ship, following behind us, was an identical crew, consisting of captain, copilot, and flight engineer. The flight engineer was sitting on the forward edge of his seat, working the power levers...much like the gas pedal on your car. He wasn't able to wear his seat belt because he had to lean so far forward to operate the power levers during the drop. As they came off the drop, the captain called for power, and the power didn't increase. He glanced down at the power levers to find that there were no hands on them, and then glanced back at the flight engineer's seat to find the FE was gone.

The turbulence had thrown the FE out of his seat, against the overheat panel, and then back. On the way down he missed his seat. He was then thrown upward against the ceiling of the flight deck, narrowly missing the open overhead hatch. On the way down he missed the flight deck, hitting the stairs that lead into the cargo bay (C-130). He wrapped his arms around the legs of the first sling seat at the bottom of the stairs and held on.

I roomed with him that night in Albuquerque. He was sore, bruised. He looked like he'd been in a gang fight. None too happy.

What's the worse-case scneario with turbulence? The aircraft can break up.

Will that happen with you on board? No.

The situations in which you fly on an airliner are very different. The situation I just described was severe and extreme turbulence; we spent much of our time flying in those kind of conditions. In an airliner operation, you don't. In fact, seldom is anything more than "light chop" experienced. It's a little disconcerting when sitting in the passenger section of the airplane...but it's not dangerous in the least.

In daily airline operations, what we see as a "rough ride" isn't remotely close to turbulence that presents any kind of hazard. We still take it very seriously, though. Passenger comfort comes into play long before turbulence becomes dangerous...so we're passing messages back and forth in flight between aircraft and with air traffic control, looking for reports of the best ride, best altitude, etc.

Most of the time when you're in cruise in an airliner and you experience turbulence, what you're feeling is air rubbing on air. A current of air, much like a current of water, is moving next to faster or slower air...or air moving in a different direction. Where currents of air moving in different directions meet, a boundary of turbulence sometimes develops. It's a little like the swirling or eddy's you see in a stream, and the result is very much the same as if you were to ride down the stream on a raft or small boat. The ripples and bumps you might feel on the raft are akin to what you experience in the airplane. You can feel them, but they're not dangerous. If you think about what's going on, it's nothing more than a very sturdy airplane moving through air.

I described a worse-case scenario above. I realize you're looking for comfort and solace, and a worse-case scenario isn't it. However, it's honest...yes, turbulence can do bad things. No, you won't be exposed to the kind of turbulence that can do bad things. Hopefully that's the comforting part. There's dangerous turbulence, and then there's uncomfortable turbulence. Uncomfortable turbulence for most airline operations is any turbulence at all...we really do try hard to avoid it...but we're operating in the atmosphere, and it's a turbulent place.

Another way to think about it is riding on a car along a rough road. On a washboard dirt road, one might feel like the bumps and jolts are going to take the car apart. If one isn't careful, I suppose that's possible in theory. But the car is taking hard bumps from solid objects, over and over. In the air, it's a different story. There aren't any hard bumps; it's all air. Some bumps may feel hard, but all that's out there is air. Air isn't hard. The airplane has inertia and mass; it passes through the air and leaves it behind, much like turbulence.

When I was a teenager, I began spraying crops. We refer to it as aerial application, or crop dusting; using an airplane to dispense agricultural chemicals. I was young, and to keep me in line my employer had me fly formation between two experienced pilots. Me in trail of my boss, and another pilot in trail of me. We flew very close to each other. At each end of the field we would pull up and make a steep turn to return to the same field, going the other way. In that turn, sometimes I would catch the wake of the airplane ahead. The wake around the wingtip is referred to as a wingtip vortice; it's swirling air that can have the effect of moving an airplane sideways, or rolling it. A few times I found this wake in the steep turn, and even though I applied full controls to stop the roll, it pitched me over anyway. This was very disconcerting; we were only 75 to 150' above the ground in the turn to start with.

I expressed my concerns to my boss, a man who had been in the business for many years. Quite frankly, it was making me very nervous. He used two model airplanes to teach formation techniques, and picking up those same model airplanes, he proceded to show me that the airplane had inertia. Even if I flew into a vacum, he said, where there was no more lift and no more support for the airplane (a condition that doesn't really exist, of course)...the airplane still had mass and inertia. It would keep on moving forward until it came to "good air" again.

Sure, bumps occured. But the airplane didn't stop flying because of them. It passed right through, carried there by inertia that meant no matter what the airplane might encounter, it would still be there and flying a moment later when that burble of air was long gone. Just as it is in your airliner. Those aeronautical swirls and eddys that make up turbulence are under the wing for a fraction of a second and gone...the wing doesn't really care, and the airplane keeps on flying all the same. It's just air.

Does it make crews concerned? I don't care for turbulence. I don't like to be uncomfortable any more than you do. I look for places where there is little or no turbulence, and where it's safest to fly. Where it's most comfortable. I slow the airplane down in turbulence for both safety and comfort, and always respect the aircraft limitations by a wide, and healthy margin. Whomever is piloting your airplane on a given day does the same thing.

Take a deep breath. Get some air flowing over you. Look out at a distant point instead of focusing inside the airplane, if you can. Think of something that makes you feel better. Slowly let out that deep breath. Then do it again. The airplane encountered turbulence long before you boarded, and it will long after you leave. Enjoy your stay. You're safe.

[Pilotinmydreams]

But every time we hit turbulence, I just cant get my mind off watching the wing snap...

Help, seriously, because this is one of my only weaknesses and I dont know what to do to make it better....

The Discovery Channel did a series about the making of the Airbus A380 and one of the episodes had a section about stress testing the wings. Have a look at that if you can find it and you'll never worry about them snapping again. They bent the things up to destruction - you'll not believe how far they bent before they finally gave up!

[archieraf]

I am a nervous flyer and unfortunately have to fly quite regularly. Normally I'm travelling alone so don't have a companion to chat to and take my mind off things or grab onto when the going gets tough.

My last flight was on a Wideroe twin prop Dash aircraft, the crew are Norwegian so the first announcements are always made in Norwegian and then followed by a repeat in English. As my grasp of the Norwegian language is not great I rely on the English ones for complete information.

Half way over the North Sea to Norway there was an announcement from the flight deck which sounded different to the more familiar ones I've encountered so I listened up for the version in English. When it came I almost wished that I hadn't as it went along these lines..........."Ladies & gentlemen, we are experiencing a certain amount of icing on the aircraft which is perfectly normal but you may notice some unusual noises as pieces of ice may come off and hit the fuselage which will sound..........then there was a long pause as the member of crew was obviously struggling to find the right phrase in English to explain what it would sound like, before he continued.............something like machine gun fire hitting the fuselage"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a nervous flyer I didn't particularly wish to know what machine gun fire hitting the fuselage would sound like, nor did I have previous machine gun fire hitting a fuselage experience to compare it to - not being a war veteran. However, it did actually make me smile. It also made me think about the airmen who have flown in combat and the things that they had endured which kind of put me in my place a bit and helped me cope better with the flight.

Sometimes laughter really is the best medicine! Thanks to everyone who has shared the way they cope with being a nervous flyer, it all helps.


archieraf

[G SXTY]

something like machine gun fire hitting the fuselage"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's priceless archieraf, thanks for sharing it with us. I fly the same aircraft type (Q400) and will have to remember that line for my own p.a. next time we get prop icing! :ok:

Like most funny noises on aeroplanes, ice being thrown off the propellers sounds a lot more dramatic than it really is. The props on the Dash have electric heating mats which are switched on whenever we are likely to encounter icing conditions. These are very effective, and ice is usually melted before it has a chance to build up. Occasionally however, ice builds quickly enough to form sizeable chunks, which are then thrown off by a combination of heat and centrifugal force. Standard procedure is then to increase prop rpm from cruise to maximum, which prevents ice re-accumulating. All perfectly harmless (you may have noticed that the fuselage has ice-protection panels in line with the props specifically for this) but it can be a bit disconcerting, particularly for nervous passengers.

My advice if you are nervous, or want to know what that funny noise is that spooks you, is to ask the cabin crew if you can visit the flightdeck at the end of the flight. Time permitting, we are all happy to have a quick chat after we've landed, and if we can help put your mind at rest, it's good PR for us and will hopefully make you feel happier next time you fly.

Flying for a living, there's a risk for us pilots of getting a bit blasé and forgetting that some of our passengers fly very rarely - and a few are absolutely terrified by the experience. Those people have my utmost sympathy.

[archieraf]

Glad to be able to add to your repertoire G SXTY :)

Thanks also for your advice and reassurance. I never like to bother the crew as I know they have plenty other things to do and I don't like to draw attention to myself and make a fuss. Much better to sit quietly (terrified) and hope the drinks trolley comes round very soon! A small glass of wine certainly helps the situation for me.

It definately helps when there are announcements to explain anything unusual or if there is going to be a bumpy spell during the flight, then I realise what is going on is normal, know what to expect and it's easier to try and keep calm, so thanks to all crews who do that. What I'm always afraid of is grabbing hold of the person sitting next to me. I almost did that recently when we suddenly hit turbulence, it was the kind that gives you that reflex action to hold on and I almost grabbed the arm of the man next to me instead of the armrest!

I take several flights every other month and some I manage to cope better than others. I do think that the increased security measures and the lack of continuity, even from one trip to the next from the same airport, add to the stress of flying these days. It's much harder to arrive at an airport and feel your able to relax prior to a flight now than it used to be.

One day I WILL enjoy a flight from start to finish.

archieraf

[MNBluestater]

Why are you carrying this "baggage" with you all these years. McDonnell Douglas was bought and merged with Boeing in 1997.

They don't even make DC-10's anymore, not even the McDonnell updated version, the MD-11 anymore, since Boeing bought them. Because they are gas hogs, 727's , DC10's and 747's are being phased out quite a bit, worldwide.

I wouldn't worry too much.

[MNBluestater]

Hi, I am an 8 year flight attendant . As most things in life, knowledge is power. Try at least to learn the basics of flight so you understand how an airplane flies and why it does what it does.

Tell the flight attendant greeting you that you are a first time flyer or skittish flyer and ask to see the pilots and say hi. Usually just putting a face to who's flying the plane is all you need. Just don't chitchat forever, they have preflight work to do, a flight plan to review and checklists to complete.

If I get questions, I tell them what I have picked up through the years, in as plain and simple language as I can, with a few smiles and jokes thrown in, if I can get away with it. You have to be able to read people. I get a piece of scratch paper, I tell them about the concept of lift, I draw a "side view" of a wing , and show the shape of the wing and how lift works. I draw a picture of an aircraft, I again tell them about drag, lift, and thrust, and how thrust pretty much gets the whole thing going, and how there is nothing like it when the aircraft is powering up on takeoff and lets loose. I pretty much avoid gravity, because, duh, people already know about that and that's what they fear anyway.

I tell them about flaps required for takeoff and landing (like how a bird flares before landing) and the spoilers that come up on landing. If I have time, I tell them about the ailerons, rudder and elevator.

As for turbulence, I ask them what they see when they run their hand through the water in the sink or the bathtub--it moves ! Or if they've watched the eddys or rapids in a river. Then I tell them that that is what air is like, it's always moving and that the plane has to fly through that.

As for emergencies, well, the most emergencies that I have had are medical in nature, and thankfully, I have always had medical personnel on board to help with the more serious stuff. I have had two engine shutdowns, precautionary, one for temp and one due to a faulty warning switch in the cockpit. 2 very short emerg briefings as a result, no big deal (in eight years of flying.)

I feel much more comfortable flying than driving to work -- at least I know that the person flying the plane isn't high on drugs, reckless, or listening to their cellphone instead of paying attention to what they're doing. Commercial pilots aren't hired for being daredevils , they're hired for their knowledge of systems, flying, common sense and coolheadedness.

Aircraft these days are highly maintained, the systems have multiple levels of redundancy, and they go through rigorous checks periodically--the whole jet gets almost dismantled in a "heavy maintenance" check. Anytime something is mechanically wrong with the plane, the Captain writes it up in the logbook--his professional responsibility--and the mechanic checks it, fixes it, signs the book that it is fixed --again, his responsibility--and the Captain has to sign off on that. It is a system of checks and balances. This all happens before the aircraft even leaves the gate.

As for weather, well, modern technology is now used to keep airlines away from storms. And even if rough air is involved, the frame is built to flex to accommodate the "bumps"--think of a Popsicle stick vs. a firm plastic tube, what is more likely to break under bending ?

Finally--you can worry, worry, worry, about anything and where does that get you ? A ruined day and fatigue and that's all. I made a pact with God a long time ago, it's all in his hands anyway, and if it's time for him to take me home, well, that's that, I can't do much about it.

So "sit back , relax, and enjoy the flight" -- hopefully that's what flying will bring you next time !

[vendetta]

Please remain in your seat and use the seat belt at all times.
Avoid standing in the aisle or next to the toilets, unless absolute must.

:suspect:Yeah, I'll remain in my seat for 10 hours, sure. And then I end up with a thrombosis when I get off the plane. :ok: It is no good to sit for such a long amount of time, so why are you giving that advise?

Aircraft these days are highly maintained, the systems have multiple levels of redundancy, and they go through rigorous checks periodically--the whole jet gets almost dismantled in a "heavy maintenance" check. Anytime something is mechanically wrong with the plane, the Captain writes it up in the logbook--his professional responsibility--and the mechanic checks it, fixes it, signs the book that it is fixed --again, his responsibility--and the Captain has to sign off on that. It is a system of checks and balances. This all happens before the aircraft even leaves the gate.

Then why are there still plane crashes? Especially in these hard financial times I worry that the airlines cut corners on safety and maintenance... :sad:

[BOFH]

vendetta,

you will find to your cost why BelArgUSA is qualified to make the comments that he has. He did not ask you to remain seated for ten hours, but simply to keep your unbelted time to the minimum in which to remain comfortable.

On my humble boat, it's more complicated. Unless I am entirely confident that it is safe, lifejackets are required to be worn at sea. A sweaty nuisance in a Sydney summer. Less confident still, and it's 'clip on' as well.

BelArgUSA has the small complication that he has one hundred times as many passengers (whom he cannot observe), and that he is going about 550 knots faster than I. All he can see is air - I can see waves. And he has three planes in which he must maintain control - I have just two. Moreover, he has a nattier uniform!

So I guess we are getting off easy, being asked to remain seated if we can help it.

Then why are there still plane crashes?
Because sh!t happens. A child stops breathing during the night. A drunk driver takes out a school bus. A rugby player collapses and dies of a heart attack.

I am unsure of what sort of cotton-wool life you expect, but I'll eat my hat if you die - and you are going to die one day (as is everyone reading this), - in an aircraft crash.

BOFH

[dreamwatch]

Vendetta - I too am a nervous passenger. I also suffer from circulation issues and find sitting for too long extremely uncomfortable (who doesn't? ;) ). I need to walk around the cabin regularly, and when possible stand next to/behind my seat to watch movies etc. However, I do this because I really have to, and the moment I'm back in my seat that belt gets locked tight! BelArgUSA said to keep the time to a minimum, not that you shouldn't get up. :) And remember there are excercises you can do in your seat to help improve your circulation. :)

[Lorena]

Hi,

I am flying next week with Emirates and i am scared to death of flying. I don't know why..but it is since ever. It will be my first long haul flight and it will be great to hear some advices from pilots..:)

Nothing about flying makes sense to me..I have a panic disorder so I do have prescripted medicine....but any advice would be great.....

tnx,
lorena

[PAXboy]

Hi Lorena, welcome to the PPRuNe 'cabin'. We are a fair old mix in here and certainly a number of flight and cabin crew will be along to help, as well as regular passengers such as myself.

You have been brave in admitting your fears and other folks have also posted in this forum. You may find some points to read in the FAQ, which is at the top of the forum page, organised by our Moderator who is Cabin Crew [doffs cap]. Also, the Search function may help you to find other discussion threads from previous months.

I do sympathise about having a phobia. I have one in an (almost) unrelated area and, when it 'appears' in my mind - the fact that I know it to be irrational - is irrelevant, because the fear is still the same. Also, if anyone tells you that you have nothing to fear and that everything will be all right - try not to hit them! It can be very frustrating when people mean well, but just do not understand how powerful these fears can be and that they are very real.

Safe Journey.

[James 1077]

I'm not a pilot or cabin crew but can sympathise with your fear. A good friend of mine was also had a fear of flying and he overcame this by, firstly, doing some research on the internet into the physics of flying and what keeps the plane in the air.

Next he took a few short-haul flights to get used to flying and what everyone is doing around him.

Then he proceeded onto long-haul flights.

Whilst he still isn't the best of flyers (he takes travel sickness pills to help him sleep through most of the flight!) he is a lot better than he was.

There are also some fear of flying courses available which involve a classroom session and a flight where everything is talked through and explained.

My main advice for your flight, however, is to ask for somewhere to sit near the cabin crew and then to let them know about your fear of flying. They should be able to explain much of what happens on the flight (procedures, noises, etc) and should take extra good care of you as well!

Best of luck and I'm sure a pilot will be around soon to add their advice!

[TightSlot]

Welcome Lorena - as kindly and accurately mentioned by PAXboy the SEARCH function on this, or any other internet forum is your friend. I've merged your thread into a pre-existing thread on the same subject and added a permanent link to the forum FAQ.

[SLF3b]

From memory, the average loss rate for western airlines is around one hull per million take offs and landings. On average between a third and a half of the passengers survive a hull loss. So your chance of being involved in an accident is infinitesimally small, and your chance of surviving one is quite good.

You will break before the wings - ask the passengers on the Qantas A330. So even if you are being thrown around the cabin by turbulence it is very unlikely the air frame will suffer structural damage.

When my son was about three we were on a flight that encountered severe turbulence and he asked why the plane was bouncing around. I told him that, like small boys, a happy plane could not keep still.

[deltayankee]

I don't think that logic and statistics are very helpful; fear of flying is irrational but still very real. In my experience most people find that understanding more about flight reduces their fears, so on this point I agree with MNBluestater in the helpful post at the top of the page.

But I would like to add one extra tip: I have found that most people actually have specific concerns and if they can express these you can deal with them. Once I met someone who looked out the window, saw nothing but clouds and was worried the crew would be lost. A quick visit to the flight deck (pre 9/11), a look at the maps and an explanation about navigation equipment fixed that. Another was afraid an engine would fail and was reassured that the aircraft could fly for hours on one engine. Finally, people who panic when they see wings bend find it instructing to watch the wing test videos on YouTube where you see a test wing bent almosr 90' and it still doesn't break.

[keltic]

Why didn´t I find this issue before?. I am a fearfull one as well, which can cope with it, and fly. My main concern is weather, probably because I live in a pretty nasty airport in winter with some go rounds in my life.

I had a lightning strike in Venice, so I tend to be quite suspicious when I see cloud in our descend. I normally can´t watch outside, until I see the ground.

I have tried not to see the weather forecasts when I fly, and get a soft reading thing when we get into the coulds to land. I would like to know, if all clouds are the same, if all imply possibility of lightning, or simply if some of them can be as soft as cotton. Imaginery is great tool. I mean, closing your eyes, and thinking in nice enviroments, and of course don´t try to control the plane myself. Don´t hold on the arm seats and let yourself float.

I tend to think, the plane is like a dolphin. It has been design for flying, and turbulences is like going floating on a river. I can´t avoid it 100%, but helps me. I have checked one thing. I am scared days before, fear is less while on board. So I tend to block negative ideas. I have pills sometimes.

I hope it can help. PPrune is just fantastic.....the best forum in the web.

[creamegg]

Any tips on how to relax??? Flying from stansted and think im gonna need a tranquilizer dart to keep calm.:{ I have flown 4 or 5 times previous, last time we had quite a bit of turbulence though and it has kinda put me off. We were passing by a big storm at the time, granted.
I think the more knowledge I have about planes and what they can cope with the better I will be.:D I expect the bird just to glide not wiggle and jiggle about. How much shaking can one plane take?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find out what aircraft it will be? :cool:

[13Alpha]

(frequent passenger and former nervous flyer speaking...)

If you travel to Stansted by road your journey will be more dangerous than your flight to Ljubljana. Air travel is extremely safe.

The plane will most likely be an Airbus 319. A modern aircraft with an excellent safety record. Airliners are built to withstand a great deal of turbulence - and if the weather en route or at your destination is forecast to exceed safe limits, your flight would be cancelled or diverted.

If turbulence upsets you, choose a seat in the centre of the plane (over the wings) - that's where the smoothest ride is. Some people prefer a window seat so they can watch the horizon - that can be reassuring if you are nervous, and also help if you tend to get airsick.

For what it's worth, my flight to and from Ljubljana was an extremely smooth one.

And if you are struggling to relax en route, think about your desintation and remember how lucky you are to be travelling to such a beautiful country :ok:

13Alpha

[Tercarley]

I live in the Channel Islands and flying around them in the Trislander is very stressing for my wife since she has only been used to the big jets. She has to have 2 tins of the gin and tonic that you can buy in UK supermarkets before she flies but has now started on Bach Rescue remedy which seems to calm her a bit.

She seems v. apprehensive every time she flies and she will have me getting nervous soon. Mind you sometimes I want to climb over the seats to adjust the engines!!!!!

[G SXTY]

I think the more knowledge I have about planes and what they can cope with the better I will be. I expect the bird just to glide not wiggle and jiggle about. How much shaking can one plane take?

Rest assured, airliners can take more punishment than most pilots will ever see - let alone passengers. Turbulence is uncomfortable and can be quite unpleasant, but is hardly ever dangerous. Us pilots would prefer 'the bird to glide' rather than 'wiggle and jiggle' but remember that we are flying through a dynamic environment. The air is rarely still, and there is usually some turbulence between 'layers' of air, and certainly within convective clouds (the fluffy ones). It's all perfectly normal and routine, and although we'll do our best to avoid the worst bits and give everyone a smooth ride, it's not always possible. Regardless, airliners are built to withstand loads far in excess of anything likely to be encountered in normal service - as this video graphically demonstrates:

YouTube - Boeing 777 Wing Load Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe9PVaFGl3o)

Easyjet are a first class airline, and whether you're on a 737 or an A319, you'll be a whole lot safer than driving up the M11 . . . Honestly, as an airline pilot there are only two things that frighten me; spiders and the drive to work.

[Paul2412]

In response to SNS3Guppy's post early on in this thread:

I was a nervous flyer before reading that post. From the first word to the last you give us passengers the absolute confidence in the aircraft. Not only that, but if something does happen to go wrong, we can guarantee that the people up front are absolute professionals.

Thanks for this, it probably took a while to type out but I for one am very grateful you did :ok:

[PreacherCain]

Hello all... I have de-lurked because I want to thank the crew (both cabin and flight-deck) for their input on this thread (and elsewhere where the intricacies of flying are explained).

I have always been a "nervous passenger" - for no rational reason, like every nervous passenger - and for me personally, having things explained in depth really helps to rationalise the fear. I don't think I will ever fly without said fear, but knowing more about how the aircraft works and what the various noises mean is a great way for me to keep it in its box.

I have also found the littlest things have made me more comfortable; I used to sit in aisle seats (I'm 6'4'' and it's nice to be able to get up for a wander without hassling other people) but have found a window seat makes me far calmer. I have to fly short-haul about twice a month with work, and occasionally I'll see a sunrise or similar which is so gob-smackingly beautiful I forget to worry about the potential for fiery doom. Flying on my own, I always try to let the cabin crew know (as lightheartedly as possible) that I'm feeling a bit edgy - and I can say that in all the flights I've taken in my life, with a wide variety of carriers, I've never encountered cabin crew who have failed to reassure me. :ok:

As to the question (admittedly from ages ago!) about airlines cutting corners on maintenance in order to reduce costs, I choose to believe that any sane operator will recognise that the reputational damage from a culpable failure of maintenance leading to a fatal accident would FAR outweigh the financial cost of doing the job right. I also reflect on the number of people with whom I share the road who will, for example, think nothing of bunging cheap, rubbish "Ditch-Hunter" tyres on their car to save a few bob. Even under those circumstances, people very rarely come a cropper given the number of journeys they undertake*.

Anyway - what started asan expression of gratitude for the information above has mutated into discursive rambling. Thank you once again, one and all. :)

* I am weird in this regard. Someone up there asked whether you check tyre pressure, coolant, oil and brake fluid levels for every drive. Um. Yes. Yes I do. :bored:

[InSeat19c]

Just wanted to echo what others have said, which is a big "Thank You!" to the pilots and crew for their reassuring and detailed posts.

Having recently seen one too many "Air Crash Investigation" type programmes recently, the thought of getting on a plane now is giving me that feeling of pending doom !

Thanks again for taking the time to listen to and to answer what must seem like some rather daft questions, it really does help people like me !

[apaddyinuk]

You can fly with the absolute best (BA, Air France, AA etc etc) or you could fly with the perceived worst in the industry (Yemenia, All those ones on the euro black list etc etc) the point is THEY ALL CAN CRASH!

BA have had some scary situations the last few years, Air France...well they have a catalogue of disasters going back as far as the late 80s and well AA are just unfortunate but I suppose their size does sort of highlight the statistical aspect!

No matter how good the airline if something happens your time is up. Be more afraid of crossing the road or catching swine flu!!! I doubt you will end up being characterised in an episode of Air Crash Investigator just yet!

[InSeat19c]

apaddyinuk

Hi, you're right about the fact that no matter what is done, nothing is without risk and airlines and the pilots can only do their utmost to limit such risk.

The thing is with the ACI series that can put the frighteners on people like me is that when they eventually reveal the cause of the crash, it's often something that seems far too tiny a detail to actually crash a plane.

A case in point is the one I saw recently about the Helios plane where the cabin didn't pressurise as the switch was on manual rather than automatic. A maintenance guy had been checking a report that a rear door wasn't sealing properly so flicked it the switch in the cockpit from automatic to manual pressurisation the previous evening and hadn't flicked it back.

How did something like that get missed in a pre-flight check by the Captain and co-pilot ?

[Bealzebub]

The reality of course is that your chances of being involved in an aircraft accident are incredibly small. Even then the chances of that accident being fatal are significantly smaller. Of course the two places where this is not true are the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Discovery channel!

Where accidents do occur they are very rarely the result of one isolated event. They are usually a result of a whole chain of failures that conspire to cause an event, that any one alternate action might have prevented.

I don't want to make any aditional criticism of the accident in the example you gave, however there were many opportunites for a resolution that for one reason or another simply didn't happen. There are two pilots who check the set up of the instruments and switches prior to every flight. If one misses something, then the back up is that the other pilot will pick up the omission. If that fails then the warning system might alert the crew at some point. If that fails then other resultant events as a consequence, might alert the crew. It is only in the very unusual case of multiple failures to detect and correct, do the markers line up for an incident.

If you will, compare it to an accumulator bet on a horse race. You might win one or two races, but the chances simply become less and less, the more events are required.

[timgill]

I think turbulence is pretty well top of my list of things to worry about when flying. So what I do is this. I recall (how could I forget?) the worst turbulence I've ever been in, which was on a flight from Barcelona to London on a Whisperjet in July a few years ago. Thunderstorms over the Pyrenees, seat belt lights on, cabin crew to seats, and that was only the beginning...

That episode was worth a score of 10, and anything I've experienced since I've marked against that score. I've had an 8 and a couple of sevens, but nothing remotely approaching the Spanish affair - even an hour-long bumpy ride over Afghanistan on the way back from India didn't even come close in terms of intensity.

So whenever we start to bump, even just a bit, I start making a mental score. Most times I never even get to 5, and that's quite bumpy enough!

Another thing I've tried is when I'm on a fast-moving train. Going to the toilet and imagining you're on a plane, and thinking how scared you'd be if the plane was moving around like that, is quite a revelation. True, trains usually only move from side to side rather than up and down as well, but it's not a dissimlar experience.

[keltic]

My main concern is crossing the ITCZ in March. The more I read about the area, the more scared I get. Flying at night makes me quite uneasy. I will be crossing the same area where AF447 went down. I have the feeling that a climatic monster is hidden out there. I know about the weather radars, but the french plane disaster makes me think why, why, why....I have tried not think about it, as If it hadn´t occured. But fours before my flight my mind is usually full of dark images.

I have booked first class, Madrid-Rio de Janeiro, just to feel more relaxed and during the day, but I am really scared about flying back at night on the 5th april from GRU. I know probably Iberia planes cross the area more than anyone else, and that they know how to handle with the situation, but however I am not happy about it. I have talked to a flight attendant who crosses the area regularly and she keeps me telling that she never had encountered a strong turbulence. So it´s relieving. I can cope well with flying now, but I don´t have information enough about this area, and I am getting quite obsessed with it.

I think any turbulence in the area, or lightening around will make think about AF. I will try to sleep, some pills as well before getting into the ITCZ.

[bunkrest]

Although I spent many years as cabin crew and come from an aviation family I can completely understand peoples phobia. I've been through lots of turbulence, many technical issues and almost had a full evacuation at one point. However knowing a little about aerodynamics, how a plane functions in normal and non normal situations is what gave me the confidence that I was not going to end up as a charcter in air crash investigations!

The reason I understand phobia is that I experienced it first hand and it completely took me unaware. Put me in a 747 with an engine failiure and I would be right as rain - I'd know exactly what the pilots would be doing and that the aircraft was not going to fall from the sky.

However when my brother was doing his training to become a commercial pilot he offered to take me for a spin in a cessna - ( a very small single engined light aircraft). Whether it was the fact it was my 'baby' brother at the controls or that you could feel every bump, twang and thump I don't know but I can remember looking over the cowling wishing I was firmly back on terra firma. As we levelled out he casualy remarked that the engine was running a little roughly, knitted his brows he started talking through what might be the problem. I knew logically that even if we lost the engine, he'd get the nose down, keep the air speed up, wouldn't stall the thing and that there were loads of large, even fields below us...however I was more than a little anxious. As things transpired everything was fine, we landed back at the little airfiled and I jumped out making a mental note never to fly on anything with less than 150 seats ever again!

I think what saved me from completely hyperventilating in that little cessna was knowing something about what makes a plane stay in the air and a little about the instrumentation. With heavy jets things are hugely more complex, but knowing for example that there is a TCAS system that prevents mid air collisions- that even if its a really bad day in the office and a 747 looses all its engines the plane will still fly and is controlable.

My advice is to step away from air crash investigation and just do a little research! Cabin crew are always good to talk to if you are nervous. I've sat and chatted to many, many nervous flyers and on some occasions when we've been going through turbulence have strapped myself in next to them for a bit of moral support! :)

[InSeat19c]

That's good advise, Bunkrest, to stay away from the ACI type programmes. The one I saw on the Helios plane really sent me over the edge I can tell you !

It's great to hear that you take your passengers' concerns so seriously, it may sound silly but it would never occur to me to tell one of the cabin crew that I can be a nervous flyer - although I've managed a flight from Heathrow to Delhi and back on my own before, so I don't let it floor me totally !

[Hampshire Hog]

In my experience, talking to the cabin crew usually helps. If they can, they'll offer you a good seat - occasionally they'll even offer you an upgrade if there's space. They'll generally come and talk to you during the flight and check you're alright. It helps to know there's someone linked to the aircraft crew who knows your problem!

Please see my comments in the new link for this FAQ regarding sensationalist, incorrect reporting of aviation incidents in even the quality press. They intend to grab headlines and readership, at the cost of inaccuracy, un-evidenced speculation and fueling the fears of the enormous numbers of people who have some level of fear about flying. HH

[PAXboy]

I've looked up this old thread to place a link to a TV programme listed on a Tube that You might know.

This prog is not technical and for some in this forum, basic and frustratingly lacking in detail! BUT the language used to explain is the kind that the non-technical person will readily understand. It shows what happens on a 'D' check for a 747-400. I Think it will be helpful to the concerned passenger to see how rigorous a check this is and to know that every aircraft - of all types - goes through a sequence of A/B/C/D checks in their working life. Obviously, the example here is a BA machine and shows the best of what can be done.

It lasts an hour but I think it will be interesting and there was one fact I learnt that I did not know before! So that means my anorak is in good condition. :8
British Airways Boeing 747-400 in D-Check - YouTube

If that does not work, go to the Tube of You and search for:
British Airways Boeing 747-400 in D-Check

[FlyingGoggles]

Resurrecting this a little bit, to add my name to the "nervous flyer" list. I'm better than I was, because I did something that, even a good few months after the fact, I still think is crazy.

I made a film about light aircraft and GA flying. I thought that if I knew more about flying, and met people who do it purely for fun, I wouldn't be as nervous on a large passenger aircraft.

It worked. I still don't like turbulence (makes me feel sick, and do feel a little bit out of control) and I'm always nervous before a flight, but I'm definitely better than I was :)

[VS-Toga]

To the nervous pax on here:

I do not want to worry you, as, as an example, I had 8 driving lessons before being let loose in a car. It takes c. 1500 hours to get an ATPL!!!

So, qwe are trained pro's, fear not.

But if you're still nervous, knowing you've done everything you can, can help you- Here's some things to do to help you.

1. The majority of aircraft 'incidents' take place not in the sky, but on the ground! Mostly smoke and fire related.
2. Do not, for one minute, underestimate, the effect of smoke and fire in these situations. Withing seconds, your eyelids will seal due to the plastic fumes and within a few more, you'll asphixiate.
3. Re above- 2 key things you can do. a) count precisely the seat backs fore and aft towards the emercency exits. Remember these, because if you have an incident, panic will ensue and it'll be as dark as a dark night on the dark side of the moon! b) This sounds silly, but it's true. Carry a large clear plastic bac (ziplock perfect). If smoke and fire happen, shove it over your head. it'll give you about a minute of O2 and it will prevent the plastic in the fumes sealing your eyelids up.
4. LISTEN TO THE CABIN CREW. They are trained professionals, not glorified waiters and they will do their job to the bitter end. I know that.
5. If you don't believe me re above, google Airtours incident Manchester. 90 seconds to destroy a perfectly good BAC 111.

[Bealzebub]

5. If you don't believe me re above, google Airtours incident Manchester. 90 seconds to destroy a perfectly good BAC 111

It was a 737-200 and given the explosive disintegration of the engine combustion chamber, "perfectly good" isn't a particularly apt desciption of it!

Carry a large clear plastic bac (ziplock perfect). If smoke and fire happen, shove it over your head. it'll give you about a minute of O2 and it will prevent the plastic in the fumes sealing your eyelids up.

It isn't a smoke hood, nor is it really a good idea. It doesn't contain any more Oxygen than the ambient air does when you put it over your head. It will (assuming any kind of seal actually exists) quickly start to suffocate you, and bcome hot and dirty. Smoke rises, and that includes into inverted plastic bags. Particulates are likely to be attracted to plastic bags, thereby quickly disorientating the hapless wearer. Best advice would be to cover your nose and mouth with a cloth or handkerchief and get down low below the smoke, which will obscure visibility from the roofline downwards. That is why escape lighting is placed on the floor.

Perhaps you should listen to the cabin crew a bit more! ;)

[ExXB]

VST your advice is as helpful as o'leary's advice about seat belts.

[overstress]

Carry a large clear plastic bac (ziplock perfect). If smoke and fire happen, shove it over your head. it'll give you about a minute of O2

Dangerous advice I feel.

[FlyingGoggles]

Yeah, those ziplock bags usually have messages stating NOT to put them over your head, because they can suffocate you, pretty quickly. := :ugh:

Now, if someone can tell me how to make that "sinking" feeling just after take off feel less weird, I'd appreciate it! (I know it's my brain/inner ear/eyes having a disagreement, but it feels freaky!)

[Lookleft]

It takes c. 1500 hours to get an ATPL!!!


True but you don't need to have an ATPL to be a co-pilot on an airliner! Statistically those who listen to the pre-departure briefs are more likely to survive an accident. So don't try and look supercool and read the paper, pay attention each and every time so that in the event of an emergency your reponses are automatic.



Now, if someone can tell me how to make that "sinking" feeling just after
take off feel less weird

That weird feeling may in fact be the flaps being retracted in which case it will feel like a "sinking" feeling. Next time if you are near a window have a look outside and see if it coincides with the flaps (at the back of the wing) retracting into the wing.