Course Price Compaisons

[Ronnie1982]

Hi there. This is my first post; please be gentle.

Before anyone tells me to look at the search facility, I have done my research but still have a couple of questions.

I am contemplating doing a full-time ATPL course. I've considered the modular route, but I have the money for a full-time course, I've just left my job, and with a recession looming, it looks like a good a time to train rather than seek another job.

I've got the details from all the usual suspects. Seems to me that the programmes that supposedly lead to employment are probably not credible at the moment (e.g. CTC Wings, Bristol Sponsored Pilot Programme), other than Etihad's own programme (and I don't want to live in the UAE having spent a little time in Dubai). Therefore, I'm considering the self-funded courses from Bristol Aviation, CabAir, CTC, FTE, Oxford and WAAC (carefully listed in alphabetical order to avoid sparking prejudices).

The problem I have had is comparing like with like. I'm, still not 100% sure that I have got this right. What I have calculated is that these courses vary enormously in price when comparing apples with apples. I'm interested in observations of whether I have got my comparison right and, if so, how the 'pricy' courses can be justified (if they can).

In price order:

Bristol Aviation PPP (Bristol Aviation (http://www.bristolaviation.net/professional-pilot-programme.html))
Basic price £42,000
Extras quoted (food, accommodation, test fees, uniform and equipment) £9,550
Other things I've estimated (£1,500 for airfares, £6,000 for a JOC course) £7,500
TOTAL £59,050

CabAir (About Cabair Integrated (http://www.cabair.com/integrated/aboutccat.htm))

Basic price £61,238
Extras quoted none
Other things I've estimated (£1,611 for test fees, £5,570 for accommodation, £3,136 for food) £10,617

TOTAL £71,554

CTC ICP (Commercial Pilot's Licence (CPL) (http://www.ctcwings.com/icp/index.asp))

Basic price £63,000
Extras quoted (AQC course) £7,000
Other things I've estimated (£5,000 for food and living costs) £5,000

TOTAL £75,000



OAA APP (Oxford Aviation Academy (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/air_appfo.htm))

Basic price £66,000
Extras quoted (test fees) £5,000
Other things I've estimated (£5,060 UK accommodation, £4,480 for food and living costs) £9,540

TOTAL £80,540

WAAC (http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/courses/JARIntegrated/index.asp) (http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/courses/JARIntegrated/index.asp) Basic price £73,165
Extras quoted (Aus accommodation and test fees) £6,725
Other things I've estimated (£800 UK accommodation, £2,932 for food, £1,500 for airfares) £5,232

TOTAL £85,122



FTE (http://www.flighttrainingeurope.com/page.php?page_name=courses_integrated) (http://www.flighttrainingeurope.com/page.php?page_name=courses_integrated)

Basic price £97,116
Extras quoted none
Other things I've estimated (£200 for air travel) £200

TOTAL £97,316



If I have my figures right, that’s an enormous difference from Bristol Aviation to Flight Training Europe. Why would I want to pay 65% more when the result and quality are directly comparable? Am I missing something, or should I just save £38 thousand and book with Bristol? I could get a type rating and tens of thousands change for that...

[fibod]

Interesting. You've obviously done your research properly. One of the problems in getting the sort of advice you are after is that by definition, wannabees who have trained with the various provider have no experience of the others to make comparisons.

I don't know much about WAAC, so cannot comment on them or their course. Cabair have always struggled with a cheap and cheerful reputation. As for the other 4, there is probably in essence not much to choose between them other than price. All are very good.

I'm intrigued that FTE are so expensive now; they always used to be positioned slightly below the price of the competition, but I guess that was before their management buy-out, and maybe it is the influence of the £-€ exchange rate.

Certainly, the way you put it, it is difficult to see a justification for paying anything more than you need to, as all lead to identical licenses and you've listed the best of the bunch in Europe.

Frankly, I'd save the £20 grand if I were you.

What was this job you just left then? Not banking by any chance? ;)

[Groundloop]

I don't think you have worked out some of your extras correctly, eg:-

Cabair £1400 for accommodation, £1200 for food.
That's only £43 per week for a 60 week course!!! More like £125 -150 per week = £7500 - £9000 - if not more.


Oxford £1190 for "food and living costs"
Again, that's only £20 per week.

A lot of your others are similar.

[Ronnie1982]

Thanks Groundloop; I'd made a couple of errors in transcribing; I've now rechecked the websites and corrected the figures. Still gives the same spread from most expensive to least.

Is it worth it and if so why?

[clanger32]

I stand to be corrected - because OAA change their pricing annually, but as of when I started there, the exam fees were included in the base fees. But from my experience your overall figure is probably about right...

In terms of whether it's worth the extra, unfortunately I think there's too many other non tangible factors to make it a clear black and white. For example, IF (that's IF by the way for anyone who is just waiting to jump on this and say how incorrect it is...) going to FTE gave you the opportunity of getting straight to the RHS of a jet job, whereas you'd have to wait six months graduating from Bristol, then how much is that opportunity worth to you? Further, how much is that additional six months seniority and salary worth to you over your career?
For example, OAA is still getting to send people for interviews even now, I don't know, but are the others on your list?

Bottom line is you pays your money, you takes your choice. Sorry, not much help but it's important to weigh up ALL the factors, not just headline cost.

[parkfell]

One of the biggest decisions you are likely to make.

I would offer just two pieces of advice at this stage.

1. Before you get carried away with your choice of FTO, obtain the initial class one medical from the CAA. Without this "tick in the box" you are going nowhere down the professional route.

2. Having successfully jumped through this initial hoop, why not at least visit the EU ones to get a better understanding of what they can offer you as an individual.

FTE will at least offer a potential of a foreign language as well.

:)

[Ronnie1982]

Just when I thought this decision was complicated enough, the £ slide against the € has added yet another dimension.

FTE just looks fantastically expensive now at €102K; that’s now £86K and getting worse by the day. Some of my savings are actually already in €, offsetting the effect a little, but now any course priced in £ is getting really cheap in € terms; Bristol’s is now only €70K compared on a like-for like basis.

I guess FTE is well and truly off the list; nobody has offered any explanation for it being so expensive, so I cannot imagine why anyone would go there on a self-funded basis.

With the must better value UK schools, again, no-one has come up with any justification for price differences.

Can anyone tell me how the more expensive schools can justify their extra price? I’ve asked them, but they have not offered any meaningful reason or justification. If you are a customer or thinking of being one, what is your reasoning for your choice?

[AlphaMale]

I know of a Pilot who got a job in the RHS of a A320 with GB Airways straight after finishing his course at FTE. That was back in 2005/2006 though, of course circumstances have changed in the industry since.

Nice to see you've put in some effort with the figures though - useful for other to look at.

[negativeROC]

In your opening post you have decided to go full time? It's the usual misconception that integrated is full time and modular part time. Just to be sure you've considered it, modular can be full time too. Yes, it will take longer but it's a misconception I come across regularly. Try getting some prices and timescales for full-time modular, might work for you, might not. Integrated is much more expensive but quicker, possibly the extra living expenses with modular, being a longer timescale, may offest the differences. Best of luck whatever you do.

[Aerospace101]

ctc iCP doesn't include any MCC

CTC MCC , AQC course costs 7000 pounds.

[acuba 290]

and you can save much more money going modular and doing HB in USA and rest in different parts of Europe. At the end we all going to have same JAA license. It is possible to come total with max. € 35,000 and not £ 59,000 :)

[daria-ox]

Acuba, you need to think of how many schools you're going to attend, 5 schools to get fATPL won't look good on your CV.

Ronnie, don't look at the prices, they're not the most important thing.. Have a look around the school you think of choosing, talk to ex students.. do a research, then choose few school which you best like and think it's the best for your training, then, from them all, choose the cheapest one. :) I was going to go to Highland Flying School, because of their prices, I choosed Tayside instead, because it's much better in so many ways!

[preduk]

I was going to go to Highland Flying School, because of their prices, I choosed Tayside instead, because it's much better in so many ways!

Explain? Whats better?

Nothing against Tayside, I know one of the instructors very well and he's a fantastic chap but I would be interested in hearing what these benefits are.

[AlphaMale]

Ronnie, don't look at the prices, they're not the most important thing..

I'd also like to point out that prices are important when, like most people you have a budget.

If I had only £60,000 to spend on training then surly FTE is not an option for me? :ugh:

Of course, if you're using Daddys money and cost is not a problem then sure, don't compare them on price - compare them on quality.

I'm not using Daddys money so I'll be using a 'Quality per £' method and if OAA can prove they're at least 30% better than B-F-C then I'll find the cash from somewhere.

As Ronnie has already pointed out, a saving of £27,000 could be made by training with Bristol instead of FTE.

So who is better;

Candidate A who has fATPL 250hrs from FTE

Candidate B who has fATPL 300hrs from Bristol & 737/320 TR and maybe some spare cash to relocate?

[daria-ox]

Alpha, I'm not using Daddy's money. I actually work full time, while still doing full time HNC at college :ugh:

What I meant was to choose few good schools, and then choose the cheapest one!

Preduk, I choosed Tayside, mainly because they have more courses available, and it has been recommended to me, by quite a lot of people, the prices there aren't that high, and another thing is.. it's easier for me to get to Dundee than Inverness.

[preduk]

They charge £6,499 compared to £4,600. Their NPPL course costs more than Highland's full PPL. I would say they are pretty expensive.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Tayside, I was one of those who recommended the school to you but they are expensive compared to some other FTOs.

[daria-ox]

There are cheaper and dearer schools. I can't do nothing about it :sad:
I'm going to stick to Tayside, as it's a good school, and what I was looking at is well, is the number of my schools on my CV.

[BigGrecian]

Candidate B sounds like he's self selecting.

I would and know of airlines who take
Candidate C (one who actually has a PPL AlphaMale ;)

Has 300 hours JAA CPL IR UK issued.

Seems to be the way nearly all our students get hired.

[AlphaMale]

Alpha, I'm not using Daddy's money. I actually work full time, while still doing full time HNC at college

Who said anything about you using Daddy's money? I studied my degree full time too (lets be honest full time study isn't exactly 36.5hrs a week is it?) I worked my contracted 14hrs or so a week and then added an extra 20hrs or so on top. Not including night shift during the holidays.

Last time I looked a HNC is the equivalent to the 1st year of a degree and HND equivalent to 2nd Year of a Degree. So I'm sure you'll not be under too much pressure :8

Candidate B sounds like he's self selecting.

Ok, I'll correct that to having the cash available to do a TR on anything from a KingAir to a 737/320, I've read many adverts from BizJet companies who will take on a pilot who is not type rated and will bond the pilot for 50% of the TR ... The other 50% comes from the pilots pocket. If you go to FTE over Bristol do you still have that kind of cash lying around?

I would and know of airlines who take
Candidate C (one who actually has a PPL AlphaMale ;)

If you know of an airline who will take on a Pilot with only a PPL then my PM box is ready for you message :ok: I can only think on one, that is Highland Airways and they will probably have some ex-Silverjet / Zoom / XL FO's sending in their CV's so I'm not holding out for much.

Like I said, I'm all ears ;)

Has 300 hours JAA CPL IR UK issued.

Seems to be the way nearly all our students get hired.

That's reassuring to know, as I'll be looking to study here in the UK for CPL/MEIR (probably with Bristol with it being just over the bridge).

[Ronnie1982]

Negative RoC; it's a good point. Full-time would suit my personal circumstances, but I don't care too much whether it's modular full-time or integrated full-time.

Basically, it need to be good instruction and good value, as I'm using my own hard-earned cash, and I don't want to waste any.

Aerospace101, I had not spotted that; I've adjusted the list now; it makes quite a difference to the ranking.

With a bit of refinement from those of you who have contributed, it seems now to be a good like-for-like comparison of the real costs.

Given that there are no real quality of training differences between these schools and given that they all achieve the same result, I'll be going for the best value which seems by miles to be Bristol; I've not really heard a bad word about them - the opposite in fact.

However, before making a final decision I do intend to visit as many as I can to gain my own impressions. And thanks for the PMs I've had from several ex-students of these schools; I really appreciate the constructive advice.

[daria-ox]

Alpha, HNC course is equivalent to the first year of degree. I'm at college 5 hours a day, then work 8/10 hours, in the afternoons, and I do loads of overtimes on weekends.

[Another TD]

Moduler route will get you a job (in normal times),many airline pilots have come from that route.....take a look at SINBIN, LHR Airbus and no debts.
Alternatively go integrated and STILL pay for a type rating (eg. OAA then Ryan Air).
If money was no object then I would have gone integrated,great fun for a year,but money is a problem so moduler it is.

[CharlieLima]

Id like to know more about that EFT (http://www.flyeft.com/) crowd you linked to as well, has any one else heard of them trained with them? Thanks for sharing your comparisons by the way very handy - sent you a quick pm on it.

I thought i wrote a whole new post about EFT (http://www.flyeft.com/) but dosn't seem to be up, must have made a complete balls of it.

Anyway I am in the very same boat as the OP so researching a lot, but I think its integrated for me, saves a lot of bureaucratic crap which would just suit me a lot better I think and the cost and hassle of all those JAA conversions just may not be worth it in the end. I'm still undecided though.
The main arguments do seem to be modular vs integrated in here.

Bristol looks like it might be a good choice, let me know which one you choose or when you choose to do it I might get round to starting about June '09

Personaly i need to sell an apartment to get the ball rolling on financing my training Im 30 yoa now so need to get a move on if I'm gonna do this myself. Got a few hours started on my ppl in before but never had the money to continue now I would be able to get right to the ATPL stage anyway, I'll worry about the type ratings when i get that far.....

Best of luck Ronnie1982 whichever way you choose to do it.

This was my first post(as the other one hasnt appeared) so introductory hello to all I'm from Ireland currently in SE Asia.
(been reading a lot of threads though, great forum)

-Edit, sorry just realized the OP mentioned FTE (http://www.flighttrainingeurope.com) NOT EFT (http://www.flyeft.com/) but my question still stands Ive searched for it with no results, they say you could finish with 1,500 hours and FAA and JAA qualifications for roughly 60k USD but i take it with a pinch of salt until i hear from somone whose been there or at least know about it.

[clear prop!!!]

Dia

What on earth are you driveling about the number of schools affecting your prospects??!!

Have you any 1st hand experience...without even a PPL, we suspect not!

Having just moved over to the LHS with some 4 schools under my belt (inc GS), I have NEVER been asked anything other than where I did my IR and, if it was a 1st time pass, and I suspect even that didn't matter.

PLEASE!... stop giving advice you are nowhere near in a position to give!!...it's becoming a very dangerous habit!!:ugh:

[AlphaMale]

Alpha, I'm not using Daddy's money. I actually work full time, while still doing full time HNC at college

Is that right? ... It wasn't that long ago I read this post;

Erm.. About My Parents..
Becoming A Pilot Is My Dream Since I Was 5.. That Was When I First Got On The Plane When I Went For Holidays.. I Will Never Forget That Day

I Think Im Gonna Start The PPL Over The Summer.. And Il Try To Get A Job So Il Have More Money So I Will Be Able To Fly A Little Bit More. I Have Just Spoke To My Parents.. For Now They Are Ready To Give Me 2.500 Pounds To Study.. Over The Summer. It Helps. At Least I Will Get Started On What I Want To Do. I Think I Will Gain My License By My 17th Birthday. Cant Hold PPL Before Im 17 Anyway So..
So I've Got Over Half A Year To Get It Done. I Was Also Wondering.. How Much Does The Full CPL Costs..?

As seen here (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/325859-problem-ppl-costs.html#post4098269)

[BigGrecian]

Alpha male doesn't have a PPL either. LOL a lot of unqualified advice so far...

Regarding EFT I know multiple ex students; one is now chief pilot for a modelling/lingerie company in Italy, if that's not good Advertising I don't know what is ;)
Ps to list all the other EFT guys i know one of each went to FlyBe, Aer Lingus, Ryanair, CityJet, Bmi Regional and Air Baltic.

[AlphaMale]

Alpha male doesn't have a PPL either. LOL a lot of unqualified advice so far...

(Post in grey as it has no relevance to thread question)

I don't think you'll find I advice anybody on what to do. If people ask on the forum or via PM why I favour one route over another I will tell them why. i.e. PM asking why I'm no longer looking to do my training in US and considering South Africa instead? And why not do it in the UK?

Then I will tell them why, I will 'research' these different ways of getting my training done and I'll keep an eye on the price of UK training, USD v GBP & ZAR v GBP. This isn't exactly dishing out advise like Daria where she will 'assure' people of how much a full fATPL will cost.

The only advise I take from this forum are from people who are in a position to give it out (like your kind self via PM), I don't judge people for going Int over Mod, I don't judge people or advise people in paying for their own TR with Ryanair ... In fact I am just jealous of them, but I'm doing this debt free and with my own money so please forgive me if I'm taking my time getting the training done in this booming industry where fATPL pilots with 250hrs are a rare site.

If people ask where they can find posts on 'Eagle Jet International' is it a crime for me to point them in the right direction? ... If it is BigGrecian then PM me and I'll happily take but not give from the forum (personally I think it rude to keep taking from people but never returning the favour).

Now lets not spoil what is a good thread started by Ronnie.

[Ronnie1982]

I've just updated the list with latest price quotes and exchange rates. The spread is even greater now due to exchange rate movement.

I have also just about concluded my own research into the schools, and this is my assessment:

Overall Customer Satisfaction

The two equal front runners are Bristol Aviation and Flight Training Europe, followed a little way by WAAC and CTC. I've managed to speak to many graduates of each of these schools. Oxford and Cabair graduates were most critical of their FTO, and CTC was next worse.

Value for Money

The list in the first post of this thread tells its own tale. Nobody I have spoken to was able to show any additional benefit for additional cost. That is to say at the extremes, Bristol Aviation's course is just as good as Flight Training Europe's which costs 65% more :eek:.

Employability of Graduates

In times past, CTC would have been first choice, assuming that you were not on a sponsored scheme with Cabair or FTE. However, right now I don't think it makes any difference. The reputations of Bristol, CTC, FTE and Oxford are all very good and each claims good relatsionships with employers. Past graduates of all 6 schools have readilly found good employment, leading me to conclude that when the airlines are recruiting it does not mean a thing where you trained, and when they are not recruiting it does not mean a thing where you trained! Your employability on graduation is down to you and the job market.

Anyone any contradictory thoughts (other than don't do it now, which is a completely different thread)?

As an aside, I have to say that if I were in a Eurozone country and considerning training now, the UK would look very attractive: a €102,000 course for €63,000? Bargain!

[Falcone]

Anyone looking for Type Rating should check this TRTO:

www.p

Good luck :ok:

[Skippy129]

OAA - extra 30k for the experience of a BA interview....Controversial thought but could go modular and afford a self sponsored type rating!

Just an opinion from my experiences!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Do your groundschool at Bristol and your MODULAR CPL/IR at ..................


WWW


ps this is an appalling time to be starting a to train to become a pilot.