Congress OK's Typhoon Sale to Saudi Arabia

[Lazer-Hound]

Congress OKs Eurofighter Sale to Saudi Arabia - Defense News (http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3797018&c=EUR&s=AIR)

[charliegolf]

Any British components in US jets?

CG

[spheroid]

Goodness me yes..... plenty.

[charliegolf]

So George asks Gordo for the ok to sell to other countries?

CG

[brickhistory]

Hopefully you understand that, before you really get rev'ved up, the MOD knew the details of the contract before buying whatever parts concerned and decided to press ahead and buy them and install them in the Typhoons.

So, perhaps, just perhaps, the righteous indignation compressors can start to spool down before going to full throttle?

[maxburner]

I expect George asks an adult to do that for him.

[TiffyFGR4]

CG, "So George asks Gordo for the ok to sell to other countries?".

Pfffft, I very much doubt he does....They'd throw a screaming fit & throw their bottle out the pram if we said they can't go ahead & sell whatever it is because it has some bits & pieces made in the UK. For the record, the Martin Baker ejection seat being just one of them that's installed into some, if not, all of their fighters.

So the Typhoon "contains American components"? Well, GPS being one of them I believe.........What else does it have that's Yank?

[charliegolf]

Brick, whilst a bit flippant, i really was interested in the answer to the proper question, "Is that the normal way these things are done; and do we in the UK ask for the same clauses when sharing our clever stuff?"

[Boldface]

Perhaps the US could also be a little more careful when exporting to Israel, thereby ensuring that western fighter and C2 technologies didn't end up in Chinese J-10s and AEW projects (not to mention a few other nation's aircraft).

[brickhistory]

CG, for the US side, the answer is yes.

For the UK side, I don't know.

For boldface, did you ever get a check from Stalin for the Nenes?

[microlight AV8R]

My dear chap, it is cheque I'll have you know ;)

Two nations divided by a common language :rolleyes:

[brickhistory]

cheque?



Reads French-like...

[microlight AV8R]

Nah,

The origins go much further back to times when France as we know it now wasn't :cool:

Sources indicate that cheque comes from the Arabic ṣakk (صكّ), which is a written document or letter or note of credit Muslim merchants adopted to carry out their trading. Believed to go back as far as the 9th century. The concept of ṣakk appeared in European documents around 1220, mostly in areas neighbouring Muslim Spain and North Africa; south France and Italy.

Anyway, you're not too irritating for a colonial I have to say.

Toodle pip :ok:

[tornadoken]

bh: did you ever get a check from Stalin for the Nenes? For the sold hardware, 25 Nenes+30 Derwents: £660K credit against UK imports of, largely, food (cold winter, 46/47). For the knock-off RD-45, VK-1, no. Like US for Tu-4 Bull.

[Maple 01]

Bull reverse engineered from 'captured' examples (Ok, force landed in Allied country), Yankee imperialists didn't flog them the plans, we sold the jets though :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Magic Mushroom]

I would suggest that the ill advised transfer of British jet technology 60 years ago is hardly comparable to the continuing sale (or presentation given the Israelis get much of it at no cost) of high technology to a nation with a recent track record of reverse engineering and sale to China and/or the highest bidder.

The J-10, Chinese/Israeli Phalcon AEW Project, and US radar and weapons technology sold by the Israelis to South Africa, Chile, Ecuador, Sri Lanka and various other nations are the principle examples, some of which have already been mentioned.

Regards,
MM

[brickhistory]

Which is unrelated to the thread.

The MOD bought some US gear which carried with it a stipulation that the US had to give permission for that gear to sold onwards.

The MOD agreed to those terms prior to purchasing.

It seems the bellyaching should be aimed elsewhere but it's always easy to blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for one's actions.

The selling/giving of sensitive US technology unrelated to this deal is a topic for another thread, it would seem to me.

But then, you've done the same, so the 'oh yeah, what about xxx?' could go on for quite a while.

[Magic Mushroom]

Who's 'bellyaching' laddy?:rolleyes:

I don't believe that I have ever stated the MoD didn't sign up to the agreement. I don't believe I have ever blamed anyone else. I was simply stating facts about current US export policies which could at best be described as ironic.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Tiffy

Statistically, *most* US fighters use the ACES II seat, made my MCD/Boeing.

The US Navy uses the NACES, which is indeed an MB design, but that hardly qualifies as *most* and is definitely not *all*.

[Modern Elmo]

Israel is avid for both F-35's and F-22's, to be paid for in the usual manner - by loans from the US Treasury that are never paid back.

I sincerely wish that the UK would start complaining about Israel's tendency to reverse engineer and sell classfied US military technolgy to America's - and Britain's - enemies.

[brickhistory]

MM, I stand corrected as to your intent.


regards,

brick

[LFFC]

Germany offers MoD way out on Eurofighters (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1465b1bc-c8a2-11dd-b86f-000077b07658.html)- FT Sat 13 Dec 08

The way I read things, it looks like this:

1. The UK has contracted to buy 88 Typhoons in the final tranch.

2. The Saudis want to buy 72 Typhoons from the UK.

3. However, Germany, Spain and Italy are arguing that the original Typhoon contract states that workshare from export sales should be divided equally between all 4 nations.

4. By contrast, the UK is arguing that the Typhoons it wishes to sell the Saudis would be it's own, and not an export order.

5. Meanwhile, the U.S. Congress has approved the UK's request to transfer 24 Eurofighter jets from its inventory to Saudi Arabia and cleared the way for the sale of another 48 new-build aircraft.


I think this is going to run and run.....

[Guzlin Adnams]

I'm sure I read that Oman were looking for 24 phoons to replace their Jags. Another outlet for tranch 1's ?

[Jetex Jim]

Work share is based on the size of each order led by the UK (37.5 per cent), Germany (30 per cent), Italy (19.5 per cent) and Spain (13 per cent).

So what actually happened? Could it be that the UK ordered more than they were ever going to need, knowing that the Saudia order was in the bag. Always intending to eventually plead poverty, reduced requirments and, "oh gosh, what a surprise, here's a handy buyer for all those spare Typhoons." That original large order secured 37.5% of the workshare for the UK and the opportunity to get the ECR-90 RADAR onboard. Thus boosting the value of what was once Ferranti Edinburgh, now SELEX Gallileo, and now owned by Italy's Finmeccanica.

A clever trick, assuming the rest of the partner nations accept it. Italy will not have too many problems with it. They now own, in Finmeccanica, the fruits of all that dickering to get the UK extra workshare.

Now it could be, of course, that the other partners will kick up a fuss. Why should the Saudi order be treated differently to Austria? Additionally the Saudi's will be looking for offsets and workshare of their own. Perhaps at the end all the Saudia aircraft will be additional, as the consortium rules demand, and the UK will end up having to accept all of its original order so the RAF will end of with a lot of spare aircraft in storage. Or even worse, and all too plausible, the UK will pay the penalty and not get the aircraft!

Whatever the case, BAE will have done very nicely out of it. They get to build 37.5% of those 80+ 'unwanted' jets, or take the same percentage of the penalty, and they offloaded Ferranti/Selex to Italy for a tidy sum.

Well that, as some would have it, is how capitalism works. But who bought that 'nice little earner' for BAE, along with a bunch of jets surplus to requirements? Why the UK taxpayer of course, and that too is how capitalism works.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Hasn't it been a no brainer for a while?

230+ advanced multirole FJ's to replace x amount of legacy aircraft.

I'd guess as a conservative estimate that 230 Typhoons could do the job of say 350 'legacy' front line strike/fighter aircraft.

When was the last time the RAF had 350 front line strike/fighter aircraft, let alone required them?

This isn't even taking in to account the lack of a future deep strike capability, which will obviously bump up the numbers further.

Are FJ ILS costs still 10 x unit purchase price?

No wonder the country hasn't got a pot to piss in. :D

[Jetex Jim]

Are in life service costs still 10 x unit purchase price?

No wonder the country hasn't got a pot to piss in. :D

Sounds like you might be making the case for the cancel the order and pay the penalty option PP. And you hail from where? Ah yes Blackpool. The jewel of the north west, and darned handy for Warton.

I think you're on to something with that life cycle cost argument though. I can see that one coming out on the next round of MRA4 cost overruns, "See if we claim further enhanced capabilities, we can save money by reducing the fleet size to three aircraft." Which, with development overruns rivalling that of the Space shuttle, any possible way forward on costs will be grabbed.

Maybe I'm out of line comparing the MRA4 to the shuttle. I expect the final MRA$ fleet to be smaller than the shuttle fleet.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Jim-bobI can see that one coming out on the next round of MRA4 cost overruns

Anyone with half a brain can see that there is no comparison, but you already know that. :ok:

[Jetex Jim]

I can see that one coming out on the next round of MRA4 cost overruns Anyone with half a brain can see that there is no comparison, but you already know that. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Steady on old chap, you're getting perilously close to being coherent, if still some way from developing an argument.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Jim bob,

Tbh, the pprune BS bingo banter gets a bit boring & tiresome. The jackanory cretin still provides the odd giggle though.

[Jackonicko]

Banter's bound to be boring if you don't have the brain to manage any of your own, Pee Pee Pilot (Ooh look! You can mis-spell someone's user name for a cheap giggle.....). :rolleyes: