When do you start logging time?

[JP1]

I see that in a thread below (or maybe above now!) someone has quoted a section out of LASORS..

Article 155
(2) An aircraft shall be deemed to be in flight:
(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its own power until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing;


Why the plethora of clauses that convolute the text so as to make understanding so difficult to comprehend. (not necessarily in the above though) Is it that over time amendments have been made to close abuses or unintended interpretations of the regulation?


So to the above extract:-

1) "in the case of a piloted flying machine" ..... Have pilots been logging P1 for pilot-less aircraft :confused:

2) "for the purpose of taking off" ..... Pilots were logging P1 for moving the aircraft under it's own power when there was no intention of taking off.

And the one I really like.

3) "from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew"..... So have we had a crew member logging P1 when he was not actually in the aircraft?? Co-pilot start-up taxis out, Captain joins him at the threshold. :confused:

[BackPacker]

3) "from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew"..... So have we had a crew member logging P1 when he was not actually in the aircraft?? Co-pilot start-up taxis out, Captain joins him at the threshold.

Ah, no. The co-pilot logs P1 for the taxi bit. You can hardly be "in command" if you're not in the aircraft, can you (unless it's a pilotless, radio-controlled aircraft)?

Question is, during that taxi bit, was the co-pilot PF or PNF?


Personally, I've been involved in another interesting scenario. Taxiing out for my first solo and the aircraft failing its runup checks at the hold, so taxi back to the school to had the engineers take a look. I had moved the aircraft with the intention of taking off, so legal to log P1. My second first solo actually got me into the air (and safely down).

There's also a bunch of interesting scenarios where the pilot hand-swings the prop but forgot the chocks or brakes so the aircraft starts taxiing, or even taking off, on its own. How do you log that?

[Whirlygig]

2) "for the purpose of taking off" ..... Pilots were logging P1 for moving the aircraft under it's own power when there was no intention of taking off.
Ground runs? Engineering testing?

Someone, somewhere will always think of a loophole and that is why all rules, legislation and regulations are written in this manner. Spend enough time reading this sort of English, and you get used to it! LASORS isn't too bad; try some of the Taxes Acts!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Jumbo Driver]

I see that in a thread below (or maybe above now!) someone has quoted a section out of LASORS..

I don't wish to detract from your argument JP1 ... but the quote is from Article 155 of the ANO, and not from LASORS ...

JD
;)

[Jumbo Driver]

How does this work for helicopters? Does the rotor going around equal the machine moving under it's own power, or does it mean when you actually lift?

For helicopters, Hooloovoo, the relevant paragraph (ANO) is

Article 35

3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.

JD
:)

[Jumbo Driver]

... oh dear ... such pedantry, Hooloovoo ...

The licence you hold (I assume) is to fly a helicopter - and not part of a helicopter - so I would guess it means when the whole helicopter moves under its own power ... but I may be wrong ...

In my humble opinion, it means when the helicopter moves under its own power, i.e ground taxy, air taxy, lift, or whatever it does to itself to physically displace itself from its previous position, for the eventual purpose of taking off ...

To employ "plain English" one must assume some "common sense", surely ... ? Or perhaps the current wording is an attempt to pre-empt mischievous interpretations such as yours ... !


JD
;)

[BackPacker]

I always thought helicopters did not move under their own power but were repelled by the earth for being so ugly...:confused:

Another question. I have heard that, amongst others, Heathrow may be going to be experimenting with using tugs to take the aircraft from the apron to the hold, and then starting the aircrafts engines only at the hold. Environmental concerns such as fuel consumption, noise etc. are the reason for this. In this case, the aircraft is not moving under it's own power, but it is moving with the intention of taking off, and there is a pilot in command. How to log this?

[Jumbo Driver]

Whether or not your assertion that everyone flying an R22 has illegally logged time in their book! is correct (and I rather doubt it), I still think your interpretation of the law is wrong in this regard. The fact that "everyone does it" doesn't necessarily make it correct.

Why don't you try and clarify it with the CAA? I wish you luck ... ;) but I confess I really can't get excited about it ... :bored:


JD
:)

[Jumbo Driver]

I'm not trying to have anything both ways - maybe you are, tho' ...

I suppose if you are hours building in an R22, you would hardly want to seek a clarification of something which would be to your disadvantage, would you?

JD
:bored:

[LH2]

Is it that over time amendments have been made to close abuses or unintended interpretations of the regulation?

Funny how this kind of ties in with a comment of mine posted on a different thread (http://http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/346852-intereuropean-light-aircraft-ferry-flight.html#post4486391) a few days ago.

I think it's just what the customer demands.

[Jumbo Driver]

Sure you are. You're saying you doubt that the worldwide recognised way to log R22 time is illegal, and yet my interpretation of the relevant rule is still wrong.

On the contrary, Hooloovoo, please re-read my post - you have misunderstood me. I expressed doubt about you being correct in your assertion that everyone flying an R22 has illegally logged time in their book! because I can't believe everyone logs the time the way you say, as it seems contrary to the wording of Article 35. I was not expressing doubt that they could be wrong.

Put simply, my point remains that to start logging time from "rotors running" is not in accordance with ANO Article 35, whether or not it is, as you claim, "the worldwide recognised way".

I really think this point has run its course, as we are clearly not going to agree ...


JD
:bored:

[Jumbo Driver]

I see some irony in the fact that I have not made myself clear to you in an earlier post on this topic, entitled as it is "Plain English". :confused:

Equally, I am not sure what lesson is to be learned from this - however maybe it should simply discourage me from further postings on this point..? :hmm:

On this basis, I will return to lurking on this thread ... and also now on Rotorheads, maybe ...

JD
;)

[simon54]

Lasors 2008 section A - appendix B recording flight time. (page 40) says:

"Helicopter flight time
The total time from the moment a helicopters rotor blades
start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes
to rest at the end of the flight and the rotor blades are
stopped."

if thats what you meant

[Bravo73]

...but when do you start?

Er, when "the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off".

ie when it lifts into the hover (for skidded aircraft) or when it starts to taxi (for wheeled aircraft - as long as the taxi phase ends with a lift, and is not just ground positioning).

[Bravo73]

Ignore LASORS - after all, it is only an interpretation of the ANO. (And in this case, it's wrong. And not for the first time.)

The ANO (which you quoted) is the law.


(If you're still wondering about the LASORS reference, think about it this way: according to the LASOR's criteria, you can start up, run on the ground for 30mins then go flying for 5mins. Is this really 35mins of flight time?)

[212man]

The LASORS reference comes from JAR FCL-2 and is at variance from the ANO - this has been known for sometime. The ANO definition is the one that should be used in the UK, and B73 has described it's interpretation correctly. The point about "intending to take off" is important as it rules out ground runs and other ground taxying (such as a compass swing in a wheeled helicopter)

Being in command is nothing to do with flying time - that starts when you sign your name in the tech log :ok:

[Bravo73]

In an R22 it is AFAIK universal to write in your log book the time recorded on the datcon, which runs from engine start to engine stop. Does that mean R22 operators are recording an illegal times?


Yes. (As was pointed out in the thread that you got locked over on the Private forum, just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it either right or legal.)

[Bravo73]

It's not locked?

It was when I made the comment. BRL has now unlocked it and, for some reason, made a copy of the thread over here.

I agree. So how come it's actively taught this way in every flight school I've ever been to?

A) It's easier this way. B) But more importantly, so that you can be billed for the time.

What's the point in having the rule if it is universally ignored? Even in the R44 where the datcon doesn't start rolling until you pull the lever, it's usual to log an extra +0.1 to take into account the warm up time.

See point B) above. The collective mounted switch was introduced for this very reason. Schools that add the extra 0.1hrs don't want to lose out on the revenue that they were getting previously.

[Bravo73]

Makes no sense to me.

That's because you currently want to log as much time as possible. Most of us want to get the aircraft shut down ASAP. :ok:

[RavenII]

LooL, there is some truth in that :ok:

[Hughes500]

Well yesterday, I shut a 300 down got out and walked away, due to a bit of wind I actually managed to get the kettle on and nearly make a cup of tea before the rotors had stopped. Not that I need anymore hours but I could log the hours while drinking tea in the crewroom !!!

[Senior Pilot]

R44 flight time discussion, in this thread (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/269712-robinson-log-times-factor-1-12-a.html) :ok:

[P1DRIVER]

VA
Have to agree with you here.Engine start to engine stop which is effectively rotors running to rotors stopped on most helies.
If them blades are turning youre in command of an aircraft.If some thing happens you,re the commander (PIC time in log book))

[Heliringer]

Here in Australia it's Rotors engaged for the purpose of flight, so engine on to engine off if you are going flying. Can't log ground running and quite right too. When I say ground running I mean where you don't intend flying. I.E track and balance on the ground. Fan balance if a robbie.
Ringer

[Bravo73]

Well, you're both wrong, I'm afraid. Hooloovoo was even kind enough to post what the actual UK regulations are in his original opening post (http://www.pprune.org/4489199-post18.html).


(Edited to add: Sorry Heliringer. You posted just before I had a chance to hit 'Submit'. My post was aimed at va and P1DRIVER.)

[Bladecrack]

I log what the VEMD says on shutdown...:p

[Bravo73]

va,

Really? Well, I imagine that you also fly G-BIRO regularly... :rolleyes:

[TheVelvetGlove]

It is all very simple, really- you log what is being paid for.

If you are paying for R-22 time form the datcon, then that is what you log.

If your customer is paying for collective time, then that is what you log.

How simple! As an added plus- it goes against all logic and will surely upset the regulatory nazi's!! :}

[Exo.]

Hmm, should somebody tell the CAA then that a large number of pilots might be over-estimating their flight time for the purposes of certification of JAA licences? Or, hang on, if it's a JAA licence, it falls under JAR FCL rule and thus warrants the logging from rotor start to stop; despite the fact that UK rules dictate logging only from movement.

Interesting.

[malc4d]

Jeeez... l was just told by a D.E. here in Orlando, that the FAA want us only to log the time from skips up to skids down and not the whole hobbs time..........:hmm:

So who is in control when doing all the start and checks, then.........:eek:
He also said that that applies to fixed wing as well ........

[SASless]

FAR Part 1 Definitions

"Flight time" means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

[Canuck Guy]

Sounds like you've been logging time like a Canadian lol.:}

[Gordy]

Legal opinion on the matter:

“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration

APR 27 2007
(address omitted)

Dear Mr. (omitted),

This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.

Your three questions are:

1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?

2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?

3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?

The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "
ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.

It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.

This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.

Sincerely,

Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”

[fadecdegraded]

I know what the rules say and thats how i log my time, but have had this conversation before. Has anyone ever read an accident report where the helicopter came to some sort of grief while running on the ground, such as someone walking into the tail rotor.(heaven forbid) The report usally refers to the PIC at some stage. The PIC still takes the rap for the accident (whatever the situation may be) but is not logging the flight time, but still has full responsibility for the A/C
And then if you fly an R22 you log the hr meter hrs run off the engine oil pressure, so are logging ground running time as well.
We all know how long it takes some of our fixed wing friends to taxi, run up hold etc, and they can log the lot.
Rules are rules i surpose, but like someone once told me they are for the protection of fools and the guidence of wise men

[SASless]

No one ever accused the Rulers of the Air of being fair or logical.:=

If something this minor gets yer knicks in a knot.....have you ever got a tough life coming if you take up helicopter flying as a profession!:E

[HELOFAN]

Isn't the rotors turning considered moving?

What about a little movement of the tailboom during say a needle split?

Surely.

HF

[RMK]

Remember the R44 Hobbs is collective actuated whereas the R22 starts counting when you twist the key. I don’t know how the 300 keeps count.

[malc4d]

Hey SAS....
When you are a loooooow time pilot, every tenth of an hour is important, or dont you remember that far back........;)

Good point fadecdegraded

300 has a hobbs and a tac meter

[SASless]

Young Lad,

There is a point in life where you cease logging time while in sight of the aircraft and get to logging your days off. One day you will get around to totaling up the page totals and you will be surprised you are still around to do so.

Just never lose your love of flying helicopters because after that it just becomes a way of earning a living....meager as it is.

The day you make a "perfect" approach and landing and you don't get that warm glow is the point at which flying just became a "job".

[helimutt]

So I was looking through Lasors and JAR-FCL2 amendments last night, as you do, and I notice something I hadn't seen before.

Flight time:
[The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.];)

This would add about 5 minutes minimum to our flight time every single start, sometimes more.
I'm sure I was told previously it was the time when the aircraft first moved under it's own power for the purpose of flight, until the rotors stopped.
I know this statement still stands for fixed wing though according to JAR-FCL.

How does everyone else log helicopter flight time? First taxi to rotor stop?

[JAA/FAA Pilot]

I log "Rotor Turning Time" which is in most helicopters, engine start to shut down.
This is in accordance with JAR-FCL 2 and was requested by our authorities.

[ILblog]

Well and someone knows what to write to logbook instead of airport ICAO code, if I land in my farm o some other off-airport site?

[Kangia]

Hi helimutt, if you fly a 'G' reg machine it's first movement to rotor stop but rotor start to rotor stop for pretty much every other JAR country.

[helimutt]

Well if I look at the CAA website, that's what's written, so where does it say it's different in UK? And why?


ILblog, just write the name of the place you land. Doesn't need to be an ICAO code surely??

[Whirlygig]

I think this has been discussed before and that there is a discrepancy between the ANO and JAR-FCL2. I do take off to rotor stop.

As for location of take-off and landing, I just write the place.

Cheers

Whirls

[Camp Freddie]

the discrepancy as i understand it is between the ANO and ICAO,

ICAO - Rotor start till Rotor Stop
ANO - first moves under own power until rotor stop.

for my company FTL i used ANO, but in my logbook I have always written it the ICAO way, if you are a low timer it can make quite a difference for you getting minimum hours for licensing purposes.

regards

CF

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

I generally use the weight on wheels airborne time (actual airborne time in minutes) logged by the aircraft, rounded up appropriately if I've had to ground taxi before departure.

I've never used from rotor start - I reckon I could add a few hundred hours to my logbook if I had.

The UK ANO is backed up by UK law, ICAO rules aren't necessarily so.

[Gordy]

For those in the US...the rules are different---one can only log that time the aircraft moves under its own power till it stops, (mx hobbs NOT blade time). For those who are trying to obtain ratings in the US, if you use rotor start to stop, you will have hours deducted from your total time.

Here is a letter from the FAA Chief Council Office:

“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration

APR 27 2007
(address omitted)

Dear Mr. (omitted),

This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.

Your three questions are:

1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?

2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?

3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?

The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.

It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.

This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.

Sincerely,

Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”

[Heli-Ice]

This is one of the few things in the JAR's that are pretty simple.

According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.

Not excactly rotors running time since the machine can sit for a prolonged time before flight is commenced, say during pre-flight checks. Usually, the helicopter is not run for long after the flight.

During aerial work where you land and take off all the time, I think it is not wise to have the pilot to calcluate the ground time off his flight time. The difference between technical time (skids on time) and flight time can be some and you as a pilot log the flight time according to the relevant regulations while the helicopters technical tie is logged according to different regs., not to be confused.

The pilot is (at least he is expected to be) at the controls all the time and the helicopter is handled as in "flying" conditions while rotors are running. Thats what the JAR's expect.

[helimutt]

This is one of the few things in the JAR's that are pretty simple.

According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.




I disagree. Look up JAR-FCL 2.001 and look up Flight Time Recording for helicopters and planes. Unless of course you can direct me to where it states what you have written?

[Whirlygig]

you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.I think this is what the UK ANO stipulates? :confused:

Cheers

Whirls

[Heli-Ice]

helimutt

I stand corrected.

I wrote my post out of my apparently not so good memory. Checklists were made for people like me. :O

According to FCL 2.001 and the Icelandic regulations on flight crew licensing (based on JAR-FCL 2 Amd. 6), this is exactly as you state, i.e. Rotors turning time.

"Flight time:
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."

So how does one log the rotors turning time if the helicopter is wheeled and you only do some taxying during maintenance and such? Or when only doing ground runs? No flight in there is it?

Sorry for the confusion people.

[Whirlygig]

surely it would be the JAR definition that I should be working to for my own personal log book?You'd have thought so but, in the UK, the Air Navigation order is law and therefore takes precedent over JAR.

Cheers

Whirls

[VeeAny]

For the UK I guess its still not changed from when the CAA issued this back in 2003.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1_2003_H.pdf

ANO definition stands in their eyes (if the ANO applies to you).

[helimutt]

Glad that clears that up then, so if anything were to happen (ie go wrong) just after starting up(rotors turning) but we haven't yet moved, then no-one can be blamed for it as there is no Pilot In Command. Not if the time can't be logged somehow??????

Any idea when the CAA plan to use the JAR regs over the ANO as i'm pretty sure we all hold JAR licences now! UK CAA:mad: !!

[rotarywise]

The UK CAA will never use JAR-FCL over the ANO - The 'R' stands for Requirements, not Regulations and the UK, like all other member states, will continue to meet those requirements that it chooses to by means of amendments to its national legislation (the ANO). Once EASA finally gets itself sorted out and completes the process of introducing Parts FCL, OR and AR into EU law, the ANO will become defunct in those areas. Only then will you see what regulatory incompetence really means!

[helimutt]

More regulatory incompetence? Surely not?


Can't wait.

[Ascend Charlie]

This whole thread is focussed on the words "Moves under its own power."

There isn't a helicopter that I have flown that DOESN'T move as soon as the engine starts - various shakes, rattles and rolls as blades spin up and so on.

It is moving. Up and down, side to side. Log it.:8

[helimutt]

I totally agree. It doesn't necessarily state which part has to move either, ie blades! :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Damned Biro pilots.... :rolleyes:

I'm sure there must be a miniscule airframe twitch when the battery is turned on and the little gyro in the standby horizon starts up; why not log that time, too?

[Ascend Charlie]

Well, I have over 13,000 hrs and they have been logged from engine start to engine shutdown. If the blades keep spinning after shutdown, tough luck. But when those blades are being powered, somebody has to assume responsibility for them, and if that's me, I'm logging it.:8

[FH1100 Pilot]

Guys, remember that, unlike an airplane's propeller, the rotor blades of a helicopter are an airframe part. Thus, when the rotor blades are moving, the airframe is, it can be argued, moving. Thus(2), we can see the JAR justification for the way they log time, as opposed to in the U.S., where even the maintenance side of the FAA mistakes rotor blades for propellers.

However, some misinformed lawyer in the U.S. FAA decided that American pilots will only log flight time in accordance with how component time is logged (i.e. "skids off to skids on")... Except... Except for wheeled helicopters which can inexplicably log flight time (but not necessarily compoent time!) the way airplanes do... which doesn't make any sense.

Whilst getting your ratings, log your time whichever way your country's regs specify. After that, who cares? The regs don't cover it if you're not going for a certificate or rating.

[ShyTorque]

Section 35, Part 4 of CAP393, the UK ANO, which is about Personal Flying Logbooks:

3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.

My interpretation of the above quote is to log time only from when the aircraft begins to ground taxy, or when you raise the collective to lift off, in a skidded aircraft.

As an military trained pilot I always previously logged as per the military rules (same as per the UK ANO). Now, as a UK licence holder, I have always logged as per CAP393. Thirty years worth.

In my present job, and many others, operating from an airport, logging from engine start would add up to another ten minutes or more to many flights. That's possibly an extra ten to fifteen percent. I was always taught to fly for quality, not quantity.

As long as folks are honest in job interviews about this or to the CAA, (never mind about when shooting a line in the bar), and I'm sure you would be, should the question ever be asked, what the heck.

[Bertie Thruster]

Same 'boat' and sentiments as ShyTorque, (but only 29 years worth).

Can I pencil in another 1200hrs to my tales of 'daring do'? :8

[Whirlygig]

No Bertram, you may not :}

The ANO method is the correct way in the UK although it does leave open the possibility that there is a point when the machine is capable of flying and, because that time is not logged, no-one's in charge? :ooh:

Cheers

Whirls

[Gomer Pylot]

I've been logging helicopter time since 1971, and have never logged anything other than time from hover to skids down, or 'collective up' time. Whether the rotors were turning or the engine(s) were running had nothing to do with it, just time in the air. I'm currently somewhere between 13,000 and 14,000 hours, and could probably have a few thousand more if I counted all the time I spent sitting on the ground (or on a platform) running waiting for pax, or all the two-minute cooldowns I've sat through. But I don't even know the exact total, and don't care. In any case, it's all in the air, none on the ground.

[ShyTorque]

Whirls, no, there is no possibility that no one's in charge. The person who signed the tech log, strapped in to the pilot's seat and pressed the start button is "in charge".

But until the aircraft moves for the purpose of flight, that person may not log flight time. Anyone who does otherwise is "sharp pencilling" their log book.

[helimutt]

It's not sharp pencilling. It's logging time as 'Pilot in command' of an aircraft. You could log 'flight time' separately I suppose.

The big companies who need their pilots to 'fly' 800 hrs a year need that extra 10 minutes knocked off each start up. Can you imagine how many hours it saves say CHC/Bristow/Bond in ABZ per year in pilot hours? Bloody loads I bet. we can start up and easily sit for 10+ minutes before taxiing.

[ShyTorque]

Helimutt,

The CAA, via the ANO, are the judge and jury, as far as I'm concerned. I comply with what the regs say, not an individual or company opinion.

Working from an international airport, I also often wait for taxi clearance but have never logged ground running time before the aircraft's first movement.

The aircraft hours aren't affected by what the pilot logs in his personal flying logbook, in fact if ground taxying is concerned, it's less than the pilot's flight time anyway.

Edit:

P.S. I noticed your profile, which must be out of date because you state that you are presently flying as a co-pilot on the S-76; presumably assisting with the checklists and doing the r/t. How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?

Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?

[helimutt]

P.S. I noticed your profile, which must be out of date because you state that you are presently flying as a co-pilot on the S-76; presumably assisting with the checklists and doing the r/t. How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?

Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?

Shyte Hawk, where do i say my company requires me to log 800hrs per year? Please re-read my post!

I realise recently people aren't getting up to 800hrs a year, but when they were busy, pilots would hit 800/900hrs (whatever the figure, i'd never do that many anyway) and then be unable to fly anymore. So it's beneficial to a comapny to have the pilots log less time.

How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?

I see we're now arguing over the finer points of the English Language now.

Did I say I personally logged PIC time? No, but then you probably didn't mean that. I'll say it again, imagine you've just taken your shiny new police helicopter out of the hangar, started it up, and then say a nicy shiny fire truck or fuel bowser is too close and as he moves off, he clips the helicopter. As far as your concerned, there is no PIC at that time? Who would sort out the accident report and what would they be called in that paperwork? 'Person sat on their backside who happened to be at the controls at the time?'

It makes me laugh when the uninformed think a co-pilot just does RT and helps with checklists. Typical single pilot mentality.;)
I'm lucky enough to fly for a company who is moving away from that terminology, and we have handling Pilot and non handling pilot. PF or PNF. The guys I fly with are total professionals, and let me fly as much as they do. I bet a few of them even let me fly more than themselves when we're rostered to fly together.

Here's another one for you then Shyte, at the end of the day's flying, the co-pilots would climb out of the a/c to go do the paperwork etc, and the Commander would taxi the a/c back around to the hangar. Guess what, the time was still being logged by the co-pilots! Result! Not only that, if one or the other got out whilst re-fueling between sectors, the time would still be logged while you're making coffee/tea.
:ok:
:E

The aircraft hours aren't affected by what the pilot logs in his personal flying logbook, in fact if ground taxying is concerned, it's less than the pilot's flight time anyway

Another thing I never understood. If an engine is running, it is subject to wear and tear. The oil degrades. Components are in use aren't they? The blades are still at flying speed, spinning in air, again, subject to wear and tear. So why does the logged time only count whilst the helicopter is airborne? Because the wear and tear is greater?. Maybe there is a simple explanation. :bored:

[Sid447]

Our company,

(ADA) stipulate rotor start to rotor stop, after each flight.

BHL once tried mandating Davtron time for both pilot hours and Tech Log entry with the meter set to activate/de-activate at around 29-30% torque on the 212's in Nigeria.
After a couple of months it was found the difference to "normal" flight logging was around 32-34% and questions were then asked more for maintenance reasons than log-book reasons (most didn't care about being 30% short of log book hours, except for the less experienced local pilots).
But there was a fair amount of alarm due to the aircraft possibly overflying important maintenance requirements/servicing by the same amount.

SS.

[helimutt]

It does make you wonder about a/c hours, when the tech log total time says 13,000hrs and only flight time is logged. None sat waiting. Non whilst pax embark/disembark. None from engine start until taxi. Say 10 mins a day, a/c sometimes over 15yrs old. Do the math.

I believe F.Robinson was shocked when he heard that some schools deduct 0.1hrs off the totals for start up and shut down on the R22's.

[Heli-Ice]

This a fun debate and interesting to see where it is going.

In the helicopter I have mostly flown, there is a Hobbs meter that starts counting when the MGB pressure rises above a certain figure. Thats the time I use for my private logging of flight time. The helicopters technical time is also based on that meter and it is up to me as the pilot to record accurate technical time in the tech log by subtracting the time on ground while rotors are turning and stuff is beeing loaded/offloaded.

It is up to the pilot to decide if he likes to use the JAR definition to its limits and add a little extra for the time while rotors turn after shut down? Then he would base his extra minutes on the Hobbs meter reading.

By law, I am required to be at the controls during the time when rotors are turning for intention of flight and that has always been logged as flight time here in Iceland, and according to the Icelandic regs, which are based on the JAR's, it should be done so.

I guess it really does not matter in the long run if you log a few minutes more or less for every flight as long as there is no magnificent creative writing included.

All I can say about my logbook is that the hours in it are honestly logged and I can back it all up if someone decides to ask.

In my mind this is pretty simple, at least according to the Icelandic regs.
You log your flight time while rotors are turning for the intention of flight,
you log tech time between skids on.

[ShyTorque]

Helimutt,

I don’t understand your example, quote: “your” (= mine?) shiny police helicopter being involved in an incident. What does police aviation have to do with this discussion?

If you don’t understand about how running time relates to maintenance issues in your particular job, you might find it beneficial to speak to your maintenance organisation. Helicopter fatigue is a complex subject, but the initial "model" included in the manufacturer's design life does allow for some ground running, as it also does for transition/climb, cruise, low speed ops, landing cycles etc. Sometimes the aircraft is used under a very different regime to the "standard" and if so, a modified maintenance program may be implemented.

On the S-76s I flew for ten years or so, (A++, B, C and C+, multi-crew, btw), for two different organisations, one in UK and one overseas, for maintenance purposes, we logged airborne times to the minute from the FMS via the "w.o.w." switch, for each sector, as requested by the maintenance organisations. The type I fly now (multi crew, btw) is the same, in fact the figures are also recorded by the aircraft's data collection system. We interrogate the system after landing to obtain the hours and minutes flown.

For the pilots personal logbooks, on top of the wow figures, we added on taxy time (when the aircraft first moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight) if appropriate. Any subsequent rotors running on the ground between sectors was counted by the pilots because that does fall within the ANO definition of flight time for the purposes of a pilot's personal logbook.

It's certainly an interesting discussion. It appears that in UK we have pilots claiming different flight times under two different systems. When it comes to logging flying hours for licence upgrades, e.g. CPL to ATPL, the ones claiming for time outside of the ANO definition have an obvious advantage in this respect. I intend to request further clarification from the CAA.

My username is ShyTorque, btw.

P.S. From your patronising comments, you obviously assume I have only ever operated single pilot and am therefore completely uninformed about multi-crew ops. You began a thread congratulating Flingingwings on his well-deserved promotion to captain, in quite short order. Please note his comment in post #8.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/325708-corporate-uk-captain-without-thousands-thousand-hours.html

[Bertie Thruster]

Any subsequent rotors running on the ground between sectors was counted by the pilots because that does fall within the ANO definition of flight time for the purposes of a pilot's personal logbook.


Quite rightly, Shy.....but I don't claim it though as I always sit on the ground at ground idle, if I'm not shutting down. :8

[helimutt]

Oh dear. ShyTorque, first off, if you have taken the time to read that particular post, then you have obviously had a quick scan through some of my other posts too, in which case you'll see I tend to use PPRuNe to amuse myself and you'll possibly see I have a very poor sense of humour. I wasn't trying to be patronising. :( Maybe just acting childish again possibly, and for that, I apologise.

Yes, I know fine well who you are, and know what/who you fly for. The 'police' quote was meant as an example. I could have used AA or whatever.

The logging of hours is always going to be a subject of debate until the CAA decide to just make it quite clear, plain and simple.

I saw one of our helicipters fly overhead today so decided to log a nice big fat 0.1 for that! :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Helimutt, I didn't actually notice any sign of a sense of humour... :hmm:

I'll say it again, imagine you've just taken your shiny new police helicopter out of the hangar, started it up, and then say a nicy shiny fire truck or fuel bowser is too close and as he moves off, he clips the helicopter. As far as your concerned, there is no PIC at that time? Who would sort out the accident report and what would they be called in that paperwork? 'Person sat on their backside who happened to be at the controls at the time?'

Regarding PIC before "moving under it's own power"; you obviously didn't bother to read my earlier post at the top of the same page, (#81) in reply to Whirls' comment on the very same issue.

Responsibility and logged flight hours are separate issues in this respect. Not my rules or opinion, but those of the CAA. And of course, of your company chief pilot (and mine, that's me though) and the aircraft insurance company.

Thanks for your input to the discussion; it's been enlightening. If I'm in a position to recruit another co-pilot (recruited two in the last year or so), possibly to help them "do a Flingingwings", I'll be perusing applicant's logbooks very carefully and asking deep and meaningful questions at hours logged by ex-offshore co-pilots, especially ones from Humberside with a share in a light aircraft.

That's just my sense of humour, coming out there, btw. :E

[Whirlygig]

The logging of hours is always going to be a subject of debate until the CAA decide to just make it quite clear, plain and simple.It IS clear.

The Air Navigation Order is the law in the UK and it states (words to the effect); move under its own power for purpose of flight to rotor stop.

LASORS is an "interpretation" of JARS and is not law. In fact, the JARS are not law.

Whilst the ANO definition may not be sensible and there may be flaws in the logic and inconsistencies with other JAA states, it is still the law. And we all know what the law is? :}

Cheers

Whirls


Wishing that maybe she'd just kept her gob shut
W

[helimutt]

Working from an international airport, I also often wait for taxi clearance but have never logged ground running time before the aircraft's first movement.

We do exactly the same.

I didn't actually notice any sign of a sense of humour...


I did say it was poor.

If I'm in a position to recruit another co-pilot (recruited two in the last year or so), possibly to help them "do a Flingingwings", I'll be perusing applicant's logbooks very carefully and asking deep and meaningful questions at hours logged by ex-offshore co-pilots, especially ones from Humberside with a share in a light aircraft.

Well if they have a share in a light aircraft, just think of all the PIC time they'll have logged, and not had to put up with the inane banter of some old know-it-all crusty Captain across the cockpit!
:ok:

You got to love a sense of humour! ;)

Cheers P, at least I had a laugh tonight. :E

[ShyTorque]

And as for 13,000 hour co-pilots..... I'm laughing about that one, too.

And the ones talking about logging the engine's Hobbs meter time on Robbos as flight time. If the school makes you log it, it's to the detriment of your "real" hands on, flying hour - and the student pays. :oh:

Well if they have a share in a light aircraft, just think of all the PIC time they'll have logged, and not had to put up with the inane banter of some old know-it-all crusty Captain across the cockpit!

Another co-pilot with a light aircraft that I brought along a bit in 2008 on a new type has done quite well for himself. He's just sent me his new business card. He's now the Head of Flight Ops, Bristows... :D

[helimutt]

Was he not cut out for a flying career then? Just a joke there by the way.;)

Sounds like he did well for himself. :ok:



As for 13,000hr co-pilots??? Eh??? I stopped logging hours at 10k. Didn't see the point.:uhoh:

[ShyTorque]

Yes, after that many hours, I'm sure that one ground run just blurs into the previous one.

[helimutt]

Slightly off-topic, but do you think I can log the time whilst i've got the button pressed to start the bl**dy thing? (Got to be a few seconds in that every time) Sometimes i'm actually allowed to do that too! Hard to believe, I know.

[ShyTorque]

You may as well, you seem to log everything else...

[helimutt]

You may as well, you seem to log everything else...

Now that shows you really do have a sense of humour. Actually, I log everything in my log book very carefully. I spent too much time and money getting my licence, and didn't wish to lose it due to 'discrepancies'!

Anyway, i'm not cut out for this whole helicopter pilot thing anyway. I'm leaving it to the skygods.

[ShyTorque]

Anyway, i'm not cut out for this whole helicopter pilot thing anyway.

I think the helicopter pilot thing is probably OK, it's just the rules, regs and maths you need to concentrate on.

I'm leaving it to the skygods.

We can't do that, they're all at Aviation House, Gatwick, writing the rules.

[DeltaNg]

In ABZ I often left the cab to go and have a slash downstairs while the chopper was still turning. How do you mark that in the logbook? I suppose I should have just knocked 5 minutes off, or maybe started a stopwatch to time the length of my toilet stop.

[ShyTorque]

DNg, Is this the confessional thread, or what?

At least you edited quickly to delete the initial comment: "couldn't be arsed"! :)

[DeltaNg]

Well, your Honour, if truth be told I didn't really think about it too in depth at the time....and by the time the day had finished I had long forgotten about the 'comfort break' on the Clyde/tartan whatever. In fact, I was usually so knackered I struggled to remember the destination.

I usually impress on people in an interview that most of my North Sea time was just sitting staring vacantly at the sea, punctuated by bacon roll eating or perhaps philosophical discussion. Although it looks like a lot of hours, I have about the same level of skill as a fairly new R22 PPL. That leaves people under no illusions.

[ShyTorque]

I usually impress on people in an interview that most of my North Sea time was just sitting staring vacantly at the sea, punctuated by bacon roll eating

I often stare vacantly and like bacon rolls.

Yipppe, I'm qualified then - when can I start?

[Saint Jack]

I’ve been following this thread for some time and it is quite clear that there’s a lot of confusion out there. It’s now quite clear that this confusion arises from the incorrect interpretation and use of terminology.

First of all, the original question, i.e. “When do you start logging time?” was vague and ambiguous. Most of the responders thought it referred ‘flight time’ and replied accordingly.

Quite simply, the definition of ‘flight time’ varies from one airworthiness authority to another and you must abide by the prevailing definition. The two principal definitions are from ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’ and ‘from when the aircraft first moves under its own power until it comes to rest after landing’. In regards the latter, I thought Posts #72, #73 and #74 were amusing (actually I wanted to say puerile but that may upset some people).

I’ve always preferred the former definition of ‘flight time’, i.e. ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’, as this is the period when the pilot is exercising the privileges of his/her licence and is therefore entitled to enter it in his/her personal flying log book as a record, or proof, of experience.

Later in the thread, the penny had dropped and then the confusion really set in as some though that the original poster was referring to ‘time in service’ which is the time the aircraft is in flight, i.e. airborne, only. This confusion is best illustrated in Post #87:

“It does make you wonder about a/c hours, when the tech log total time says 13,000hrs and only flight time is logged. None sat waiting. Non whilst pax embark/disembark. None from engine start until taxi. Say 10 mins a day, a/c sometimes over 15yrs old. Do the math.”

Here the writer is using the term ‘flight time’ while discussing ‘time in service’. ‘Time in service’ does NOT include engine start, it does NOT include taxiing, it does NOT include waiting for ATC clearances, it does NOT include waiting on a helideck during crew change, etc. etc.

‘Time in service’ is entered into the aircraft Flight Log, or Tech Log, or Journey Log or whatever it’s called in you part of the world and is used by the engineers to plan scheduled maintenance of the aircraft, its systems and components etc.

There are probably many reasons for this on-going confusion with terminology but I believe we old-timers may be largely responsible as we tend to use the term ‘flight time’ in a generic sense. We really must start to learn to use ‘flight time’ and ‘time in service’ properly. Perhaps another reason is that many of the old-timers are now working for the airworthiness authorities and are unwittingly passing on this bad-habit to the younger generation.

Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘flight time’ at the next reprinting.

So remember, ‘flight time’ is used by pilots in his/her personal flying log book to record their time at the controls of an aircraft while ‘time in service’ is recorded in the Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log and used by the engineers to determine the time the aircraft was airborne. They are NOT the same, they are NOT supposed to be the same and for any given flight they SHOULD differ, sometimes quite considerably.

[JimL]

As Saint Jack has pointed out, there are a number of definitions of 'flight time'; in an attempt at clarifying the 'Annex 6 - Operations' definition, notes were added at the last major revision.

These notes were to make clear that for Annex 6 - Operations (not airworthiness = Annex 8 or licencing = Annex 1) the use of flight time was concerned with the fatigue aspects of 'flight and duty time limitations'.

The definition from ICAO Annex 6 is:Flight time — helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

Note 1.— The State may provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors; and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case, the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight is included within the calculation of flight time.

Note 2.— This definition is intended only for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.
As has been pointed out by others; the recording of flight for the purpose of continuing airworthiness is lift-off to touch-down (the subsequent maintenance schedules make allowances for ground running time); the recording of flight for the purpose of licence qualification is usually tied to stick time (handling). All of this is usually made clear in the regulations, instructions and associated explanatory text - but it does have to be found.

A single definition of 'flight time' will always be too coarse to meet the needs of all parties.

The issue of the flight crew responsibility is usually dealt with outside the definition of flight time and is addressed in its own section; in Annex 6 this is:2.5 Duties of pilot-in-command

2.5.1 The pilot-in-command shall be responsible for the operation and safety of the helicopter and for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, from the moment the engine(s) are started until the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, with the engine(s) shut down and the rotor blades stopped.

Jim

[Heliringer]

The regs in Australia say "Rotors engaged for the purpose of flight" So that is what I log. I don't log engineering ground runs or any other stuff where I won't fly. I also don't wait until the rotors stop.
I basically log engine on to engine off, the same way I bill my clients.

[Saint Jack]

Oops, sorry guys and gals, reference my post #107 above, the penultimate paragraph should read:

Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘time in service’ at the next reprinting.

Now you understand what I said about us old timers, I really must edit more closely.

[Flyting]

Heard a few years back about an airforce pilot in an out of the way african country who had logged some 20000 hrs (yes, twenty thousand) over a 10 year period...

No one had informed him that it was actually supposed to be time spent at the controlls of an aircraft. Instead, he had logged all the time on the job...sitting behind a desk at the office, with very little flying at all.

Do the maths:
8hrs/day
5 days/week
48 weeks/year
10 years

I can just see this one in an interview at one of the big operators...

[the delaminator]

I didn't read the whole thread but this question came up today. I thought it was the classic definition of "movement under own power for the purpose of flight"

I was wrong.
In Canada at least its

Background

CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".
For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.
Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped." In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter "flight time" for helicopters on skids.
Action

In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter "flight time" will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.

[extreme 500]

"the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight"

Engine on (aircraft IS moving under its own power), Rotors turning (for the purpose of flight), until the moment it comes to rest, (Engine off, Rotors stopped).

As a PPL I dont climb into the helicopter for any other purpose than for flight, Im sure maintenance logs reflect further hours for the aircraft, although as I dont partake in ground runs or sitting on the ground burning money I dont log that time anyway.

However, I as the pilot in the cab starting and shutting down the aircraft is part of the flying experience (I cant get airborne without the engine or rotors turning) therefore it is for the purpose of taking off.

Must admit I dont check my watch until I actually lift and that is the time I put in my log book, I will however look at using the Datcon as its bloody expensive waiting 2 mins run up and 2 mins run down I could be logging toward my CPL...

IMHO, if that aircraft is running, its in a dangerous state and that requires a pilot with hands on if he/she is hands on then he/she should log the time.

Great thread which seems to have got everyone thinking.

[Gordy]

extreme

I will however look at using the Datcon as its bloody expensive waiting 2 mins run up and 2 mins run down I could be logging toward my CPL...

Regardless of cost, one has to abide by the law of the land, should you ever fly in the U.S. you need to abide by the rules clarified in my post on page 4 of this thread.

[extreme 500]

Absolutely agree with the law of the land and the example in your post written by Rebecca (FAA) clearly defines this.

However for a thread to manifest itself into this proportion presumes that this side of the pond is a grey area in its interpretation albeit with conflicting local practices.

Flying in the US for "Cheap" turbine time (last I heard) is also discouraged by the CAA (Google:- Rip off Britain), and have heard stories of pilots having a disclusion on PIC hours, so will happily write off my couple of minutes either side. :ok: Cheers.

JimL's post clarifies the rotors turning issue though and time where Pilots duties are being conducted should be logged in my opinion...

[SuperF]

If you come to NZ, you get to log skids up to skids down. no more no less. easy, don't have to worry about if the blades are turning, what you are doing on the ground or anything. Our pilot logbooks are a FLIGHT record, and you are not a pilot in command of a flying aircraft if you are on the ground.

Some smart arse will ask about toe in landings...:ok: good on ya. i always figured if you have to keep your hands, mainly on the controls then you are flying. two skids down and you could walk away, don't log it. balancing on those swing bridges in canada hopefully you are still flying the thing.:}