Leave your GPS at home

[modelman]

I'm sure a great many of people here still complete a PLOG with track lines,times etc but if they are really honest,once they strap in then it's GPS all the way.
I include myself in the above,but I have started to sharpen up my DR skills by not switching it on.( have yet to leave it at home as I see no need to put extra pressure on oneself if the DR session goes a bit squirrely).
This has been precipitated by a recent GPS outage when I was in less than perfect vis.(love those VOR/DME's)

Anybody else keep their GPS turned off?

MM

[gfunc]

In the aircraft I rent they have the nav/com radio built in (Garmin 430), so technically no; but I do zoom in all the way and try and navigate by map and dead reckoning, since its more challenging and fun.

The only exception is near the boundaries of controlled airspace, where I use the GPS to double check I'm not infringing. It's poor airmanship not to.

Gareth.

[IO540]

I fly 100% on the GPS.

An IFR panel mount unit is always (unless doing a local bimble along the coast) programmed with the route, and when flying VFR I also have the real VFR printed chart running on another GPS (a tablet computer) so I can see airspace etc.

I would not fly without GPS. Too easy to make a mistake and end up busting CAS, etc. Flying should be enjoyable, not full of worry about where exactly one is.

[steveking]

I fly from the south east were controlled airspace is every where and my aircraft can quite happily cruise at 150 + kts. I have VOR kit in the aircraft and on longer flights back up what the GPS says with VOR's as I have had it go off twice, both times were ariel probs as my 296 is panel mounted and uses the remote lead. I know carry the original antenna in the aircraft just incase. Although DR can be satisfying Im not sure I'd like to rely on it in the airspace enviroment we have. I suppose if I were on a flight where I knew I was well away from controlled airspace then it could be fun to switch it off but as for leaving it at home Hmmm probally not.

[FREDAcheck]

I carry GPS most of the time, and have it switched on. However, I never rely on it as the sole means of navigation. In VFR/VMC, I make sure that 100% of the time I know where I am by eye. When IMC or out of sight of the surface, I make quite certain my route and waypoints can be navigated entirely by radio nav.

Frankly, GPS is more accurate and more reliable than the VOR equipment in the planes I fly (and much more so than NDB/ADF navigation). But even GPS fails. The most common failure (for me) is inaccurate programming of the route or the waypoints, or other finger trouble. And I update the database only every couple of years, so airspace boundaries are not be relied on.

My policy, except on local flights, is always to have two independent methods of navigation. But that's just me. I'm not going to argue with anyone that says they always/never use GPS/DR/radio/INS/divine-guidance or whatever.

[stocker]

I never keep mine off.
Its always there for reference if the vis is not great otherwise I never look at it.
Scotland is a doddle to find your way around in good vmc but I imagine some of the flatlands of the south would be a challenge when things all look the same. I`d use it for nav down there all the time.

[dublinpilot]

I never fly with the GPS off. I do however, on the occasional flight, turn it away so that I can't easily see it.

Any doubt though, and I will refer back to it.

I would not advocate turning it off, but keeping it onboard as a backup. This is for the simple reason, that GPS's find it more difficult to get a fix when moving fast. (This is particularly important with non Sifi III models, which is most of the portable aviation units.)

Combine this with a poor view of the sky in many GA machines, and perhaps the unit not having been switched in in 8 weeks (which means an old satelite position database) means that you might struggle to get a fix when you most need it.

For these reasons, I tend to turn it on, getting a good 3d fix, and then turning it away where I can't see it, if I want to test my dr skills.

dp

[172driver]

GPS always on and database up to date. On longer flights, also VOR and NDB (the a/c I usually fly has two VORs). For amusement, always do some VOR triangulations or NDB tracking.

There are a couple of good reasons not to switch your GPS off when flying.

1) as stated already, especially handhelds w/o external antenna can have trouble locking on to the satellites - and the next-to last thing you want is having to wait anxiously for the unit to position itself

2) the LAST thing you want, however, is your own lack of currency with the unit. I certainly wouldn't want to have to think too hard about the various GPS functions when I really, really need it. The more complex the unit, the more 'currency' is required. I sometimes fly an a/c that's 430 equipped. As do this rather rarely I make sure to put in a sim session for the 430 before going flying (this is a free training CD from Garmin).

Call me a stickler, but I try to remain current with ALL the equipment I have in the various a/c I fly. Why anyone would want to fly with a navaid available and *off* is somewhat beyond me.

[scooter boy]

GPS (x2) - on
autopilot - on except for takeoff and landing
TCAS - on
VOR/DME as backup and for ILS
eyes outside of the cockpit (except when in IMC)

I carry a spare handheld VHF radio, EPIRB and handheld GPS

You really mustn't feel guilty about relying on new fangled technology.

Ded reckoning is for the PPL solo X-C.

SB

[AfricanEagle]

I don't have a gps.

Been around the whole of southern Europe using map and compass, never been lost, so far.

[englishal]

I like to cover up the oil pressure and oil temperature gauges. I find it satisfying to listen to the engine note and use that alone to determine if the engine is operating ok. Never had an engine failure yet....

;)

[JW411]

I went solo in 1957. I went on to have a professional career lasting 48 years. I have witnessed the arrival of the first flight directors, LORAN C, triple INS, triplex autoland systems etc etc.

I have seen the flight deck population go down from five to just two.

Throughout all of this I have embraced modern developments in so far as I have assessed the new equipment that became available as to whether they make my life and my flying better or not.

Whilst all that was going on, I managed to keep touch with my beginnings and ran a gliding club in my spare time and flew every light aircraft that I could get my hands on.

I have now retired from professional flying and (some years ago) bought myself a spamcan. I fitted it with such equipment as a Garmin 430, DME, Mode S etc so that I can, if necessary, have a full IFR capability. I don't have all this gear fitted so that I can get myself into trouble but rather to get me out of trouble!

Now then, I will use everything that I can to make a safe flight. Therefore, I ALWAYS make a manual flight plan (using a whiz wheel etc) so that I always have something to fall back on just in case someone pulls the 3-pin plug out of the wall.

However, I ALWAYS programme the Garmin 430 and use it and its capabilities.

I always map read as I go along and, after 50 years of flying, I can also say that there are large parts of UK that I don't even need a map to tell you where I am.

Nevertheless, if you want to stay out of trouble, then the only possible way to stay out of trouble is to adopt the belt and braces method.

Use everything that is available to you and use it intelligently.

[Tone]

I'm with englishal on this one, to make it even better wear an active headset so that you have to feel any problems through the seat of your pants. I also think it's a good idea to turn the radio off while VFR.
I've got a deaf Father in law who sometime wears a switched off hearing aid, I guess he just enjoys winding us up.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Anybody else keep their GPS turned off?
I don't usually bother to turn it on.

I especially don't turn it on if I'm in an aircraft with a large moving map and teenage boys for passengers, they'll just stare at the screen the whole time and not look out of the window.

Yes I draw the lines on the map, but basically I follow VORs.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I usually fly with a GPS; I'd say that on about 20% of local flights, and 50% of cross-country flights I use it.

I always have a PLOG on my kneeboard; I'd say that I always fill it out for trips I don't know well already, and most times I use it fairly fully. I usually use the whizz wheel for doing most of the calculations.

I fairly often use GPS for primary navigation, especially at the last bit of finding a small difficult-to-spot grass airfield. I never use GPS for sole navigation.

G

[S-Works]

Use GPS as primary Nav. Always draw a route on the map with frequencies, wind etc. Never use the whizz wheel or other flight computer, perfectly capable of applying rule of thumb calcs for wind correction etc.

Also managed to navigate around all of Europe and never been lost once or infringed airspace.

Why on earth people think making life difficult for themselves makes them a better aviator is quite beyond me.

[jollyrog]

I'm still fairly new, with 150 hours and just got my first SEP revalidation.

Until about 30 hours ago, I didn't use a GPS but I bought a Garmin 496 and have taken it on every flight since, except my IMCr lessons.

I still do a full map mark up and plog before every flight, but programme the GPS for the routes. I still note times and ETAs for my waypoints on the plog, just as I was taught to, so really the GPS is there as an aid, not primary navigation.

Last month, I was flying from Waterford to Kerry when I realised that my plog was complete nonsense. First time I've messed one up and this one was rubbish. Then, for the first time, I relied on the GPS. I didn't actually feel that comfortable with it. Yes, everything was fine and Irish airspace is easy, but there (should have been) something low-tech and failure free about the paper. I kept thinking that things would get interesting if the GPS lost signal or failed.

I like my paper. I triple checked the plog for the return journey that day, before leaving Kerry.

[tom_ace]

Used to rely on GPS a lot, until one froze and I happily trundled into birminghams airspace. Still use it, along with VOR, DME, NDB, and by looking out the window. It's an invaluable bit of kit.

[Cusco]

I always fly with a GPS (and a spare turned on in the flight bag)

I also put waypoints in the RNAV , follow VOR/DMEs , draw lines on the map and have a fully wound stopwatch too.

A 'turned off GPS' in the cockpit is the same as runway behind you when you start the take off roll.

Cusco

[steveking]

Talking of GPS's. I just saw the new Garmin 695 wowww.

[steveking]

Talking of GPS's. I just saw the new Garmin 695 wowww. I'm sure no owner would be able to bring themselves to turn that off, on a x channel flight I'm sure they'd make it wear it's own life jacket. :-)

[S-Works]

However I maintain that it should not be used as a primary means of navigation - particularly for the new PPL such as myself who should be developing good DR skills

Rubbish. It is exactly that dogmatic attitude that leads to problems. Successful and safe flying is is about using a seamless blend of all of the tools available to you.

[Final 3 Greens]

CliffordFW

When interacting with Bose, you would do well to remember that you have two ears and one mouth.

He is one of the hgiher time individuals in the PPL world and talks sense; he also bites, so you are warned ;)

[Islander2]

Well, hasn't the CAA's two decades of inept 'policy' on GPS got a lot to answer for! Thanks directly to their 'it's the work of the devil' attitude, the UK (unlike the USA and Australia, for example) is still routinely turning out new PPL's that believe the safety/CAS-infringement case lies in favour of NOT using the GPS for primary navigation. Unbelievable. And wrong by a mile! And that's way more than a decade after the more enlightened parts of the world have been using GPS not only for primary en-route navigation, but also as the sole aid in some instrument approaches.

The reliability of GPS navigation versus the reliability of map/compass/stopwatch/DR navigation is today massively tilted in favour of GPS, given equivalent training on the two systems.

Yes, GPS fails (but nothing like as often as the average human fails with DR), so we unquestionably need to retain a level of competence with an alternative method. But the way to do that is by a few hours of continuation training each year accompanied by a safety pilot or instructor, not to only ever navigate by that method. On another thread, I referred to an analogous situation in IFR flying. Long flights in hard IMC are undoubtedly safer with the autopilot engaged, yet some argue that these should be hand flown to maintain the skills required for when the autopilot fails (I'm unclear as to why those same people don't fly with the AI and HSI/DI covered up to maintain the partial-panel skills they will need for when the vacuum pump fails!). In effect, this is arguing that something like 300 to 500 hours of significantly less safe flight should be undertaken to safeguard against 1 hour of even less safe flight. Again, the answer is enhance the overall safety by a combination of the two, with instructor-led continuation training to maintain an appropriate level of retained skill of the back-up method.

For the avoidance of doubt, nothing I've said here should be read as an attack on those that choose to use map/compass/stopwatch/DR for primary navigation for either the fun or the challenge. From time to time, I also fall into your group, and I would defend your right to the hilt do that, providing it is done with sufficient competence to avoid CAS infringement. My objection is the persistently incorrect view of pilots emerging from the UK flying training scene that it is the more prudent way to proceed.

[AfricanEagle]

I simply said that I don't own a gps. Do you want to shoot me?

I learnt to fly without and am comfortable doing so not having one.

Nothing to do with being a better aviator or making my life difficult. I'll never be a skygod like some pilots here, I just try to learn something new from everybody I fly with, be him/her a new mint PPL or a seasoned instructor.

I believe the original post to underline not being total dependent on gps.

I agree. It is like a drug: you get so used to it you can't do without.

That at least is my experience with the majority of pilots I have flown with.

Ask them where they are without looking at the gps and often they can't relate to the ground below. Nobody looks outside, unless when over a big town indicated on the screen.

Or moments of pure panic if the the gps loses signal.

I agree it is a great back up, part of the navigation package available, but it is only a part.

[OneIn60rule]

And none of our planes has one.

One out of 3 people I know has a really expensive portable GPS that just does far too much.

An all moving map is sufficient at least I would think so.

Use everything available to you. Be it DME, NDB, VOR, DR or just plain request position fix if you think you are just a bit on the wrong side.

I would advocate the use of GPS if you are headed into new regions (like say overseas, Germany, Spain, Iceland etc).

1/60

[AfricanEagle]

Like an instrument rating, a GPS is best used regularly, or one will be unable to make best use of it.

I agree completely.

But how many PPLs fly regularly enough to use it to its best?

Or, most often, because they don't fly regulary, how many PPLs depend on gps as primary navigation tool because rusty with basic navigation rules?


Edit: I believe I have replied to a post that has been in the meantime deleted.

[S-Works]

Ask them where they are without looking at the gps and often they can't relate to the ground below. Nobody looks outside, unless when over a big town indicated on the screen.

That is my point. Navigation is not about a single method. It is about blending everything at your disposal to ensure that you have as close to perfect a situational awareness picture as possible. Remove one of the elements and all you suffer is a degradation of the picture not a total loss unlike the reliance on a single method. DR is an excellent skill and when teaching I try to help even the old hands polish it up. But it is not the only tool.

I still draw a line on a map and an abbreviated plog written on the map and continuously cross reference my position using all of the aids available to me, this includes looking outside the window all of the time. It is one of the very reasons I go flying, to admire the view.

More spatial thinking and less dogma would see far less problems.......

[PompeyPaul]

Pesronally I don't fly GPS just because DR and VOR tracking works for me. I flew with somebody with GPS once and was somewhat alarmed how he rigidly stuck to it and took every single piece of information unquestioningly. To the extent where on the M25 between Heathrow & Gatwick (where I religiously stick to the motorway to keep you out of CA) he was using the GPS and cutting bits of the motorway out.

Had the device malfunctioned, even to a limited half mile accuracy, he would've infringed.

I know all the pro-GPS'ers will be saying well that's just bad airmanship or whatever, but we are all human. When the device is telling you something so strongly you tend to believe it.

That said, I've got a PSP & GPS with me. Just incase, I ever became temporarily unsure of location it would provide an extra fix.

Also, being inexperienced at around 100 hours, GPS is just something else for me to mess about with in the cockpit that dilutes my attention further. I've never needed one, why add it ?

[IO540]

But how many PPLs fly regularly enough to use it to its best?

There lies the "problem". Using a GPS is generally just switching it on. After a short while, the moving map pops up and you can see where you are.

It isn't some crazily complicated gizmo which will get you overhead Heathrow if you press the wrong button. Well, not if you actually look at the map on it, and reference it to the printed chart on your lap.

IMHO, the vast majority of anti-GPS pilots have never actually used one, or never used one that is even half good. (The £100 camping-shop types don't count here).

The next step is to learn how to program a route into the unit, but that is also trivial, for anybody with the brain to start the engine and fly somewhere.

[Fuji Abound]

I really don’t know what all the fuss is about.

This is what I do.

I use the FMS for a quick bit of route planning. I always avoid CAS. I always select a descent profile and the expected IAP. I get the METARS and TAFS on my notebook that is permanently connected to the 3G network in the aircraft and also the weather radar. If there is anything nasty on the radar I plan to route around. I have had trouble with those pesky PAX leaving the doors unlatched in the past. Now I leave that to the MDF which tells me whether they are closed. The aircraft is kept in a private hangar so I don’t usually bother with much of a walk around as I know how I left it. I can be off the ground in 10 minutes and well on my way into Europe. Once upon a time it took me 45 minutes, and that was without all the planning.

I find just after take off (usually about 150 feet) I engage the autopilot - which has three axis and is fully coupled to the moving map GPS. I don’t need flaps for the take off, and I find if I set 75% power this does for the climb and cruise. I just chop the power back to 35% for the descent and IAP. That way I don’t have to fiddle with the power lever until I take over half way down final.

I don’t bother with the radio. After all I always plan to be outside CAS, I have the mode S turned on so others can avoid me, and anyway, I read if I fly my usual 200 hours a year I will need 50 lifetimes before I have a collision. I will take those odds, thank you.

Anyway the autopilot does a far better job than me, as does the MDF. In fact I don’t bring a map with me any more. It was a nuisance carrying the plates and airport diagrams as well. I have all these on the MDF. In fact many years ago I scared myself silly once when I hadn’t updated the paper plate. I found out after that Mr Garmin had kindly updated the MDF for me in the last monthly cycle, so all was well.

All in all I can now get some work done during the flight, review a few papers or read a couple of journals. I usually like to take over on final at 500 feet, Mr Garmin has so thoughtfully provided a rather nice voice to remind me, and I have found that I can change this to a female voice - so very thoughtful.

I simply couldn’t make the flight without the GPS and the other gizmos. After all how would I know where I was? Anyway most of the time I cant see out of the window so that’s not a lot of help. Thank goodness I can just leave the fluid running to keep the ice in check for the whole flight.

All in all I couldn’t fly if they turned off the signal - but then again there is not much chance of that now the good old yanks have given us all a very comprehensive assurance that the system is safe in civil hands. As safe as houses as my bank manager said to me last year.

[DenhamPPL]

When I am flying alone I like to keep the GPS on to show me my current position purely as a back up to my map nav and plog. I think problems can start to occur when inexperienced pilots start "programming" routes in and rely on the GPS to guide them rather than sticking to the map as the main source of navigation.

When we're doing the traffic news from our spotter aircraft the GPS takes on a totally new meaning and our Bendix is fantastic for showing me road names and numbers in a hurry. Totally invaluable!

Adam

[S-Works]

When will people understand. BLEND not backup. Use all of the tools TOGETHER if you want to be a safe and efficient aviator.

Draw a line on a chart, put the line into the GPS, cross check the 2 against each other, route via navaids or plot some cross cuts. Fly the plan by looking out the window, reference the mark 1 eyeball to the map then cross check against the GPS, see if the Navaids are coming in as expected.

If anyone of those sources of data fail then you have a degraded awareness not a LOST awareness which will ensue from the loss of a sole navigation system.

All this tosh about keeping a GPS switched on in the bag is just to salve individuals conscience's about not doing it the 'proper way'. A GPS in a bag is as much use as fuel left in the bowser. When it goes wrong the last thing you need is to pull the 'hidden' GPS out and start trying to work out where you are. Use all of the tools on every flight, learn to interpret what they are saying to you, work in harmony with them. Then you won't need to 'keep it in the bag just in case' because you will have learnt how to use everything in harmony.

[Bravo73]

I really don’t know what all the fuss is about.

This is what I do.

<snip>


You're just trolling now, aren't you FA? :eek:

[Final 3 Greens]

When will people understand. BLEND not backup. Use all of the tools TOGETHER if you want to be a safe and efficient aviator.

Completely agree Bose.

Some of the comments on this thread may me think about the sad souls out there who really believe that an IMC rating will get them out of trouble, when they don't use it between renewals.

The same is true of a GPS, to get the most out of it it must be included in mix of tools and techniques and the user must be trained properly, current and confident in using it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Well I started with the need for a amphibious single engine two place airplane to use in a new business venture.

Ended up having Aviat build us a Husky A1B with the six mechanical flight instruments mounted in the center of the panel and basic engine instruments which we got rid of and replaced with the full E.I. engine analyzer and engine instruments.

For communications we have a Garmin Radio and Transponder plus intercom and a hand held VHF as backup.

For navigation we have an Ipac PDA with Anywheremap including WX weather on the top center of the instrument panel that folds down flat for take off and landing and when not in use.

In the back we have a Lowrance 600 handheld.

Combined with a map that gives us all the tools needed for safe accurate navigation.

No need for ADF or VOR for the simple reason they are obsolete considering what we use.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Some of the comments on this thread may me think about the sad souls out there who really believe that an IMC rating will get them out of trouble, when they don't use it between renewals.
My instructor is telling me that I'm just about ready for the (initial) IMCR test. I expect I have a reasonable chance of passing the test, but most of the training has been done in VMC with foggles on and I don't feel at all comfortable that I'll be happy bouncing around inside cumulous solo. Are there many people who get the IMCR and then don't really like using it at all?

[englishal]

Bose talks sense. This is what I do....

I plan the route on the PC and print out a PLOG which uses real weather and timings. I then program the GPS to match the PLOG (I normally use waypoints in the dB, e.g. Navaids, VRPs, Fixes etc... and not manually entered). I then fly the route and IF the gps were to fail, I'd have the plog as backup. I constantly reference the paper chart to make sure I am where I think I am and that the GPS is ok, and that is it.

I need to have the GPS on though or else I don't get me traffic alerts :}

[flyvirgin]

How much can you get a decent GPS for.I'm thinking about getting one for a back up if i got lost.
Cheers
Adam,

[S-Works]

Are there many people who get the IMCR and then don't really like using it at all?

Yes. Foggles are just not vision limiting enough to simulate real instrument flight. You will always cheat by looking around them. They are good for teaching the scan and procedure but not good for learning actual blind flying skills.

It is the reason the CAA insist on screens.

Don't worry get the test out of the way and then seek some mentoring. I am happy to come along in real IMC and help. AOPA are working on a mentoring scheme for this exact purpose. The VFR scheme starts in the new year with the IFR to follow.

[HLloyd26]

englishal; Was wondering, do you use a software package that completes PLOGs for you using real weather/timings etc? If so be interested to know what it is.

Cheers

[S-Works]

There are a number of apps that will do it. At the simplest end is Nav Bax and the other and is something like Flitestar, comes in VFR and IFR versions. I use the IFR version with Jepp view for the plates.

[172driver]

The same is true of a GPS, to get the most out of it it must be included in mix of tools and techniques and the user must be trained properly, current and confident in using it.

Totally agree. See also my earlier post (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/349503-leave-your-gps-home.html#post4501180)

[IO540]

do you use a software package that completes PLOGs for you using real weather/timings etc? If so be interested to know what it is.

The only completely integrated program I know of is Jeppesen Flitestar with the Jepp weather add-on subscription. That will generate a plog with wind corrections on it. But this costs money, and I wouldn't use Flitestar for VFR (too clunky).

However, for most GA purposes, one does not need great wind correction accuracy, and in any case the wind forecasts are far from accurate!

For VFR flying, I use Navbox Pro (http://www.navbox.nl) and using this together with some wind data (e.g. from form 214) generates a perfectly reasonable wind corrected plog.

Actually I never enter wind data into Navbox because I use GPS for navigation and that takes care of any wind effect. One just follows the magenta line... Only on very long flights, over 60% of my zero-fuel range, I look at the winds in any detail. So I don't do wind corrected plogs myself. But Navbox will do that nicely; it offers two kinds of plog: a simple one where you enter only one wind for the whole flight, and a more complex one where you can enter a different wind for each leg.

[rauxaman]

I don't get on with GPS, I actually believe I have some sort of electronic dyslexia... I cannot relate to menu screens/options and the like.

But... I can use a slide rule/whizz wheel & a pencil and I have good eye-sight. I do understand radials from VOR's and (after training) I can use ADF/NDB's... this is probably because I was good at "trig" at school.

So, although I did once purchase a "Skymap" I haven't used it for many years... I spent most of my time mucking around with the b***dy thing and ignoring job of actually flying and navigating the aeroplane.

[Nibbler]

Interesting thread.

I'm a new PPL (<150hrs TT) and and was becoming too reliant on GPS, using it as a primary navigation tool rather than a secondary backup as taught. After recently loosing the GPS and returning to map, time and plog I realise just how quickly you loose these basic skills.

After reading many of the posts it leaves me asking - why does it say 'not to be used as a primary form of navigation, VFR use only' in the GPS handbook? And what about the loss of the basic skills a) if the GPS fails, b) for renewals c) if you go on to further training like the CPL?

Right now I'm seriously thinking about replacing the GPS but will it / could it do more harm than good?

[IO540]

why does it say 'not to be used as a primary form of navigation, VFR use only' in the GPS handbook?

Standard legal disclaimer. Total bollox otherwise.

Right now I'm seriously thinking about replacing the GPS but will it / could it do more harm than good?

Get a decent one, with a big screen.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have a question if I were to install and use an ADF as a nav aid should I also trade my new SUV in on a horse and buggy?

[S-Works]

I have a question if I were to install and use an ADF as a nav aid should I also trade my new SUV in on a horse and buggy?

I am a bit lost on that one chuck, care to elaborate a bit more ow it applies to a discussion on GPS?

[what next]

Hello!

...why does it say 'not to be used as a primary form of navigation, VFR use only' in the GPS handbook?

Because obvoiusly the manufacturer did not bother to get the (very expensive!) IFR certification for this specific model of GPS receiver. There are a lot of certified GPS receivers awailable that can be used as primary navigation aid in IFR flight. But, AFAIK, this type of GPS must be permanently installed in the aeroplane (like for example GARMIN GNS430).

And what about the loss of the basic skills ... c) if you go on to further training like the CPL?

If you intend to go ahead and get a CPL, mastering GPS units (and other kinds of electronic flying gadgets) is an absolute _must_. Far more important than compass & stopwatch flying. The little bit of that needed to pass your CPL exam will be brought up to date during your CPL training.
Know how to operate the GNS430 _before_ you take your first IFR or CPL lesson, otherwise you will get behind everything very quickly.

Greetings, Max

[Gertrude the Wombat]

should I also trade my new SUV in on a horse and buggy?
Yer gonna have to do that sooner or later anyway - haven't you heard of global warming and/or the oil running out?

[HLloyd26]

For VFR flying, I use Navbox Pro (http://www.navbox.nl/)

Thanks for that I’ll have a look.

Very interesting read.
I've only got 5 cross country flights under my belt since getting my PPL, had just assumed it was standard practice to keep plugging away with the old PPL nav techniques. Was going to leave it until i got into some proper touring before considering getting one but reading this makes me think it might be irresponsible not to incorperate one into my navigation now as a safety net.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am a bit lost on that one chuck, care to elaborate a bit more ow it applies to a discussion on GPS?

I was commenting on how many pilots still think that the ADF is a useful nav aid in today's world when GPS is so superior there should be no doubt which to use.

An ADF is about as useful for navigation as a horse and buggy is for transportation.

[IO540]

I have a question if I were to install and use an ADF as a nav aid should I also trade my new SUV in on a horse and buggy?

Funny you should ask :)

I once asked a "traditionalist" instructor "if you were flying along and the GPS was telling you that you will die, and the ADF said you will be OK, what will you do?".

His reply was "I would trust the ADF".

had just assumed it was standard practice to keep plugging away with the old PPL nav techniques

No, ditch them the moment you get a chance. Get a decent GPS, read the manual, and you will never look back. Back it up with VOR tracking, if possible.

[Bravo73]

why does it say 'not to be used as a primary form of navigation, VFR use only' in the GPS handbook?

IIRC, its actually because there's probably a single unit, running off a single aerial. No redundancy = no primary IFR navigation.

Ignore the warning at your peril.


(Ooops sorry, what next. Missed your post before I posted mine.)

[HLloyd26]

Get a decent GPS

Out of interest what price bracket would you suggest in order to get a decent GPS for a novice flying VFR?
Cheers

[Mark1234]

Some interesting things here.. someone brought up the 'rest of the world'.. well, being in the "rest of the world", particularly aus as Islander2 mentioned:

We do have GPS NPA out here.. but you have to be using a certified unit, have an IR, AND a GPS approval to do them (GPS is trained/certified like any other navaid - you have to be trained and current with the approaches).

Out in ordinary VFR/PPL world (where I am), you may NOT use the GPS as a primary means of navigation (and that's in the regs).

There are also minimums whereby VFR traffic must plan clear of controlled airspace/PRD areas by up to 5 miles depending on how high you are (lower=closer) - no tracking the edge on GPS (not to say folks don't do it, but..)

I'm in the "if it's there, use it for enhanced SA" camp.. If you can't find your way around controlled airspace without it, you probably shouldn't go (and yes, I'm an ex-pom.. I DO know what the airspace round london looks like.. I still have the chart and use it for scaring small children :) )

I'm also intrigued by the statement that:

The reliability of GPS navigation versus the reliability of map/compass/stopwatch/DR navigation is today massively tilted in favour of GPS, given equivalent training on the two systems.


Surely DR is totally reliable, but has a large error margin (inaccurate), which you should plan for? If you rely on DR to fly 1/2 a mile down the side of a control zone I don't think that's a failure of DR.. the problem is closer to the LH Seat..

GPS on the other hand is accurate, but dogmatic (i.e. if you accidentally program the wrong wpt), and may (unlikely) fail completely? I'd be interested to see what the balance was if you remove 'accuracy' category, and look solely at the failure category.

At the end of the day, it's part of a toolset.. use appropriately. But I do agree with the original poster - if you're relying on it, and letting the other skills slip, you should be taking some remedial action to improve those skills.

[flybymike]

NDBs are gradually being phased out. How long before VORs go as well? and then we ain't going to have no technology to help us except GPS anyway.
(ILS aside which I assume perhaps wrongly , will still be here for sometime to come)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I once asked a "traditionalist" instructor "if you were flying along and the GPS was telling you that you will die, and the ADF said you will be OK, what will you do?".

His reply was "I would trust the ADF".

You are putting us on, surly an instructor could not be that far behind the curve about navigation aids?

Here is a question for all you airplane drivers.

When flying an NDB approach and you also have a hand held aviation GPS running do you fly the GPS track line or try and maintain the track with the ADF needle when the ADF is hunting back and forth due to whatever is causing the hunting of the needle?

Here is another quick one.

When flying towards an NDB that is several hundred miles in front of you would you use a hand held GPS to maintain an accurate track or only use the ADF needle?

[S-Works]

Chuck, I would use GPS every time and do. I tune and ident for a rough cross check error but will use the GPS in preference to the ADF. I am lucky if my NDB work several miles out not several hundred!

[englishal]

englishal; Was wondering, do you use a software package that completes PLOGs for you using real weather/timings etc? If so be interested to know what it is.
I actually use the Jeppesen Internet Flight Planner with Wx subscription (total about 150 euro per year) . As IO540 says it can be a bit clunky but it generates great PLOGs with weather, fuel and timings, and it is dead accurate. All the nav data is always up to date as well. In the UK I may use Memory Map with UK digital charts to initially plan my route as this is 100% accurate (compared to UK charts) whereas Jepp has a slightly different "look and feel".

I also use SkybookGA.co.uk and when I have the Jepp Plog I plug this into Skybook too and generate a Tripkit of all weather charts and notams overlaid on my route. Then I download the datachunk to my cheap-as-chips eTrek GPS as backup. Now if my 496 fails, I still have the route on my eTrek and although no moving map, it doesn't matter, I can reference it to the map. Skybook tell me that soon you will be able to generate a PLOG from the website, which I look forward to..

All this only takes 5 mins once you know where you are going.

[usedtofly]

All this fuss over such a simple thing........................

IFR.........use all the goodies

VFR.......all you need is a chart, stopwatch and compass

what's the big deal?

:E

[Islander2]

what's the big deal?The number of CAS infringements?

[IO540]

When flying an NDB approach and you also have a hand held aviation GPS running do you fly the GPS track line or try and maintain the track with the ADF needle when the ADF is hunting back and forth due to whatever is causing the hunting of the needle?

I'd track the GPS track. Checking the ADF at the start of the inbound leg only.

Here is another quick one.

When flying towards an NDB that is several hundred miles in front of you would you use a hand held GPS to maintain an accurate track or only use the ADF needle?

I'd use the GPS track, but would expect the ADF to be reasonably accurate (you are talking about a very high power NDB there). I find the ADF very accurate over large areas of flat open country e.g. N France.

[BEagle]

Quite right, IO540!

One uses experience to assess whether GPS and 'conventional' information conform and reacts accordingly.

For VFR navigation, I'm a staunch advocate of a map, stopwatch and GPS! Line on map, quick calculation of heading and time using either whizzwheel, abacus, calculator or software, then pop the route into the GPS. Check track/dist is as expected, then enjoy the view maintaining track.

I teach (if I ever get the chance....:hmm:) 'Standard Closing Angle', map and whizzwheel at basic level - but no-one should poo-poo the sensible use of GPS within its limitations.

As I said at a GPS conference recently, "How many of you used your Garmins or Tom-Toms to find this place when you drove here?" I certainly did!

Dinosaurs who view GPS as Satan's Tool will never agree though. But equally, the idiot who rocks up to an aeroplane with his handheld, enters DCT to somewhere without checking route or even NOTAM, then busts airspace and/or the Red Arrows does no favours whatsoever to the huge number of people who use GPS correctly.

[scooter boy]

what's the big deal? The number of CAS infringements?

:DAmen to that Islander 2, reading the reports of CAS infringements is nothing short of embarrassing.

SB

[IO540]

I think we are paying the price for many years of GA being full of statements like "GPS is illegal" or "GPS is illegal for primary navigation" etc etc, coming from quasi-official publications like GASCO or GASIL (which have the appearance and certainly the patronising prose which suggests, perhaps not entirely unintended, that it is the mouthpiece of the CAA). Plus the mainstream GA mags saying the same - though they have become a lot more modern lately.

Taking a novice pilot who has never seen anything other than the inside of a flying school, it is hardly suprising that so many pilots believe this crap.

I think that one reason that modern technology is more warmly embraced elsewhere in Europe is that the schools/clubs out there are less reluctant to have experienced PPLs hanging around. In the UK, the school environment is relatively sterile and the student gets to know exactly nothing which doesn't come from the instructors - until he gets his PPL and then how the hell do you go from here to somewhere far away??

[Ringway Flyer]

Bose sums things up very well - use all the information available and CROSS CHECK. Like the original 3 points of reference to identify a town...

We have 2x 430s installed, so redundancy should ensure that we don't get lost, but we still do a plot, use the wizzwheel and check the notams etc. We have experienced failures with HH GPSs caused by interference from the radios on certain frequencies. Also, the Garmins are slightly slow - has any one else noticed this? There seems to be about 15 seconds delay over a given positive location. This is not too much of a problem at height, but can be significant at low level.

RF

[IO540]

We have experienced failures with HH GPSs caused by interference from the radios on certain frequencies. Also, the Garmins are slightly slow - has any one else noticed this? There seems to be about 15 seconds delay over a given positive location. This is not too much of a problem at height, but can be significant at low level.

You should get the installation checked. One of the requirements of an IFR GPS installation is that one checks the GPS performance at specific harmonics of the other avionics settings, especially the DME. A lot of panel mounts have been thrown in with bad wiring and then you can get this kind of problem.

[spikeair]

I don't own a portable GPS but the aircraft i fly most of teh time does have a 430 , whihc si jsut use as a back up to reconfirm where I am.
I don't use dead reckoning but use radio navigation exclusively. I haven't used dead reckoning since my skills test so would be rusty using that method.
Probably not a good thing if I'm honest , but radio navigation has servered me very so far so don't see any reason to move away from it. I plan my flight as IFR anyway so seems the obvious way for me operate.

[Fuji Abound]

The VOR network is conveniently designed around airways on route navigation. Whilst clearly it can be made to work reasonably well for IFR and VFR navigation OCAS the more especially if you have RNAV that is not its ideal purpose. In fact it is often really hard to construct a route OCAS using only VORs without having to factor in all sorts of deviations to avoid danger areas, ATZ, CAS, NOTAM’ed airspace etc. Why would you want to complicate the process if you could keep it simple? In fact I would imagine in IMC this is a better recipe for infringing some bit of airspace that you wished you hadn’t than following the magenta line.

Much better to enter a precision flying event if your chart skills are a bit rusty and you feel you want to brush them up. These events are a great deal of fun and a far better way to see how good (or bad) you really are. Interestingly those who reckon their skills are pretty good, but haven’t taken part before, usually find they are in for a shock!

[Mark1234]

what's the big deal? The number of CAS infringements?

:DAmen to that Islander 2, reading the reports of CAS infringements is nothing short of embarrassing.And fly-by-gps will fix that? Seriously?

I'd love to see a breakdown between GPS directed busts / didn't do any nav or planning busts / did proper map&watch but got it wrong busts.

IMHO, the inept / lazy will find a way to fcuk it up, whatever the technology. Sure, GPS is a great tool, but the universal panacea for airspace busts? I'm unconvinced!

[Fuji Abound]

And fly-by-gps will fix that? Seriously?

This is an all to common misperception.

It is not the GPS that "fixes" anything.

What really "fixes" things is the pilot being able to see in real time exactly where he is on a large colour moving map.

Of course, I suppose there are a few who havent even worked out how to read a chart - yet - but as they say, you can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you are never going to get it right with all of the people all of the time - someone is always "special"!