Man killed in Norfolk plane crash

[gyrotyro]

Man killed in Norfolk plane crash


29 October 2008 16:42


A two-seater light aircraft has crashed at Seething airfield this afternoon, killing one man and injuring another.

The accident happened at around 13.50pm today when the aircraft was in collision with a tractor.

One man was pronounced dead at the scene and the second was flown to the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital by the East of England Ambulance Service.

The airfield has been closed and police are investigating the incident in with Air Accident Investigators.

A spokeswoman for the East Anglian Ambulance Service said the tractor driver was shaken but unhurt'.

Early reports indicated that the plane caught fire.
_____________

[flyvirgin]

R.I.P to all the man's family
A very sad day

[maxdrypower]

Sky news maintaining their sensationalist headlining , claiming Pilot from LOW COST flying school , insinuating in some way that cheap flying had something to do with it , makes me sick
May they RIP

[liam548]

Blimey, not another one!!!!!!!! :(

[Saab Dastard]

Report from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/7697998.stm)

SD

[setandcontact]

Just across the fields from us, Seething is a lovely airstrip that boasts a restored WW11 control tower that is now a museum. The flying club is small, very friendly and very, very close knit. Its not as 'commercial' as other clubs and student pilots are actively encouraged to participate in duties associated with the day to day running of the airstrip. I've flown a lot in NZ and have loved the Kiwi attitude to aviation - this is the one place in the UK that I've found to replicate that. Seething acts as an overnight base for display aircraft performing at Lowestoft Airshow.

This is just so sad. Thoughts & prayers to those involved. R.I.P

[AMEandPPL]

Blimey, not another one !!

My thoughts, precisely. What a dreadful month it's been.

[SFCC]

Anybody care to post the type of aircraft please?
I'm looking at the BBC site and have my suspicions

[DavidHoul52]

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1081583/Miracle-escape-tractor-driver-light-aircraft-crashes-machine-killing-plane-passenger.html) has a picture of a "similar" aircraft -- but then its the Daily Mail

[rans6andrew]

aircraft remains shown on BBC website, referenced above, has rounded fin/rudder. That shown as "similar" type on Daily Mail clearly has square corners to fin/rudder.

Not the same type, methinks.........

Remains of structure shown on BBC photo suggest tube n fabric. I understand that the Piper suggested by the daily mail would be all metal construction.

Anyone know?

[airborne_artist]

Added to which the DM's pic show an aircraft commonly used to seat six, while the BBC article states it was a two-seater. My guess is that someone in the DM has just grabbed the first shot on file, which as luck would have it, is an aircraft associated with a criminal trial a while back, IIRC.

[setandcontact]

a chipmunk lives there.

[rans6andrew]

chipmunk has a balanced rudder, I think.

I am leaning towards Auster or Taylorcraft types.

[javelin]

Pitts or Eagle

[Zulu Alpha]

It does look like a Pitts or Eagle and the undercarriage looks more like the spring beam used on a few Pitts and on most eagles. I hope its not the Eagle pilot that I know locally. Does anyone on the forum know which aircraft it was?

ZA

[smarthawke]

To me it looks like it might have been an Eagle. Very sad...

[SefonSA]

Hello fellow Ppruners

I am a member at seething and for the record want to say what an excellent club it is (as setandcontact also posted) its a cooperative not a commercial organisation.

I am also shocked about the news and at this stage know little of the details (having just got back from the pub) but will inform you when I know more tomorrow.

But I can say training only occurs on Saturdays (so its not low cost training students! - ridiculous statement), there are a variety of kit planes based at the airfield aswell as a chipmunk, a yak and several robins, a new maintenance group recently moved there (variety of new customers flying in), and a variety of local farm strip pilots who fly in for fuel... So at this stage it is very difficult to speculate on the a/c.

My thoughts and prayers go to the people and families involved.

And I pray I dont know them.

[Phil Space]

From the EDP Norwich

Norfolk media executive dies in aircraft crash

30 October 2008 11:10


Police have named the man who died in a Norfolk plane crash yesterday afternoon as Ian Davies, 49, of Topcroft.

Married father-of-two Mr Davies was business development director for Archant, publishers of the EDP and Evening News.

A second man was critically injured in the crash at Seething airfield, and is being treated at the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital.

Before joining Archant, Mr Davies worked as a journalist, radio presenter and producer and television news reader.

Air accident investigators are at the scene today.

The two-seater aeroplane hit a crop spraying tractor as it approached the runway to land at Seething Airfield, near Loddon, shortly before 2pm yesterday.

Fire crews cut both men free from the shattered fuselage and paramedics tried to resuscitate them but while the other man, thought to be in his 50s, was airlifted to the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital with critical injuries, Mr Davies was pronounced dead at the scene.

Ian Davies - died in the plane crash at Seething yesterday
Ian Davies - died in the plane crash at Seething yesterday
The tractor driver, named as Andrew Hill, escaped serious injury but was recovering at home last night after being treated for shock. The aircraft came to a halt 30ft from his vehicle, which was on a field next to the runway.

Paul Bassett, a senior officer with the East of England Ambulance Service, said Mr Hill was lucky to walk away from the accident.

“From speaking to him, he didn't see the aircraft coming,” said Mr Bassett. “He heard the bang and wondered what it was. It was a lucky escape.

“The tractor was spraying the field. It remained upright. The only damage that I could see was to the large plastic truck which carries the liquid to put on to the field.”

Norfolk Fire Service watch manager Richard McGonagle said a fire broke out following the crash but it was dealt with by airfield staff.

“There was significant debris on the start of the approach to the runway and evidence of a collision with the agricultural vehicle. The aircraft was barely recognisable. The debris field suggests the aircraft collided with the crop-spraying tractor before it hit the ground.”

Norfolk police spokesman Jonathan Ford said: “Police are investigating the incident in conjunction with air accident investigators. The investigation will try to establish exactly what happened. It is too early to say at the moment.”

Fire crews from Loddon, Bungay, Norwich, Hethersett and Fakenham were called to the crash.

[AMEandPPL]

business development director for Archant, publishers of the EDP and Evening News

Archant are also the publishers of "Pilot" magazine, which most of us probably read.

[Rod1]

It is reported on the BMAA site as DHC 1 Chipmunk G-AOSY.

Rod1

[Zulu Alpha]

It is reported on the BMAA site as DHC 1 Chipmunk G-AOSY.

This is wrong, it was not a chipmunk.

ZA

[VictorGolf]

Now the unfortunate pilot has been named, can the type of aircraft be revealed?

[SefonSA]

I undertsand it was a visiting Eagle though unsure which model.

Sadly I did know the pilot and had flown with him previously. It is a very sad time for everyone involved and would be wrong for me to write anything further on this forum until the official investigators have reported.

Are thoughts go to the second man involved and hope he pulls through.

[Fly-by-Wife]

Has there been any clarification as to what, exactly, the position of the tractor was?

Was it within the airfield perimeter or in an adjacent field?

To one side of the runway or on the extended centreline, before the threshold?

FBW

[Whirlygig]

I am shocked and saddened by this news; I flew with Ian a couple of times in his Brantley. My thoughts go out to his family and friends.

RIP Ian

Whirls

[DavidHoul52]

Is what one sees in the photograph the threshold of runway 06? If so (and looking at it in Google Earth ) - a line of trees divides the field until a few yards before the threshold. If the tractor was crossing from one side of the field to the other it would need to pass near (or on) the runway threshold?

Because of the trees the pilot may not have seen the tractor until the last moment and vice versa.

[AMEandPPL]

Now the unfortunate pilot has been named

Interestingly, the article in the Mail-Online refers to Mr Davies as a passenger. The survivor is also referred to as a passenger. Are we just assuming that Mr Davies was PIC ? Could the other person have been a pilot too ?

[SkyHawk-N]

Could the other person have been a pilot too ?

The answer is Yes.

[Zulu Alpha]

Quite a few of us on the Forum know the two pilots in this accident. I don't think it helps to have lots of speculation about who was flying and who was a passenger. Suffice it to say, they were both experienced pilots.

The aircraft was an Eagle not an Auster or a Chipmunk. I only say this because speculation about the wrong type may be causing unnecessary concern

Seething is an easy airfield to land at. It seems something went horribly wrong and they collided with this tractor, the location is clear from the press photographs.

I don't think further speculation will help and it could be considered intrusive, so please wait until information is released officially.

ZA

[Lister Noble]

There is quite a bit of coverage on tonights BBC TV.
There is some speculation/discussion that the visibilty from the rear seat is not good coming in to land and that the tractor may have been obscured by the hedge.
I knew the pilot from his connection with the Red Sparrows,a Chipmunk four plane formation team,and have flown as a passenger in one of the other Chippies on their way to display at Duxford.
He was a really decent chap and we bumped into each other at various local airfields.
Can't say much more ,except I feel a bit choked at the moment.
We must now wait for the official reports and hope the other chap will be OK.
Lister

[Rallye Driver]

A sad loss. Ian helped us in the past with some formation coaching. A very helpful and friendly person.

It was a real shock to hear who was involved in this accident.

[Cusco]

I flew with him when he did an 'Aircraft owners ' article on our arrow which appeared in Pilot Mag Sept 2005.

Kind unassuming and generous and a skilful pilot.

I have no doubt he will be sadly missed.

Cusco

[BRL]

Just got back from two days away to read this. Terrible news. Ian was a regular contributer here under the name of 'Formationfoto'.

Condolences to his family and his close friends from here to, I am really sorry for you guys.

Let's hope the other guy pulls through.

R.I.P. Ian.

[DavidHoul52]

BBC report and video clip (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/7699216.stm)

Pilot magazine tribute (http://www.pilotweb.aero/content/articles/view_article.aspx?id=3619)

[treadigraph]

I was one of a number of people who crossed swords with Ian when Archent took over Pilot. Something he dealt with with considerable equanimity at the time and which was probably never acknowledged with hindsight - at least by me - and something I suspect he addressed to allay the concerns of Pilot aficionados. I am again a regular reader.

I never apologised; I regret that I cannot do so now.

A good bloke.

[vanHorck]

Sadness brings people together. It s only a small thing but it's something. RIP

[S-Works]

Has the other person onboard been identified yet?

[Nick Bloom]

Ian Davies died doing what he loved best - flying. All the team at Pilot feel his loss deeply and will miss him. The news came as we were going to press with our December issue, which has an Ian Davies article in it (on turboprops). We will be running an obituary in the January issue and welcome letter about Ian if anyone cares to send them to the magazine. - Nick Bloom, Editor.

[The Flying Pram]

A more detailed report is in todays Eastern Evening News 24 (http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=enonline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED30%20Oct%202008%2011%3A10%3A58%3A190)
A very sad day.

[S-Works]

I wonder if he was teaching? Met him a few times, aviation is a small world. A very pleasant man who was passionate about aviation.

The winter sun is terrible for in flight viz later in the afternoon on approach and in an aircraft with restricted viz could have made it difficult to see the tractor. Easy enough to catch even a highly experienced aviator.

[hatzflyer]

The passenger has an eagle registered to him.The plane was his according to reports.
I think you will find the Chipmunk was part owned by the pilot that died.
Sad.

[Yak11Fan]

Has it actually been said who was flying and who was sitting where???

[Cusco]

East Anglian BBC TV news this morning said the owner was flying and Ian was Pax: But then Journos are journos.

Cusco.

[DavidHoul52]

“We will be looking at the site, trying to work out how it hit the crop sprayer machine and how it ended up where it did,”


Is that a runway we see in the pictures? If so this statement sounds very odd.

[rauxaman]

I recall witnessing a collision between a landing Blanik glider and a farmer's Volvo back in the 70's... the farmer was driving across the active runway just as the Blanik was landing... a land vehicle has massive blind spot with regards to aircraft and the glider was totally comitted.

On this occassion the damage consisted of a severely bent metal skinned glider, the central door post of the Volvo was pushed back a couple of inches in the impact and the front seat pilot suffered a broken lower leg.

Let's learn from this incident and be very aware of this risk when operating in and out of agricultural airfields.

It goes without saying I sympathise with all parties and I have really enjoyed my past visits to Seething.

[DavidHoul52]

No doubt the AAIB needs to choose their words carefully.

Hopefully they will make some sort of safety recommendation to prevent this sort of situation in future.

Without coming to any speculation about the Norfolk crash what can reasonably be done (as a pilot) to minimise the possibility of a vehicle, person or animal suddenly moving on to the runway?

[rauxaman]

>>>what can reasonably be done (as a pilot) to minimise the possibility of a vehicle, person or animal suddenly moving on to the runway? <<<

There is nothing you can do... even turning on your landing lights won't make you visible through a car/lorry/tractor roof.

What you can do is broaden your field of view... carry out cross scans across the windscreen and side windows thereby broadening your peripheral vision. Also physically move your head in order to alter the perception of the ground.
Do not just focus ahead on the landing point, try to observe and anticipate any possible conflictions.
Please stay alert and don't become complacent... easy for me to type this, I have been as guilty as anyone in this department and incidents like this make you realise what can happen.

[mephisto88]

The name of the critically injured person has previously been disclosed in some media for those with genuine reasons to find out.
It may also be that his family at this time, would prefer not to have it splashed about on forums such as this.

May we please respect their privacy.

Suffice to say however he was a very seasoned and professional aviator who was extremely well respected in a couple of areas in which he has had significant experience over the many years I have had the pleasure of knowing him.

I'm sure we all wish him well and hope for a speedy recovery, our thoughts are not only with his family, but also with the family of the other gentleman.

[WorkingHard]

"No doubt the AAIB needs to choose their words carefully.
Hopefully they will make some sort of safety recommendation to prevent this sort of situation in future.
Without coming to any speculation about the Norfolk crash what can reasonably be done (as a pilot) to minimise the possibility of a vehicle, person or animal suddenly moving on to the runway?"
I hope everyone learns from a tragic accident but there would appear to be nothing to suggest the tractor was on or crossing the runway in this case. What sort of safety recommendations could be made, security fence the entire runway with controlled gates? What about the surounding fields etc, are they also to be subject to "recomendations"?
Accidents are accidents and as tragic as they are let us just please learn from the (possible) mistakes of others and get on with life and stop regulating.

[rauxaman]

You are correct... there is no evidence whether the tractor was on or crossing the runway and I apologise if anyone thinks I was jumping to conclusions or showing a lack of respect to the parties.

[DavidHoul52]

I was not jumping to conclusions. Just thinking about what might happen.

I also wish to make the point that how ever good a lookout a pilot makes there is nothing that can be done by the pilot if an object moves on to the runway at the last moment. The AAIB has previously suggested making changes at some aerodromes. Possibilities off top of my head are removing hedges or keeping them to a certain height (where appropriate. Notices on the ground to remind people of the dangers. That sort of thing. Over regulating is one thing, sensible precautions are another.

I take it Seething is not a farm strip.

The information given in the reports isn't sufficient to learn anything beyond knowing that it's risky around "agricultural" airfields (whatever that means - even Heathrow has agricultural land near by) and one needs to keep a good lookout. Keeping one's lookout wider than just narrowly focusing on the approach is excellent advice when it comes to other air traffic but I don't see how failure to do so could result in a collision with a slow moving object on the ground.

Talking about anticipating possible conflicts - the helicopters frequently hover next to runways scare the hell out of me. No doubt they only move with approval with ATC (if there is one).

[stiknruda]

The boom-sprayer WAS NOT crossing the runway. It remained on the field to the east of the 24 threshold.

It had been operating parallel to the north of the runway for some time and then turned south crossing the extended centreline to rv with a tractor towing a gasoil bowser for an intended refuel to the south side of the extended centreline. The ag equipment had every right to be where it was.

PLEASE STOP SPECULATING. For those of us involved, it is painful enough without having to endure ill-thought speculation.

My thoughts are with Collette, Francesca and Josh and I am really rooting for Steve, my best friend. His family are being well supported as they continue their vigil at Addenbrookes. He is being ventilated and is due for the next in a series of operations on Monday.

I implore you all to stop Monday-morning quarter-backing and await the outcome from the AAIB. The two senior AAIB inspectors whom I met yesterday are doing a difficult job in a very sensitive manner and I thank them for that.

Stik

[Cusco]

Good post Stik:

Let's hope it is heeded.

Cusco.

[DavidHoul52]

The boom-sprayer WAS NOT crossing the runway


Thanks for the clarification. I think that could be inferred from previous posts. I suppose I was moving on the runway infringements in general which perhaps should be in a separate thread.

No disrespect to anyone intended.

SticknRuda, I certainly hope your friend pulls through.

[Lister Noble]

A very valid post Stik,
I wasn't going to post anymore on here until all the facts are in the public domain.
There are many airfields around here with agricultural operations taking place alongside airstrips,and these co-exist quite happily and safely.

There are three families directly involved in this incident,don't forget the tractor driver who has been severely traumatised by this tragic accident.

Please can we keep speculation out of this, until the true facts are known.
Lister

[Charles Sierra]

Well posted Stik ,as you can imagine the mood today at EGSJ was one of thought and reflection.

[Chippyfan]

I am really rooting for Steve, my best friend. His family are being well supported as they continue their vigil at Addenbrookes. He is being ventilated and is due for the next in a series of operations on Monday.

I know of several people from long ago who are thinking about your friend (and ours) and his family too. We are hoping and praying for him and have shed many tears. Thanks you for taking the time to post on here and hope Monday sees an improvement.:sad::{:sad:

[172driver]

Without coming to any speculation about the Norfolk crash what can reasonably be done (as a pilot) to minimise the possibility of a vehicle, person or animal suddenly moving on to the runway?

What you do in Africa or other parts of the world before landing on a remote strip - make a low pass over the rwy and observe what's going on (or lurking) either side.

Stik - hope your mate makes it ok.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Stiknruda posted so very well.

Such an unfortunate accident, and living close to Seething and knowing what an excellent place it is to be at and fly in to, my heart goes out to all concerned.

I truly believe that the time for any speculation is ended, and a line be now drawn.

Accident - Noun - Literally, a befalling; an event that takes place without one's foresight or expectation; an undesigned, sudden, and unexpected event; chance; contingency; often, an undesigned and unforeseen occurrence of an afflictive or unfortunate character; a casualty; a mishap; as, to die by an accident.

[daisy120]

Stik, well posted and lets hope the quaterbacks stay in their armchairs and turn their attention to trivia. The facts will speak for themselves but in the meantime, prayers are at full N1 for Steve and ian's family. All the airbus guys are rooting for you old man, so hang in there and we look forward to a shed load of beers in the 'gay' bar when you're back on all fours.

[stiknruda]

Daisy et al,

Steve is my formation aerobatic display partner - my wing-man. Firstly, he had better pull through because I'd trust no one like I trust Steve and secondly I'm already missing the tales of derring do in the "gay bar" and nights out in LKF!

There is a great thread on the FH forum, which I will print out and make sure P sees.

Not many chaps around like Steve - so he had better get better soonish!

Stik

[deltakilochair]

Had the pleasure of flying with Ian -a very professional pilot and thoroughly decent and generous man. This is a tragic and shocking accident
I struggle to believe it.
If this can happen to a pilot of Ian's calibre what hope for the rest of us!
After 25 years and 500 hrs I am seriously considering giving up flying
Deepest sympathy to his family and friends.
Hope the other pilot makes a good and full recovery

[Pilot DAR]

How are the speculative posts with respect to accidents helping? It is my opinion that speculation on accidents has no place here. That is the responsiblility of the investigators, who sure are not posting it here! If you have first hand knowledge and choose to share it, that is worthy of consideration. If you have sympathy to share, I'm sure that is appreciated. If you've read the formal report and have a helpful comment about that, by then, perhaps the time is better, and you're commenting a report, more than an event.

My sympathy to those affected...

Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!

Pilot DAR

[englishal]

It is my opinion that speculation on accidents has no place here. That is the responsiblility of the investigators, who sure are not posting it here! If you have first hand knowledge and choose to share it, that is worthy of consideration.
That is just YOUR opinion.

Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!
Why don't you? You'd save yourself a lot of bother.

[DavidHoul52]

Ironically when the AAIB reports do come out there is little interest shown.

Any more news about how the other pilot is getting on?

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Says a lot about the pilots that such an accident has affected so many lives. If it can happen to such accomplished flyers then we should really take heed when the report is issued, and listen to Stik when he calls for restraint on the naturally human but sometimes rubbernecking type speculation.

BTW Did anyone else note this comment from a caring neighbour ?:*

"I live very near to this airfield. There's no flight control there and it was only a matter of time before before a serious accident happened. My sympathies go out to the man's family but thank heavens the tractor driver emerged unscathed.
- liz, norwich,uk, 30/10/2008 13:14"
May the bird of paradise **** all over her and her house :*

[C172 Hawk XP]

May the bird of paradise **** all over her and her house

That's totally uncalled-for, and very harsh in a debate like this.

Everyone is entitled to their own view on things, and in aviation we just have to accept that aerodromes will usually have some neighbours who do not share our enthusiasm. It's not a hobby like stamp collecting, which you can do in private and away from the view of others.

[niknak]

As I've said in a previous but very similar thread, comments are for the very large part well meant but often descend into the realms of down right unpleasant.
I think it's happened on every single fatal accident thread to date, someone always has to put the boot in and it usually needs some action by the Mod's to gain some sense of normality.

Clearly the deceased family will be most affected, but remember that there are always the other people involved who will have very vivid memories of what went on, not least those who iwere just njured and also (and just as importantly) those who were there when it happened and tried to help.

The AAIB report is clearly a long way off, but if you must speculate, try and do it with some sense of common decency.

[doubleu-anker]

Pilot DAR

"Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!"

Well if you are currently flying I would keep reading posts about accidents. This way you may learn from the mistakes of others, as you wont live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.

Sounds morbid but one should delve in and try and find out what went wrong or why it may of happened ASAP.

[Whirlygig]

you may learn from the mistakes of others, as you wont live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
Absolutely but one won't learn much about aviation from some of the speculative, ill-informed bilge that often gets posted here after an accident; possibly some of the rubbish could be harmful if people actually believe it!

Much better to learn from AAIB reports, CHIRP, Airprox etc.

Thankfully this thread is a better example and has not degenerated into the "spec-fest" that most post-accident/incident threads become.

Cheers

Whirls

[DavidHoul52]

There is the natural curiosity to know what happened even when hard facts are not known, along with a concern that "If it happened to them maybe it would happen to me".

So I feel the talk about a recent accident is healthy. The other extreme would be to be fatalistic and say "Accidents happen, but not very often. I fly as safely as I know, so it won't happen to me unless my time is up".

Having said that it's easy to overstep the mark in the quest to need to know.

In regards to this particular accident the reports were ambiguous and there were hints of a runway incursion, which we were later assured was not the case. It might have been helpful if this has been made common knowledge earlier.

[Pitts2112]

This debate of "should we or shouldn't we speculate" comes up after every significant or fatal accident and long and meandering threads always start at the same time. But the subject and the threads never come up when AAIB reports are issued and we could actually learn something. This tells me the intent of the speculation is more about morbid curiousity and car-wreck rubbernecking than genuine learning and improving one's own flying. You can color it any way you want, but that's the reality. And no one can learn anything significant from incomplete, and often erroneous, details of the incident, which are all that's available until the AAIB report is published, ergo, there is no real learning or useful debate to be had from these threads. They just serve to perpetuate rumour and Monday-morning quaterbacking.

I refuse to get involved in most of these for the above reason, and I think this one faded out so quickly because of Stik's eloquent post, which still stands as the best word on the subject.

Threads post-accident which celebrate the lives and times of the victims are most welcome and are genuinely useful to helping the family and the aviation community grieve the loss of a loved-one and, fortunately, that has been the lion's share of the content on this thread.

I know we'll never end the speculative threads any more than we'll keep drivers from slowing to 20 mph on the opposite side of a motorway from an accident, but these threads teach us no more than the drivers learn while rubbernecking. I just wish people would own up to that truth and decide not to add to them.

Now, back to celebrating the life and times of Ian and wishing Steve well. Please?

[S-Works]

Now, back to celebrating the life and times of Ian and wishing Steve well. Please?

With all due respect why? Most people have no idea who they are, they mean very little in relationship terms to other than a very few people on here. So an endless list of tributes who did not know them seems a little false and seems only to make those that did/do know them feel a little better. nothing more.

As far as speculation on accidents are concerned again it may hurt the sensibilities of a few that knew these people but speculation that will make people think and try and avoid the same situation can only help to prevent a similar tragedy.

As I see it the situation is fairly clear an aircraft with poor forward visibility low on finals possibly into a winter sun hits a farm vehicle on the undershoot to the runway. 1 person killed one critically injured. The lesson to learn for me would be to make sure I landed longer into the runway (that runway is plenty long enough).

In fact reading these posts there is very little in the way of speculation, just plenty in the way of people spouting off about how we should not be talking about it.

I knew both of the pilots in passing, pleasant people and a loss to aviation.

[Phil Space]

Spot on Bose.

A sad accident that involved three people but as the third was not a pilot his fate is of no interest to most of the previous posters. Just imagine how he must be feeling! As for speculative reports I thought the Eastern Daily Press did a very good job of the reporting.

The tractor driver, Andrew Hill, escaped serious injury but was recovering at home last night after being treated for shock. The aircraft came to a halt 30ft from his vehicle, which was on a field next to the runway.

Paul Bassett, a senior officer with the East of England Ambulance Service, said Mr Hill was lucky to walk away from the accident.

“From speaking to him, he didn't see the aircraft coming,” said Mr Bassett. “He heard the bang and wondered what it was. It was a lucky escape.

“The tractor was spraying the field. It remained upright. The only damage that I could see was to the large plastic truck which carries the liquid to put on to the field.”

Norfolk Fire Service watch manager Richard McGonagle said a fire broke out following the crash but it was dealt with by airfield staff.

“There was significant debris on the start of the approach to the runway and evidence of a collision with the agricultural vehicle. The aircraft was barely recognisable. The debris field suggests the aircraft collided with the crop-spraying tractor before it hit the ground.”

I don't think it is rocket science to agree with the theory put forward by Bose X. This is a rumours and news forum and for those who don't like it I suggest you waste your time elsewhere.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I think Bose-X sums up my personal view very well :ok:

It's all very well for the hand wringers to ask for everyone to wait for the formal reports, but these often take years to be published. In the meantime, somone else could be making the same mistakes that have resulted in an accident. If discussion and 'speculation' makes pilots think about all the things which may have caused the accident, then it's surely in our own interests to open up the debates.

[Phil Space]

This is the approach to 24 at Seething.
http://aeropigs.com/Seething-Approach.JPG
http://www.seething-airfield.com/images/airfieldplate.jpg

[119.35]

Unfortunately, if Pilot DAR had taken the time to read the thread he/she would have realised that there hasn't been as much speculation as on other threads.

But more importantly, it's plain to see that all speculation had in fact ceased for 2 weeks and people were showing respect following Stiknruda's post.

What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see. Why it happened will probably come out when the AAIB report.

Hopefully we can return to the previous level of respect that this thread had and obviously warrants.

[Phil Space]

There is further info on the accident on Paul Cox’s Christen Eagle II website
Christen Eagle II Aerobatic Biplane Sad, Sad News…Seething ‘Plane Crash (http://www.christen-eagle.com/?p=151)

The two pilots flying in G-EGUL were both extremely experienced. From initial reports, this looks like a truly freak accident where G-EGUL, reported to be low on final approach to the runway, appears to have hit a tractor which was crop spraying the land adjacent to the threshold (most of the land at Seething surrounding the runway and taxiways is laid over to crops). The tractor driver thankfully escaped injury. I understand from a source at the scene that Ian Davies was PIC (Pilot in Command) so he would’ve been flying from the rear seat - obviously normal for an Eagle. He wanted some time in the Eagle for a magazine article he was writing “Buying a Christen Eagle II”. Looking at the wreckage, it’s amazing that anyone survived.

[C172 Hawk XP]

What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see

Sorry, is it just me who's being a bit thick here ? That's a fantastic picture above of the approach to 24 at Seething, and the airfield map is useful too, but, if anything, they have left me even more confused about what happened and how it could have happened.

I thought I'd read earlier in the thread of some sort of obstructions to the total view down this approach ( hedges, trees ?). But there simply aren't any.

If, as has been said, the tractor / sprayer was on the land to the east of the 24 threshold, in that view above how would it be possible for anyone with normal vision to miss it ?

I'm now beginning to suspect that this may be more to do with the forward views available out of different aircraft, maybe even from different seats. The view from the front seat of our C172 is just like out of a car windscreen - just like the view shown above. I've never been in anything like an Eagle, and still less in the back seat.

Can anyone with such experience confirm whether the view posted by Phil above would be available to someone in the back seat of an Eagle ?
If not - is this not now something of much more concern ?

[Chipmunk Janie]

I was at the AAIB's hangar this week. If there is anyone who is unaware of the amazing work that these people do, I cannot recommend enough learning a little bit more about them.

As most of you are aware, following an accident, they do not sit around discussing it, the way we do here; they go into intense scientific analysis of the entire situation. They look at the condition of the aircraft before and after the event. They have means of telling whether damage to an aircraft was there prior or post an accident. They interview survivors, witnesses and family. Meteorological conditions and a whole number of other circumstances are taken into account. No stone is left unturned.

Importantly, their reports are purely objective. Subjective views are dangerous.

If someone posts something on a forum that I find upsetting, I send them a PM rather than bite in public. I am fortunate have had 100% success rate for turning people's attitude around by this method and I invariably befriend the person who originally upset me.

I have been absolutely devastated by the loss of Ian and I barely knew him. So far, his loss has brought a lot of people closer together and that has to be a good thing.

My thoughts are with his family, friends and the tractor driver; my prayers are with Steve and Stik.

[S-Works]

restricted view . . . . ?
Quote:
What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see
Sorry, is it just me who's being a bit thick here ? That's a fantastic picture above of the approach to 24 at Seething, and the airfield map is useful too, but, if anything, they have left me even more confused about what happened and how it could have happened.

I thought I'd read earlier in the thread of some sort of obstructions to the total view down this approach ( hedges, trees ?). But there simply aren't any.

If, as has been said, the tractor / sprayer was on the land to the east of the 24 threshold, in that view above how would it be possible for anyone with normal vision to miss it ?

I'm now beginning to suspect that this may be more to do with the forward views available out of different aircraft, maybe even from different seats. The view from the front seat of our C172 is just like out of a car windscreen - just like the view shown above. I've never been in anything like an Eagle, and still less in the back seat.

Can anyone with such experience confirm whether the view posted by Phil above would be available to someone in the back seat of an Eagle ?
If not - is this not now something of much more concern ?

.

The view from the back in even in a slipping constant aspect approach is not great. But add to the time of day of the accident and a watery winter sun which we had then (I was landing back at our place around the same time and opted to land with a tailwind because of the poor vis) and it is easy to see how the tractor could be missed.

[englishal]

As an Eagle pilot said to me the other day - "if you're straight for more than 5 seconds on final, it is too long" [because you can't see anything ahead].

I was landing back at our place around the same time and opted to land with a tailwind because of the poor vis
I did exactly the same a couple of days ago. Could not see sh*t on 25, so came into 07...

[Phil Space]

And I suspect ( barring mechanical problems uncovered by the AAIB )that Bose's conclusion on the cause of the accident is correct.

Some years ago I owned an aircraft which on initial purchase had a slightly crazed pilots screen. Visibility was fine until winter came and I found landing in to late afternoon sun nigh on impossible.

[119.35]

For C172 Skywhawk - 'clear for all to see' means simply that it is obvious that tragically an aircraft struck a tractor. Nothing more, nothing less.

I then said that 'Why it happened will probably come out when the AAIB report.' So quite clearly, it is not meant as a contribution towards why the accident may have happened and you have quoted out of context.

I apologise if what I said sounded ambiguous or confusing.

[DavidHoul52]

But the subject and the threads never come up when AAIB reports are issued and we could actually learn something.


Not true. I started a least two myself and more have been added by others. All provoked a lot of thoughtful and helpful discussion.

[C172 Hawk XP]

C172 Hawk XP- 'clear for all to see' means simply that it is obvious that tragically an aircraft struck a tractor. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I do understand that. Since then others have clarified about the poor view from the back seats of some types.
We are not disagreeing ! ! :ok:

[SpeedbirdXK8]

This may have been posted already but in memory of Ian his family has asked for donations to the East Anglian Air Ambulance - write a note saying it is in memory of Ian with your BIG cheque. Also, Pilot Mag are thinking of a lasting a fitting way for us to never forget Ian. RIP mate - I will always remember standing at Old Buck with you and Josh watching a Spitfire do a low pass....

[srobarts]

Sad news from todays Eastern Daily Press
EDP24 - Second flyer dies from air tragedy (http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED20%20Nov%202008%2018%3A32%3A14%3A917)

[SiClick]

Air Accidents Investigation: September Bulletin (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/september_bulletin.cfm)

[Phil Space]

The report has now been published.

It appears pressure to get pictures for a flying magazine led to this fatal accident.

[Justiciar]

It appears pressure to get pictures for a flying magazine led to this fatal accident.

If you don't have anything useful to say I suggest you shut the f*ck up.

[Katamarino]

To be fair, the report does imply that that was involved. Although apparently the accident was on the landing run, so it seems the breaking of the low-flying rules did not directly contribute.

[S-Works]

Justiciar
Quote:
It appears pressure to get pictures for a flying magazine led to this fatal accident.
If you don't have anything useful to say I suggest you shut the f*ck up.

Don't think there is any need for that.

People are entitled to an opinion and reading the report I could see where P's view came from.

[Whirlygig]

the report does imply that that was involved.
You might have inferred that but I don't believe the report implies it. All the required photos had been taken before the accident occurred.

Cheers

Whirls

[Phil Space]

The report did state that low flying had taken place in contravention of the club's rules and I'm sure the ANO. The photgrapher was also in place at the side of the runway as the aircraft approached.

I suspect the captains inexperience on type would not have helped.

[glennahall]

What is the url to see the final reports?

Thanks!

[Whirlygig]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Christen%20Eagle%20II,%20G-EGUL%2009-09.pdf

Cheers

Whirls

[stiknruda]

I lost my best friend and formation display partner in this accident and knew very well the "pilot/author". I also know the third victim, the sprayer driver.

The AAIB report was made available to certain interested parties in draft format earlier this summer and we were able to comment upon it - it appear that these changes have in the main been incorporated in the report.

I believe that the AAIB guys have produced a very fair, sensitive and empathetic report.

From my perspective and I am better informed than most who will comment on this thread, that there are no safety recommendations really reinforces that this was a tragic accident. A couple of seconds either way and I'd be having a beer in the pub with him tonight.

Al Coutts

[Katamarino]

As one aim of the flight was to get photographs of the aircraft landing, and the photographer had moved closer to the runway threshold for the second approach, there would have been a desire on the part of the crew to avoid landing a long way up the runway a second time. This may have caused the crew to modify their next circuit.

So, an implication, but it's obviously impossible for us to ever know either way. A horribly unlucky accident, either way.

[BRL]

Al, you have a PM.

[S-Works]

My reading of it just makes me think that it was just a really unlucky accident.

You could do a dozen what if's and change the scenario but at the end of the day as with any other accident the dice fell the wrong way.

A sad end for fellow aviators and a few lessons to be learn't but I see nothing that darkens the memory of our fellow enthusiasts.

Live is nothing without an element of risk.

[Justiciar]

I did not know Steve Shutt as well as Al - I had only known him since owning a share in G-EGUL. We had all dined a month before and looked forward to many years flying and shared ownership. It was a horendous and tragic accident which everyone whose life Steve touched felt deeply. When I saw someone leaping in to point the finger this morning on the basis on zero facts to support his position I am afraid I lost it. Apologies to all.

[Legalapproach]

Justiciar

I don't think there is any need to apologise, you were very close to those involved in this accident. I knew Ian and had been speaking to him on the Sunday before the accident. I had met Steve and he seemed an A1 bloke. I was driving close enough to Seething to see the Air Ambulance screaming overhead and actually thought "He's going to bust straight through the Seething ATZ at that rate." The news on the local television that evening was a real shock.

The comment about pressure to get a photograph for the magazine seems to me to be both uncalled for and plain wrong. The type of flight profile was the same as flown by Ian on numerous previous occasions and we are all familiar with his articles and the photos illustrating them.

This appears to have been a tragic accident and the cause will be understandable to any of us who are experienced on the Pitts, Eagle and similar types. As Al says the AAIB have produced a thorough, very fair, sensitive and empathetic report. There are few, if any, new lessons to be learnt from it.

Let's not start going through it with a fine tooth comb only to seek to criticise the memories of two good husbands, fathers and total aviation people


Legalapproach

[Phil Space]

Maybe time for magazines to use photo shoots in a more controlled environment?

Seething has been used by a flying magazine as a base for it's articles for a number of years since Archant took over.

[Justiciar]

Legalapproach:

Many thanks for summing up so well.

I believe I've just sussed who you are. Now flying an L4, by any chance?

[Lister Noble]

Maybe time to put this episode to bed?
Lister

[Legalapproach]

Justiciar;

Might be, depends whose asking:ok:

[Molesworth 1]

The investigation concluded that the aircraft’s final approach was flown such that its occupants were unable to ensure that the flight path ahead was clear of obstacles.


"Tragic accident" this certainly was, but from the above it doesn't seem to me that this was just an "unlucky accident". Does not the wording imply that it was preventable?


Live (sic) is nothing without an element of risk.


Yes, I agree but is it acceptable to land this type of aircraft close to the threshold given the lack of forward visibility?

I'm not meaning to cause hurt to those who knew these gentlemen but I don't buy the view that there's not a wake up call to the rest of us here.

[Phil Space]

I think that from the previous posts those of us outside the UK will recognise that there is a movement to close this incindent.

However this airfield has been used by Archant for many years for both their flying magazine Pilot and aerial photo's for the Eastern Daily Press morning newspaper.

PPL Mike Page at Seething has supplied hundreds of aerial pictures for Archant (Pilot and Eastern Daily Press) every year and Ian Davies did the flying.

So where does Archant feature in this accident?

[Justiciar]

Might be, depends whose asking

I had share in the said cub until about 9 months ago! Now Felthorpe based. I think we last spoke down at Bishopgate a few years ago now. Lets say I have moved out of a life of crime for something a bit more civilised with more regular hours!!

[stiknruda]

I always land on the threshold/piano-keys (or at least attempt to!) in this sort of a/c.

However I never drag the a/c down the extended centre line, Steve, Justiciar and I always flew a curving approach. We'd only make the centre line when the wheels were just about to touch the surface.

On this fateful occasion, a lower than normal straight in final precluded either occupant from seeing the obstruction.

A straight in approach is fine for flap equipped a/c where the application of flaps tends to move the C of P aft and correspondingly the nose down to improve the view............................................

Some folk seem to revel in analysis-overload. Phil Space, you seem to be fixated with :sad:what-if's.

Had I not arranged some A2A pix of the a/c as a surprise for the owners, then Pilot mag might not have decided to do a feature on a strikingly pretty rebuilt Eagle. Had Steve not been a Flt Cdr on 41 Sqn, then I might never have met him and decided to put together Nelson Formation

Can we please now let this rest? Four children are without fathers, one very young and two wives have had their lives ripped apart.

Many victims of this ACCIDENT - not just Steve and Ian,

[gasax]

I have not connection to the people (although the aircraft was in this locality a long time ago).

There is an awful lot of circumstancial information being threaded together to try and create a 'smoking gun' from what I can see.

The rear seat of an Eagle has poor visibility (not that the front seat is much better). The events prior to the accident are interesting background but no more than that. The reason for the flight happened to be a magazine shoot - would it have been completely different if it were not? From my reading not with the same crew onboard.

The accident might not have happened it the usual pilot or more experienced Eagle pilot have been flying - but that is a 'may' nothing more. The photo on short finals shows sunlight illuminating the scene - from the approach side there was obviously little to be seen. The pilot might have chosen to land a little deeper (or not) depending on the light, it might have actually been easier to aim for the threshold - it often is at my strip.

The incident strikes me as being much more of a real accident than the vast majority of incidents. It was pretty plainly 'unlucky' timing, distance, light any of these factors would have meant that the accident did not happen.

I'm sure all sorts of stuff will be posted, all sorts of 'remedies' suggested. I think it was a very unfortunate accident, where a variety of circumstances conspired to create this accident.

[stiknruda]

Gasax - the view from the rear of the Eagle is actually better than from the front seat.

The view from the front is v similar to the single seat Pitts.

I only have >700 hours in Eagles and both single and two-hole Pitts', but feel qualified to comment.

[Flash0710]

Yes please turn this in....

a personal request from the Photographer....

They Died trying to make us happy.......

Luv

xxx

f

[Phil Space]

Not at all!

You try telling that to the wife and family of the commercial pilot who owned the aircraft.

He was sitting in the P2 seat when he entrusted the aircraft that was on an Archant photo shoot for Pilot that hit the tractor.

I'm sure that this thread will soon be pulled but there are major legal implications
for clubs and pilots who allow magazines to do these test flights without the correct paperwork in place.

Seething has been been a base for the Pilot photo crew for some years.

Google it!

[Molesworth 1]

I empathise with the emotional need for closure on this, but the AAIB report has just come out and I feel there are important human factor issues here which can and are leading to a constructive dialog.

[S-Works]

What human factors? Come on people, this is turning into an archant witch hunt.

This was an unfortunate accident that could have happened to anyone of us. Ian Davis was legal to be PIC, had appropriate differences training for tailwheel aircraft and was experienced and qualified to be able to self check on the type. If the tractor had been in a different place, the approach higher or more curved etc are comments born from the gift of hindsight. The fact is that the holes lined up in the cheese in this occasion and fate took a hand.

Thats all there is to say, lets let our fellow aviators rest in the peace they deserve and be mindful that fate is always the hunter to everyone of us.

[stiknruda]

I have PM'd Phil Space about some of his speculation.

Stik/Al

[Justiciar]

I too have taken this up with Phil Space privately. He does though appear to have an obsession with Seething and I am unclear why.

[YakAngel]

Well, Mr Space, if you'd read the AAIB report in FULL, you will see that this sortie was well briefed (as were all of the flights by the accident pilot - I knew and flew with him for both air to air and formation displays).

What all of the reports fail to mention is that Seething (both now and at the time of the accident) has a Rule 5 exemption form the CAA.

Not that this mattered because the accident occurred when the aircraft was coming into land off a go-around from an aborted landing due to a bounce.

And as for the the airfield management "not being notified" of the activity - why would/should they be? It's an airfield - and nothing illegal or remotely strange (now that you have all the facts re Rule 5) was going on.

No rules were being broken, and the pilot, a regular flyer from the airfield will have been all too aware of the operating procedures of the field.

Unfortunately, (as is often the case), it was a factor of circumstance. 30 seconds timing difference either way, and no accident would have occurred.

----

From a fellow Class Rating Instructor and Display Pilot.

[Lister Noble]

I wasn't sure whether to post this as I thought this thread would close.

Last Sunday I was on final in the Cub and noticed a tractor ploughing on the field adjacent to the runway threshold, I observed for a little and reckoned I would probably clear him as he would have passed across my path,approaching closer I realised I might hit him so applied power ,climbed a little and landed further down the strip.
On my landing run I called another aircraft on downwind to warn him of the situation.
Last year I had a similar happening and chose to go around.

The point of this post is that-
1-Flying in the farmland areas of E. Anglia we are often using strips/runways adjacent to farming operations.
2-I did not have an accident because I could see the working farm machinery on approach.

If I had been flying an aircraft with poor forward visibilty then the outcome could ave been very different.
Accidents happen ,despite our best intentions and they are not always automatically caused by negligence on the pilots behalf.

The report said it was a tragic accident without blame to either pilot

Lister

[Cows getting bigger]

No it didn't. It said:

The investigation concluded the aircraft's final approach was flown such that its occupants were unable to ensure that the flightpath ahead was clear of obstacles.

There is no reference to "tragic accident" and the AAIB, rightly, never allocate blame.

[aviate1138]

cowsgettingbigger
"and the AAIB, rightly, never allocate blame."


Not sure that is true. A microlight crash in Kent some years ago had remarks by an AAIB Inspector that should not have been included in the report.

Caused a lot of problems, cost a lot of money.

[Cows getting bigger]

.... and they now make doubly sure they no longer apportion blame.

[Molesworth 1]

There was a lot of uninformed discussion about this before the report came out. Now we have a lot of new information.

Bose-x - no one wants a witch-hunt. Yes, it could of happened to anyone and there is no reason to point fingers.

Yet the report does mention a number of contributing factors which as you say happened to coincide - but isn't that the way with most accidents?

Bottom line (according to the report - and I paraphrase) the pilots were not able to see the approach path at all times and the flight should have been flown in a way that they could.

We can move on - yes - but why can't we take this statement seriously?

[S-Works]

Molesworth, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. Please don't ever make a mistake that will allow others to dance on your grave.

[BRL]

Well, I have thought long and hard about this and I am closing it.

Please PM me or email if you want to take this up further.

[Lister Noble]

There was a very sensitve and factual report on BBC Look East this evening regarding the tragic accident at Seething Airfield last year ,involving an aircraft in collision with an agricultural spraying machine.
Lister

[BRL]

Here is the clip Lister was talking about

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Norfolk | Inquest opens into crash deaths (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/8305174.stm)

[Justiciar]

The inquest concluded last week with a finding of accidental death. Evidence was given by the highly experienced photographer and by the airfield management that the pilots briefed for three circuits, the airfield had a Rule 5 exemption, Ian Davis was permitted to use this exemption once per month, he had not used it in October 2008 and there was no low flying beat up of the airfield. The crash happened off the third circuit. Everything to do with this flight was legal and the sortie was planned with the total professionalism to be expected of two hugely experienced and respected pilots.

I knew Steve, hence my interest in the record being put straight. The AAIB report contains some serious omissions which made it look as though the pilots wilfully disregarded the local rules of the airfield. This is not so and this lack of balance is now being taken up with the AAIB.

I hope the usual suspects don't jump back onto this thread and use it as a hook on which to hang the various issues they obviously had with anything remotely connected with the airfield.

[stiknruda]

I attended the inquest and it is just as Justiciar said!

The coroner when advising the jury during the summing up said "these two men died in a tragic accident whilst doing something that they clearly loved".

Stik

[Molesworth 1]

Nice to have a good conclusion to this thread!