DL ATPL theory and exams only CPL and IR theory?

[ramis5]

Dear Sirs,

If I start ATPL distance learning in England JAA/JAR can I exam only CPL and IR exams? :ugh:

Thanks !

[Whirlygig]

No, you will take ATPL theory exams.

Cheers

Whirls

[daria-ox]

Stupid question. You signed on for ATPL course, you'll have to do it all. If you don't want full ATPL exams, do the CPL + IR separately. But there's no point.. because if you want to join airlines later on in life you'll need it. Try and keep your options open.

[ramis5]

I just asked JAR FTO, if I study atpl d/l I can exam only IR or/and CPL only. I have no needs to be commercial pilot in airline.... :ugh:

Was it stupid question or very stupid answer????

[heliporto]

Hi there

Take a look at AIC 12/2003 from CAA. It is possible to do CPL exams after ATPL theory course has long has you do that "via an aproved CPL FTO" . (FTO has to have an homologated CPL course).
Note that sittings, attempts and time limits will be calculated from first attempt (from 1st ATPL exams if you´ve done any).


I can send you the document if you PM me.

[Shunter]

It would seem logical that ATPL groundschool providers were also CPL/IR groundschool providers by default, just that most of them can't be arsed to offer the courses because the majority of market demand is for the ATPL sausage machine and most, but certainly not all, CPL/IR candidates aspire to be airline pilots. After all, the CPL/IR exams share the exact same content with the ATPLs, but the latter have some additional syllabus items (global climatology, transatlantic planning etc..). Whether that is the case in reality is another matter; the CAA are never ones to let common sense get in the way of red tape and stupidity.

The format of the exams is also different. The CPL flight planning exam for example combines performance, mass & balance, so it's quite a wide scope which requires a fair bit of revision. CPL and IR both have a single nav exam, with the former being mostly VFR and the latter more IFR. They also both have a met exam, with slight differences (no adiabatic lapse rates etc in the CPL, so IR met is harder). Anyone who's undertaken a full ATPL groundschool should have no problem passing the CPL and IR exams.

That said, if you've done ATPL groundschool it may be more convenient to do the ATPL exams as you've been trained for them. To take the CPL and IR exams will require different revision schedules, and it's possible that the inconvenience of that will outweigh the fact that CPL/IR exams are slightly easier. Plus you'd be 1 exam better off - ATPL is 14 exams, CPL is 9, IR is 7. IR Human Performance credits for the CPL equivilent, so that makes 15 versus the ATPL 14.

[eikido]

This is a good thread.
I want to become a JAA FI but cannot see why i should do the IR.
The only problem is i have to keep it current if i do it which will probably cost me loads of money.

That way i want to the CPL only and IR if i want to work with heavy jets in the future.

What way would you guys think would be the best?
Why should i do the full ATPL if i only need CPL and ME to become a FI?
My plan is to do PPL->JAA CPL incl ME (incl theory for CPL only)->FI->Work as FI->If i want to move up->Do IR incl theory.

Will schools hire an FI without ATPL and only CPL?

Eikido

[Shunter]

A CPL is a CPL. Until you've met the requirements for an ATPL (1500hrs, 500 multi crew, etc etc etc), your CPL is EXACTLY THE SAME as anyone else's. The exams you took make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL until you meet those ATPL requirements, at which point you are eligible to take an ATPL skills test. The "Frozen ATPL" myth is really quite irritating. There is no such thing. A CPL is a CPL, and an ATPL is an ATPL. "Frozen ATPL" means that one day, maybe, you might get an ATPL. Until that point you have a CPL just like anyone else.

Also, an MEP is largely irrelevant for instructing... until you've acquired sufficient experience to teach CPL students, at which point teaching multi might be useful.

I would certainly recommend an IR to anyone who takes their flying seriously. To those with little or no flying experience it's difficult to explain its value, but take a trip up with an instructor sometime and fly into cloud. Try something simple, like keeping straight and level. You'll soon realise how valuable instrument flying skills really are.

[eikido]

How i see it is that (f)ATPL=CPL+IR. Weather i get the title ATPL or CPL+IR is really irrelevent. Because my question is should i do CPL only and jump onto IR when necessary or should i do both in a single shot (CPL+IR=(f)ATPL). And i'm talking about the practical and theory. Each module separately that is.

Because most do the ATPL theory=CPL+IR and fly up for CPL and IR.

And also, i can not become a IR instructor any time soon because according to LASORS H2.1:



H2.1
INSTRUMENT RATING INSTRUCTOR
(AEROPLANE) (IRI(A))

a. The applicant for an IRI(A) shall hold a valid IR(A).

b. Have completed at least 800 hours of flight
time under IFR of which at least 400 shall be in
aeroplanes. Where pilots have recorded flight by
sole reference to instruments and not under IFR,
then 1 hour sole reference to instruments may be
counted as 4 hours flight by IFR.


Eikido

[Whirlygig]

CPL exams + IR exams do NOT equal ATPL exams. However, if you have no wish to fly for an airline, the CPL exams will be enough. There are schools who do the CPL and IR separately (Atlantic Flight Training in Coventry being one).

But, if you want to do the CPL and IR exams at the same time, you might as well do ATPL exams otherwise you would be repeating work.

Cheers

Whirls

[eikido]

If i did the CPL and IR seperately and want to work for an airline, can't I at the end count both as a fATPL or ATPL when i have the time? Or would i have to redo all theory (ATPL) from scratch?

This is why i like the FAA much better, because you can do all totally seperate.

Because if i read the ATPL theory, i have 36 months to do the IR. What if i enjoy working as an FI and want to move on and do IR after 5 years?

So keeping IR current for a couple years will cost me a lot, that is why i don't want to do it. Or maybe it doesn't work that way?

Eikido

[RVR800]

The difficulty of doing the CPL and IR exams exceeds the ATPL in terms of cost and in terms of exams needed to be sat.

Although the content is almost identical the advice would be to do the ATPL -you must sit CPL and IR flight tests and pass within 3 years - otherwis a REPASS is required

The effect is really to make the CPL exams only for those who never want to fly for an airline but may want to instruct

The IR in isolation is for PPL who want that rating

The ATPL is for potential airline pilots

For these reasons the number of peple who sit IR or CPL written exams each year is very low

Its abuot 20 candidates each yera in the UK for the IR wittens - its really not a rating as such for light aircradt its a hoop for the airlines..such a low take up by PPL as to be laughable ..

[Whirlygig]

If i did the CPL and IR seperately and want to work for an airline, can't I at the end count both as a fATPL or ATPL when i have the time? No.
Or would i have to redo all theory (ATPL) from scratch?Yes.

What if i enjoy working as an FI and want to move on and do IR after 5 years?
Then you only have to resit the IR exams as far as I know.

Cheers

Whirls

[eikido]

Friend, if i'm not mistaking, you will have to do both the CPL and IR flyup for the full ATPL theory to be approved (within 36 months).
If i pass the CPL checkride only and do not flyup for the IR, i will have to redo the whole ATPL theory (after 36 months).

Correct me if i'm wrong.