If you want to work in China..!!

[On Final]

If you want to work in China:

I have read many posts here on PPRUNE and other sites and found some very valuable information from time to time.

I am working for a company that needs Air Bus Captains. I was trying to help other pilots but my previous post must have been Deleted by PPRUNE Mod's. I did a search and couldn't find it. I know it is a struggle to get through the jungle, especially trying to work in China. I have made other posts here about written tests in China and feel it was a mistake that my first post was deleted.

I am just trying to help some of our displaced or furloughed pilots out there..! The company I am working for pays very good and the treats you like a rock star..! The training is not intimidating and I have really enjoyed the process.

I turned down another interview in SE Asia because of the way that company had treated other pilots. So I went a different coarse.

I am currently working as a Captain in China on the A-320 and found a good one. Just like I had made other posts trying to help this post is nothing more that that. It is not an advertisement...!!

Good Luck ...!!

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[knee how]

Here's your post about the CAAC Written tests. I have it as one of my bookmarks. There's good information there. :)

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/262104-chinese-written-test-2.html

[On Final]

Thanks for your quick reply, I try to give accurate information which gives credit to the many posts I have read that have been helpful here. I have spoken to quite a few pilots that got tangled up in China spending 6 months to a year waiting trying to jump through hoop after hoop. Then at the end game, never get the job they tried to get because of problems with the Recruiting Agency or the airline just turned out to be a bad deal.

If you really want to work in China you need to be very careful with many things that normal jobs don't involve. Here is my story.

I started out wanting to fly the A-330, after my type rating only found 1 airline that would interview me as a test case having thousands of hours PIC A-320 series. I turned down the interview because I read many posts about how this company (I won't mention the name here) because I didn't want to get chewed up in the process. I don't think the airline is really bashing pilots anymore because it has hurt their recruitment process.

I looked at Vietnam Airlines but there was no upgrade to the A-330 available.
It looked like a good deal with the 4 weeks on 4 weeks off but I am tired of the light twin, A-320...!!

I ended up taking a job with a Chinese Airline that is not in the mainstream but offered an upgrade to the A-330. It was the Diamond in the rough, and the way I am treated here is much better than the way I was back when I worked for TWA. I am very happy so far and it was worth the time and energy..!

I started this process in June this year and just finished up so you can see this process is rather long. The Olympics blocked some of us for an additional 2 month wait so Oh Well.

First the interview, which is more like a 10 day evaluation. You take the famous Chinese Medical CAAC Beijing (Pass), Local Medical form work visa The Famous Chinese Written exam (Pass), Police Letter (Pass) Oh, I forgot the interview.

You go in with your agent, company representatives, interpreters there was a total of 10 to 12 people in this large board room. it is really informal just some chit chat about "Why you want to work in China" which I named my post header from. After 30 to 45 minutes you finish up and your on your way.

After you finish all of this it was a busy 10 days. You go back home and wait for your license verification. Word to the wise, if you are thinking about China you need to get your circle to land restriction removed from your certificate if you have one. As soon as your license verification comes in you pack your stuff and head to china. Make sure you bring all of your required original documents with you it you same you time and hassle later.

You get to do a CAAC aircraft Sim check, finish your ground school, get your Chinese Pilot License, line training and check, and then you are finished.

This post is already too long and if anyone is interested I can add more details later. I wish you guys the best of luck and happy flying..!!

[HarmonRabb]

Any chance of a non-rated F/O applying ? :ooh: (No A320 type rating) just pistons :(

Have over 2,200+ hours, ICAO CPL/ME/IR

thanks

[Anonymus6]

harmonrabb NOT A CHANCE AS AN FO IN CHINA!!!!! SAD BUT TRUE

[VRSCSE2]

Maybe ONFINAL can post what airline he is working with, who is his broker, details of the great contract, how many Airbus captains they need and other fun facts.

Thanks

VRSC

[captain_mark747]

so even with the pilot shortage going on, airlines are still relectant to take in pilots that are not type rated and only have time on piston aircraft let's say around 2000hrs? correct me if i'm wrong... just curious about this matter.

will there come a time where airlines would be so desperate that they would even take in cpl trainees? or even worse people who have no flying experience yet and sponsor the rest of their training all the way up to filling in the flight deck vacancies?

[2Wright]

Yeah ONFINAL, give up some details of the Company you work for...I wanna get paid well and be a "rock star" :cool:

[On Final]

I have been answering a few PM's and will continue to do that. Any of you need help getting your job in China I will do what I can to give you helpful information. I will continue to remain behind the the WEB mask and therefore am not going to name my Airline or agent on a public forum. If you want to talk feel free to PM me.

If is difficult for FO's but not impossible. I have heard of some High time FO's getting jobs and upgrading in China but very rare.

Good Luck..!!

[beluga0703]

Have been offered interview with Shenzhen airlines, Deer Air and East Star Airlines. Wonder which of these is the best airlines to work for. Its for A320 captain through agency.

[On Final]

I know the players but don't have much data on East Airlines. It also depends on your lifestyle and schedule. Do you need to commute or not? Can you get a 4 week on 4 week off schedule? I think your agent is good if it is who I am thinking about. Good Luck..!

[gibas]

Hi guys!

For China experts:
I've seen most companies seeking for A320 PIC's require only 300-500 PIC hrs.
I'm an A320 type rated guy with 5.500 hrs on type and 8.000TT, JAA ATP.
Stable job in Europe for the time being. Stuck as F/O because of Seniority.
Those of you who are experienced on the China/Asia market, you think there's a chance for an DEC, upgrade there or a PIC(US) Transition in China?

Thanks a lot.:ok:

[On Final]

There is still a steady supply of pilots heading to China from the USA, EU, India and the Sand box. It has slowed down down from what I hear.

It is a problem for a high time FO to upgrade in China you just have to check the different agents to see if they can make you a deal. It is not impossible but difficult.

there is one company called Eagle Jet International Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/) out of Miami, Florida that offers an FO time in type package of 300 to 500 hours from the initial type rating. They don't advertise it but may have a deal that can be worked out for a A-320 high time FO to get the Capt. PIC time. Just call them an ask.

Good luck I hope this helps...!!

[arka]

Hi!I just read about your expirience working in China.I sent my application for Air China.Be so kind and give me more info about selection process and simulator and medical.How is going after if you been selected.Is it so dificult to pass Air low exam?Regards from Arka

[On Final]

Hello Arks,

How long ago did you apply with Air China? What equipment? Let me know what stage you are in and I will try to let you know what to expect next.....

I made a good post here on The Chinese Written test which will give you some highlights about the CAAC exam. I also have around 8000 sample questions on the CAAC written test and other pointers which may be helpful.

It takes time to get a flying job in China, just plan on it. What I mean by time is 2 to 6 months depending on your license and if you have a circle to land restriction which you will need to remove. The CAAC will not verify a Temp. US certificate, only the plastic hard copy. One major hurdle is you go to China and interview, take the written test, pass the medical and you have 2 weeks in this process by now. If you have a "Circle to Land Restriction" common in the USA, you will have to go have it removed from your license. You will have to go to the sim and take a checkride on the circle, costs about $1,000.00 usd. It takes 90 to 150 days to get you hard copy back from the FAA and then the CAAC will have to verify your license before you go to CHINA. This may take another 30 days. You are now 4 to 5 months in this process. This is for US certificates only.

If you know you are going to work in China and have a US certificate with a Circle to land restriction you should GET YOUR CIRCLE RESTRICTION REMOVED First..!!!!! Saves you a month or 2 waiting.

You can PM me too if you like...OK.

Good Luck..!

[International Trader]

On Final.

With all respect,sounds to me like you JUST STARTED working in China.
June to October is not a long time at all and it appears that you have just gotten "on the line".
You should wait a while before you sing the praises of an employer that you just really don't know. Having signed with an agent your risks just multiplied.

I truely hope that you have found "Nirvana" and that you get your upgrade but, years of experience in the East ( which hasn't given me much insight)and the mountains of claims sighting bad treatment ,broken promises and contracts would suggest otherwise.
For the moment you are doing what they require and they are paying you.All are happy.
What if they keep putting off your upgrade for 3 or 4 years and they decide that you should work a tighter schedule, reduce your time off (make it harder to get home maybe) ,pay less because of the way they interpret your salary structure? Would you still feel like a " Rock Star"?
They would be happy providing that you keep doing what you are told to do!Doesn't matter that the contract says something completely different or what your agent says that they will do!
You see them through a "rose coloured glass view" of an A 330.
They see you as something to be exploited to the limit if not beyond for the simple reason that they are paying you,even if they are underpaying you! This is their culture, they don't make friends.
Many foreigners get into these companies, see that there are difficulties getting and keeping expatriate pilots and decide to become some sort of an "employment ambassador" for them. Maybe it is to genuinely help people or maybe it is for personal gain but ,in all the instances that I have encountered, the company eventually turns on the individual and the story then is completely different.

The spider wraps its prey in a warm cocoon of silk ,to keep it safe until it is ready to use it for the intended purpose.
Good luck

[Rotorhead1026]

years of experience in the East ( which hasn't given me much insight)and the mountains of claims sighting bad treatment ,broken promises and contracts would suggest otherwise.

All true, Trader, but the above sounds just like my career in the west, too! :{

If the guy's happy, he's happy. If he starts getting shafted, I hope he posts that here as well. At least he's already in the left seat. True, though, time wounds all heels - and non-heels. We'll see. :) In the meantime, it's good information.

[VRSCSE2]

Hello.. with a couple of years experience in China.....

Both I-Trader and Roto-head have good points about the extremely happy on final guy.
I traded a few e-mails with On final and he seemed like a nice person with
current information. I think he found a deal that he is happy with and is glad to share the information. Any info about the Chinese tests are good.
He did admit he used to be a union rep for somebody (union reps know what is best for the rest of us) but I think he can be helpful to others out there looking for information.
My big caution to anyone coming to China is be careful of who you pick as a broker/agent. They are all just a bunch of slave traders and some people are reps for the traders.

VRSC

[On Final]

Hello,

I just wanted to say thanks to those that treated my information with respect, I appreciate that. I am not saying anyone has treated my information otherwise but feel everyone has been fair.

I am not trying to Rep. to any particular agency and have nothing to gain from it. I guess after many years working with pilots it is still in my blood to try to help a fellow guy out.

I also try to be careful with too much information that may get blown up in a public forum. I tried to put what I feel is valuable content information in my open posts and more details to the 37 members pm 's that I have responded to. I think I have had to much time on my hands during this process and put my energy here instead of going crazy sitting around...ha.

There are many good agencies out there and even the agencies get screwed by an airline not following their end of the bargain which in the end, screws the pilot. I agree with the post made here that agencies are head hunters and it is part of the game. We should always keep that in mind whatever agency you are going through and take care of Number #1 you the pilot.

I am not trying to come across as Mr. China either, I am actually new to China but wanted to share part of my path and experience along the way so take what you want from it. Like I have mentioned in my posts I am pleased and feel very fortunate at the present time and I will post future updates as we move forward.

If anyone gets stuck in the China process feel free to send me a PM and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Good Luck..!!!!!

[On Final]

I made another post with a new title "Required paperwork to Bring to China..!!"

I will show the link here... http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/350239-required-paperwork-work-china.html#post4517933

Here is an older posts to help you with the Chinese Written Test

I will show the link here.. http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/262104-chinese-written-test-2.html#post4517941

It will help you know what documents to bring to China so you are not stuck 7000 miles from home trying to get a notarized original document. The documents may vary depending on your agency but many should be the same.

Good Luck..!!

[ben767]

Thank you fro your notes.
would you e-mail me the rest of information and any other notes that you think is helpfull. this is my first time aplying over seas.
Please e-mail it to
[email protected]
Thank and best regard.
BR

[purple head]

Anonymus6, i'm a foreign FO in China, and i wasn't rated. maybe i was right place at the right time, but i guess i'm living proof its possible.
Oh, and i had a grand total time of 250 hours when i got the job, and sorry but no i won't tell you who i work for.

[On Final]

If you are brand new and wanting to work in China you must find pilot recruitment agency to represent you. You should list yourself with 2 or 3 agencies and see what they have to offer.

The process will take some time and energy but will pay off in the end.

Remember your agency will be able to keep you updated on which airlines in China are hiring and what their requirements are.

Good Luck..!!

[Cretan Airbus]

Working in China can be very rewarding, but the path leading there can be quite treacherous. My first suggestion would be to go with an established agency that is both well founded and has a presence in China.

It seems as though the Chinese are not quite as anxious for expat pilots as they once were, but if you analyze China's aviation growth curve you will see huge potential in the next decade and beyond.

[rcl7700]

My feelings exactly. In early 2008 I was even a little suspicious about the interest for me in China. Now I long for it. Hope it goes back to the way it was in early 2008.

rcl

[swift79rm]

Hi!
can you give me more details about this Airlines? I am not Airbus type rated though... [email protected]

[Level Buster]

I am looking to try contract work on B737 in China, Shanghai and would be grateful for any info on living and working over there for a few years.

[hoover1]

which crewing companies would you guys recomend for a guy with a 737 type and 300 hrs sic in it. would like a position as captain. i also have 5500 tt with over 3000 turbine and over 2000 turbine pic. so i am not new to the captain postion

[The Dominican]

which crewing companies would you guys recomend for a guy with a 737 type and 300 hrs sic in it. would like a position as captain. i also have 5500 tt with over 3000 turbine and over 2000 turbine pic. so i am not new to the captain postion


With today's market? I think that it is very unlikely that you will find a 73 captain slot in the international arena with no command time on the airframe, here at the ANA contracts we are getting guys with 8k hours plus and a lot of PIC time applying for F/O positions, the captain slots are being taken by the 10k hours plus with 1k plus time in the airframes. Not too sure that you will manage a captain slot but I wish you luck

[kazaf911]

Where can I find pilot recruitment agency, if I wanna find a job in china?

[Cretan Airbus]

If you come to China, I would strongly recommend that you use an established agency with a management presence in China. My suggestion would be either VOR Holdings or WASINC. I know VOR Holdings is filling B737 positions with Shanghai Airlines, and WASINC has many Chinese contracts as well. I would say both are considered the "gold standard" of crew leasing companies in China, if there is such a thing.

Register your details with one of those agencies, and start compiling your paperwork. You will have a very challenging adventure ahead of you, but the rewards are great if you make it through the process.

Best of luck -

Cretan

[On Final]

I remember when I started this post trying to express that it may be difficult to get a job in China without becoming a casualty of the process. I found a great post and replies with an update to Hainan Air recruitment I wanted to show you all. Here is the link:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/352059-hainan-airlines-hna-hu-recruitment-update.html

I thought the details were very detailed and accurate to what the process is like. I also feel it would be good if people have a bad experience from an interview process to let us know here.

China is still hiring and the economy seems to be fairly good. Even though there are some factory shutting down here and there overall things are good.

The rub with getting a good job in China seems to be mainly in these areas.

1. Agency
2. Airline treating you fair and following agreements
3. Reimbursements
4. Poor contract terms
5. Misunderstandings leave the pilot holding the bag
6. Black balling pilots if they try to leave
7. Who is paying the tax
8. Chinese medical
9. Chinese written Exam

Just be careful and check out the agency and airline before you dive headfirst into it. You could waist months trying to land the job to end up with nothing in the end game.

Good Luck..!!

[Rubis]

The airlines pay the recruiters, pilots don't. So should be no doubt as to whose allegence the recruiter respects. Same as a whore...expat 101

Choose your representation carefully, and don't buy the statement "pay for your travel and we will reimburse you on arrival". The oldest, scumbag ridden corn cob in the industry.

You have a great deal of pride and respect in your presentation and abilities, however, you are just another whore to most recruiters that are looking for an easy quid, buck, dinar, riyal, peso, or free taco.

Expat 101

[ruddernstick]

Sounds great can you please provide a contact email add for application.

Cheers

[robiemartin]

Anyone have experience to share about working with this recruiter?

[On Final]

I have seen the company, China Aviation Recruitment for 3 months or so on the net. I believe they are fairly new. I don't have any experience with them.

The company website is quite informative but I dont know if the 45 days to work in China is realistic. Looks like they will do a sim check with you and then contract your employment which is the first that I know of doing that.

Normally you travel to China for an informal interview and start the long process of wirrten test, Medical, Sim, paperwork etc.

Maybe someone else has some direct dealings with them.....................??

On Final

[in FACT is]

On Final, good work you are doing good job share your info to others like's pilot do, I'm not working in China but I like you post:ok:

[BizPilotBrazil]

Anybody knows about the opportunities for NON AIRBUS/BOEING TYPE RATED in China?
I hear about Grand China but i accessed the WASINC website in read that need ERJ145/190 Type Rating.
I currently Cessna Citation type rated as a PIC and working as a Second Captain.
If necessary, PM me.
Thank for all and Happy New Year guys!

[Jimmy Do Little]

I really love it when new folks show up in this part of the world. It reminds me of the way I was back when I first fell off the boat in Asia.

For the first year, everything was "yes, yes....love you long time, blah, blah, blah" girls, employers, landlords....EVERYONE!

After a little time goes by....I think you get the picture.

Good luck, and give us an update after a year or two.

[On Final]

I have been receiving some PM's from low time non rated or low time 0 time in type pilots and dont have any leads for them. If anyone has any information for low time drivers it may be helpful to make a few posts here.

Thanks On Final

[naviscott]

Are they hiring pilots past age 60?

[purple head]

not over 60. The max age i have heard of is 58.

[mstng66]

Hi every body,
Does any body been on 2 screenings on the same month with 2 different airlines? I have a confirmed screening date on feb 2nd with Shenzhen and another unconfirmed for late feb with another airline, both with different agents, do you know if they ask you to sign anything once you pass their screening? or will this hurt your chances of getting another screening date if you pass and decline a screening? Any ideas on this On:)Line?

[On Final]

It depends on your agent and what you have worked out. I would let them know in advance that you are still shopping.

If you are brought down by and agent and go through the medical, written test and 10 days of their time that would not be good. I think the interview part with one airline and then the other is OK. But to go through an entire screening process is pushing it.

Just be careful in China because it is a small network. I hope this helps.

On Final

[purple head]

You can always refuse to sign, just say you need some time to think about what you've seen. I don't think they will refuse this to you.
But like on finals said, if you do the medical etc and pass then move to another airline, that’s just going to P&%s people off， agents and airlines. Also even though you did not sign a contract they will have a record you did the medical for the other airline, so even though no contract was signed the CAAC might see it as moving between airlines, which is not so easy in China- sometimes the CAAC moves in a different way to how you might expect. You need a release letter from your current airline to fly for another airline in China.

[mstng66]

Thanks for your fast reply guys, I think I will try and move my screening with Shenzhen for march (I hope they don't see this thread) and not risk being stuck with a contract that I'm not really comfortably with.
Thanks again and have good flights.

[countbat]

I would like to have something cleared please.
Let's say you have few type ratings: CE-750, B727, B737, B747 and you go to China for a B737 job but on CE-750 type there is the VMC and SIC limitation. Do you still need to have that removed even if you go for a different type job?

[purple head]

I’ve never heard of this situation before. In a logical way of thinking I’d guess it should not matter, but if you actual licence (UK Spelling) has a note of any limitation get it removed. You will just be asking for trouble and delays from the CAAC if you do not.

[On Final]

If you have a restriction on one type rating and not the one you are going to qualify for in China, it doesn't matter. The restriction only pertains to that type rating for your job. Example, if you go to work in China as a A-320 Captain and have a B-747 with a VMC circle to land and an A-320 with no restriction you are OK. It only matters for the A-320 , the airplane you are going to fly in China.

You need to have any restrictions removed ASAP before you go to China or it will be a hard ship, cost you time and money. The CAAC has to have a final license to accept your application , NO Temporary.

I hope this helps,

On Final

[countbat]

Thank you On Final. Clear now.

[On Final]

Hello Fellow Pilots,

For those of you looking for jobs in China, the market is still going on. There is still a demand for Captains to work in CHINA ON A-320, B-737 as long as you have the minimum of 500 hours pic current within 12 months. 1000 hours pic is better.

Sichuan Airlines, Deer Air, Shenzhen Airlines are still hiring from what I hear.

Pay varies from $10,500 USD to $12,500USD plus $500 a month for housing.

Flying is difficult, lots of hard work but the money is good.

Good Luck,

On Final:ok:

[On Final]

Hello Fellow Pilots,

I have been working in China for over 1 year now and really like it. Flying will drive you crazy but things could be worse...hehe. Here is what I see in China. I see very high demands for experienced Captains, you got the PIC Time, China has the job..!!!

Sure, far from home, but with the growth, future, demand for pilots, the money is here at least for the next 8 to 10 years.

A little work to land the job here, remove your circle to land (many USA pilots), take a very difficult Chinese Written Exam, fly over for the so called iNTERVIEW, more like a week long schedule of medical and testing. Once you get through the testing and other hassles you have a job..!

Most Captains are making around 10 to 13K per month and you can put it in the bank. So I recommend you give China a thought before taking jobs in other countries. I have heard some countries and airlines are having troubles and pilots are getting abused....! Be careful with agents, I still here horror stories but most seem to be doing OK.

Remember going to work in China from the start to flying the line takes from 3 to 6 months so shop early....prepar, prepar, prepar.

I wish you guys the best in your job search.

Take care,

On Final

[JotaJota]

:ok: What he said!!!

[Cruiseclimb]

On Final,

Thanks for taking the time to share the good information with us.

[clrblu22]

Go look at some of the Shenzhen Airlines posts first:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/308248-shenzhen-airlines-3.html#post4930079

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/308248-shenzhen-airlines-5.html#post5301777

Once you are on at a Chinese Airline it will cost big bucks to change to another carrier, More than 58K; Unless that new carrier decides to pay off your former airline (good luck with that). Can you say corruption....I knew you could.

[Junker-13]

Can someone confirm if the Chinese Government consider the E-170 and E-190 the same type. If I have only 170 time, can I apply for the 190 job in China?
Thank you,

[eddie shoestring]

OnFinal,

Thanks very much for all your posts and efforts to help us all out.

Just wondering if you or anyone else out there has any experience/issues with getting paid on time and regularly.
I have been told that it is not uncommon for Chinese carriers to be late with their montly contract fees. As a result (some) agencies could be accused of mis-managing their pilot group.
If this is indeed happening, I am interested in what is typically done about it and how long is the delay in getting your fees backpaid?

Thanks all, happy flying

[snk596]

Thats the attitude that China has. This is because most of the Chinese pilots have been trained from zero hours unlike in America. So, the carrier owns you. If they don't pay you for a month or so its normal attitude with many airlines. You will come across one or two post where the expat pilot has been hired by one on time paying carrier and he/she has only good things to say. I am trying to get all info myself and a couple of friends got hired by Air China. The place they stayed in China was a 2 star hotel, more like an apartment. They say it was a complete dump. No English!
Read some of the Shenzen post and BE CAREFUL WHICH AGENCY YOU CHOOSE. Everybody I know is strongly telling me to choose only Parc,Rishworth and Sigmar. Don't even bother to look at others.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Anyone have an update on Deer Air? I just received an e-mail from Rishworth and the contract sounds interesting.

[fcom123]

Is there anyone on here who actually works for Deer Air? I am a Captain presently working in the UK out of london, about 7000 tt and 2000 command hours on the Airbus. I'm considering the new contract offered to work for Deer Air but would like to know what the flying is actually like and what working for them is actually like before I take it any further as I don't want to waste anyones time.

So monthly hours? Airfields? Is is all circling approaches at night around mountains to tiny strips? Safe operation of airline?

Many Thanks to anyone who has the answers.

[captnitin]

Whats are the Oppurtunity available in China for Low Time pilot (CPL with 250 hours). There is a demand for captains all over world but excess of low time pilots. As I feel the bridge from 250 hours to 2000 hours can equalize this demand and supply ratio.

[On Final]

Hello,

In China it is difficult to find a job unless you are an experienced Captain. The reason is pilots are recruited from College by the airlines and the airlines pay and send them to flight school. The pilots complete their flight triaing with around 300 hours and a Commercial, Multi and Instrument rating. They then start flight training with the airline and mainly ride as a jumpseat cockpit observer and fly on occation with an instructor. They slowly build their flight time but is is a very slow process, resulting in the airlines running short Captains. That is the story for China.

They get thier pilots for very cheap, pay them very little and keep them for life. They are not allowed to quit. Remember China Eastern? The Chinese air carriers own their pilots and have there way with them, their quality of life is low.

To answer your question more directly there have been some instances of pilots getting jobs with low times. They need to be very young, a college grad and start as a so called cadet. Not in China but Korean Air and other air carriers offer this type of employment.

Check with airlines direcly and agencies to see those opportunites.

But once again for China I just don't think so.

Good Luck,

On Final

[joethechinesepilot]

here's one for you... was told by one recruiter that if I wanted to screen with them, I'd have to retake the chinese ATP since I took it,passed it and have an offer from another one...thanks but no thanks, I don't ever want to compute EPR performance #s again..not in this lifetime

[On Final]

Hello,

I can't see why they would want you to retake the CAAC written exam if you already passed it. Are you sure no mis communication?

Take care,

On Final

[bman0429]

HI there,

If I am working as a Captain on a B-reg Bizjet and have a CAAC ATPL and I want to work for a Chinese airline will it be of any benefit?

Can one transfer their license?

I have Cruise Command time on an airline airframe and a Command type rating with no restrictions.

Thanks

[gottofly]

I currently fly B737 NG with over 2000 hrs command time and total 7300hrs.which airline is currently hiring,has better pay and treats pilots well?what kind of salary can I expect and is that good enough to bring my wife and baby along?
thanks in advance

[st7860]

westjet
WestJet - Great Jobs - How to Apply (http://www.cytiva.com/wstjet/ext/Detail.asp?wstjetP2009-05)

[purple head]

You can transfere your CAAC licence, but if your not type rated with time on type it might be difficult to get a job. It can also be difficult to transfere your licence because you need to Chinese labour buro to confirm that you no longer fly for your old company and that your contract is cancelled (the so called realease letter from your current company). Its not the Chinese CAAC who do this like most people seem to think.

For 737NG jobs there are a few companies. Shanghai Airlines, Hainan (beijing based) and Okay airways. I'd recommend them in that order but i'd strongly recommend staying away from Okay. Also i've heared Xiamen might start recruiting in the future.

Also there are a few foreign FO's flying in China, if you can get introduced by someone its possible. If you dont have some relationship its practically impossible.

[fullforward]

Is there a B777 DEC recruiment in sight?
Know only about China Cargo few months ago.

[On Final]

Fellow Pilots,

I would reccomend using caution before signing any AGENCY AGREEMENT in China which include work restrictions. In other words, contract language than would prohibit you working for any other airline in China. Some companies are requiring a 1 YEAR waiting period if you quit them. China Aviation Recruitment/VOR holdings is the one that restricts its pilots if you quit.

There are many other agencies out their that are much better that don't restrict your lively hood.

Good Luck,

On Final

[cptbb]

For 737NG jobs there are many airlines recruiting foreign pilots, in China.

Pick one.

Good luck.

[purple head]

From speaking to pilots i know at that company. Shanghai pilots seemed to have the least complaints. You don't have to work at a company to know if its good or bad and i've been working in China for almost 5 years now.....aviation is a small world, doesn't take much to ask around.
Also the post your are talking about is almost 1/2 a year old now.

[ReverseFlight]

Whats are the Oppurtunity available in China for Low Time pilot (CPL with 250 hours).

I hate spreading rumours but one going around is that China intends to increase its minimum hours for foreign CPL conversion from 250 hrs up to 500 hrs as from begining of next year. Is there any truth in this ?

[purple head]

i'm a first officer just getting ready for my up grade training at a new company I'm at my second company in China. Yeah like i'm sure i'd have lots of friends left if i posted names and e-mails etc....your obviously not happy in China... so leave, its simple. Of course, yes share your thoughts here so other people know what its like but don't come on and attack me. You obviously have a drum to beat so beat it if it makes you happy, i agree with most of what you say- unlike what you think i have never said China is great. Yes i know many pilots who are not happy in China, and i have never said Shanghai was a great company to work for - i answered a question regarding 737 companies. I just said it seems to be better than the others that offer jobs on 737's. You don't have to be very good to be better that terrible and i know from personal experience that one of the companies i named was and is a joke to work at. Out of about 30 ex-pat pilots who worked there in the past 3 or so years only about 5 are left that figure talks for itself.
Anyway CPTBB once again you might want to look again at what i wrote and not what you want to read. show me where i painted a rosy picture??? because working in China is certainly not rosy. For me at this stage of my life its a good place to be.I simply said that (from personal experience and asking around) that SAL seemed better than the other two. You filled in the blanks and assumed that i was saying China and SAL were a great place to work..... Will i still be here when i've been a captain for 5 years?.........to that question you can fill the blanks in and hopefully this time you will get the right answer. So take a chill pill, you think its bad as a captain, now imagine the S%$t i have put up with as a FO here......

[purple head]

ReverseFlight, not sure if its true, but the more important question is will it make any difference? These days how many low hour foreigners are getting jobs in China? I would guess the number is some place between 0 and less than 1.

[2dabone]

First, cheers to all as I'm new to this forum!

Many of you seem to know the ins and outs of expat pilot jobs in asia. I'm an Air Force pilot (T-38/F-16) nearing retirement with 3100 total time all jet SE/ME but centerline, 2900 are PIC. I have no heavy experience. I am very interested in living and flying in asia...yeah, I just like it there. What is the best way for me to turn my experience, which I know ain't much for the airlines, into an FO job?

Any advice is appreciated so long as it's constructive (i.e. as much as you might want to say "run away" or "don't come to asia", please don't and instead give me advice on how to get a job so I can decide I hate it later!!!)

Ciao!

[typhoonpilot]

You're gonna need to get an entry level F.O. job in a jet which isn't easy at all. Most places require 500 hours on type in order to be considered ( even F.O. jobs ). You're best bet would be Cathay Pacific as a Second Officer, but I don't think they are hiring. Alternatively, and as much as I hate to say it, the only other way forward without spending a lot of time trying other routes is to buy a type rating in a B737 or A320 and then look into Air Macau, Tiger, or Air Asia.

Going to Asia as an F.O. is usually a dead end proposition outside of Cathay or Dragonair. Some of the Japanese contracts do upgrade. That said, they can be used as stepping stones to something better. A lot of guys have left right seat jobs at EVA, China Airlines, Air Macau, Tiger, et. al. to move to another carrier.

Really though, with your time and experience look at Fedex and UPS as the best options to have a good career and spend a lot of time in Asia. Until they hire again look at the second tier cargo airlines like Atlas, Southern, and Kalitta to name a few. Atlas and Southern were both recently hiring and Southern has contracts out of KL and Bangkok.

Singapore Cargo, Great Wall, and Jade Cargo are three more that have hired First Officers in the past.



Typhoonpilot

[purple head]

Cpttb- see your private messages regarding one question you asked.
The regulations are available in English from the CAAC web page.

[cptbb]

RE: "Cpttb- see your private messages regarding one question you asked.
The regulations are available in English from the CAAC web page."

Thanks for message. Please will you provide a link. I can only find partial info in English on the CAAC web page. :ugh:

[Captain Dart]

cptbb, the Porsches etc in the Cathay Pacific car park mainly belong to managers and a very small 'rump' of A-Scale crew still in the company. The yachts are mainly covered by housing allowance (as a substitute), which will not be paid to future pilots joining under the cadet scheme. The Aviator Bar in Tung Chung was mainly patronised by Oasis crew, and both that airline and the bar itself are long defunct.

As far as CX pilots being 'pompous pr%cks': of course, you don't sound like one yourself...much.

[169west]

Hi Captain Dart
any up-date on DEFO for 2011, CX ordered 6 new 777, no needs for pilot yet?thnks

[Captain Dart]

Hi 169, I'm not up with the recruiting scene, I'm just a cynical 'line shagger' (or 'pompous pr%ck if you are cptbb). The talk is of various bastardisations of a 'cadet' course only, depending on experience (so they don't have to pay you housing allowance in HKG). The fact that some of these new aircraft are replacements, age 65 retirement and mooted 'three crew to Europe' all conspire against a large recruitment drive.

If you do get in, you'll be doing a lot of flying around China, just like our friend cptbb.

Keep up with Fragrant Harbour fora and, of course, the company web site. Good luck.

[169west]

Thanks Dart,
I hope they underestimate the numbers so that they'll run a last minute recruitment. And I'll wake up all wet!

[2dabone]

Typhoonpilot: Thank you so much for the advice! Definitely something I can work with.

[innkeeper68]

i see several headhunters all trying to get you to work for the same airlines.....first, just which airline is better as an expat to work for in china on the A320? i see deer air, capital, shenzen, chengdu and june yao to name some.
which has treated the expat the best? which has the best streamlined interview process?

the second part: those head hunters. which are good and which are a buyer beware type?

[BusyB]

Captain Dart,

I can assure you that there are B-scale brand new Porches in the car-park as well:ok:

[Tommy Tilt]

Working in mainland China........

Below is taken from the Direct Personnel website re their recruitment for Air China Cargo:

"This is a 2 year contract based in Beijing, China. It is an excellent opportunity to work with a stable company for 2+ years where you will be treated well and welcomed in to the ACC team"

Here is what I have picked up via the airwaves in Hong Kong (even allowing that some of the vibe is true, it is cause for thought if not concern):

Air China Cargo work pattern is sent on Fridays via email for the following WEEK with frequent changes. Layover hotels are 2 or 3-star at best. Terms & Conditons of your agency contract are changed on arrival in Beijing. There are NO block days off. As far as foregin basing, ABSOLUTELY NOT as the base would require a Chinese manager pilot and none want to leave Beijing. The only chance to see family is if you buy a ticket home while on a short European layover or have them fly to Beijing. You will be paying full fare for the European ticket home as you will have had less than a weeks notice to buy the ticket. Having bought the ticket, your ACC trip can be changed or cancelled. ACC only provide 7 total tickets per year and these are not free. There are no Z tickets or any other agreements with other airlines. Medical care is unkonwn. Expat Captains can expect to be reported by the Chinese F/O's for ANY reason, be it on the flight or while on layover - do not complain about burnt toast!
Most of the foreign Captains at ACC, apart from some Koreans with no other options, are actively seeking other employment.
In any event, Air China Cargo will not release you via the CAAC to work with another airline in China. The local manager of the expat pilots has been described as a "vindictive office boy" with no sympathy for the needs of expat pilots whatsoever.

Why do you think there are so many ads to work in China?

It is true that aviaiton is expanding in China. But the ads for pilots are due more to the fact that nobody wants to tolerate their nonsense rather than due to the rate of expansion.

If you want a B744 rating, are single and have low expectations, ACC might be the place for you.

Regards,

Tommy

[PROBEUSMC]

Inkeeper68;
As far as airlines, I can only give a little info. The foreign based wide body guys at Air China seem to be pretty happy. I met 8 or 10, and only heard minor squabbling. They seemed to like it. I am with Capitol (former Deer), but haven't flown yet. There are 4 pilots that have been here 1.5-2 years. They seem to like it. You can click on my name and read my previous recent posts about what is going on here at the moment. It is not totally negative, but I don't think this is the place to come at the moment. Maybe 6-12 months when they get things sorted out. The pilots here claim to be treated well. The rest of the narrow body airlines in China - I have only heard mostly bad things, but most of that came from this forum (lots of whiners). There is one guy here that is 3 months behind me from June Yao. After his interview they told him he needed "additional sim training" that they would provide, at his cost. He came to Capitol. I have heard that same story from a few others, but only on this forum. I wish I knew more, and I wish others in China would post more so we get better info out there.

Agencies in China? There is plenty of info on agencies on this forum, but most of that is negative as well. At my last job, elsewhere, I worked for Rishworth, and will never make that mistake again. Lots of posts all over PPrune about them. VOR Holdings, and the other names they go under, also have a horrible rep. I dealt with them for about a week 2 years ago - total wankers. They are so bad they operate several websites under several names. Same scumbags.
There are lots of complaints about Wasinc on this forum. I dealt a little with the owner, and his local rep. They were by far the most knowledgable about what goes on in China, and very helpful. That is all of my experience with them. I am now with Parc, and very happy with them. I would recommend them to anyone. That is the sum total of everything I know about China!!! I have been here 4.5 months.

[On Final]

Dear Fellow pilots,

I want to warn you all to be very careful about the following agency..! VOR Company/China Aviation Recruitment or "Ted". Very BAD...!! Just to tell you don't even think about signing an invitation or contract to work in China under this agency..!!!!

This agency is the worst in China..! Just look at your paperwork before you sign..!

They have included a non circumvention for all work in China. Means that once you sign you can only work for them and know one else in China...! DONT SIGN THEIR CRAP..!!!

This agency will, abuse you and you will think it is better to work for a communist government than these folks..!

I have worked in China going on 3 years and please be careful, this agency is most abusive..!

Thanks,

On Final

[phoenixtv]

Well, some Chinese airlines will provide rather high salary and good beifit, however it seems not so many people, especially experienced pilots would like to work in China.
I'm not doing ad. here but my friend's company really needs many A320 captains and pay high. While there are not many people apply for them. I'm wondering why as well.

[JotaJota]

How much is the salary? Does he own the company? Nice!

Now being serious... Is the interview/screening process effectively organized? Not too much down time between sims, medicals and so on? Not a 10 to 14 day CAOS???

NOT in China baby... Paperwork and stamps is what they love. A planned, established, and methodical procedure? Hahaha! A REALISTIC medical? lol :}:}:}

THAT'S WHY!!!

Is 16k plus hours TT enough experience to work for your FRIEND? I am in!!!

Wonder Why Shortage! :E

[phoenixtv]

Well, I may not authorized to publish how much they pay but if you are interested and really qualified, please contact me and we could talk detailed. In my opinion, their salary is rather attractive and higher than Air Macau where there are a lot of foreign pilots.
As far as I know, they organized screening and every preparation work nicely.
The minimum requirment I know will be 500+hours on type 3000+hours total and ATPL holder

[n1_spindown]

wasinc not good... dishonest and will cheat you if you give them the opportunity. happened to me. met a few others like myself who have been been taken advantage of by wasinc. best to work directly for the company and don't go through a middle man who has no interest in doing anything for you but to take a cut on your paycheck very month.

don't worry about asking to read the contract - they don't follow it anyway...

you have been warned about wasinc...

[cptbb]

RE: don't worry about asking to read the contract - they don't follow it anyway...


DO READ THE CONTRACT....

[PROBEUSMC]

Pheoniextv;
I don't know where you are from, or what part of China, but from what I have learned I don't think your info is accurate.

For hiring of expats, I don't think "who you know" means anything. Every foreigner, for every airline in China, has to meet the exact same requirements. Different airlines have their screening process organized differently, some better (Air China) some worse (Capitol). I have only heard the details of a few airlines' screening process'.

The details of the screening is absolutely identical. The ATPL written is done a computer over secure internet, and is graded when you click "finish". No influence will help any pilot, expat or local. Hardest test I have taken in aviation.

The sim eval is similar for most airlines I believe. Some airlines you do your checkride during the screening, some after you arrive for work. They are all a ball-buster, and you will have either a CAAC examiner, or a local CAAC
designee.

The medical? Very difficult, good luck. I paid 400 dollars for an "astronaut physical" before I came. I didn't want to waste a week if I was going to fail the medical.

Each airline has a different relationship with the CAAC, and the CAAC has many different districts that make things easier or harder for the individual airlines.

The one constant is the standards for passing all the CAAC requirements. The week I screened, I passed "clean", one passed but had to get a stone "blasted" and then take another physical, the 3rd failed the medical. 2 out of 3 doesn't sound bad, but I think that is the highest I have heard. Another pilot a month behind me said 1 out of 13 passed his week. I don't know what the average success rate is, but I believe it is pretty low, much less than 50%, and probably below 25%, but that is just a guess.

There is no shortcut.

Air China and Hainan Airlines have a very organized 3 day screening. Capitol is just the opposite. Maybe you have to come China 3 times, probably at least 2.
Air China does all the post-screening paperwork before they offer you a job. If the offer comes, you should have a job. The rest, as far as I know, don't do that until you get here, and you may not pass. So far in 2010, only 2 pilots are online at Capitol, while 3 have been sent home, after they came here for a job. I should be #3 online, so that makes it 50% so far. Not good if you are one of the 3 sent home, after you quit your previous job.


The others I don't know.

This is a long thread, and there is some very good info earlier about the medical, sim, ATP written. If it were not for that, I wouldn't have gotten a job here. I would like to thank those pilots that took the time to write it down. I wish more pilots, from other airlines here, would post some of their experiences.

Good luck to all.

[TWN PPL]

Most of the foreign Captains at ACC, apart from some Koreans with no other options, are actively seeking other employment.

Perhaps the commute from Seoul to Beijing is only one hour away. They have all gone through the same door. Why do you come thousands of miles away from home for a job??? Go and seek something closer to home.

[Road Rash]

Hey n1_spindown I think I know you!....:ooh:

Yes, its true, Wasinc screwed a bunch of us a while back. Stay away from them!

Flying in China for a Chinese company is both challenging and rewarding on some levels.

I'm on my second company in Mainland China getting ready for my third contract. As others have said here, the contract is usually not worth the paper its printed on especially when they (your recruiter or employer) has decided to end it. And also it is possible to get released by one company to work for another, but it is very rare and doesn't happen often (as in my case).

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[Black eyed pea]

I have seen a few hired here in china...so good luck

[Black eyed pea]

Avoid june yao, Capital is improving Shentzen is OK.. Spring has just started hiring expats but they are at war with CAAC and their owns went on strike for poor conditions..I would wait and see on this one.

Agencies are all but the same, pick the best contract for you...in the end, even the agency wont be able to help.

Chinese Airlines will turn on you, interpretation of the contract will become a major issue.

Don"t volunteer any help or suggestions...take the low profile approach and smile.

Safety here is still a concept

[Road Rash]

I can't really speak for other airlines here in China, but I would say that Black eyed pea has hit the nail on the proverbial head as far as contracts are concerned.

:ok:

[PROBEUSMC]

Road Rash;
Why couldn't you have posted that a few days ago? I just violated "don't offer any suggestions". As a thank you (and it saved them tens of thousands of dollars), it cost me 2 weeks vacation. LOOOOOL

[Road Rash]

Sorry PROBEUSMC, don't post here often, as if my profile shows...:hmm:
I hope it works out for you, their is some good info here and some bad stuff as well.

I find that every one has a different experience here China, some love it (marry a local girl)... and some just go get hookers...

FYI... don't post while drinking (as in my case tonight)...hahahha:mad:

Cheers,
RR

[PROBEUSMC]

Road Rash;
No worries, it was worth the 2 weeks vacation. I personally know better than to violate that rule, even back in the "world". Good deeds rarely go unpunished. You would think that I would learn someday, but it hasn't happened so far. Every couple of years I have to open my mouth and step on my #$@%&.

In Guangzhou

[PROBEUSMC]

A bit more information.......
I finally finished my Line Check and applied for my Work visa which means I can legally be PIC in China. 5.5 months. A long time. Lots of frustration, confusion. The people at Capitol have been very friendly, but they are all new so the process took much longer than it should have. I have heard Spring Air is even worse, and in fact 2 guys are coming to Capitol now from Spring. Not sure of the details. I also met two Umuricans and a Taiwanese pilot in dispatch working for Hainan Airlines. One worked there for over 2 years, the other two trying to finish line training. 7.5 months and not finished yet. 300 hours!!!! Capitol has been much easier thus far.

If the China job works out, it seems like a good deal. For many, it doesn't work out. The Hainan guys said all the other pilots they started with did not make it thru. They didn't give me the number that failed.

I really don't think I would recommend China for most pilots unless:

You don't have a job.
You can somehow keep your current job, and come here and try.

The chances of coming here thinking you have a job, and then being sent away, jobless, seem too great. I was a Hybrid of the 2nd group, I had 2 jobs that I could return to within a few months.

There are a lot of "goods", especially at Capitol, if it works out.

1. Money
2. Treated like a Royal guest, everyday, by everyone at work. I have never
been treated better in my life. Ever.
3. Flying is easy, no all nighters, mostly day trips. New jets, decent
maintenance. No 7 hour ATC delays into La Garbage, although PEK is
getting there rapidly.
4. Did I mention the money and great treatment?

Getting the job is the hard part, and for many I think the risk is too great, in my opinion. When you come here you will probably go non-current (6 months) before you get online. If you get canned, which is a very high probability, your ability to get another contract job is severely hindered by your non-current status on the jet.

Just my observations on what it took to get here. I think this is going to work out very well for me, but I think it is mostly dumb luck. It could have just as easily went the other way.

Good luck

[flareflyer]

Hello gents,

I am looking at a job with air china.
It would be based in europe, as cpt on the A330.
Is there somebody already having this contract that can give me some infos?

Any info and heads up would be greatly apreciated..
PS: i would go through risworth aviation

Flare

[PROBEUSMC]

We were allowed to do line training, but could not operate as PIC until we had "made the application" for the work visa. They still have my passport. I should have the visa in a few days.

Sorry but I did not write the rules, or interpret them. TIC (This Is China). I am just doing what I was told.

[Fragglerock]

Hello,
Sorry to hear that you had such a hard time with your contract agency. Would you care to publish exactly what they did to change your opinion of them so drastically? You seemed really high on them when you started the post.

T

[A320_pilot]

PROBEUSMC,

How long did Capital took to process your background/security check? I have been waiting at my home country for my background checks to complete and it has been 6 weeks and no news! :ugh: Is no news suppose to be good news in China? lol

Anyone know how long it usually takes and the process involved?

[PROBEUSMC]

A320 Pilot:
I was told that the first step is to get your license and medical, which takes 1-2 weeks. That worked for us. After that, they can apply for the crew ID, which includes the background check. That is supposed to take another 3 weeks and I saw it take that long for the pilot 1 month ahead of us. It took us 4 months. That included a few weeks in which the local staff did not make the application, plus the CAAC coming down on all the airlines for a big safety audit.

The background check is not a no-brainer. They are going to check up on you. They actually call the FAA in the US, and I am sure they try to in other countries as well. It seems that the easier it is to check up on the, the better chance you have of passing. i.e. if you were working in your home country, for 1 airline in the last 10 years, the process is easy. If you are from a country with an unstable government, and you have been bouncing around the contract world for 10 years, it may not be so easy.

It is good your airline is doing this before you go. Air China does it that way as well. Most of the others do it after you come to China. You can't get into the the cockpit, even for line training, until you get your crew ID.

Big Disclaimer:
China is a big country. Each province is its own little country, and each district of the CAAC interprets the rules a bit different, from what I have heard. On top of that, each airline has a different working relationship with their local CAAC. What I said happened to us, may not be what happens to you at a different airline.

[A320_pilot]

Thanks PROBEUSMC!

Really appreciated your insights into the process. I didn't realise it can take upto 4 months just for the background checks! :sad: I will give my airline a call next week to see what's happening with it.

[dodo_bird]

Like most of the residents in this thread I am a pilot working in China. Like what you've read so far, we are treat well by the airlines. however I wouldn't call it a career but a Jobs that pays.

We are like commodities and the agency are brokers, after the ink dries on the contract. brokers get paid and that's that, any problems don't count on the brokers their many concern is getting their commission and getting more commodities.

You maybe wondering why this is happening. Quite simple like many unexplainable phenomenas in China. The labor law requires that expat pilot cannot be employed directly by an airlines must be through an employment agency. (yes we are dangerous)

There are more agencies starting up in China shop around for a better deal they all provide excellent service :} (you know what I mean).

PM if you require any background info on working in China.

[Shaman]

Guys,

I am 60 with plenty of PIC hours on the 737NG.

Some of the agencies stipulate "under 56" but others do not.

Do you know of any Chinese carriers who will take a 60 year old?

[samsnead]

A320 Pilot,

For UK and Australian candidate, you'd better contact your local CAA first befor Chinese airlines' requesting a CAAC validation for your license. FAA puts it clearly> Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/)

In CAAC, "background" will be OK as long as you have:
1.no criminal record
2.no incident/accident record plus recommendation letter endorsed by you current operator

Hope you did not skip any of them..

[A320_pilot]

Hi samsnead,

Thanks for the reply.

After waiting for 2 month, my security has been complete. :E My company requested letter from current company after the background check, maybe they have initally overlooked. Might just be slight different procedures depending which CAAC region you're located.

Happy New Year! :ok:

[PROBEUSMC]

The Chinese also like original documents, and seem to like to keep the originals, at least at the one I work for. This is definitely a cause for concern, especially when it comes to documents like recommendations from past employers. Try to get more than one original before you come here, because you might lose it in the process and have difficulty replacing it in the future.

[A320_pilot]

My company only wanted the originial copy of the No Criminal Record. They were happy to accept my letter from previous employer and No accident letter from your CAA scanned copies.

But I do agree with PROBEUSMC, the Chinese prefer original signed paperwork with pretty stamps.

[Colocolo]

My company requested letter from current company after the background check, maybe they have initally overlooked.


Nothing changes (or veeerry slooowwwly):

5 years ago we(applicants) were asked to bring; logbooks, background checks, letters of recommendation, proof of license, etc. All 3 of us had all these things in hand, and sometimes even with pretty seals;).

Then they started asking for the original College diploma, when that was furnished they asked for high school diplomas and certificates of EACH:uhoh: year completed......

At this point I told them I was going home!. Because I went to school in 7 different countries on 3 different continents and it would almost be impossible to have these documents (if they even existed!)and from 38 years ago no less. Hell some countries I lived in even changed their name since....:zzz:

ok ok back to the point... When told that I was leaving, they said:" Is all right to stay these things are not importan.t":ugh::{

Colocolo(still here in the middle kingdom)

[JotaJota]

Bring as many docs as u can get ur hands on... Here in China, the more the merrier!!!

HS diplomas to PHD's... The love paperwork....!

[Shaman]

flylikeaneagle,

Thank you for letting me know - looks like I have missed the boat..........

Shaman

[Huntair2]

Hi all.

I am looking at applying for a job in China but have heard rumours that South African passport holders can not be employed as air crew in China. Has anyone experienced this and is there any way of working round it.

I do not qualify for any other passport so that route is out.

Many thanks.

[A320_pilot]

Hi Huntair2,

Here is the link for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of PR China.

All the countries who have current relations with China are listed, South Africa is on the list since 1st Jan 1998, so the rumours is not true.

?????????? (http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/chn/pds/ziliao/2193/)
You'll need to translate the above page using ie Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/)

Good luck! :cool:

[ReverseFlight]

Huntair2, I can't speak for the Chinese authorities but you will find that the State owned airlines usually employ experienced foreign pilots for Captain positions while foreign F/Os may find jobs in privately owned carriers.

[Huntair2]

Thanks for the replies. I will contact the Airline and get them to confirm the passport issue. It does sound strange as the two countries have diplomatic relations.
Unless some clown in SA has recently offended someone in China.:ugh:

[WellFrackMe]

Afghanistan
Algeria
Azerbaijan
Bangladesh
Bosnia-Herzegoving
Chad
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[Immigrant]

Panama is missing..........:=

[yellowfin]

Guys, anybody has any info on which recruitment agency does hiring for Sichuan Airlines besides VOR/China aviation recruitment? Not willing to take my chances with them....PM me please...

Thanks in advances:ok:

[samsnead]

huntair2,

Frustrating. But the door is not closed yet, you need a strong hand in China to help you out in case alternative passport from another country is not an option.:sad:

[Huntair2]

Samsnead.
Thanks for the encouraging post. Can you be more specific.
Do you know of any strong hands?

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC Jade Cargo used to, and may still do , employ South Africans. Search for a thread about them and slip in a post.

[samsnead]

Huntair2,
If I were u, I would go through diplomatic way(RSA Embassy in Beijing?)
I knew a guy worked it out this way(joint efforts from agent/airline as well)..:E

[Harlem]

Hello, I am interested on the same info that post #128, about Sichuan Airlines and other recruitment agencies different than VOR Holdings. I will appreciate any comment about the airline and live there.

PM me if you prefer.

Thanks a lot.

[PROBEUSMC]

The question about South Africans, or any other nationality, might not be a rule as such. The CAAC does a very thorough background check, including calling your home country's civil authority. If they have 20 boxes to fill, and they can only fill 19, you don't pass. Maybe South Africa, for some reason, won't satisfy their security requirements.
They got burned in the past by bogus credentials, and they are hard over the other way now. Unfortunately in filtering out the chaff, they might be filtering out some real targets as well. And there is probably nothing that can be done about it. TIC (This IS China)

Good luck, however

[tom2713]

probeus,

once you work in china on a chinese visa, what are the conditions to leave the country (for leave, off days, etc) ?

I heard that middle eastern countries are "impris:mad:g" their staff by imposing exit regulations/permits on them.... Whats the story concerning that with China?

Cheers

[PROBEUSMC]

I can only speak for the airline I work for, but have heard nothing different from other pilots in China, as compared to the ME. You are a citizen of your home country, working on a work Visa in China. Your passport is your own. Break a law (including being involved in an aviation mishap) and all bets are off. That exists in all countries, however. Other than that, you are a foreigner, and free to leave at any time. It is far more difficult to stay here for most foreign workers, than to leave.

Overall: No BS in that regard, specifically like Qatar Airways where they hold your passport while "in country".

Goods in China?
China is welcoming to visitors, including foreigners working there. That is their culture.
Money is very good.
Economy is stable, for now. LOL
If you work for a good company, or just get lucky, you will be treated like a rock star.

Bads in China?
No english, bad air, gotta be careful what you eat and drink, gotta be careful about medical care. Same Same many places.

They fine you for QAR events. It is their law, and also applies to their local pilots, and if you get one, they also charge the last check airman that signed you off.

If you work for a bad airline, they might tell you that you require additional training, by them, at your cost. I have heard this happens a lot, but not at the airline I work for.

This is all I know, after 8 months.

[tom2713]

The last thing is that you wanna be stuck in the country you are working... like some countries in the pit.

Selling extra training is not the way.. Pass the screening or dont pass and leave it.

I do appreciate your reply, mate. I suppose you fly for C.A. based in CAN.
Any drivers there with you who have their contracts with dpi and/or parc?

[PROBEUSMC]

I am with Parc. There are no pilots at BCA with DPI. A few here are with Wasinc, and more with Rishworth. At the moment, Rishworth appears to behaving themselves in China, probably trying to get market share as they think the market here is going to be big. They are probably right as long as the economy here doesn't implode. Rishworth, being Rishworth, I am sure will eventually be true to themselves, which is basically white collar criminals.

The job here at BCA is really good, but they are having growing pains. Right now in CAN we are flying mostly Lucky Air flights out of Kunming. Both airlines are subsidiaries of Hainan.

Treatment here currently is awesome. I hope it stays that way.

[tom2713]

Thanks buddy.

The choice now is BCA or SHZ... Unfortunalety, I cant drop you a pm..

cheers

[JotaJota]

Probe, get your facts straight my friend. There were 2 DPI pilots at BCA for the past 2 years. One just finished his contract, the other one still here :ok:

Tom, do your homework... SHZ pilots work more days per month to get guarantee, plus there are a few other complaints from some of my "friends" there...

[Droste]

I have a question.

I applied to an airline recently and I was told to pay RMB10,000 for foreign licence verification fee. (Those who have applied should know which airline I am referring to)

May I know is this a norm for airlline to do this?

[PROBEUSMC]

JotaJota;
Sorry I thought all the Island guys were Rishworth or Wasinc. I have been watching the contract world for about 3 years, and didn't know much about DPI till about 1.5 years ago. All the FNG's are either Parc, Rishworth, or Wasinc, as of May this year. At least the ones that I know about.

For potential pilots:

As far as flying and days off, it is a moving target, and by the time a pilot screens, trains, and gets on line, it will be different. Maybe better, maybe worse. What we do now might be radically different than what we do 1 year from now.

[PROBEUSMC]

Droste:

Run, do not walk, to the door. Run from the airline. Run from the contract agency. Do not look back at either.

Chinese airlines are "sniping" pilots from other Chinese airlines, at great cost. They are paying the airline to "release" their license to work for them. I have heard this is between 1-2 million RMB, 130,000 to 260, 000 USD. They are paying expats 3-6 months to sit and do nothing to get them qualified to fly. The fee you are referring to is a scam. Maybe it is a company, or contract agency, trying to recoup some of their money. Or most probably, just a scam.
No foreign pilot pays a dime to work here. Unless of course they get a QAR. LOL

Run. As fast as you can.

[purple head]

Never in over 5 years of flying in the middle kingdom (at two companies) have i heard of a pilot paying money for the licence verification. When i applied to the UK CAA, i had to pay the UK CAAC about 14UK pounds, to get a letter saying my licence was real and giving the CAAC (china) permission to contact the CAA to check- upon giving the airline the receipt for 14 UK pounds the company gave me the money back as expenses. I paid nothing in China, the airline should and does pay for anything you need to do in China that is licence, training or visa related.

Which airline and agency is it? Name and shame!!

[JotaJota]

Probe... All good... 1 DPI boy left in the Island... 3 RAL, 1 Parc and 1 Was Inc...

Laterz

[Droste]

Radiotelephony licence is not required by CAAC. Am I right?Or do CAAC issue RT licence?

[purple head]

Correct. The CAAC don't have a stand alone RT licence.

[flyingdog00]

Panama has no diplomatic relationship with China, so Panama even is not on the BLACKLIST.

[Droste]

I have queries about applying China work visa. Do we really need to produce no criminal conviction record?For those who recently applied work visa, do you need to produce medical report in your home country prior for visa application?Next, if I were to enter China using Chinese business visa, can my visa be converted to work visa?

[stevieboy]

Hi Droste,

Yes, you must produce original copy of no criminal record certificate notarized by the Chinese Embassy in your country. Generally the VISA Medical is done in China after your arrival, but you'll have to check with the Chinese Embassy in your country.

Not sure about the business visa (F vsa), you'll need to check with your airline. :ok:

[Droste]

Yes, you must produce original copy of no criminal record certificate notarized by the Chinese Embassy in your country. Thank you for enlightening. May I know are they going to keep my original copy of no criminal record certificate?Generally the VISA Medical is done in China after your arrival, but you\'ll have to check with the Chinese Embassy in your country.The Chinese embassy requires work visa applicants to undergo visa medical. Therefore, I have to bare the medical cost (it is costly) and company is unlikely to foot the bill. Not sure about the business visa (F vsa), you\'ll need to check with your airline. I have heard that some people have done this (converting to Z visa) without leaving China.

[stevieboy]

Originally Posted by Droste
Thank you for enlightening. May I know are they going to keep my original copy of no criminal record certificate?

Yes, they kept mine!

The Chinese embassy requires work visa applicants to undergo visa medical. Therefore, I have to bare the medical cost (it is costly) and company is unlikely to foot the bill.

My Airline covered all cost associated with applying for VISA and VISA medical, if required. I was instructed to keep copies of the receipt for reimbursement when reporting for duty. :D

I have heard that some people have done this (converting to Z visa) without leaving China.

If you're already in China on a Business VISA (F Visa), you should be able to apply and covert to Z Visa without leaving the country. If you're currently abroad, then most likely you'll enter China on Z Visa.

[Delana]

My friend,

There is a airline company named Vietnam Airlines that offer a chance to first office up grade to captain at the end of the first contract. You can try it via parcaviation.com or rishworthaviation.com. Good lock

Just a pilot:O

[captain.weird]

Hi pilots/jobfighters in China,

Will you guys (and maybe womens) recommend foreigners to take their Flight Training in China? It is really booming business over there, so it is quite growing! Very fast too! If a foreigner wants to fly in China, for a major (is the goal of the student), will you guys recommend to take the flight training over here in China?

I did find a lot of Flight Training centrums over there, but de CAFUC sounded the most attractive to me! It was one of the academies showing a little bit of professionalism, and I have read that is 'the best' Flight Academy in China..

You guys can give some of the wannabes advice for China?

Thankss!!

[flyingdog00]

Query
I have a question.

I applied to an airline recently and I was told to pay RMB10,000 for foreign licence verification fee. (Those who have applied should know which airline I am referring to)

May I know is this a norm for airlline to do this?

This is a scam for sure!

[Droste]

Will you guys (and maybe womens) recommend foreigners to take their Flight Training in China?
Never ever never ever never ever....please...

If a foreigner wants to fly in China, for a major (is the goal of the student), will you guys recommend to take the flight training over here in China?
No no no....please...

It is really booming business over there, so it is quite growing! Very fast too!
I know China aviation in my finger tips.

There are lots of cute jets, but I can assure you that these expensive toys are going to display in some expensive hangars for the next 5-10years.

I did find a lot of Flight Training centrums over there, but de CAFUC sounded the most attractive to me! It was one of the academies showing a little bit of professionalism, and I have read that is 'the best' Flight Academy in China..
Hah...CAFUC?!

The entire sky is still controlled by the military. It will still be under control until further notice. There are rumours spreading for years and years that the low altitude will be available for flight training.

There are 1-2 schools conduct flight training, but the ab-initio recruitments are for the Mainlander Chinese not foreigners. The reason is, the airfield belongs to the Air Force.

[captain.weird]

I see, but if the flight training in China is so f*cked up.. why are those schools asking $80,000 for the flight training? I've read that CAFUC does the training in 4 years, is that right?

And do foreigners have a chance to roll-in to major airlines as F/O's? Or are we unqualified for those great Chinese population?

[Droste]

I see, but if the flight training in China is so f*cked up.. why are those schools asking $80,000 for the flight training?
If flight training in China is good, then why the major Chinese airlines are continuing sending their cadets overseas?

Believe me or not, the flight training schools in China are freaking slow! Inefficient at all.

Now, for the $80,000? It is a peanut to many Mainlander Chinese nowadays. They can easily come out with this sum of money.

You will be surprised, Mainlander Chinese students are flooding the expensive ivy league universities in United Kingdom and United States!

For your further info, There are schools (airlines affliated) in Australia and U.K. charging more than $80K.

And do foreigners have a chance to roll-in to major airlines as F/O's?
Major airlines, I am afraid not for low timer guys. For example, Shenzhen Airline has been recruiting pilots from South America. They flew there to do recruitment.

Unfortunately, small airlines are not properly set-up, they have no idea how to do recruitment, how to convert licence, how to advertise, how to process work visa & etc.

[captain.weird]

Thanks for the information Droste! I thought that China Southern send their cadets to France right, EPAG I thought..? But didn't they send their cadets to local schools in China?

$80k is nothing in Europe, I now flight training centers which want €100k+ for the flight training, because it is 'integrated', go f*ck yourself.

Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it! Maybe if I'm a workless captain on a day I maybe will apply for a position in China. Without a Chinese passport, forget to work as a F/O there.

[Droste]

@captain.weird, Chinese Airlines sent their cadets all over the place. E.g. United States, Australia and etc.
Those small airlines are looking for pilots! It does not matter you are rated or not. The bad side is, small airlines do not have the resource to convert foreign licence for foreigners.
However, if you miracly has a CAAC Pilot's licence, I bet you are almost one foot step into their cockpit.
Your next question may be, how to get a CAAC Pilot's licence, right?

[japanam]

@ Droste

I wouldn't agree with you 100%; well, at least not yet.

I have a CAAC Comm. Multi Inst with 2,500TT, 1,000 ME but not turbine or type. Sent e-mails to recruiters and airlines directly, but haven't heard too much from them. I'm thinking about taking your advice and going knocking on their doors to see if that turns heads.

We'll just have to see.

[captain.weird]

Hi Droste, haha yeah the CAAC License, and that license you only gain of a local flight school which the professionals like you sir are saying that it isn't worth it.

The reason for me to check out the possibility in China is, because China is growing very, very fast. It is really booming business what I've already said. In the next couple of years their will be cheap flight training in China, and it will explode. I think, and read some stuff, that China is going to produce a lot of pilots in the coming 20+ years. So I thought, getting in to a (major) Chinese airline is a very big step. But that step, is for a foreigner like me, not really logical. But is it possible, after learning the language, to get accepted at a major airline?

But Mandarin, sir I have very much respect for you, but that language is :ugh:. F*ck*n* hard!!

What would you sir recommend to do? NO CHINA?

[captain.weird]

Hi PanAm Lover,

You didn't do your homework. Read this thread. Yes, it is possible to fly for one of those single engined carriers (there a lot of), but it is hard because they can't really apply for a workvisa in China or something like that.. The majors can do that, but the local carriers not really. If you want to work for them you have to do all those things by yourself, they aren't doing that for you. I actually don't know the pay details. You have to go to China in yourself and check it out.. Maybe you can find something.. But I can guarantee you, over internet (e-mails) they won't come back to you, even the majors aren't!

[captain.weird]

If I have to be true: no. I'm sorry. But I've already said, you have to go to China and look by yourself. Ask here on the threads, ask people who work in China, send them a personal message work hard, do your homework and get that job dude!

[japanam]

Air China and other China-based airlines are eager to recruit experienced Korean pilots to meet surging air travel demand in the world's fastest growing economy, according to aviation industry officials Wednesday. The move is expected to further aggravate an already-dire pilot shortage here.

However, it appears that Korean Air, Asiana Airlines and low-cost carriers have yet to feel threatened by their Chinese rivals' move.

Industry officials said several Chinese airline firms held a job fair here recently to secure experienced pilots by offering high wages and generous benefits which may woo some of the pilots.

The starting annual salary for captains at the nation's two flagship carriers, Korean Air and Asiana, is about 120 million won (US$110,000). But Chinese airlines reportedly offered up to 170 million won, on top of housing subsidies and other benefits.

In a recent survey of 481 pilots at Korean Air conducted by their union, 72 percent, or 344, said they would quit and work for other airlines.

"It is no surprise that the majority of unionized pilots want to leave the nation's largest air carrier, given their low salary and poor benefits. Non-Korean pilots employed by Korean Air and pilots at foreign airlines make more money and receive more padded welfare packages," said Lee Kyu-nam, first vice president of the Korean Air Flight Crew Union.

Lee said there are many unionized Korean Air pilots interested in working for Chinese airlines because of this.

"Chinese airlines face a shortage of well-trained aviators as they put more airplanes into operation to meet rising air travel demand among Chinese tourists. Given the fact that most unionized Korean Air pilots are not happy with company management, I think many could quit and work for Chinese and other foreign carriers," he said.

An official at Asiana's Flight Crew Union echoed Lee's remarks, saying that many Asiana pilots have and will move to Chinese airlines.

"As far as I know, dozens of Asiana pilots have quit and now work for several Chinese carriers, including Air China, China Southern Airlines and Hainan Airlines. China is the world's black hole for all types of resources, including pilots," said the official, asking not to be named.

He then said Asiana management should come out with a range of measures to prevent its aviators from leaving, stressing it may face a severe pilot exodus.

However, Korean Air and Asiana managements have not taken the matter seriously, with both airlines saying that they will keep an eye on the situation.

"We have not detected any patterns that our pilots are moving to Chinese carriers en masse. But given China's booming aviation market, we will closely monitor the movements of Chinese airlines to check whether they attempt to recruit our manpower," a Korean Air spokesman said.

An Asiana spokesman also said the company will just monitor the situation closely for the time being. "It is true that some of our pilots have moved to Chinese carriers over the past few years. But it is nothing significant and there is no need to worry about it."

However, China's attempt to hire pilots currently working at domestic air carriers is expected to worsen an already-serious pilot shortage. Airlines here have been engaged in a fierce "recruitment war" for aviators as they face difficulty in finding qualified people to operate their growing number of aircraft.

Local airlines have added dozens of planes to their fleets over the past few years as more Koreans head overseas for leisure and other purposes.

Additionally, they are scheduled to put more aircraft into operation over the next few years in anticipation of continued growing travel demand, both inbound and outbound.

Korea Air currently has 2,550 pilots on its payroll, operating a fleet of 105 airplanes. It plans to hire 150 more this year as 18 new airplanes have been and will be introduced.

Asiana employs 1,176 pilots with a fleet of 74 aircraft and searches for well-trained pilots throughout the year.

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Droste]

Air China and other China-based airlines are eager to recruit experienced Korean pilots to meet surging air travel demand in the world's fastest growing economy, according to aviation industry officials Wednesday. The move is expected to further aggravate an already-dire pilot shortage here.
Hoho...

There are many jobless Korean pilots in Indonesia. If the China's market is that good, I do not see why these Koreans are still hunting high & low for jobs.

Local airlines have added dozens of planes to their fleets over the past few years as more Koreans head overseas for leisure and other purposes.
Really? 믿을 수없는

[Deerjet67]

Cheap flt training?.....In China?

[captain.weird]

Aarghh,, not really! More expensive as here in Europe! And they are doing it in 4 yrs from what I've read!

[elabayarde]

SOOOOOO NO ONE....has info for us 350TT...low hour guys!!!! Ay Ay Ay :)
(not that anything was expected) :D

[stevieboy]

SOOOOOO NO ONE....has info for us 350TT...low hour guys!!!! Ay Ay Ay


No info unless you're a Chinese national. ;)

[Axum]

Hi,
I expect a Chinese sim evaluation this month and wonder if I got any sim report about it. Should I bribe someone for it or not?

[de facto]

Axum,
Seriously?:rolleyes:

[Axum]

Maybe I was not clear enough:
As far as I know, if the sim is successful the examiner fill the report and forward it directly to the airline but will not give me a copy. It is the same situation at CAAC ATPL written test.
The question is what to do to have a copy of the report if I pass the sim.

[de facto]

If you are talking about the selection sim(first sim),then indeed the examinor may not let you know if you passed.In that case the agency will let you know,there are no forms as it is a selection sim.
When you pass this one,youll get to do the atpl written test,the results are immediate.
Then the CAAC sim chec for licence issue,you will be told if you pass or not after the sim,the examinor will fill in the form as it now considered an LPC.

No need to try to bribe,they make look at you and laugh if you try ,,,in the best case.

[Axum]

OK, thanks.
I am talking about the first sim, but the agency said it could be a CAAC sim check as well. Plus a friend of mine had passed the ATPL but only the airline had the report, later on he failed, applied for another airline who asked him to present this report.

[de facto]

You dont get the atpl written exam paper proof,its sent to the airline,therefore chose your airline carefully before starting all the process..

[Axum]

...or be ready to repeat the exam.

[On Final]

Fellow Pilots,

Here is the scoop regarding sim checks for China.

If you are just taking a new company sim evaluation with a company check pilot (not Caac) it is not so serious. If you fail, but show good Captain skills you still may be considered. If the company tells you no thanks, no big deal, just look for another airlines.

One the other hand, if it is a company check, evaluation with an official CAAC check it is very serious. Basically if you fail, and it is documented by the CAAC as far as I know you can NEVER work in China.

This is why pilots need to be careful which airline they go to work in China. Best to go where your friends are so they can put a good word in for you to smooth things out. If you go to some new start ups it is very riskey and I will stay away from that move.

If you are not sure if it is a company evauation you need to verify in advance what type of check you will take.

I hope this helps.

Good Luck,

On Final

[inbdspoilr]

Just heard about a new CAAC rule (China). If you fail a CAAC sim evaluation you will NOT be allowed to fly for ANY other Chinese carrier. I've heard this from more than one source.... anyone else heard this?

[Wineaux]

So, no 3 strike rule, no re-training? Just one mistake and you're done? Wow.

[Flying Phoenix]

That has always been the case - I don't know anyone working with us that failed the simulator evaluation. They will, however, let you sit the ATPL exam as many times as it takes but are less forgiving with the medical. Should you fail the medical you may have to undergo some intrusive examinations by the CAAC doctors in order to pass. That will be your decision at the end of the day.